ND FA thread 1

[Jon Miller]

that is better

Vox just does not have to give reparations to anyone (I would rather you say that the matter is not of reparations, but is a gesture to a new ally)

the whole idea of reparations implies that we are weaker and that we did not deal fairly

I don't want to admit to that (and I don't think we are weaker and I don't think that we dealt unfairly)

the first part is all ok, saying that there is anything right about reparations is wrong, I think (because there is nothing right about it)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

and I still point out that it might be them (or GoW) that we will go after

I think that we want to know who we go after, before we start giving them stuff

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I guess maybe I should ask

Beta

do you think we owe ND?

Jon Miller

[Beta]

No - not really. I guess I was thinking of the alliance side of things. Literature has gotten passed around enough that it can't be worth that much. 40 gold is not much.

And to tie it into your earlier question, in the back of my mind I was thinking it would be GoW we take out. ND looks like a pretty serious machine. Then again - they are stronger - or have more points - than GoW. So we would be better served by bringing down the stronger civ.

It would be good to know what the geography looks like over there. It may help with our decision.

[Jon Miller]

I guess this is important

I think it would probably be best to pick one now, and go after the other

going with eth stronger would be easier, we would get less gains that way though

we could use a Lux man in this situation

JOn Miller

[Beta]

Yes - we could. It looks like they are all going to GoW, RP, or GS. Can you do some arm twisting with Calc?

[Dis]

cost of the war?

They have complete control over the northern part of their continent now. They have a strong presence in their continent now. I don't want to make them even more poweful.

[Beta]

From Darekill of ND.

diplomatic relations
Louis has published you letter in our privat forum.

We all think that this is acceptable. There is no need for further delay.

We are looking forward to many years of a friendly relationship with you.

BetaHound an Louis:

We are working on an initiative to provide you with literature, and some
gold as the next step in cementing our friendship with you. All we ask in
return is a commitment to a favored-nation trading status, and a commitement
to friendship. We are sitting on the save now. I will send a longer letter
in response to you points. Let me know as soon as possible, and I can send
the deal accepted.
__________________

[Beta]

sent this morning

Thank-you Darekill - we look forward to our partnership. As recent events have shown, it is important to have friends in this world.

And speaking of a partnership, we have just completed philosophy. I understand that GoW is also trying to sell this tech. Perhaps we can reach a mutually beneficial deal.

Also, we were planning on researching polytheism next, but RolePlay is researching that. We were thinking of currency, but rumor says that you are researching that. Can you confirm in order that we maximize our trading potential. We are also not opposed to doing trades based on trust - providing a tech in advance of future returns.

If you can let us know about the technology situation, it would be appreciated. We are sitting on the save for awhile. (We have lots of time saved up )

Regards - Beta.

[Beta]

His response:

"You are right we are researching currency right now. It'll be finished in about 20 turns. So please research something else. We have already good relationships with GoW and a Techresarchpact. We'd like to have you in that boat too, so i would sugest that you research something else."

Any thoughts on a research path?

[Jon Miller]

we should try to trade them philosophy

Jon Miller

[Beta]

Yes - you are right! I'm on it.

[Beta]

OK - I re-worked the previous letter, making some adjustments, dropping the cash payment from 40 to 30, and adding a trade proposal. Essentailly I am offering philo and poly for currency and 20 gold. I figured it would have taken 20-30 gold to balance a straight poly for currency deal, so asking 20 from them with all three techs on the table is like getting 40-50 gold for philosophy. Which isn't bad considering GoW has it, and we got map making for 40.

Diss - please note the proposed deal and my refernce to GoW. You should contact GoW and grease the rails from that end. But I think Neu D are the ones who can cinch it for us.

Jon - can you inform GS of what we are proposing. It gets all three techs we need. It may cost GS a bit of cash but not much. But we don't want them wading into the middle of the deal by accident. The bigger civs may think trading with us is a better idea as we are smaller than GS.

My letter to Neu D - our new friends


Louis, esteemed Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica.

Dear Sir,

Your recent letter has supplied us with much food for thought. Perhaps it would be best if I first explained recent events from our perspective.

Earlier in the game, we had met Lux over a straight of water which separates our continent, Estonia, from yours. We had one early trade deal which did not go well, and from our perspective, Lux did not honor their part of the bargain. Sound familiar?

When their demise was imminent, Lux contacted us again at the very last minute. Despite our earlier issues with Lux, our intent in saving them was humanitarian. We did not want to see a team exit the game so early. I know the amout of time and personal energy which has gone into each of the teams, and acknowledging that sooner or later teams would be eliminated, it just seemed too soon. Also, as we were approached at the last minute, we had only a few hours of time to reflect on the decision, and then it was done. A hasty accord was drawn up.

As to why we did not inform the rest of the world... We thought that Lux after its close call would like to remain quiet and out of sight. We thought that would be best for all involved. Lux clearly thought differently.

From the start there were issues with the accord, and then some issues with our neighbours to the south, and trading issues with RolePlay and GoW given that Trip was sill actively wheeling and dealing. This caused constant irritation and 'fire-fighting' for us, his benefactors and saviours. He was alienating civs which had been our trading partners. In the end, it became too much. After much deliberation, the final senate vote was unanimous.

That being said, our team is fairly sombre right now. In many respects I wish it was Neu D which had ended the civilization of Lux. You had noble and righteous reasons for doing so. To us it feels like we killed a helpless refugee who we had agreed to harbor.

But what is done is done. And the world moves on - without Lux Invicta.

Which brings us to the key point in your letter - the question of reparations. Vox did not embark on this 'adventure' for economic gain. Yes, there were benefits which were to accrue to Vox over time, but as I have said, the accord was 'flawed', and the future returns doubtful. In addition, Vox incurred the costs associated with 'loaning' the city to Lux for the number of turns involved. Given that Lux is now gone, 'reparations' does not seem like the proper phrase to use.

But upon considering the matter, there is a strong moral logic to your point of the cost of the conflict to you. However, we would like to take it one step further, and beyond simply a matter of historical perspective. We would like to look to the future. Therfore, as I mentioned previously, we would like to offer Neu Demogyptica not only Literature, which we have provided, but also 30 gold, which is half of the Lux treasury which remains with Vox. In return we ask for an alliance between our two nations. A commitment to a stronger friendship and economic partnership, now that a more peaceful era has arrived. We have not communicated much in the past. We should change this for the future.

We trust you will see this as fair and reasonable. Vox Controli values its reputation as a noble and honorable civilization. We hope our proposal demostrates it.

As a second step - we would also like to propose a trade now. We are researching Polytheism. We too will be finished in approximately 20 turns, possibly less. We would like both our nations to commit to the following trade. We provide philosphy to you now. When we have completed our respective techs, we provide you with Polytheism, and you provide us with Currency and 20 gold. We agree not to trade for currency with another civilization, and you agree not to trade for Polytheism.

We are also interested in your trade relationship with Glory of War. We too have had successful trades with them and find them honorable in their dealings. We understand they may be researching construction. Perhaps you can use your influence with them to make this a 'locked-in' three-way deal. We provide currency and polytheism to them - they provide contsruction. As construction is a more valuable technology - we would be willing to provide 30 gold to balance the deal with GoW. We will mention our proposal briefly to GoW. But I suspect you are in a better position to 'close' the deal. I think there is stong merit to committing to this deal now, rather than get caught up in the trading frenzy which will occur. It ensures each of us that we get at least two 'direct' trades for our techs. It will benefit our three civilizations mutually.

I look forward to hearing from you on this matter. And my sincerest regards to you and the leaders and citizens of Neu Demogyptica.

BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

sent to Louis by e-mail and Darekill by PM.

[Beta]

And Darekill's early response. Note his ominous closing remarks. If we give up on NeuD as an ally, then I think we switch to currency and try a similar deal with RolePlay. Comments?

Thank you for your kind letter.

You are right concerning two major points.

1. Lux were a funny bunch! We didn't want to eliminate them from the start of the war, we only wanted to cut them to size. But they made promises after promises that were broken or were simply not acceptable to a clear mind. So we just had to chase them to get anything.

2. Reperations is certainly not the proper word for what we wanted the point is, beeing german i speak english to a good amout but not perfect by far so i just lacked a proper word for what we realy want. I hope you understand that. Just read the Letters from ND and have a laugh of our sometimes funny englisch we won't be offended because we know how funny a english native speaker sounds when he writes in german. No hard feelings just keep in mind that we sometimes will use wrong our inapropriate words.

Concerning the trade you have proposed we will have to discuss that in our forum. I think Louis will contact you soon. But as i mentioned before we are interested in allies. Our only main objection will be keep away from Borconia our continent it is already crowded with three civ's so we would not like to see a fourth one. We will keep away from Estonia in return.

[Wittlich]

Our only main objection will be keep away from Borconia our continent it is already crowded with three civ's so we would not like to see a fourth one. We will keep away from Estonia in return.

****. So do we continue with our plans for our expansion? How close is ND to us? I still say that we should continue our plans for a foothold on Bob/Borconia. How does everyone else feel about this?