Barbarian Strength = 1/Cultural Density: The solution to ICS!

[polypheus]

Define:
Cultural Density = Cultural Points/(# of cities)
Barbarian Strength = 1/Cultural Density
= (# of cities)/cultural points

Since barbarian strength is inversely proportional to cultural density, the more you ICS (thus lowering cultural density), the greater the barbarian strength. It forms a good, realistic counterbalance to ICS.

Here is what the ICSer will face using this model:

He builds as many low population, low or zero culture cities as possible. As he does this his cultural density drops further and further (therefore barbarian strength increases further and further). Therefore he will need to start building more and more military units to confront this ferocious barbarian assault (or risk being overrun).

Of course, military units have absolutely no bearing on cultural density and hence barbarian strength so the ICSer continues to have to replace military units in the field against the constant neverending relentless assault.

OTOH, of course military units cost money therefore inhibits the spending on cultural buildings.

The ICS spends all his time doing nothing but defending and falls further and further behind in development.Therefore he will have to increase his cultural density by either abandoning some cities or by suddenly changing production from military to cultural city improvements and risking being overrun (since the cultural points will take some time to accumulate).

This formulation does not make ICS impossible but it does make it extremely riskly and unlikely to work everytime (probably most times it will NOT work).

ICS is solved!

[Dauphin]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

At a glance it looks promising. Although what happens in parts of the world that are uninhabitated - they would have no cultural rating and be swarming with ever more barbarians that would descend upon you.

[Dr Strangelove]

Hmmm, interesting idea. I think I like it.

[Grumbold]

I follow the concept but the way I read your math makes it look like attacks will range in strength from 1 to a fraction of 1 so no barbarian attack will ever be any threat. How about:

Number of barbarians per attack = # cities - cultural strength.

BUT if we are going to have waves of 10+ barbarians then they need to come from somewhere sensible. Not a single mountain tile not in one of your cities ZoC. Once Empires are butted up against each other the threat should be from each other, not units springing like magic out of the ground. The talk of barbarian towns that can only appear in the unoccupied parts of the world reassure me here.

[polypheus]

Originally posted by Grumbold
I follow the concept but the way I read your math makes it look like attacks will range in strength from 1 to a fraction of 1 so no barbarian attack will ever be any threat. How about:

Number of barbarians per attack = # cities - cultural strength.

BUT if we are going to have waves of 10+ barbarians then they need to come from somewhere sensible. Not a single mountain tile not in one of your cities ZoC. Once Empires are butted up against each other the threat should be from each other, not units springing like magic out of the ground. The talk of barbarian towns that can only appear in the unoccupied parts of the world reassure me here.

Cultural Density = Culture Points/#cities
Barbarian Strength = 1/Cultural Density = #cities/cultural pts

Thus as you increase in the number of cities while keeping your cultural pts low, the barbarian strength continues to increase linearly with each new low culture city you found.

The math seems to be about right.

I also agree that barbarians should only come from uncivilized areas. If you are butted up against another empire, ICS is naturally blocked by that other empire.

[War4ever]

i don't like the idea. cultural rating..... why should it care how big a city is...... i realize that one big city has more culture than several small ones......

But, think of small cities as camps, and i think they should have some sort of solidarity if they are huddled together.

Enough camps together should be powerfull enough to hold off rogue barbarians

[polypheus]

Originally posted by War4ever
i don't like the idea. cultural rating..... why should it care how big a city is...... i realize that one big city has more culture than several small ones......

But, think of small cities as camps, and i think they should have some sort of solidarity if they are huddled together.

Enough camps together should be powerfull enough to hold off rogue barbarians

AFAIK, cultural points are accumulated based on how many marketplaces, libraries, universities, and wonders you have and also their age. I don't think it has anything to do with size of cities at all.

The formulas:
Cultural Density = Culture Points/#Cities
Barbarian Strength = 1/Cultural Density
= #Cities/Culture Points

say nothing about the size of cities directly only the number of cities and your total culture points.

It merely prevents you from building tons of undeveloped cities in order to claim as much land as possible and then developing them later on.

Instead it encourages you to expand and develop at a more balanced paced.

[JamesJKirk]

this is great stuff, I was actually wondering about this after reading a story on Chechnya and cruising the forums at the same time, I sure hope that culture isn't a flat rating throughout out empire. Thinking of this more, it would really suit a US expansion type scenario too, with "barbarians" attacking new settlements.

This makes me wonder one thing though, should it be possible to send "cultured" citizens from one culturally high city to a low one, and in effect bring its culture level up? Also, when you found a city in a far off place how many people emigrate there because they're nearby natives, how many are due to natural growth, and how many come from the homeland? Or is this being too complex?

Even if these questions aren't answered it looks wonderful, and I'm sure we all may be inadventently caught off guard when trying to overexpand, and I can't wait for that to (hopefully) happen

[War4ever]

Originally posted by polypheus


AFAIK, cultural points are accumulated based on how many marketplaces, libraries, universities, and wonders you have and also their age. I don't think it has anything to do with size of cities at all.

The formulas:
Cultural Density = Culture Points/#Cities
Barbarian Strength = 1/Cultural Density
= #Cities/Culture Points

say nothing about the size of cities directly only the number of cities and your total culture points.

It merely prevents you from building tons of undeveloped cities in order to claim as much land as possible and then developing them later on.

ah i was misinformed.... my mistake..... i agree with what your saying then so long as the ai doesn't cheat.... which is why ics sprung up in the first place i would imagine

Instead it encourages you to expand and develop at a more balanced paced.

[TechWins]

Polypheus, this is a brilliant idea. I love it. It really will help a lot for the fight against ICS.

The barbarians would come from there encampments. Which of course would come in the unhabitated parts of the world. The encampments you caused because of your low barbarian rating would go next to you and not anybody else. If you caused some barbarians and they saw another civ right next to them I hope they would still attack that other civ. Basically the barbarian reactions should stay the same as Civ2 it's just the place and number of barbarians that should be determined by your barbarian rating. This was to just help add the final touches to your system. Which is a great one.

[connorkimbro]

The way i'd see it working (and maybe this was your intent, but i didn't catch it)

is the barbarians units have the normal attack/defense strength, but instead get an attack bonus when attacking your units or cities. .
if another civ has a higher culture rating, then they wouldn't get that bonus.

overall though, very good, innovative idea. i wonder if it would be easy for firaxis to add?

[Urban Ranger]

Hmmm....

Since barbarian hordes don't appear that often anyway how much of a thread is this to ICS?

Now if you do something to the frequencies of the raids in additional to the strength of the units, you could have something there.

[connorkimbro]

given raging hoards, it seems like they occur quite often
but increasing their frequency isn't a bad addition either.

[Juggernaut]

what i dont really get is why the cultural rating should mean something to the barbarians. should they think; "hey, there´s a city with almost no universitys and temples. they got a city wall and lots a miltary, but no culture, so let´s attack it!". and get an heavy attack bonus? unrealistic...

the risk of ICS should be, as in reality, to leave your new, tiny cities unarmed with no military defense, making them easy prey for foreign civs and barbarians.
so:

- increase the amount of barbarians. make barbarians less willing to attack a stacked city.

- make foreign leaders more eager. if they discover a civ with no miltary units, they shouldn´t just accept a 200 gold gift and sign a peace treaty! it should be almost impossible to hold peace at that level, meaning the same moment you meet your first civ, your ICS has seen it´s last days...atleast if you want your civ to survive.


another way would be to introduce the fact that undeveloped cities with no city improvements dont last if they haven´t got ie. a marketplace. who wants to live in a city with no trading? no trading, no food...

the terrain could also work as a reducement. if you bild a city on a mountain tile, it shouldn´t be allowed to grow beyond the size of ie. 2 - if you dont build a marketplace and import trade to it. or maybe the city shouldn´t exist more than a few turns?
this would mean the player has to improve trading between the cities, and the ICS becomes heavily reduced.

[Zeevico]

the fact that it is unrealistic is besides the point. It effectively combats ICS, and therefore recieves my thumbs up. In case you haven't noticed, Civilization is meant to be more fun than realistic, and without ICS, it would be much more fun and realistic as well, because, realstically, ICS style civs would get the **** beaten out of them in real life.