Espionage--worthless?

[gunkulator]

Sid-level! Yikes! Don't think I'll ever try it because I'm no fan of extensive micromanagement. Emporer is as high as I go.

So perhaps the answer to the thread's question is: Espionage starts to become useful at the god-like levels.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by gunkulator
Sid-level! Yikes! Don't think I'll ever try it because I'm no fan of extensive micromanagement. Emporer is as high as I go.

So perhaps the answer to the thread's question is: Espionage starts to become useful at the god-like levels.

I've never been a big fan of Espionage but I'm learning about it because I have to. Just to add a bit to the data, my small sample seems to suggest that tech stealing succeeds about 80% of the time. Now that I know a bit more about it's uses I doubt that I'll ignore it when I leave the icy peaks of Sid for Emperor's rolling hills.

[vmxa1]

It seems that tech stealing is much easier and cheaper before the IA is built. Once you have a spy in place it seems harder and more expensive to get a tech.

This is just a feeling, based on only my limited use of stealing, so it may not stand up to a serious test.

I would say it is a very useful way to go at Sid. I may have fared much better if I had used it sooner, but I still would have had big problems with the culture.

At Emperor and Demi you can get back in the tech race sooner, so stealing tech is not critical. The cost factor makes it less of an issue. It is twice as expensive (to research) at Sid as it is at Emperor and 50% more than Deity.

So I would subscribe to the theory that espionage is more useful at the highest levles.

[Ecliptik]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Go into the "espionage" screen (even without the Intelligence Agency SW), pick a civ you have an embassy with, and you can investigate a city. I think you can also steal a tech, but only for an exorberant amount of gold and very little chance of success...

i have managed a couple of times to steal tech w/ an ambassador and its not actually that bad the problem is you can only steal 1 or 2 techs from them @ a time and it IS expensive

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
It seems that tech stealing is much easier and cheaper before the IA is built. Once you have a spy in place it seems harder and more expensive to get a tech.

If this is right then it’s wrong. It doesn’t seem fair that you would obtain the espionage tech, build a small wonder, and take the risk/expense of placing a spy only to have the result be that an ancient espionage technique becomes less likely to succeed.

[Ecliptik]

Originally posted by Tall Stranger


You always have a 100% success rate when you investigate a city at peacetime via diplomats. I don't think investigating a city increases resentment, but then I usually am doing this right before a war and so my relationship with the other civ is usually pretty lousy anyway.



Yes, I got one in a previous game. (It was actually my first battle with an elite AC! Made a nice army!)

whats an MGL
whats an ancient calvalry and (not in this quote)
whats sid level

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Ecliptik


whats an MGL
whats an ancient calvalry and (not in this quote)
whats sid level

All of these are new items found in the conquests expansion to Civilization III.

Great leaders are now divided into two varieties...
1. MGL = Military Great Leader.
2. SGL = Scientific Great Leader.

Ancient Cavalry are units generated from a wonder called the Statue of Zeus available after you get Mathematics if you have Ivory.

Sid level is a step above Deity and might be described as the equivalent of willfully scooping out chunks of your flesh with a dull rusty implement.

[dainbramage20]

Its useful to an extent. One of the things I would like to see in Civ4 is the Diplomat not have this ability

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen


If this is right then it’s wrong. It doesn’t seem fair that you would obtain the espionage tech, build a small wonder, and take the risk/expense of placing a spy only to have the result be that an ancient espionage technique becomes less likely to succeed.

I think you are correct, this should not be how it works (if it in fact does work that way).

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen

Sid level is a step above Deity and might be described as the equivalent of willfully scooping out chunks of your flesh with a dull rusty implement.

Not quite that bad. More like a mild beating. Painful, but you recover soon.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1


Not quite that bad. More like a mild beating. Painful, but you recover soon.

Spoken like a true Sidhartha.

[Daz]

I rarely use them. As most of the others..... Theres your answer.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by vmxa1
It seems that tech stealing is much easier and cheaper before the IA is built. Once you have a spy in place it seems harder and more expensive to get a tech.

This is just a feeling, based on only my limited use of stealing, so it may not stand up to a serious test.

I had a chance to check this out and my impression using a Communist spy was just the opposite of your impression Vmxa1. I was able to plant the spy in a nation I was at war with and afterwards tech theft, sabotage, etc seemed much more successful than my diplomatic thieveries. This makes sense since the spies are vets and the diplomats are regulars. Small sample size I admit but that was my impression.

[Puma]

I wish there was more info on the factors affecting espionage missions.
Could it be that communist spies have a higher success rate than spies in other government types? Could it also be that espionage missions become less likely to succeeed if the target civ also has its own intelligency agency?
To answer the question, I do build the IA as soon as possible after getting espionage - sometimes I even prebuild it - simply because I think it makes it possible to know when someone is trying to put a spy in your capital. Prior to that, I have never seen the advisor tell me that Gonzo from across the border tried to put a spy in my nation. I also use it when trying to start a war, by first kicking the target's spy off my nation; and if that fails (possibly because there was no foreign spy in the first place) then I still tend to get my war anyway - without declaring it myself. I usually combine that with stealing battle plans to find where the enemy transports/subs are, how many defenders are on each enemy border city and where to concentrate my attacks and defenses. I never risked tech stealing (I dont normally play above emperor) nor throwing the shoe into their production machine. I also learned to forget propaganda as it usually only works on off the beaten path towns which I could not afford to defend in a timely and cost effective manner. Maybe this is something for galapago style maps - with single city islands. The way I normally look at it, one more measly town is only going add to my corruption due to city count. If I want a luxury, I'd rather bring a load units to that town.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Drachen


I had a chance to check this out and my impression using a Communist spy was just the opposite of your impression Vmxa1. I was able to plant the spy in a nation I was at war with and afterwards tech theft, sabotage, etc seemed much more successful than my diplomatic thieveries. This makes sense since the spies are vets and the diplomats are regulars. Small sample size I admit but that was my impression.

The small amount of exposure I have had at doing is the reason I used the term seems.

Using spies the figures were much higher for me, but these were in different times as PTW vs C3C.