ND FA thread 1

[Jon Miller]

Beta is covering these guys

Jon Miller

[Beta]

My greetings message to Neu D of early February:

Please see my next note. This is re-send of my earlier message. ... Beta.
quote:

BetaHound wrote on 06-02-2003 09:12:
Picahulu - esteemed minister for the great nation of Neu Demogyptica.

It was with great pleasure that I received your recent note. I very much enjoyed our early dialogue, and now that the game has progressed, it is important that we talk again. My sense has always been that Neu D is a civilization we could trust, and given that our early existence in this game has had its moments of tension, we look forward to establishing some firm friendships in this world. Friendships where our respective goals compliment each other, as oppose to competing against each other. And a friend we can rely on to stand beside us when things get tough, and vice-versa.

We very much look forward to meeting you in the game. We are obviously on a smaller continent to the east of yours. It runs roughly north-south. We inhabit the north, and smaller end of the continent. Our neighbours to the south are Gathering Storm. We got off to a tense start with GS regarding exploration and expansion rights, but have since established much better relationships, and have recently agreed to the positioning of cities and our border. We have conducted technology trades with them.

Our geography is rugged - and in fact - the northern part of our lands are separated from the southern part of the continent by a one tile 'chokepoint', soon to be a city. This has made us feel somewhat secure. Our early efforts went to expansion and major road construction; we are now concentrating on city growth and economic development.

Now - a matter of common interest. We contacted Lux Invicta over a straight of water that separates our continent from yours. Things started off friendly enough, and trade arrangements were made. It has now become clear that there was a misunderstanding regarding the arrangements, and Lux is claiming that we agreed to a deal which would be very much in their favour. We disagree. As the last part of this deal involves us sending them a technology we are just completing, we are holding out for a re-negotiation. However, we have not heard from them lately, and I presume they are occupied with other concerns.

The northen end of the continent you are on is very close to our capitol - and is only separated by the straight of water. I presume Lux is the closest civ to us, given that we contacted them next. And then I assume you are their closest neighbours. I think we can both see where our common interest lies. Now - if only we had galleys ..... (grumble, mumble).

You might also be interested to hear that Lux did not speak very well of you when we first met them. They accused you of breaking deals, etc, etc. Given our recent experience with them, we have our own ideas of where the truth lies.

So my friend, I have shared a fair bit of where we are at. And perhaps more than our other senators may approve of. But I have a good feeling about our potential realtionship, and I do believe we can share an early common interest. To say nothing of the trade possibilities. Our friends to the south, Gathering Storm, are eager to engage in multi-national trading arrangements, and we have directed our respective research paths in that regards.

I look forward to hearing from you. You should also note that if you can get a unit to the north-east tip of the continent, we could meet in the game, and enable a true trading relationship. But for now, we would like to learn of the rest of the world, of your experiences so far, and your opinion on the 'common interest' I have suggested.

My regards to you, Borc, and the rest of the leaders of Neu Demogyptica. May your nation and its people live long and prosper!

With sincerity and friendship - BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs, Vox Controli.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Their response:

Pulled from the other thread - dated 21 Feb

Received from Neu Demogyptica, via e-mail.

Dear BetaHound,
Dear Voxians, dear friends,

let me introduce myself. I am Louis, citizen of Neu Demogyptica and
designated ambassador for the empire of Vox Controli. I'm really looking
forward to settle down in the embassy of Neu Demogyptica in your glorious
country.

First I have to apologize that the people of ND were so quiet for a long
time and could not answer your messages. All of your letters arrived, even
if they had to cross the ocean, but, alas!, our scribes found no time to
answer them, because they were forced to put away their plumes and take up
their swords instead to go to war. As you surely already heard, the
untrustworthy people from Lux Invita first invaded our country with their
warriors, frightening our farmers and disturbing our harvest seasen. In the
end, they killed our brave scout Thor in an ambush in No Man's Land, thus
forcing us to declare war on them.

This war goes on for some years now and the politicians and generals of Lux
Invicta have proven more wicked and selfish then we ever would have thought:
They rather prefered to burn down their cities, killing their own people
then allow us to liberate them and show the citizens the advantages of our
civilisation.

This is mostly the reasen why none of our scribes found the time to answer
your messages. Nevertheless, we still honour the friendship that Vox has
shown to us some ages before and we often think of you and your continent
which must be a continent of peace, without any malicious generals who burn
their own cities.

But let's stop this discussion of bloodshed and war and focus on more
important issues. As I said I am designated to be your new ambassador. I
will try my best to explain my people how your country functions and how
special your culture is and what they may be able to learn from the empire
of Vox Controli. As a matter of course, you can also always ask me to tell
you more from Neu Demogyptica and I will try to answer all your questions.

We're also very interested in how your relationship with Gathering Storm has
developed. We know very little of this nation. But as you told us you had
difficulties with them, my people look at them with suspicion. We hope that
everything is reassessed now on your continent and that you can prosper and
develop your society.

Finally, I wanted to talk with you about our tech-trade. Our scientists
finally discovered the secrets of Mysticism. They are behaving a little
bit... mysterious ... since then. Well... they had help from the scientists
from GoW... but as we honour the friendship between our two nations, we
still want to share with you the secrets of the numbers, called "Math".
Unless the scientists from GoW haven't already explained it to you. Please
note that we have our own system of counting, called the "Arabic numeral".
You might find it very useful, perhaps more useful than the numbers you used
before in your daily life. And definitly more convenient than the
complicated number system from GoW. If you already discovered the secret of
"Math" we still want to offer you our Arabic numerals as a gift: one = 1,
two = 2, three = 3, ... [etc.etc.]

My warmest regards to you, BetaHound, and to the glorious nation of Vox
Controli. I pray to the Mysterious Gods that our friendship will last
through the ages.

With sincerity
Louis, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

[Beta]

OK GUYS. HERE IS AN INTERESTING ONE!

Dear BetaHound,
Der Voxians,

the people from Neu Demogyptica are irritated and puzzled by the news that
came over the Great Ocean from the Palace of the Voice of Vox Controli.

Many of us still cannot believe that the Voxians which we believed to be our
partners and friends granted the people of Lux a hideout in one of your
cities without telling us one single word.

I honour your intention of "saving" a people without "taking sides" in a
war. It shows that you are a nation that despises bloodshed and is trying to
make this world a place where everybody can liver together in peace and
harmony.

But I totally disagree with your assumption, that by "saving" the Luxians,
you have not sided with one of the war-parties. Indeed, from the perception
of the people of Neu Demogyptica, you have taken the side of Lux.

Let me please repeat that we didn't wanted this war. We were prepared,
nevertheless. We experienced a long time of quarrels about borders and
scouts. A long time of negotiations where we learned that the people of Lux
can't be really trusted, that they are volatile in their opinions and frouzy
in their agreements. I know that Lux tells the same things about our
behaviour (although they're still lacking the proof). It is their right of
speech to do this. (Although I believe you have apparently made your own
experience with Lux to judge...) And I'm not telling you all this because I
want to defend a war that has already ended. I am
not arguing about "right" or "wrong" in this conflict. There never is in any
war. War ist always wrong. I'm just telling you that we were FORCED into
this war by Lux Invitca.

I'm telling you to explain you how the people of Neu Demogyptica feel. We
didn't want this war. We saw it coming. We prepared. And we spent much
ressources in building up an army; ressources we would have preferd to spent
for developement and culture.

It ist for this reason, that we expected reparations from the beginning from
Lux. Would they had given us a few of their cities and confirmed a better
behaviour for the future, this war would have been ended immediatly. As you
know, they didn't trusted us (the traitor always thinks that everyone wants
to betray him). They thought we wanted to erase them totally and burned
their cities. In the end, we got nothing. Lux exists no longer, but its
government could escape to your city.

It is for this reason, that the people of Neu Demogyptica don't agree at all
with your notion, that you didn't take "side". The people of Vox took side,
even if it didn't wanted to. They took side in offering Lux a chance to
escape without paying for the war they forced upon us.

There are some members of our parliament who even claim that Vox did this on
purpose to earn the treasury of Lux. I don't have to tell you that I don't
think a single second about this, and I know that my government also doesn't
pay attention to this voices. I know that you saved Lux because you wanted
to show your nobility and charity for all the people of this world.

But nevertheless: I am sure that Lux paid you for your kindness and that in
the end the treasury fell in your hands when you re-took Portia. Now that I
have depicted the situation in which the people of Neu Demogyptica are and
how they feel about your intervention I leave it up to you to decide what to
do next.

This letter won't be published to our parliament. If the people of Vox would
hand us out the treasury of Lux, all of the members of the parliament will
think that it was the idea from Vox from the beginning to save Lux, but to
force them at the same time to pay the people of Neu Demogyptica for the war
they have entangled us. They will believe in your nobility and your
kind-heartness as you published it in your announcement. And we can continue
with our relationship in harmony and prospertity.

It is also with irritation that I learned that Vox apparently has given a
part of the Lux-money to the people of GoW who joined the war for their own
reasons and also very late, when it was nearly already over. I cannot really
understand why they claim reparations but I am sure they have good reasons
and you can explain them to me. If that really means that the money of Lux
is already spent, I think you could also show your goodwill by sharing the
secret of literature with us.

But as I said: I am not begging for reparations. It is up to you to decide.
But remember what I have told you about how the people of Neu Demogyptica
feel. I definitly don't want that the glorious nation of Vox which culture I
begun to love will stay in the memory of Neu Demogyptica as the ones who
have allied with the untrustworthy Luxians.

And I still have to tell you that I am puzzled why you didn't told us about
your agreement with Lux, feigning ignorance instead and asking who the war
develops. They were out of reach for our armies, we coudn't (and wouldn't)
have done nothing but would have waited for their reparations instead. The
people of Neu Demogyptica would have totally agreed with the plan of Lux to
immigrate to another country and to begin a "new life". They never planned
the destruction of the Luxian civilization. But I am sure there is an answer
for your secrets.

I wish the people of Vox Controli all the best and may they take the right
decision and continue their work for a peaceful and better world.

Sincerely
Louis, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

[Beta]

Proposed response - is everyone Ok with the literature and 40 gold, and the baring of our soul a little. Should help cement solid realtions.

Louis of Neu Demogyptica

Your recent letter has supplied us with much food for thought. Perhaps it would be best if I explained recent events from our perspective.

Earlier in the game, Lux Invicata had suggested the idea of us providing them with a city for one turn, in order to make contact with Gathering Storm. This was prior to writing, and the ability to trade communications with other civs. We declined, as to be honest, we could not be 100% sure of Lux's intentions. Also - as mentioned in my previous letter, we had met Lux over a straight of water which separates our continent, Estonia, from yours. We had one early trade deal which did not go well, and from our perspective, Lux did not honor their part of the bargain. Sound familiar?

When their demise was imminent, Lux contacted us again at the very last minute. I have found out afterwards that they were trying to reach a similar deal with the 'rental' of a city with both RolePlay and GoW. But they declined.

Despite our earlier issues with Lux, our intent in saving them was humanitarian. We did not want to see a team exit the game so early. I know the amout of time and personal energy which has gone into each of the teams, and acknowledging that sooner or later teams would be eliminated, it just seemed too soon. Also, as we were approached at the last minute, we had only a few hours of time to reflect on the decision, and then it was done. A hasty accord was drawn up - and more attention should have been paid to that. But we figured we could make it work.

It would have worked if Luc Invicta - and in particularly Trip - would have simply laid low for awhile. Long enough to get a settler and a galley, and emigrate to either an island or a less populated part of the world. However, there were issues with the accord which had been drawn up quickly, some issues with our neighbours to the south, and trading issues with RolePlay and GoW given that Trip was sill actively wheeling and dealing. This caused constant irritation and 'fire-fighting' for us, his benefactors and saviours. He was alienating civs which had been our trading partners. There had been previous votes in the Voxian senate regarding ending the whole affair - they had mixed results, and we laboured on. In the end, it became too much.The final senate vote was unanimous.

That being said, I personally feel very sad and somewhat guilty about what has happened, as do the members of my team. We are fairly sombre right now. I appreciate that this is simply a 'game' but some of the 'fun' has left temporarily. In many respects, I wish it was Neu D which had ended the civilization of Lux. You had noble and righteous reasons for doing so. To us it feels like we killed a helpless refugee which we had agreed to harbor.

But what is done is done. And the world moves on - without Lux Invicta.

Which brings us to the key point in your letter - the question of reparations. We did in fact obtain the Luxian treasury - this was provided to us before the city move. It consisted of 150 gold. Half of that amount - 75 gold - was provided to Gathering Storm to calm their concerns over the move. The remainder stayed with Vox. It is a moot point as to whether it was Voxian or Luxian gold with which we are conluding the transaction with GoW, although I fully understand your position on this matter.

Vox did not embark on this 'adventure' for economic gain. Yes, there were benefits which were to accrue to Vox over time, but as I have said, the accord was 'flawed', and the future returns doubtful. In addition, Vox incurred the costs associated with 'loaning' the city to Lux for the number of turns involved.

But after considering the matter, there is a strong moral logic to your point of reparations. Vox does not want to appear as the 'weasel' who benefited from your miltary efforts and the opportunity cost you have incurred. Therfore, we would like to offer Neu Demogyptica not only Literature, but also 40 gold, which is over half of the Lux treasury which remains with Vox. We trust you will see this as fair and reasonable. Vox Controli values its reputation as a noble and honorable civilization. We hope this demostrates that.

We would also like to commit to a stronger friendship and economic partnership, now that a more peaceful era has arrived. We have not communicated much in the past. We should change that for the future.

I look forward to hearing from you on this matter. And my sincerest regards to you and the leaders and citizens of Neu Demogyptica.

BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

[Jon Miller]

less soul baring

fine with the deal

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

no wait

you aren't talking about a trade?

than no

why should we give them stuff, unless it was for a deal?

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

if we gave them stuff, for an alliance, that would be fair

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I guess I totally am against giving tribute to a nation which has no hold over us

we gave some to GS, but we have relations with them we want to keep up, as well as they have a hold on us (being stronger in the south, and us having no military)

the same is not true with ND, we would be giving for no reason, but 'better' relations

but if we are just giving them what they think they are owed, it will not result in a beneifit to us (in that they will like us more), when it comes time to war again, they would be just as likely to war with us as anyone else

Jon Miller

[Wittlich]

Yes, I think Jon has a point there. Beta, how about if you modify your letter to state:

"Therfore, we would like to offer Neu Demogyptica not only Literature, but also 40 gold, which is over half of the Lux treasury which remains with Vox - In return we ask for an alliance between our two nations. We trust you will see this as fair and reasonable. Vox Controli values its reputation as a noble and honorable civilization. We hope this demostrates that."

[Jon Miller]

no discussion of GS ay all

that would totally tip our hand about the nature of our dealings with GS

we have no reason to bleive that ND wants to allie with us, nor that they would be a useful ally

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

nice Witt

if all the GS stuff and most the Lux stuff is removed that would be good

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

having an alliance over the straight would be a good thing I think

than we wouldn't need GS as bad when we attempt to move over the straight

(as long as ND is not the nation right over the straight)

one of the considerations, is that to me, GoW seems to be the most freindly, while RP and ND seem to be the least freindly

that is why I would think that ND might be a better target than GoW (I think that RP is too far to be our target)

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Beta

who do you think that NDs allies are?

Jon Miller

[Beta]

They have not spoken well of GoW. They feel they were opportunistic regarding the war with Lux. I think RP just stayed out of the way. So you may be right - ND may be closer to RP. But then if RP researched literature, how come ND doesn't have it? They can't be that close.

I understand your points about the letter. I will modify. Thanks for the wording Witt. Guess I am still hurting a bit over the Lux matter. My spirits are picking up though.

[Beta]

Draft #2. Does this cover off the recommendations made earlier. I still want to keep it somewhat from the heart.

Louis of Neu Demogyptica

Your recent letter has supplied us with much food for thought. Perhaps it would be best if I first explained recent events from our perspective.

Earlier in the game, we had met Lux over a straight of water which separates our continent, Estonia, from yours. We had one early trade deal which did not go well, and from our perspective, Lux did not honor their part of the bargain. Sound familiar?

When their demise was imminent, Lux contacted us again at the very last minute. I have found out afterwards that they were trying to reach a similar deal with the 'rental' of a city with both RolePlay and GoW. But they declined.

Despite our earlier issues with Lux, our intent in saving them was humanitarian. We did not want to see a team exit the game so early. I know the amout of time and personal energy which has gone into each of the teams, and acknowledging that sooner or later teams would be eliminated, it just seemed too soon. Also, as we were approached at the last minute, we had only a few hours of time to reflect on the decision, and then it was done. A hasty accord was drawn up.

As to why we did not inform the rest of the world... We thought that Lux after its close call would like to remain quiet and out of sight. We thought that would be best for all involved. Lux clearly thought differently.

From the start there were issues with the accord, and then some issues with our neighbours to the south, and trading issues with RolePlay and GoW given that Trip was sill actively wheeling and dealing. This caused constant irritation and 'fire-fighting' for us, his benefactors and saviours. He was alienating civs which had been our trading partners. In the end, it became too much. After much deliberation, the final senate vote was unanimous.

That being said, our team is fairly sombre right now. In many respects I wish it was Neu D which had ended the civilization of Lux. You had noble and righteous reasons for doing so. To us it feels like we killed a helpless refugee who we had agreed to harbor.

But what is done is done. And the world moves on - without Lux Invicta.

Which brings us to the key point in your letter - the question of reparations. Vox did not embark on this 'adventure' for economic gain. Yes, there were benefits which were to accrue to Vox over time, but as I have said, the accord was 'flawed', and the future returns doubtful. In addition, Vox incurred the costs associated with 'loaning' the city to Lux for the number of turns involved.

But after considering the matter, there is a strong moral logic to your point of reparations. However, we would like to take it one step further. Therfore, we would like to offer Neu Demogyptica not only Literature, but also 40 gold, which is over half of the Lux treasury which remains with Vox, In return we ask for an alliance between our two nations. A commitment to a stronger friendship and economic partnership, now that a more peaceful era has arrived. We have not communicated much in the past. We should change that for the future.

We trust you will see this as fair and reasonable. Vox Controli values its reputation as a noble and honorable civilization. We hope this demostrates that.

I look forward to hearing from you on this matter. And my sincerest regards to you and the leaders and citizens of Neu Demogyptica.

BetaHound, Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli