Espionage--worthless?

[PGM]

Originally posted by steven8r
You don't need a spy to Investigate a city, your Ambasador can do that job for you w/o the chance/expense of planting a Spy. I generally just rely on my Diplomats in the Embassies. They're much cheaper and don't cause resentment upon failure--they don't fail.

What do you mean? They can only investigate the capital, and that's only at the brief moment they're planted, right? Or is there another way of using the Ambassadors that I'm not aware of?

[Guynemer]

Go into the "espionage" screen (even without the Intelligence Agency SW), pick a civ you have an embassy with, and you can investigate a city. I think you can also steal a tech, but only for an exorberant amount of gold and very little chance of success...

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber


I have gotten Propoganda to work many times. The main reason to conduct a Propoganda mission is if you need a toe hold onto another continent, or to get an important luxury or resource (possible but only in limited circumstances)

There are severe restrictions to propoganda missions. The first (and most obvious) is that Democracies are immune to them. The second is that the sucess rate is largely dependent on the culture value of the target city (over 100 is unlikely and over 500 is next to impossible) Repeated attempts raise your odds slightly (just an observation, not based on statistical analysis) propoganda missions are most successful against isolated cities containing valuable real estate or resources from a Civ with vastly inferior culture (they should be in awe of your civ)

thanks for that, will try again next game

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by PGM


What do you mean? They can only investigate the capital, and that's only at the brief moment they're planted, right? Or is there another way of using the Ambassadors that I'm not aware of?

keep in mind that you can only investigate cities that you can see on the map. So if you don't explore well, you won't be able to tell what some cities are doing. especially important in wonder races.

[Capt Dizle]

Play some sid level folks and you will learn to appreciate tech theft.

[PGM]

Originally posted by guynemer

Go into the "espionage" screen (even without the Intelligence Agency SW), pick a civ you have an embassy with, and you can investigate a city. I think you can also steal a tech, but only for an exorberant amount of gold and very little chance of success...

Originally posted by asleepathewheel

keep in mind that you can only investigate cities that you can see on the map. So if you don't explore well, you won't be able to tell what some cities are doing. especially important in wonder races.

Thank you. I can't believe I didn't know this after playing so many games. Boy is my face red...

[Drachen]

Originally posted by steven8r

I generally just rely on my Diplomats in the Embassies. They're much cheaper and don't cause resentment upon failure--they don't fail.

Steven

Are you sure Diplomats don't fail or cause resentment if the mission is "safely" done? Does anyone know the odds of success if they're not 100%?

Also, has anyone gotten a MGL from an ancient cavalry unit victory?

[Tall Stranger]

Originally posted by Drachen
Are you sure Diplomats don't fail or cause resentment if the mission is "safely" done? Does anyone know the odds of success if they're not 100%?

You always have a 100% success rate when you investigate a city at peacetime via diplomats. I don't think investigating a city increases resentment, but then I usually am doing this right before a war and so my relationship with the other civ is usually pretty lousy anyway.

Also, has anyone gotten a MGL from an ancient cavalry unit victory?

Yes, I got one in a previous game. (It was actually my first battle with an elite AC! Made a nice army!)

[Drachen]

Originally posted by Tall Stranger


You always have a 100% success rate when you investigate a city at peacetime via diplomats. I don't think investigating a city increases resentment, but then I usually am doing this right before a war and so my relationship with the other civ is usually pretty lousy anyway.



Yes, I got one in a previous game. (It was actually my first battle with an elite AC! Made a nice army!)

MGL from AC sounds great and will be perfect for my current game. Thanks for the info.

As to the Diplomatic missions I was thinking more in terms of stealing tech "safely" and am interested in the odds and repercussions. The game’s at Sid so stealing tech is pretty much a necessity.

[lethe]

I'm not playing on Sid, so stealing tech for me is mostly to cause them to declare war. My rep is usually lousy without me declaring war right and left. If I happen to actually get a tech out of the deal it's a huge bonus.

Also the cost of stealing tech might initially seem high, but in the late industrial it's definitely cheaper than buying the tech for pure cash.

[Alex]

I miss how you could frame other nations (er, factions) for your own espionage actions in SMAC...

[Drachen]

Originally posted by lethe
I'm not playing on Sid, so stealing tech for me is mostly to cause them to declare war. My rep is usually lousy without me declaring war right and left. If I happen to actually get a tech out of the deal it's a huge bonus.

I usually try to protect my reputation so that I have the option to buy critical resources etc. on credit. That’s why I’m concerned with the repercussions associated with a blown diplomatic mission. I know that getting caught stealing tech doesn’t always lead to a declaration of war because I got caught once and it didn’t even change the AI’s attitude in the diplomacy screen. That’s about all I know about it though, so any input will be appreciated and the poster will be praised with lavish abandon by all the citizens of my fledgling nation.

[Drachen]

Blown diplomatic missions to steal tech safely can take an AI from polite to annoyed.

[gunkulator]

If you have enough money to steal a tech, buy tanks with it and go grab a couple cities. Sue for peace 5 turns later and get your tech that way.

[Drachen]

Originally posted by gunkulator
If you have enough money to steal a tech, buy tanks with it and go grab a couple cities. Sue for peace 5 turns later and get your tech that way.

The games that have been posted so far suggest that the “Beat the Tech out of them” approach doesn't work as well at Sid as it does at lower levels. Vmxa1 posted an excellent game in which he won the battles, expanded his empire, and extorted tech for peace but still fell far behind in the tech race and eventually lost due to low culture. In Jimmy trick’s and probably Minstrel’s game tech stealing helped them maintain tech parity. I don’t know if tech stealing is “The Answer” but in my present game I’m about to hit Industrial and the last tech I researched was literature. The Inca are in the lead, have Nationalism, and are probably somewhere up that side of the tech tree. I’ll be in a position to steal another tech in a turn or two. With a little luck I’ll be able to trade my way to parity and then we’ll see.