Whats the coolest civilization in Civ 3?

[Fidel]

dank u well

[JMarks]

Originally posted by LaRusso


Saved our ass?
In the WW1 you intervened on the side of your debtors to prevent them defaulting on war loans.
In WW2 you came when Russians were already in Poland and probably shortened war for a month or so. Let's leave the strategic bombing out of this....

Of course, silly me, America had absolutly nothing to do with the conclusion of Either World War and could have easily stayed out of it had we kept our heads about it. How I wish that were true, Thomas Jefferson told us to stay out of European polotics, and look where we are now. 'Peace' keeping missions, and garisons where we have no right to be. Can't you keep your own peace? (sorry, that last portion is off topic)

Now, look at your location. Sioux Falls. How come? Let's suppose that a tribe (nation, civ, whatever) of Siouxes lived there, and hey - here comes a cream of European crop, armed to the teeth, zenith of the Western Civilization. 100 years before Stalin and Hitler, you had slavery and massacred Native Americans en masse.

Ooh, below the belt. Do you think I agree with that stuff? That was stupid and uncivilized, but hey, mankind is stupid and uncivilized. No one is in the exception, its just harder to see when they don't have power. Power doesn't corrupt, it reveals corruption. Central Plains of Europe? I'm sure you know plenty of artrocities that happend thousands of years before Hitler and Stalin. See previous statement.

Don't bring Darwin into this, as I understand, half of America has to listen to creationist theories in the school so that the Believers are not offended.
Let's face it, you're Europeans squared, our best and worst characteristics simply maxed out.

Darwin has much to do with it. Now Europeans and Americans had a scientific reason to subjugate the world. They were the 'superior' race, the most highly evolved. No longer did they have to use lies from blasphamus preachers who didn't give a rip what the bible actually said. Evolution, the modern religion where you can pick your god, man or nature, your choice.

You understand incorrectly. There has been one school district in Nebraska that let 'creationism' to be taught alongside evolution, and that was contraversial. Still is. Nebraska isn't half the nation by the way. Shows that European knowledge of what goes on in America is probably as bad as Americans knowledge as to what goes on in Europe. Hey, didn't you guys have a lot of protests when 'W' came over? I heard you guys thought he was a moron, stupid, etc. Don't listen to our news persons or late night talkshow hosts, they hate him with a vengance.

Oh, and I don't believe creation and evolution should be taught side-by-side, no, evolution should be taken out. Both start with biases, both are biased. I can see this turning into a full scale Evolution vrs Creation debate right here. Lets just say, I opened up my computer and I didn't see its builder anywhere in there. No one made it! It must have evolved from a lower form of appliance, mabey a calculator, and so on untill the primordial toaster.

Ioanes

[Fidel]

Very nice
So when it breaks down you call for a priest?

Anyway,

What i wrote was a bunch of common perceptions of America, plains of Central Europe or not. To say that America represents a pinnace of Western democratic civilization is really over the top. It is an economic powerhouse, oligarchic plutocracy with a figurehead presidential system and an incredibly sophisticated financial market that keeps it on top of the world economic system.

It does not save asses for the simple reason that democracies do that fairly rarely , usually waving a purse (example; UK during 18-19 century, Netherlands for some time before that).

I do not think that it will loose its no. 1 place any time soon but I am sure that there never was a world master more disinterested in the world affairs and with a population so prosperous and so self-centered. I know we all need each other ( we need your money, you need Rome and Paris to take pictures in) but I really do have a feeling that, sadly, Earth has exacly the masters it deserves.

Well, hope there is a good MP in Civ3 - I will show you what kind of masters Earth actually needs

[KrazyHorse]

J Marks, by the time WWI was over, the US's contribution to Allied strength came up to somewhat less than ten percent of the total. Then, after the war finished, it forced its allies to pay their war debts in full, and tried to let their foes off the hook completely (not that those foes were completely responsible for the war). In WWII, the biggest contribution of the Americans was in the Pacific. First the British, with their stubborness causing the Axis to constantly be threatened from the west and from the south, and next the Russians with their enormous reserves of manpower and resources (and the willingness to spend both gaining victory) were what gained the victory in Europe. At the height of war production, the Axis was building a thousand tanks every month. The Russians were building two thousand. By 1944, the Axis had already begun to collapse, and it wasn't because of American bombing or the sideshow invasion of Italy. The strength of an entire generation drove deep into the USSR and broke itself uselessly on the rocks of Leningrad and Stalingrad.

There's a reason W's hated so much...

[Sientifix]

I think i'll first choose France (guess why ) and Greece because all European civilisations come from there. But I will certainly try all civilizations because they are interesting in a cultural and historic point of view.

About the action of the Americans in the WWII in Europe, russians did near 90% of the job against Germany on the ground, but Americans and English did a huge work on seas, in the sky and with embargos. However, I really prefer american's GI's than russian red army's soldiers...just see how URSS countries are now compared to us.

I'm sure you know plenty of artrocities that happend thousands of years before Hitler and Stalin.

Not at the same degree as Hitler, but yes, there had lots of atrocities, as everywhere in the world. But this is the past, and I'm quite sure that Europeans or Americans can not do this again.

By the way, why did Firaxis choose the pitiful Panther as special unit for Germany? It was one of the worst tanks of WWII (except the hopeless Sherman and Cromwell)! For the record, one russian JS-II destroyed 1.3 Panther at Korsun, and one Renault B-1 destroyed 4 panther III! I think there is a big mistake here : the germans did not win with their poor technology, but with their very efficient tactics and their well-trained crews (veterans?).

[Bereta_Eder]

On a side note, according to Plato, power does have the force to corrupt even virtous men. Actually power constitues a test for a man's virtue. And the longer he/she stays in power the more strong the negative inflitrating forces of power to his/her character become and the propability of corruption increases.


Sientifix, (J'etais vraiment enchante par Paris quand je l'ai visitee )
The Panzers error is nothing! Have you seen the portrait of Alexander the Great? He looks totally constipated!

BTW, I think french will have «musketeers» as their special unit and the leader will (definitely) be Joan d'Arc.

[joseph1944]

New World Dictionary

Civilization: 1. A civilizing or becoming civilized. 2. The condition of being civilized; social organization of a high order. 3. The total culture of a people, nation, period, etc. 4. The countries and peoples considered to have reached a high stage of social and cultural development. 5. Intellectual and cultural refinement. 6. The comforts of civilized life.

After reading the above, I now believe the United State is a Civilization.

Saved our ass?
In the WW1 you intervened on the side of your debtors to prevent them defaulting on war loans.

And here all of this time, I thought we (US) went to war because of the sinking of the British Liner Lusitania killing 128 American. However it was in realty the intercepted of a German message to Mexico in January 1917. The message, known as the Zimmerman note, indicated the Germany had approached Mexico for an alliance in case of war with United States. As payment, Germany promised to help Mexico recover some land it had ceded to the United States after the Mexican War.
Military casualties in WW I

J Marks, by the time WWI was over, the US's contribution to Allied strength came up to somewhat less than ten percent of the total

The Allies Total Casualties Kia
Belgium 126,154 45,550
British Empire 2,384,860 942,135
France Empire 4,968,000 1,368,000
Greece 38,310 23,098
Italy 2,197,000 680,000
Japan 13,245 1,344
Montenegro 50,000 3,000
Portugal 22,929 8,145
Romania 405,545 300,000
Russian 9,150,000 1,700,000
Serbia 331,106 45,000
United States 320,518 116,516. War was declared on May 6, 1917 and on Nov 11, 1918 Germany signed the armistice. In 18 months we lost the number above. I think it was a little more than a showing up.

The Central powers
Austria/Hungary 4,820,000 1,200,000
Bulgaria 256,250 87,495
Germany 6,251,000 1,935,000
Ottoman Empire 2,290,000 725,000

In WW2 you came when Russians were already in Poland and probably shortened war for a month or so. Let's leave the strategic bombing out of this....

The above statement is so untrue; I cannot believe you wrote it. If you do not like the United States that OK, but to out and out lie about the United States is another thing. The United States declare War on Japan December 8, 1941 and on Germany, December 11, 1941. The US started to sent solder and equipment to England in either Jan. or Feb. 1942.
German forces entered Stalingrad Sept. 16, 1942.
The U.S. landed in North Africa on Nov. 7, 1942.
Field Marshal Friedrich Von Paulus surrendered to Russians on Jan. 31, 1943.
May 12, 1943 Organized Axis resistance in Africa ended.
July 10, 1943 Allied (U.S.) invades Sicily.
Sept. 3, 1943 Allied (U.S.) invades Italy. Italy was not a sideshow.
Nov. 6, 1943 Russian recaptured Kiev.
Jan. 27, 1944 Russian broke the siege of Leningrad.
June 6, 1944 Allied (U.S.) invades France. General George S. Patton 3rd Army does more damage to Germans forces than any other army in northern Europe. BTW the above statement is fact, go look it up if you like.
Jan. 11, 1945 Russian entered Warsaw, Poland. I guess the U.S. was fighting a little longer than a few of you think they were. April 22, 1945 Russian enters Berlin.
April 25, 1945 Russian and US met at Torgau.
May 2, 1945 German troops in Italy surrendered. There was no Russian troops in Italy.
May 7, 1945 Germany Surrendered.

[QUOTE]In WWII, the biggest contribution of the Americans was in the Pacific.[/QUOTE

That is funny because President Roosevelt made Germany his first piroties over the Pacific. Just read any book on the Pacific War and you will find that all of the Generals were yelling for more troops/planes/ships.

First the British, with their stubborness causing the Axis to constantly be threatened from the west and from the south, and next the Russians with their enormous reserves of manpower and resources (and the willingness to spend both gaining victory) were what gained the victory in Europe.

I guess the Allies (US) sat this war out. The great Soviet Union saved the day for all of Europe.

At the height of war production, the Axis was building a thousand tanks every month. The Russians were building two thousand. By 1944, the Axis had already begun to collapse, and it wasn't because of American bombing or the sideshow invasion of Italy. The strength of an entire generation drove deep into the USSR and broke itself uselessly on the rocks of Leningrad and Stalingrad.

Well I guess the 49,234 M-4 Sherman’s that were built could have stay in the US.
More Sherman’s were built than any other tank. Look it up, it is fact.
Military Casualties
Total Casualties KIA
Allies
Belgium ? 11,240
China 3,086,442 1,324,518
France 640,813 200,240
India 107,078 49,466
Poland 327,000 107,000
Russian ? 7,500,000
United Kingdom 610,904 271,320
United States 1,215,954 405,399

The Axis. I will list only Germany and Japan

Germany 8,156,000 2,916,000
Japan 2,391,736 2,144,507

Again if you do not like the US who care's. Just don't lie about us.

[Dr Strangelove]

Hey, I'm going to ask a question on this forum that I've asked before but never received an answer to. Unlike the US, whose military replacement doctrine was to replace men lost in battle on a one-for-one basis, German doctrine was to allow whole units to become depleted, then send them to the rear for refitting. If a unit was too badly decimated the unit was either written off or completely reconstituted.

My question is this: Of all the great WWII battles, which resulted in the greatest number of German divisions being destroyed or put out of action for more than 6 months?

WWI- By November of 1918 the US had more than one million men serving in France. Remember that by this time Russia was out, and the main theaters were in France, Italy and the Balkans. I don't believe that by the end of 1918 there were as many as 10 million men serving in these three theaters.

[JMarks]

Originally posted by joseph1944

Again if you do not like the US who care's. Just don't lie about us.

Go Joseph! Thanks for helping out. Spreading truth via fact.

Ioanes

[Bereta_Eder]

HEY where are the greek casualties in WW2????????????

We didn't defeat the italians so that you leave us out of your list joseph

[Bereta_Eder]

Also don't leave the serbians out in ww2. whatever you think of them, they fought bravely with all of us in WW2.

I say this because at the celebration of the defeat of the Axis the greek flag was next to the british flag in the centre of the celebrations but the serbian flag was nowhere to be seen.

This is an injustice to the serbians.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Also don't leave the Serbian out in WW2. whatever you think of them, they fought bravely with all of us in WW2.

I say this because at the celebration of the defeat of the Axis the Greek flag was next to the British flag in the center of the celebrations but the Serbian flag was nowhere to be seen.

This is an injustice to the Serbian.

I did not leave anyone out. I was using World Book Encyclopedia and they only listed the Country that I named. There is one that I did not list because it said "Other". I would assume Greece and Serbian is cover under "Other".
The numbers for Other is 304,310 total casualties, and 145,159 Killed in action. (yes I fully understand what (ass)(u)(me) means).
The Axis country that I did not list were Austria, Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Italy, and Romania. (I know Finland did not fight the US, England, France etc. They only fought the Russian).
I do not have a problem with the Serbian people, however Mr. Milosevic and his boys either need to spend the rest of their days in prison, or hanged by the neck until dead. I do not support mass killing by anyone unless there is a war and you are killing enemy soldier. As long as he was fighting the KLA no problem, but when he started to kill the people then that became a problem. I to understand with all of the Albanian living in Kosovo and Macedonia that Serbia and Macedonia are not going to give up any land so that the Albanian can make a bigger Albania. They need to understand that also. That would be the same if all of the Mexican that live in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California stood up one day and said all this land is going back to Mexico. The US Gov. would not think this would OK either. But we would not kill all Mexican either.

[Bereta_Eder]

Ok. I'm too tired to look it up now but I believe that there is some fault with «others». Greek Civil and military casualties were around 500.000 in WW2 but I might be wrong so I say this with caution.

I don't understand what (ass)(u)(me) means (remember english in not my mother language)

I agree with you on the situation in the Balkans on most points. It just wasn't right to leave the serbs out of the celebration of the Allies. They shed their blood too.

[Bereta_Eder]

And about the Balkans and what the situation is right now and how we got there, we could talk for hours but this is not the right forum!

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by paiktis22

I don't understand what (ass)(u)(me) means (remember english in not my mother language)

It is an American thing. The word "Assume" means that I may have made a "Ass" out of you and Myself for using the word. It is like I will assume that you did your job correcly. Or assume you will come and visit me tomorrow. A word not base on fact. Since the book did not say Greece, I will assume that Greece is cover anyway.