Diplomacy: Analysis and Strategy

[Thrumble]

I was playing China this weekend and hadn't realized (I knew it but it hadn't sunk in to my thinking) that the Militaristic trait gives GoW cheap barracks AND faster promotion.

Now, from what I've heard about Lux threatening an undefended city, and my own observation of the delayed build up in their military strength I believe they built barracks in all of their cities BEFORE they built units.

This means that while they may have less units that ND, their units are all starting out as Veterans. One promotion, and they have an increased chance of that, and they are Elites.

Once they are Elite, they start running into the Great Leader zone. Now, they are warmongers so I would imagine they couldn't care less about Great Leaders, but if it was me I would be looking to rush some Wonders.

[Aidun]

Togas, why wouldn't we be play ND's helper in need? ND can remember us as the ones who came to their need when they needed it.

We can't rely on Lux, I think this might become our downfall.

ND has showed themselves to be relyable: they have still not declared war on Lux, in spite of all the threats from Lux's side. They seem patient and rational to me, something I favor above the opportunistic and irrational way Lux is doing.

We would do better not to renew our alliance with Lux, as señor Tamali is saying too. We can of course sign a non-agression pact to show our good intentions to Lux and to secure our safety.

Furthermore, cancelling the alliance shall also be a sign to Lux. They seem not to understand that the way they are acting in the foreign affairs is unwarranted.
If we do not cancel this alliance they will think we support their way of dealing in foreign affairs, which is certainly not what we want.
If they survive this potential war and show themselves to be more relyable, we can always renew this old alliance, but for the time being it would be the wrong sign on the wrong moment.


I strongly discourage your current decision.


Please take these considerations to you before you make your final conclusion.

Aidun Cian to Older

[Togas]

A few notes:

ND is far more of a danger to Spain in the future than Lux Invicata is. ND is the strongest nation on our continent, our neighbor, and has an express interest in our luxury rich western region.

ND is a much smarter opponent than Lux Invicata and a better player in this game.

ND is far less active in trade proposals and negotiations, and act independently in nearly all situations. They are more difficult to manipulate, predict, and understand.

Lux, on the other hand, is Trip. Trip is the team. Trip makes all the decisions, plays all the turns, and pretty much runs the show. Trip is easy to understand and Trip's lies are easy enough to distinguish from his truths. He's predictable, maliable, and always able to be questioned about his actions and motives.

When playing Diplomacy (those of you who know the game will understand where I'm coming from) if you have two neighbors, you side with the one you can influence, predict, and control. You side with the weaker one, so that you will be the one who ends up with the greater spoils.

--Togas

[Aidun]

I understand your view. And you're right that a weaker neighbor is easy to influence, predict and control. That's just the point. Lux is the weaker one, but we haven't been able to influence, predict and control them, that my whole problem. Or would you say that the way they are dealing in foreign affairs is because of our influence and control on them?

This is why I suggest to side with ND now. I agree that ND is far more difficult to control, but they have been patient with Lux until now.
Yes, they get angered now, who would not? Trip would already have attacked them if ND was the one bothering the other.
ND is more difficult to influence, to control, but I'd rather be safe WITH ND than fighting AGAINST ND.

When the peace has settled again, we can think the situation over again Togas. Your idea is perfect for the peaceful situation, but in war I'd rather be on the winning side.

Aidun Cian to Older

[ThePlagueRat]

Originally posted by Togas
Trip is easy to understand and Trip's lies are easy enough to distinguish from his truths. He's predictable, maliable, and always able to be questioned about his actions and motives.
--Togas

Fun reading this...
Now I can vaguely recall his Bush.jr. avatar.
Perhaps it did suit his style?
Anyway, I do agree. ND is certain to be competetive with us.
To avoid being backstabbed by them, we can use this nice Diplomacy game approach. As long as we trade stuff with them, they might be nice to us... but we can never be too sure!

IMO Diplomacy is one of the good games.
BTW: Another favorite is Republic of Rome.(same genre)

[Hot Mustard]

C'mon guys - War should not hold up diplomacy and trade.

We know have contact with Vox and GS - and we can trade the following to them (as of 1700BC save):

Vox: Contact with ND, Writing
GS: Contact with Lux,GoW,ND, Mysticism, Warrior Code

Let's get to work on reaping as much trade benefits from these new contacts before GoW does.

[jdjdjd]

Yes we should continue to trade.

We should now wake up and realize that ND & GoW will destroy us next - or try to. So we should trade with them and be friendly to them but never ever tell them anything. We should let their stupity in invading Lux at this juncture keep them off our scent - i.e., we REX and fill our northern border and we continue to build our military.

BTW - will you now listen to the words of my grandfather who warned that ND & GoW had made a pact - which meand GoW has continued to lie to us.

[ruby_maser]

Originally posted by dejon
Let's get to work on reaping as much trade benefits from these new contacts before GoW does.

I agree

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by jdjdjd
Yes we should continue to trade.

We should now wake up and realize that ND & GoW will destroy us next - or try to. So we should trade with them and be friendly to them but never ever tell them anything. We should let their stupity in invading Lux at this juncture keep them off our scent - i.e., we REX and fill our northern border and we continue to build our military.

BTW - will you now listen to the words of my grandfather who warned that ND & GoW had made a pact - which meand GoW has continued to lie to us.

I agree.... REX and then use core cities to build up our military while our other cities continue the REX. Madrid only has 2 settlers left and than can use its rather impressive production to pump out veteran swordsmen and veteran horsemen (which, given the time to build the 2 settlers, should be approximate timing to linking iron).

[DAVOUT]

The last message from ND is not really friendly.

For the time being, I think that instead of answering in kind, we could make some jokes with their insolence as if we did not even notice that they were rude.

[Togas]

Resurrected this thread. Let's get back to discussing diplomatic matters here. Keep the Diplomacy PM thread clear of commentary.

On maps: Legoland and Vox has been unwilling to trade maps. I don't see any way we're going to get other teams' maps unless they get over the paranoia involved with revealing it.

Furthermore, we have an agreement with GoW that if either of us gets Legoland or Vox's WMs, that we give it to the other team.

I'm extremely curious about how ND is going to feel about GoW buying that city instead of following through with the war effort vs Vox. I doubt GoW & ND have anything more than neutrality and I believe this may be an idea time to meet and explain to ND the efforts we were undergoing to help them fight the war on Vox ... inform them that we were sending warriors and horsemen north, and that we had posted a warrior on the east coast to watch for future ships. ND will be able to verify these things from looking at the save.

I think we need to get ND to see how GoW has betrayed the war effort to profit themselves. I don't want to see ND and GoW at this time, but I do want to keep the two distant ... and keep them both closer to Spain than to each other.

--Togas

[astrologix]

Imagine that Vox is going next to settle our spices site ...

What if GoW has negociated that with them and ND :

1. Vox give GoW their city
2. Vox send galleys south to settle our lands
3. We declare war against Vox (our troops go to the south)
4. GoW attacks us at the north in an alliance with ND ?

[Aidun]

Geesh No, this is getting complicated, but we'd better invest in military. We have to determine how many spearmen we want in every city in case we are attacked by Vos as well as GoW. We should have scout to the north that scout the lands, if we spot GoW troops south of Anagraqmascus - Stonedina line, we have'll have a word with them, contact ND and eventually decare war. The best defence is to attack!

Aidun Cian the older

Aidun

[Nuclear Winter]

I do believe that mr astrologix´s purposal do makes a lot of sense.
GOW has already indicated some signs of hostility toward us in mnay declarations. We should think seriously about this. Vox wants to use their Immortals, and GOW wants to go to war, of course, if they can win. Vox´s UU is almost getting obsolette, and if they attacked us from 2 distinct fronts we´d have some hard time fending all of them off, even with such a great army as the one we have.

[History Guy]

Senor Astrologix makes sense.

Perhaps the Neu Demogypticans may be willing to ally with the Warmongers again, but this is where I may defer. The Arabs did not ally with China when fighting Turkey. Instead, the Chinese attacked Turkey without warning, just to get extra land for themselves. I do not believe that they impressed Arabia by that action, and I do think that the Arabs would dearly like to see the Warmongers go away. They may be afraid that if they allow the Chinese to go after us, they might get our iron cities, and that would be a terrible danger to Arabia. I think, instead, the Chinese would ride in and destroy themselves if they tried it.

A more realistic threat, in my opinion, is Arabia.

Neu Thebo est delenda!

We must kill them, sir, every last man of them (sort of), while we have the advantage. The Arabs will soon have the power to destroy us with their Ansars. We cannot allow them this power. We stand at the brink here. We must act now.

King Togas, the glorious lady of Hispania stands precauriously on the balance, her feet barely supported by a thin rocky walk (like Giant's Crossway). On either side of this causeway is a deep cavern, a huge dark hole, of which there is seemingly no bottom. It is a long drop into darkness. Will Lady Spain totter, and fall this way? Can we maintain our balance, cross this thin line, and make it to the other side, where the sun never sets? Or will Hispania, blinded by the lack of the sun, fall headlong to her destruction?

Fernand de History Guy Calamari