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I'm giving up Civilization. Here's why

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  • I'm giving up Civilization. Here's why

    My computer's hard disk has just omitted an equivalent of a 'sigh of relief' as 1.5GB of Civilization data has been removed.

    Having been with Civilization III from the start, I'm now giving it up. For the entire two and a half years the game has been on release with its expansions, I've had the same old problem - sometimes getting the win, but 90% of the time being subjected to harsh luck and even harsher gaming conventions like 'thou shalt not build at higher difficulty levels'.

    For example, yesterday I finished a game on Emperor level as the Arabs, and scored 5723 points. However, my addiction needs fueling so I started up more games today - but found that the same old thing was happening. For every one game successful, at least a dozen others set upon by the forces of 'unfairness'.

    Whether it be a rush from an AI that starts the game with half a dozen units, an AI that expands into your spaces before you can even conceivably build settlers let alone move them or build roads for them to move over, barbarians attacking your workers and units when you've barely had time to do anything, a terrible starting location, a good starting location which you realize after a few turns is terrible because it's surrounded by jungle, or even the annoying habit of the AI punishing you for building too many buildings while it, on the other hand, is pumping out not just units, workers and improvements but also wonders.

    If Firaxis want me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, back as a customer for Civ4 then something must be done about the harsh exposure to probability. Other games that I have enjoyed and respected like Age of Empires and Red Alert do not start you off in terrible locations. In fact, in Age of Empires 2 you always start with roughly the same resources around you. Perhaps it is part of Firaxis's attempt to make Civilization look like a game for the more mature. However, it is annoying. The introduction of new difficulty levels, as well as continued membership on these forums, makes the prospect of going back in difficulty, or turning barbarians down (I always have them at the level just above sedentary) seem like too humiliating a concession.

    Civilization has great potential, but the game's mechanics are still stuck in the primitive set of the original civilization released more than ten years ago. Civ4 needs to be radical, entirely different. It needs to offer a more satisfying way of winning games, challenging but not obnoxiously or overpoweringly so at higher levels. I feel that the current set-up is dying and I do not see a Civ5 unless Sid figures out where properly to address the series' shortcomings.

  • #2
    What size map are you playing on? My opinion is the larger the map the more even the start positions.

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    • #3
      A sad thing indeed. You could use the editor to "even things up" if you find the game fun otherwise.

      I have no idea about Civ5, but Civ4 is already announced and if it sells as well as III, you will be seeing a V at some point.

      It is not often that a game over 2 years old has somany fan sites with so much activetly. My guess is that many games rank higher that came out the same year are already forgotten.

      good Luck.

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      • #4
        Very disappointing that someone who obviously has a lot invested in civ would feel the need to give it up due to the mechanics of the latest incarnation.

        I am finding that playing a winning hand in C3C is much more difficult as well. So much now depends on finding resources and making good guesses about where future resources will show up when making early warfare choices. I liked resources in Civ3. I thought they added flavour. However I think the push to make it 'more interesting' has taken some of the fun out of the game in many situations. Perhaps a lesson for the designers that the clamouring for 'harder, harder, harder' will not be universally met with joy if catered to.

        As for difficulties though, I don't find that a problem. I acknowledge that there will be certain things a player will have to do to win at Monarch, and then Emperor, and then other things required to play and win at Demi, Deity, and Sid. Emperor is where the attraction ends for me, but I often play Monarch when I just want to have fun. I don't want to have to plan plan plan all the time. Sometimes I just want to sit back, make quick decisions and hit end turn quickly.
        (\__/)
        (='.'=)
        (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by vmxa1
          I have no idea about Civ5, but Civ4 is already announced and if it sells as well as III, you will be seeing a V at some point.
          As long as AtariGrames can make anything off it you'll see more Civs.

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          • #6
            I almost always make my own maps when I play on higher difficulty levels. It may get old, but why not trying out building an Island and starting on it alone?
            New American UU: Al Gore-Eliminates pollution and you get "The Internet" great wonder instantly.

            New Hittite MGL: Howard Dean(listen to what their UU sounds like when it attacks)

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            • #7
              There's a lot of things I like about Civ3 - culture, unique units, civilization traits, resources.

              But there are also things I don't like about Civ3 - most notably the trade system. The computer also cheats in my opinion, but that's not really relevant to the discussion.
              Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.

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              • #8
                I had similar issues with Civ3 and corruption. I like to build so I used to edit the game to lower corruption. It really made a difference in my enjoyment level.

                I also downloaded one of the scenarios where outdated units were given the ability to upgrade to infantry and fighters were given the ability to kill. That made a lot of sense. The scenario also improved my enjoyment.

                As in C3, I play most of my C3C games at Monarch because I like easier games where a couple of wrong moves or bad luck don't kill you. However, I also enjoy the harder games, just not so often.

                I think C2..C3C has done a bang up job in the difficulty levels. The differences in difficulty are seemingly on a log scale (or maybe a ln scale). My kids like it on the easier settings and I like it more difficult. Gives us much to talk about.

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                • #9
                  I have similar issues with this game. I have hundreds of annoyances with balance and little things, but the main problem I see with the game is that it's way too easy at Monarch and below, to the point that it's no fun to play. Above Monarch, it's annoying and luck-based at the beginning, until you finally start to catch up to the AI, at which point it's too easy again.

                  I'd rather see Civ4 take the game down a step in complexity to allow the AI to compete better, as I understand writing a really good AI for a game like this is near impossible.

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                  • #10
                    because civilizations in real life aren't subject to proabilitiy or anything.

                    i have not had one game with conquests (or dare i say, since i've become a decent civ3 player) that i simply could not play out to victory. i've even played out the "so very cold" game back in the day.

                    if you want a kickass start every time, whats the point of playing? i can see if you don't like actually struggling for the victory, but thats where i see the majority of the fun. i usually end up quitting games somewhere in the middle of the industrial era, because my victory is assured.

                    i love the beginning of the game, where i have to carve out my land and build my empire in the face of hardships.

                    if i'm handed a firggin utopia for a start location, i end up with an assured victory even earlier.
                    "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
                    - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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                    • #11
                      Former Member/ SlightlyMadman:

                      First off, let me say that I'm sorry you're not happy with the game. However, I disagree with your criticisms of the game and think a few comments on your complaints are in order.

                      1. You both seem to be very upset over the role that luck plays in this game. Whether it be the quality of your starting position, the aggressiveness of your neighbors or unfortunate combat roles, I agree that luck plays a factor (as it does in real life as well). I tend to agree with Uber KruX: that's part of the fun. Getting a crappy starting can make for a very challenging and enjoyable game. It also lets you try different approaches/ strategies to win. Rarely do you get a starting position which is truly "unwinnable."

                      2. Building on that point, I'd ask you to consider the possibility that you're allowing yourself to get into a rut in terms of your play-style. I mean no insult here, but if you're finding that for every one game you can reasonably play, you're losing/ quitting 12 games, I would suggest that you are not modifying your way of playing to make the most of your situation. The reality is that not every starting position lends itself to every type of victory.

                      3. Former Member, I don't know what to make of your statement that taking a step down is "too humiliating a concession." I would just say that, since the intent of the game is to have FUN, if dropping to Monarch makes the game more fun for you, don't let pride get in the way! You should be aware that many very good players here prefer Monarch. If, however, being able to win at Emp is very important to you, I'd recommend reading Mountain Sage's thread on Winning at Emperor level and posting questions or saves to the forum. People here are happy to help you.

                      If your decision to stop playing is final, again I'm sorry to hear that. I've been playing Civ3 for an awfully long time now, and have yet to feel like it's no longer interesting, challenging or fun.
                      They don't get no stranger.
                      Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
                      "We will not tire, we will not falter, and we will not fail." George W. Bush

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                      • #12
                        Man, it sounds like the poster needs a Waaaambulance. Stuff happens. Random events happen. If we could expect every game to work out a certain specific way, then the game would be no longer enjoyable. The game is at it's best for me when I find myself in a desperate situation, but I adapt and persevere and I end up out on top. The AI has to have it's advantages for the supreme one you have: true intelligence. Perhaps giving the AI extra units and reduced production times is not the most elegant and creative solution to leveling the playing field, but it's what we've got, and you either have to work through it, or give it up.
                        Rhett Monroe Chassereau

                        "I use to be with it, then they changed what it is. And what I'm with isn't it, and what is it seems strange and scary to me." -Abe Simpson

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                        • #13
                          Hrmm....

                          I've enjoyed Civ 1, 2, and 3. I love the concept of forging a nation from the ground up.

                          However, I just have two nitpicks with Civ3, which probably has already been discussed before.

                          The weird AI diplomacy, especially with MPP and declaring war aganist other AI civ's.

                          Ai's tendency to buddy up with other AI's more than they do with the human player, even if the human player is middle or last ranking. (Understandable gang-up if the human player is #1).


                          I always create random maps in the Editor, so I can tweak a few rules. Most of the time, I tweak the ship movement points (Does it really take 20 - 100 years for a steam OR combustion powered ship to travel around the world? ) and on some occasions, I bump up food production in hills to 2, and mountains to 1... and also enable city building in mountains (The Incas were able to eke out food production in their mountain cities. Also, cities between mountain valleys or small plateaus on mounatins are feasible).

                          I also lower the corruption levels a bit, to somewhere between 20 - 30% of the original levels. Think of it this way, San Franscisco, Los Angeles, and Anchorage are a long way from Washington D.C. but they handle production just as effectively as New York City, Boston, or Baltimore.

                          Other than that, the rules remain normal. My enjoyment remains high.
                          Geniuses are ordinary people bestowed with the gift to see beyond common everyday perceptions.

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                          • #14
                            I think that is a reasonable approach to getting more fun out of the game. If corruption is annoying to a player, go ahead and changes the rules to ease it. If resources are an issue change the frequency.

                            I don't do that because I want to be able to evaluate things I see in other games. If I have mods, then they won't apply as well, but it is ok to do it.

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                            • #15


                              Blah blah blah. Ive seen too many of these "I hate this game so im gonna sell/uninstall" threads. Im getting tired of this lame attempt to troll.
                              :-p

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