Whats the coolest civilization in Civ 3?

[Rollo_CH]

American ignorance is widely known in Europe and mostly a "laughing stock". As are European ignorance towards the "New World" too. I think its pointless to discuss who's right and who's not, there's always, at least two sides of the story. New facts are being put forward all the time about history. For instance: the Soviets were always regarded as amongst the "good guy's" in our books, until the fall of communism...

Btw, Sid Meier is american right?

paiktis22,
There's alot of sides in the Balkans too...what is true to Greeks and Serbs aren't necessarily so for Bugarians and Makedonians...i'm not taking sides, but just a reflection to the ever present "Balkan powder-magazine"

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
My question is this: Of all the great WWII battles, which resulted in the greatest number of German divisions being destroyed or put out of action for more than 6 months?

I believe it is Operation Bagration, destruction of Army Group Center, Summer 1944 in Belorussia.

As for the above historical lectures given to us by our US colleagues, I am really not surprised. During my studies in the UK, I've met an incredible number of Americans who genuinely believed that it is them who really won the war. It is 50 years of Hollywood which portrayed their allies as stiff upper lip schoolboys and drunken ruffians (guess who is who) and their enemies as total imbeciles who either ran around like buttmonkeys or spoke English with an idiotic accent and tended to get killed like flies by Telly Savalas and Clint Eastwood.

(I really have a bit more of a work to do today so I have to shorten this).

I understand your self-congratulating tone when it comes to operations in Iraq and over Serbia. You managed to avoid land battles and resorted to prolonged air campaign. THe other side did not have S-300 so you pretty much did what you wanted. Well, congratulations on that, you won.

As for KLA and Albanians, I will laugh my face off when they start kidnapping your soldiers. You walked into Beirut like that and ended up with 200+ marines blown to bits. Obviously you did not learn the lesson NOT to mess with barbarians. Their threshold of pain is much higher. (actually, I wonder if it is Milosevic out of jail who now masterminds the clashes in Macedonia? ummmm, lemme see, might be someone else....who, i wonder?)

Which brings me to the previous point. German and Russian tolerance to losses in the WW2 was so high that your losses look insignificant. Do not get me wrong, you definitely were smarter and, thanks in part to your favourable geographical position, you are who you are today also because of the WW2. But to put your fight against German reservists who were underage or over 50 (mostly) to bloodbaths on the Eastern Front is a joke. Paris, for Christ's sake, was surrendered by phone, when it could suck in 2 million people in street fights. Meanwhile, every Polish village was razed to the ground and the whole of Western USSR was scorched earth.

Whenever Americans dared to disembark on a Pacific island, they took a beating. WW2 was fought in 2 distinct theatres and the US were clearly not the masters in the main, continental one. Yes, sea and sky were yours....

Finally, note on your entry into WW1 - try distinguishing causes from excuses. Nation does not go to war over a sunken boat, it does so only when its vital interestse.g. repayment of loans) are threatened.

[Sientifix]

Patton 3rd Army does more damage to Germans forces than any other army in northern Europe.

In Europe, Americans did not the hardest battles. When Russians were 1vs1.8 in Stalingrad and 1vs2 at Kursk, Americans were 1vs12 at El-Alamein, 1vs25 in Normandie, and 1vs7 in the Ardennes. That's why they did a lot of damage to German's army... Russians did not have this luck.

[Martinus]

Oh, and I don't believe creation and evolution should be taught side-by-side, no, evolution should be taken out. Both start with biases, both are biased. I can see this turning into a full scale Evolution vrs Creation debate right here. Lets just say, I opened up my computer and I didn't see its builder anywhere in there. No one made it! It must have evolved from a lower form of appliance, mabey a calculator, and so on untill the primordial toaster.

Without going into the Evolution vs Creation debate here (because, what's the point), frankly I can not conceive how the hell a person who can (I assume) turn on his PC and type, can think anything like this. It is really amazing.

[Sientifix]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Sientifix, (J'etais vraiment enchante par Paris quand je l'ai visitee )

Oui, c'est vraiment une belle ville. J'y suis depuis 1 an environ.
J'aime bien Athènes aussi (un peu trop chaud peut-être). Et votre cuisine est bonne ( c'est un français qui le dit )!

The Panzers error is nothing! Have you seen the portrait of Alexander the Great? He looks totally constipated!

Yes, you're right! And me who thought he died of a more noble illness!

BTW, I think french will have «musketeers» as their special unit and the leader will (definitely) be Joan d'Arc.

I think Napoleon is better in this part. He is the one who saved the France when it was attacked by all the European countries (he didn't need to declare a single war, others did it for him ). And he made our civil code, created lycee (college i think), polytechnic school and some other things like that. ...And he killed half of the male population of France in Russia. Hmmm... well, in fact Jeanne d'Arc is more photogenic I believe

[JMarks]

Originally posted by LaRusso
Very nice
So when it breaks down you call for a priest?

No, they're called computer gurus. Same thing with cars, there are those mystic car mechanics.

Without going into the Evolution vs Creation debate here (because, what's the point), frankly I can not conceive how the hell a person who can (I assume) turn on his PC and type, can think anything like this. It is really amazing.

Martinus, that was exactly my point. Congragulation.

I understand your self-congratulating tone when it comes to operations in Iraq and over Serbia. You managed to avoid land battles and resorted to prolonged air campaign. THe other side did not have S-300 so you pretty much did what you wanted. Well, congratulations on that, you won.

Larusso, you understand inadequatly. I don't know what most other people think, but we had no right to be in Serbia, mabey not even Iraq. Don't know about the later, that was before my time. If you Europeans want to keep peace among yourselves fine, but please, stop assuming we'll jump in every time.

Oh, and not to say we won WW2 by ourselves, no, I don't think that was the intent of either myself of Joseph (there I go, assuming also!). Rather, we were of great value, who knows what would have happened if we didn't join, or for that matter supply Britain. Mabey Russia still would have steamrolled Germany (everyone forgets to never get involved in a land war in Europe), mabey not, its all speculation.

Ioanes

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by JMarks




If you Europeans want to keep peace among yourselves fine, but please, stop assuming we'll jump in every time.


Ioanes

I think that the USA never involves itself in any conflict unless there is something they will gain, I think the same of any other country. So I (as european) expect to to see the USA "jumping" a lot all over the world. If W has been convinced to keep the troops in Bosnia, I am sure that it will not be because he has been moved by the suffering over there, but because there is some people who convinced him that in the long term it will be beneficial for the USA to be all around (for business). I do not think that this attitude of the USA Presidents is good or bad, it is their job, and they only have to answer the people that elected them, would they be the big business with the big bucks (as in the rest of the world, but in a lesser degree) or the people who voted.

[KrazyHorse]

Hey Joe. Add up the numbers. For WWI, even discounting the Russians as sore losers, you can see that the total American KIA comes to just about 2% of the total. The total American contribution in casualties comes to 3%. In WWII, over 80% of German casualties were on the Eastern Front. Also, to answer your question, Strangelove, IIRC the battle of Stalingrad cost the Germans over a million men. I'm not sure if this was the biggest one, but the Soviets managed to capture 17 generals (again, IIRC). Also, I think you're right; the Americans had about 15-20% of the Allies' armed forces by the end of the war. My point is that they showed up too late to make that much of a difference.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by JMarks
LaRusso, you understand inadequately. I don't know what most other people think, but we had no right to be in Serbia, maybe not even Iraq. Don't know about the later, that was before my time. If you Europeans want to keep peace among yourselves fine, but please, stop assuming we'll jump in every time.

I will admit that sometimes I do want the US to be the World policeman.

Oh, and not to say we won WW2 by ourselves, no, I don't think that was the intent of either myself of Joseph (there I go, assuming also!). Rather, we were of great value, who knows what would have happened if we didn't join, or for that matter supply Britain. Maybe Russia still would have steamroller Germany (everyone forgets to never get involved in a land war in Europe), maybe not, its all speculation.

You are correct in assuming.
Actually we the US starting fighting the Japanese and Germans long before declaring war. The Flying Tigers in China were American. The Eagle Squadron in England was American. Plus some/lots? of American when North and join the Canadian AF to fight in Europe. We sent tons and tons of supplies to both Russia and England before we started to fight. Just ask any German Sub member from WW II and he will tell you how many American Ships they sunk before we declared war. For that matter just ask any of your Grand Fathers to see if we did anything or not. We gave the British 50 destroyer and gave the Russian a whole bunch of our P-39 and P-63 for ground attack. There are a few picture of the Red Star on our P-39/63. Normally the Soviet did not show those picture because Stalin did not want his people to know that we the US was helping him.
Some of the people who post here somehow think the Soviet Union was a great Country, maybe you should talk to some of the people who lived under Communist Gov. Ask a person of East Germany or East Berlin how it was. Or ask someone from Hungary, Czech and Slovak Rep. how it was in 1956 and 1968.
We just had this girl at our school who came from China two years ago. When she is asked today if she would go back to China, she said "NO WAY". We must be doing something right.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Hey Joe. Add up the numbers. For WWI, even discounting the Russians as sore losers, you can see that the total American KIA comes to just about 2% of the total. The total American contribution in casualties comes to 3%. In WWII, over 80% of German casualties were on the Eastern Front.

Not my fault Hitler started a war on the eastern front.

General George S. Patton made a speech one day and said "this idea that dieding for your country is a great thing is a bunch of crap. You make the other dumb son-of-b---- died for his country, shot him in his belly" the speech went on, I would have to reread his book to state all of it. So one should make the other guy died and not him self.

[Sientifix]

Originally posted by joseph1944
We just had this girl at our school who came from China two years ago. When she is asked today if she would go back to China, she said "NO WAY". We must be doing something right.

China is something horrible now: authoritaric governement and a hard neo-liberal(?) economic : the worst of both system!

[KrazyHorse]

Joseph, you're mixing up a few ideas here. Firstly, you're assuming that people who think the USSR contributed most of the Allied effort also think that the system of government in the USSR was laudable. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Soviet government under Stalin was a reign of terror. The NKVD shot anyone it thought was a defeatist, and the man with the moustache demanded unquestioning support. This does not discount the enormous effort sustained by the Soviet people and Army. You're also confusing the actual prosecution of a war and the production of arms for a war. The Americans produced a slightly larger amount of war materials than the Soviets did, but the Soviets did much more of the actual fighting. If the USSR had not bled the Axis white on the Eastern front, there would have been no way for the western powers to invade Europe in 1943 (or 1944) without sustaining many more casualties than they were willing to do. Note that Soviet war manufacturing was accomplished even while much of the country lay under the Nazis, while American production occurred in a land untouched by the destruction. Also note that war with the USSR was actually declared after war with the US, so that 80% was accomplished in a shorter period than the 10% or so inflicted by the US. Finally, you're assuming that the government in China today has something to do with the government of the USSR. The Chinese take on communism is a bizarre combination of an extremely harsh authoritarian regime and "liberalization" on the economic front which more resembles fascism than any sane form of collectivism. This being said, I am a small-"d" democrat and a small-"s" socialist, but I do my best to remain objective when discussing facts, as you are so obviously strained to do.

[Twig]

Originally posted by joseph1944

I said this a long time ago, America is a country and not a Civs. Because All of us have ancestry somewhere else. Think about this for a moment, if your ancestry is North Africa or most of Europe, not all, but most of Europe you are part Roman. So if all of us part Roman got together today (2001), we might still be one of the larges Civs in the World. Maybe number 3 right behind the Chinese, and Indian of India.

PMJI, but I respectfully submit that America IS INDEED a civilization. This opinion comes from an American who genetically is German (I love beer!), Belgium (see German), English (I have an attitude.), Scotch (I own a kilt.), Irish (I am an alcoholic.), Crotian (As a veteran, I have been in battle [but won].), Indian (Well, nothing snappy to put here - I hate currey...), and Chippawa (again, refer to firewater-related comments...)

The bottom line is that, like most other American mutts, my ethic background has congealed into a sum that is something totally different than the collection of my ethnic parts. The American melting pot is DEFINATELY unique from the sociology of its sources.

...and if you don't believe me, WHY DOES THE REST OF THE WORLD WANT TO COPY TO US?! I refer to the overseas demand for blue jeans, countries who were in a state of anarchy or dictatorship or communism now becoming democracies, Korea basing a major chunk of their economy on basketball shoes, rock & roll pervading the airwaves everywhere, American soap operas being broadcast worldwide - and so on...

Imitation is indeed the sincerest form of flattery. Considering that civilizations everywhere are now imitating the States, I reckon that clearly qualifies us as a civilization...

Regards, Twig

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by joseph1944
New World Dictionary

Civilization: 1. A civilizing or becoming civilized. 2. The condition of being civilized; social organization of a high order. 3. The total culture of a people, nation, period, etc. 4. The countries and peoples considered to have reached a high stage of social and cultural development. 5. Intellectual and cultural refinement. 6. The comforts of civilized life.

After reading the above, I now believe the United State is a Civilization.

I don't know if you saw this post after the first one.

On the war, all I'm saying is that if the Allied did not invade North Africa, or Italy, or Northern Europe, Hitler could have sent several more division to Russia and maybe would have beaten the Russian. Remember this, the Russian thought the Germans were going to win in Stalingrad for a time. The Russian started to move material and people across the River to set new defenses.
And Old Men and little boys thing. Hitler kept, one or two of his crack "SS Panzer Group" in northern Europe to fight the Allied after they landed. The Western Allies did not see old men and boys until after the battle of the Bulge. And the troops in Italy were not old men and boys. They were some of Germany best divisions. That is why it took until 1945 to win in Italy.
Another big help for all of the Allied was the British and American 24 hours per day bombing campaigns. That did slow down Germany production of war material. Without the bombing Germany would have product a lot more tanks, plane, and other war material. Lucking for all of the Allied, Hitler slow down the Production of the Me-262. A few were shot down by the American P-51, but only a few. The bombing did stop the German V-2 New York missile/rocket. With that ICBM in place, they could have hit Leningrad, Moscow, New York, Washington, Stalingrad, etc.
I was going to quit but just remember. The Russian ran into some of your German boys at Warsaw. And those boys kept the Russian from crossing the River for several weeks. I saw this on the History Channel. In fact both the Russian and Western Allies finally had to just shoot those boys because they would not surrender even if only one boy remained.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by JMarks
Ooh, below the belt. Do you think I agree with that stuff? That was stupid and uncivilized, but hey, mankind is stupid and uncivilized. No one is in the exception, its just harder to see when they don't have power. Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals corruption. Central Plains of Europe? I'm sure you know plenty of artrocities that happend thousands of years before Hitler and Stalin. See previous statement.Ioanes

J; go back and read his remarks. He said it was the European that came to American and kill or relocated the Indian of the East Coast area. Later it was the 3rd, 4th, and 5th generation of American that moved west and then kill or relocated the Plains, and West Coast Indians.
Before 1776, America was still mostly British Colony.