GS FA thread 1

[Beta]

My response:

Hi Vel. Anything to do with the re-strengthening of Vox we are interested in. If the deal is giving us back North Estonia for 100 gold - well - make it 80 and we have a deal. OK?

On a more serious note - our treaty with Lego leaves us a fair bit of autonomy. It was quite generous and noble of them - with obviously a bit of self-interest. Some tech trading and foreign affairs stuff. And we can't trade maps. But we are still an independent nation. And we are growing again - albeit slowly.

So - what do you have in mind? We noted with interest your public message to Vox and Lego, which Witt acknowledged. So, I guess the answer is yes - we are keen to hear what's up.

Beta ... of Vox.

[Beta]

Vel's proposal:

Beta

That sounds perfect! Sounds to me then, that you have all the autonomy needed to have this conversation.

Keep in mind that at this point, this is merely you and me talking. My teammates know sorta kinna what I'm about to propose to you, and broadly support the effort, which means that you and I can make tentative deals and if you're interested, I can get whatever you need to make it happen, pushed through the GS council.

As you are no doubt aware, there's a big, bloody war brewing on Bob....which means that Bob is ripe for the picking. An enterprising Civ with a standing army of Immortals could make some juicy acquisitions on Bob, especially if you had some help in financing some additional transport ships to get your army over yonder.

I note too, that there's a spiffy little Island near Bob (which I have taken to calling "Yonder Isle" with a city on it. Not exactly prime real estate, but its capture by Vox would facilitate two important goals:

First, it would give the Voxian army a difficult-to-get-to base of operations near Bob from which to springboard future incursions and expansion opportunities, and second, it would provide the seeds of growth for your nation.

What I propose is simple....take advantage of the chaos on Bob to grow your nation. ND and GoW are pouring their armies south toward us with all possible speed....which means their underbelly is exposed....an underbelly which would be easy to strike at from a base on Yonder Isle.

Some good city sites up that way, and GS would welcome your presence on Bob, fully acknowledging your right to be there, and supporting your forces in their war effort, both directly (by luring them away from your targets) and in-directly, by subsidizing construction of ships and training of troops to get you into the fight.

Add to that Lego's sworn protection of you and yours (which sorely blunts ND and GoW's options against you), and the opportunity this situation presents your nations becomes....strikingly clear...

Your thoughts?

-Chris

[HarryH]

Our treaty with Lego prohibits us from declaring war without Lego's approval. Given that Lego wants GS to get bogged down in a costly war, I doubt they will give approval. We will not know until we ask.

Our standing army of Immortals is small. They will not last long. I think that island is mostly hills and mountains. The fighting will be tough. It is possible that island is lightly defended so we might be able to take it quick with the right forces. After that, I would expect GoW to redirect some of their forces against us. We would need to have some defensive force on Voxtavia and upgrade our spears to pikes.

[Rhothaerill]

Just my opinion, but we're not really ready for war against anyone, much less a team that has most likely been building for a war for a while and will also most likely be in their rider-triggered golden age unless they triggered it earlier with wonders.

And Harry brought up the good point that Lego will most likely veto any war effort.

I'm against a war right now. We need time to build forces, not get them involved in a costly war that won't really do us much good and could do us a lot of harm.

[Beta]

I full agree. But it would be interesting to see what they are proposing and what they will offer. I have forwarded this to vondrack of Lego, for their input. I expect to hear back shortly.

(sorry - should've posted this fact in the Lego thread.)

[HarryH]

GoW has no wonders so they started thier GA with their riders attacking RP and GS. They are still early in their GA.

Using our production to produce units would also take production away from needed improvements.

Here is an evil thought. Would GoW be willing to sell those island cities? We get GS to send us a bunch of cash for rushing units. We send a force to the island and make some pics to send to GS. We buy the city from GoW and start a war with them so in the game it shows that we are at war. GS will see the city change hands, see that we are at war in the game, and with the pics we make of our landing they will conclude that we were successful in taking the city. We continue that for the second city. We give some of the cash from GS to GoW for the cities and keep the rest to rush improvements. This would require another Operation MacArthur type campaign to convince GS we are really at war with GoW.

[Rhothaerill]

Now there's an interesting thought. You have a devious mind Harry.

It would take a lot of cash on GS's part to get first us and then GoW to commit to something like that We'd have to convince GoW that is in their best interests to essentially gift us a city (I would think one would do, and then we could say we were beaten back trying to take the second one). The main problem would be that GoW is in their golden age so they might not want to give up a city just to pull a fast one on GS.

But it's definitely something worth pursuing if GoW accepts it.

[Beta]

I like it!

I can see the Voxian Minister of Information is about to come out of retirement.

In fact - given my history with GS, it might be best if someone else handles this.

The plan will need further thought.

[HarryH]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
Now there's an interesting thought. You have a devious mind Harry.

Always try to find a way to make it look like they are getting what they want but allowing you to get more than they think they are giving.

It would take a lot of cash on GS's part to get first us and then GoW to commit to something like that We'd have to convince GoW that is in their best interests to essentially gift us a city (I would think one would do, and then we could say we were beaten back trying to take the second one). The main problem would be that GoW is in their golden age so they might not want to give up a city just to pull a fast one on GS.

But it's definitely something worth pursuing if GoW accepts it.

There would be a benefit to GoW to do the trade to keep us from doing it like GS wants us to. Those cities are small (size 2 and 3) with land much like ours so they are slow growers. GoW would not lose too much from the GA. If they do not go for the permanent trade we might be able to work out a temporary trade, something like we get the city for 10 turns or so and then GoW gets it back as if they counter attacked and we lost island.

The downside is this, once we contact GoW its either they agree or we don't do it. We will have tipped the plan so it will be harder for us to do it militarily if GS makes us a great offer.

[Jon Miller]

hmm

so we are going to be the official devious Civ?

that will make our allies trust us less also...

Jon Miller

[HarryH]

I always try to think of devious things, it doesn't mean I follow through on all of them. It depends on what the long term goals are. Risks -vs- rewards. In this case, we have a desire to see GS not win the game, so I am thinking of ways to further that goal.

[Beta]

Originally posted by HarryH
In this case, we have a desire to see GS not win the game, so I am thinking of ways to further that goal.

oh oh. Don't let this get out in public, ot the flame wars will start anew. First GoW, and then Vox.

Although I'm sure GS isn't that naive to think we don't want our land back. Which makes me think there may be an alterior motive to their request.

Anyway - got a long response from Lego - vondrack - on thsi matter. I have posted it in the Lego thread.

[Jon Miller]

see for me

if we don't win the game, I don't care who does (well, I have a slight preference for Lego)

so I am not about screwing over GS, I want what is good for us (And for a lesser extant, Lego)

Jon Miller

[Beta]

to Vel - we should decide soon if we want to do this. If yes - a chat with GoW would be in order.

Hi Vel - we will get back to you shortly on this. To be honest - I sort of thought this would die an early death on the discussion table. But, it would appear our appetite for 'adventure' has not been exhausted, and this is still under very active discussion. The biggest concern is how to do this while 'respecting' our now close relationship with Lego and their neutrality in this matter. Talk to you soon ... Beta.

[HarryH]

Sent to Vel:

As Beta has mentioned to you the GS proposal for Vox to get involved in the war on Bob is being discussed with interest. I have, ah, volunteered to be the contact for the discussions on this proposal. For starters, we would like to find out what you have in mind.

I am typically away on weekends from Friday evening through Sunday night. I check Apolyton and my e-mail regularly during the week. If you need to contact someone during the weekend I suggest you keep in touch with Beta.