Whats your choice of any civ-specific unit?

[Theben]

Originally posted by ancient

First off, im a communist, secondly United States and Isreal have never fought a war with Russia or the Soviet Union.

x2 check your history, comrade, the U.S. invaded the Soviet Union in 1919.

So I have no idea where you got this crazy idea about migs coming out to fight. And in the korean war Migs werent used (as far as i know, i dont think they were even around yet) and in the vietnam war they werent used either.

The MiG is an old line of aircraft, like the F series. I'm pretty sure the Vietnamese were flying MiG-19/21's back then.

And yes I shouldn't have called him an idiot (but migs scoring a zero? com'on) but you may have too much pride in your nation.

He may have a lot of pride in our nation, but he is an ex(?)-soldier. Besides, I have a lot of pride in my nation too...but not its leaders or corporations. In its ideals and people.

Communism isn't the United States Peoples enemy,...

While I agree with you generally, I really don't care to see yet another communism-capitalism debate outside of the off-topic forums. Please, kill it now.

[ancient]

Originally posted by Theben
x2 check your history, comrade, the U.S. invaded the Soviet Union in 1919.

really? i wasnt aware.. your right though this isnt the place for that.. i stop argueing about that.. the vietnams didnt use the migs i am talking about.. and even the ones they had their wasnt many of them

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Theben
The MiG is an old line of aircraft, like the F series. I'm pretty sure the Vietnamese were flying MiG-19/21's back then.

Mig-1 1940
Mig-3 1941
Mig-5 1942
Mig-7 1944
Mig-9 1946 First Mig to have jet eng.
Mig-13 1944
Mig-15 1948 First Mig to fight against the NATO forces in Korea War. (The New British PM of 1945/46 gave the Russian a Rolls Royce jet engine to show was a nice guy he was. The American Gov. protested. I think he was defeated next election) This jet did OK against our early Jet and Non jet aircraft, however the American sent the F-86 to Korea and at the end of the war we had a 15 to 1 kill ratio.
Mig-17 1951 Did not fight in Korea, but did fight in Vietnam.
Mig-19 1953 Did fight in Vietnam
Mig-21 1955 Did fight in Vietnam I believe the US at the end of the war had a 12.5 to 1 kill ratio. The Mig-21 is the world leading aircraft in number built.
Mig-23 1967
Mig-25 1964 Was built to fight the American B-70, YF-12 (SR-71) and the SR-71. The B-70 was cancel, the F-12 became the SR-71 and the Mig-25 tried many times to shot down a SR-71 and failed each time.
Mig-27 1973 A ground attack version of the Mig-23
Mig-29 1977 Has never shot down a American F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18. Granted we the U.S./Israeli have only fought this plane as flown by third world country.
Mig-31 1975 A remake of the Mig-25 to make it a better interceptor w/two seat.
Mig-?? 200? No info yet. We will have to wait.
In Korea the North pilot were very bad, then we fought some better pilot. Ground control hear them and said they were Chinese, and later some Russian pilot. Some of our guys got close enough to see the other pilots and they were not Oriental
The same in Vietnam. First only Vietnam, then some Chinese and later some Russian pilots. With radio intercept (they tried to say they were not there but) we knew they were flying for North Vietnam.

He may have a lot of pride in our nation, but he is an ex(?)-soldier. Besides, I have a lot of pride in my nation too...but not its leaders or corporations. In its ideals and people.

U.S. Navy Feb., 1962 to Mar., 1965. Mare Island Naval Shipyard Aug., 1965 to Nov., 1995. 33 years 4 mos. 9 days.
I will guess that neither of you are even that old yet.
Do I trust some of the people in Gov? No. But it is still the best Gov. on this planet, yes, until a better Gov. comes along.

[Adm.Naismith]

More OT about planes and Early stgrong units always better

The wave of Off Topic about planes let me stunned for a while, but now I must try to help someone (usually I try to help people that don't want help about their knowledge, ending in bad mood, but it's a hard job and someone must do it ).

If you aren't interested, please skip to --- end of OT part of message.

Start of OT ------------------------------------------------
Lot of people mention MiG as it is a single model aircraft. Do you call a car only as "Ford"?
Are you speaking about "Model T" or "Mondeo"? I bet there are difference!

So, MiG 15 did lot of succesful dogfight during Korean war: last time I red about that conflict on a Italian military aircraft magazine, reproducing recently uncovered USSR documents (declassified), they where driven mostly by Korean pilot, but also from Russian "trainer" under false identity and Chinese.

They fought very well and only the Sabre and more extensive training let the USA pilot to shift back the balance.

The Vietnam war was more a fight between USA planes and Vietnam (but made in USSR) and SAM / Flak.
MiG 17 and 19 played a role, and once more proven that the "all missiles doctrine", developed by USA to privilege long range missile against cannon dogfight was not a full success. The very good F4 Phantom II started without a cannon, but successive version added a 20mm Vulcan.

From that experience the USAF decided to develop a light/middle plane very good in doghfighting: the winner was the F16 Fighting Falcon (also nicknamed Viper), while a modified model of the looser YF17 become the F18 Hornet for the Navy.

The F14 Tomcat was developed to replace the F4 Phantom as a long range defensive arm of the fleet, with its special long range Phoenix missiles. It was specialized to intercept USSR bombers out of the range of their Air to Surface missiles (also nuclear), developed to attack USA Aircraft carriers. Let's them alone, for now.

USSR MiG 25 Foxbat, now renamed as MiG 31 Foxhound, was developed as a Mach 3 interceptor to counteract the USA project of Mach 3 bomber B70 Walkyrie. When the bomber project was cancelled the fighter MiG 25 was used for high speed/high altitude reconnaince, as USA did with SR71 Blackbird, a derivate from a former A12 - CIA reconnaince model and prototype YF 12 fighter model.

F15 Eagle, with its great excess of power, was developed to jump as high and fast as possible to intercept incoming supersonic USSR bombers. Great plane, BTW. The only one that has been tested as a platform for launching a missile able to kill a low orbiting satellite!

MiG 29 is a good plane, with a good plane-weapons integration: it use the first standard pilot helmet able to let the pilot aim short range missiles by looking at enemy.
BTW, it's not a copy of F16, by no way. USA has not the exclusive of good plane project

The Military Air force of former East Germany used MiG 29, with lot of older MiG21 (probably the must succesful fighter of the world, as a best seller).
It has some defect (high maintenance costs, short life of engines, etc.) but Air force of unified Germany keep them in use because of good performance and lot of request from others NATO ally for dissimilar training missions (they use them as enemy in simulate dogfight).

Shukoi SU27 Flanker and its derivate versions is currently more considered for its greater fly envelope (greater performance) but it's much more expensive. It's selled in China and India, to name just two.
---------------------------------------------------- end of OT


We don't know anything about unique units, so it's hard to chose one best. It's Firaxis job to do a good balancing, or any game will be played with (stronger) same Civ again and again.

I only agree with someone who said on others thread that any early advantage is a greater advantage in usual Civ game model.
If Rise and Fall aren't implemented, or similar limits to Big (empire) Always Better, I'll prefer any early unique unit, where units will be few and a better units can really make the difference.

Once my empire is large enough mine production of common tanks should be able to cope with any special tank AI player will throw at me

[Urban Ranger]

[off-topic]
The Soviet jet fighters tend to have better aerodynamics and the US ones better electronics. None of the US planes can do a "Super Cobra" move like the Su-27 can.
[/off-topic]

The best civ-specific unit is probably the Mongol's. Conquered a large part of Europe with just 20,000 men.

[Mokael]

yeah, we need to know about the units. For now I'll go with samurai - can't go wrong with samurai!




Mok

[KrazyHorse]

As nice as it is to hear how much you like your country, Joseph, you sometimes go overboards. The best government in the world? Try again. You're so heavy-handed on that good old-style patriotism that you've made me, for one, just a little bit nauseous at times. I know, I know, the US could invade Canada any time it wanted. Blah, blah, blah...

[Adm.Naismith]

The wave of Off Topic about planes let me stunned for a while, but now I must try to help someone (usually I try to help people that don't want help about their knowledge, ending in bad mood, but it's a hard job and someone must do it ).

Sorry, it seems that for a list of coincidence my previus post has been sent after Joseph one, while I haven't still noticed and read it.

It wasn't my point to object anything about his detailed list of notice about Mig and my joke about bad mood and knowledge is not referred to him (and not to anyone in particular, it has been only a not succesful joke about me and my collegues at work: never mind).

Sorry again for my unnecessary OT part of the previus post.

[Fidel]

admiral, your post was great. i really enjoyed reading it...

[joseph1944]

Adm.Naismith
Prince
Milano - Italy

Oct 1999
Thank you.