Civ4

[lord of the mark]

im leaning to the view that this is it for the civ franchise - there may be a mod pack, a civ 3.5, but there will never be a civ4. And if there is i dont expect it to be very good.

The discussions of civ3, especially the unique units question, has i think revealed that civ is approaching a deadend. Yes people will always want new features, but ultimately that means choosing a direction, a unifying theme for the features. Lets be honest, most of the left out features are being left out deliberately for the sake of simplicity and gameplay, and to appeal to a mass market. Its us history nerds who want plagues, religions, migrations, and an endless list of adavances, techs and wonders. Firaxis simply isnt going to make such a game. There is no mass market for it, and i dont think sid is interested in pursuing it. A civ 4 would only be another attempt to milk the franchise.

I think the time has come to look elsewhere - to see what people can do with a deep, limited period, real time civish game like EU, a hybrid RTS/TBS like Shogun, and with city and society modeling in the Maxis vein, or Tropico. I also look forward to the alt civ projects and to efforts from small developers. On line marketing of small shop projects has revolutionized and reinvigorated wargaming. It is too early to speak of what impact it will have on other segments of the strategy market, but it will undoubtedly have an impact well before its time for Civ4.


LOTM

[dainbramaged13]

Eventually civgames will die out simply because of this increasing demand. While hard drive space for these type games will increase forever, programmer time and money will not. A game can simply NOT have everything you can possibly imagine, ONE because they have to program it all in, and TWO because not only do they have to program it in, they have to integrate it seamlessly with every other feature, so with each new feature, the programming time grows exponentially, and while a 10mb game would be no strain on our hard drives, taking ten years to develop a game would put a strain on the programmers time and money, and therefore yours. No, we will have to deal with (as LOTM has said) time/area-specific games that go in depth, because a game spanning 6000 years and the whole world can only have so much depth. And judging from Shogun: Total War, the future doesn't look so bad after all.

[King Richard]

This is far too early to even consider! But when civ3 finally arrives we shoul have a forum to discuss what we like/dislike about the game, so that pathes/upgrades can be made instantly.

[joseph1944]

Sometime people get burn out. Look at George Lucas, Star Wars was going to be nine movie. Now will be only 6. No. 5 is due late this year or early next year. They will have to start filming no. 6 late 2002 or early 2003 for 2004 release. I'm 50 days older than George, so if no. 6 make 2004, he will be 60 years of age.
Sid is in his 40? So if he works until 60 how many years left?
Two or three year to make a (good) game. He has a enough time to make four to five game. With a little vacation from time to time.

You guys understand the vacation, a day here, a day there, so he can spend all his time making games for us.

The above statement is a joke, however I think some of you guys would keep him working until he was 90 or so.

[King Richard]

I don't think I will be playing games 10 years from now. I assume that I'll be too busy with raising a family, working and taking care of other hobbies. For all we know, there might not even be PCs 10 years from now...

[RonHiler]

Jeez, guys. Why waste your breath on a fantasy project that may or may not at some point be started in the far distant future by a designer who isn't really even designing them anymore?

There are a whole mess of civ style games in the Alt-Civ section that could use the exact input you are wasting here. These are actual projects that are in progress, with concrete results. And I'm sure all of them would highly appreciate your input.

Plus, IMO, at least two or three of them are going to be better than Civ II (and, from all I understand about Civ III design decisions, probably better than that one as well) based on their results so far and design docs (including, of course, my game ).

If you really want to have an actual effect on a game, go take a look at them. All of them have a ton of interesting aspects that are worth examining. Really! They deserve better than to be ignored over a non-existant game

[DarkCloud]

Yes- but it is unlikely your games will ever be made...

It takes at least 2 years for a real game to be made by professionals working 40-hour weeks.

I appreciate it when people give suggestions in this thread- but every few months some of your "gaming"-making people will wander over here and attempt to convert civ3-ideas people, which is all fine and good- but whilst doing it you always bash civ3,2, and Sid Meier.

-Just stating my opinion of your 'practices'

[RonHiler]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Yes- but it is unlikely your games will ever be made...

I can't speak for the other projects, but that's utter horsepucky for mine. Our game is about 85% complete, we've had multiple public Alpha releases, and we're on track to hit Beta by the end of the year. You're kidding yourself if you think our project will never be made. It already is made, mostly. I personally believe the other projects will also be finished (most of them) at some point, some earlier than others. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Only time will tell.

I certainly think they have a far better chance of being made than Civ4, at this point.

It takes at least 2 years for a real game to be made by professionals working 40-hour weeks.

Who are you telling? I know perfectly well how long it takes and what it takes to make a game. Just speaking for our project, I am a professional programmer, and I do spend far more than 40 hours a week working on the game project, just like any programmer at any game development studio, and our game is a real game. I think the others are done by hobbyists, but that hardly disqualifies them as viable projects. One of the Alt-Civ projects, Open-Civ, is a working game, done totally by amateurs. It's a Civ clone with extra added features (so yes, it is better than Civ).

I appreciate it when people give suggestions in this thread- but every few months some of your "gaming"-making people will wander over here and attempt to convert civ3-ideas people, which is all fine and good- but whilst doing it you always bash civ3,2, and Sid Meier.

I've never bashed Civ 2. I enjoyed Civ 2 immensely. I do not, however, feel it is the end-all-be-all of gaming experiences. Improvements can be made, IMO. If you want to call that bashing, then I disagree. The only problem I have ever had with Civ 2 was it was a bit too derivative of Civ 1, not enough had changed. But still, I played it for long periods of time. As for Civ 3, I won't bash it until it hits the shelves. My only comment about Civ 3 at this point is that, given the design decisions I've heard about (mostly here at Apolyton), I don't think it's going to be the awesome game everyone thinks it is. I could be wrong. I hope I am wrong. But I disagree with so many of the design decisions made for that game that I don't intend to buy it the day it comes out. I will give it time and see what the reaction here is. I give it a good 50/50 chance that I'm not going to buy it at all. I don't consider this bashing, really. It's just my opinion. They're not putting in the features that I want to see, and thus I'm no longer particularly thrilled with the game. Others may want to see other features that they are putting in, and it may be the greatest game in the world for them, just not for me.

Now Sid is another story. I will bash Sid if you like. I don't consider him the gaming god everyone seems to think he is. He wrote Civ I (which he stole from a board game) and Pirates. Both exceptionally good games. And he hasn't done a damn thing worth mentioning since. If I'm bashing your idol, then I'm sorry. I don't hero worship unless the person has earned it, and IMO, Sid has not. Just my opinion.

It seems you've never bothered to actually look at what's going on in Alt-Civ. That's fine, that's your choice. No one's holding a gun to your head. But please don't make unsupported conclusions based on what you think might be happening. You made at least two statements in your 4 sentence post that were flat out wrong, because you don't have any idea of the things that are going on over in "our" section.

Ron

[dainbramaged13]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by RonHiler
Jeez, guys. Why waste your breath on a fantasy project that may or may not at some point be started in the far distant future by a designer who isn't really even designing them anymore?
[QUOTE]
cuz we have no lif

no seriously, darkclouds right.

Now Sid is another story. I will bash Sid if you like. I don't consider him the gaming god everyone seems to think he is. He wrote Civ I (which he stole from a board game) and Pirates. Both exceptionally good games. And he hasn't done a damn thing worth mentioning since. If I'm bashing your idol, then I'm sorry. I don't hero worship unless the person has earned it, and IMO, Sid has not. Just my opinion.

You better install a security system in your house after uttering these words at ACS.

[MrFun]

I would try to explain why this thread is not meaningful to me, but then, that would be a waste of calories burned from the typing.

[RonHiler]

Originally posted by dainbramaged13
cuz we have no lif

Hehe.

no seriously, darkclouds right.

Sorry, I missed the reference. What's he right about?

Now Sid is another story.

You better install a security system in your house after uttering these words at ACS.

hehe, maybe you're right But it's just my opinion. I make no attempt to enforce it on others.

Anyway, sorry for going off Darkcloud. Nothing will irritate me faster than when someone dismisses my project, which has taken three years of very grueling work, as "amateurish crap that will never be finished", especially when they haven't even looked at it first.

My only point was that all of y'alls energy might better be served talking about existing projects rather than a non-existant one. I've made that point, so now I'll shut up and go back to my corner. You can feel free to ignore me and talk about Civ 4 if you like.

Ron

[TechWins]

I'm going to stay in denial and think that Civ will last forever.

[dainbramaged13]

Originally posted by TechWins
I'm going to stay in denial and think that Civ will last forever.

Goood thinking, tech

[Vrank Prins]

IMO there will allways be someone who after five or six years will pick up the game and try to improve it. Whether it's SID, Brian Reynolds or someone-else. The gameconcept still has lot's of possibilities to grow without losing its great playability and addictivness.

CIV will stay with us in our lives like f.e. Scrabble, Monopoly, Risk, Freecell . . . . .


Good idea Dark Cloud !!!

[Grumbold]

Civ style games will stay with us, in concept, for a long time yet. All the Alt-civ products being created demonstrate as much.

I'm going to stay positive and fully expect to see Civ IV in production by 2007 with dozens of awesome new features, including the option to take VR walks through your capital city. Remember: shut your eyes, click your heels together three times and repeat after me "There's no game like Civ4... there's no game like Civ4..."