Diplomacy: Reports, Instructions, PMs

[Hot Mustard]

a post from Togas (from MZ's site)

The following must be done, in this order:

1) Get Vox to "pay" us to attack GS. They should give us Engineering in exchange for us declaring war on GS. If they refuse, we MIGHT still attack GS if they'll give us a SUBSTANTIAL discount on Engineering. If they refuse, we just buy Engineering and stay neutral.

2) Get a Defense Pact signed with GoW. This must be done before any other agreements are made with them.

2A) If GoW does not sign a Defense Pact, or this whole thing falls apart, we extend the Non-Agg with ND for another 20 turns.

3) Once the pact is in place, we coordinate with GoW to send 2 gallies with 4 units. They give us their map so that we can get to GS faster. If they will not give us their map (try very hard for it), then we can accept a screenshot showing the western coastline to GS.

4) We rush our 2nd galley when reasonable. We fill our 2 gallies with 2 swords, 2 horsemen.

5) We coordinate with GoW to attack different cities on the same turn to maximise our chances of doing damage to GS.

--Togas

[Hot Mustard]

a post from BigFree (from MZ's site)

Sounds good Togas.

Messages 1 and 2 have been relayed to Vox and GoW respectively. With Poly comming up shortly (it is showing signs of life), we may be on track soon to get replies from each.

[Nuclear Winter]

Message received from BetaHound, regarding the message I sent him,as ordered by Togas, during the Days without Apolyton.

The Eclipse
Nuclear Winterius III

My dear friend. How are you? I trust the people of Spain and their esteemed leader Togas survived the recent eclipse which encompassed the known world. It was a strange time - with little contact bewteen people - and time moving in slow motion. It is good that it has passed. I can only assume that it was the power of the Almight and the faith of his servants of the Catholic Church which removed this curse from the world. e thank you for this.

To business. During this unusual phenomenom, we did receive one message from you - as follows:

"My friend Beta,
Our King is considering an attack on the common enemy,
the GS, in order to help our friends from Vox Controli.
IF we did this, we would coordinate our efforts with GoW
in an attempt to create another frontline thus dividing
GS´s army. We have been discussing the Engineering deal
quite a bit. We are concerned as our economy is not
strong right now, however, our soldiers are, so we think
that engineering could be offered as a gift to us in
such an event.(By the way,Our military counselors also
asked if the Voxian Army will attack the fortress named
as Arashi, or what directions will Vox take, so that we
can orientate our Plans).
Regarding trade, we would like to know if there is any
sort of deal arranged between VOx Controli and Glory of
War for Feudalism. If not, We would like to offer it as
soon as we got it for the amount of 75 golds.
Please respond as soon as possible,as we will need to
start making lots of preparations before starting the
military action and every wasted turn puts off our
invasion additional turns.
Your Friend,
Nuclearis Winterius the III
Ambassador to Vox Controli"

We are overjoyed to hear of your planned involvement in this great crusade against the infidels of the Storm. And we do appreciate your monetary situation. If there was significant involvement on your behalf, we would be willing to provide engineering for no gold when completed. Significant involement is defined as 3-4 galleys providing troops and reinforcements. One or two galleys appearing soon would be appreciated. Please let us know of your plans and we can co-ordinate with Voxian and allied troops.

As to Arashi - our plan is to bypass the city, isolating it and hopefully trapping the defenders inside it. We have significant reinforcements arriving soon which can assault the smaller cities - after they have been isolated and the infrastructure destroyed. We are also reinforcing our east coast force in the mountains - and it is currently tying down considerable GS forces.

As to feudalism, I regret to inform you that we have previously reached a deal for feudalism with GoW. Thank-you for considering us - but we are committed.

I look forward to your response - and to being brothers in arms in this crusade.

My deepest regards - Beta the Bold.
__________________
Founder of the Havamal - the true spirit of the Vikings!

"V" .... Vox Controli. One Voice. To Victory.

[BigFree]

Start of MasterZen buffer: Fri Apr 25 22:37:55 2003
Session Ident: MasterZen (Master@dup-200-64-70-143.prodigy.net.mx)
[22:05] BigFree> BTW, we at RP are in desperate need for the map/route to GS terr.
[22:06] BigFree> We saw/heard that you guys landed on GS!!! Great
[22:07] MasterZen> It'll get better
[22:08] MasterZen> do you have galleys now?
[22:08] BigFree> We want to commit at leat 4 units, most likely 6 to this war effort.
[22:08] BigFree> not yet
[22:08] BigFree> soonm though
[22:08] BigFree> we agreed to rush the second one though as you suggested
[22:09] MasterZen> we will probably tell you tomorrow or 2 days at the most if the MPP treaty is accepted
[22:09] MasterZen> actually it IS accepted, we just want to make some slight modifications and pass them
on to you
[22:09] BigFree> good, I see no reason why it wouldn't, it's a good move for all three of us.
[22:10] BigFree> but you have to agree to selling us Feud, now that you are at war with GS, this
shouldn't be a problem
[22:12] BigFree> Did your team also approve the Defensive Pact in regards to protecting ourselves from
ND?
[22:12] MasterZen> yes, that's what we've approved
[22:12] MasterZen> as sent by Togas, with the modifications I have just told you
[22:13] MasterZen> we need one last review and we'll send it
[22:13] BigFree> did you see my message about Feud?
[22:13] MasterZen> I'm sorry if we took a while, just that this whole new Republic transition has made
us very busy with our internal affairs
[22:13] MasterZen> yes
[22:13] BigFree> So, we going to get it from you soon?
[22:14] MasterZen> yes, very soon
[22:14] BigFree> cool
[22:15] BigFree> can you reveal what's going on in Estonia?
[22:15] MasterZen> I'd say 1 or 2 days, but as it is, it's MOSTLY approved
[22:15] MasterZen> we don't know much, trust me, we just landed
[22:15] BigFree> What are your Horsemen going to be doing?
[22:15] MasterZen> whaddaya think
[22:15] BigFree> LOL!
[22:15] BigFree> cup of tea perhaps
[22:15] BigFree>
[22:16] MasterZen> cup of tea, raze a few cities, rape conquer and pillage..
[22:16] BigFree> I thought you could role play a little and say you had to unload for a bit cause the
Galles sprung a leak!
[22:16] MasterZen> that would have been interesting
[22:16] BigFree> to say the least
[22:17] BigFree> I bet they feel betrayed
[22:17] BigFree> Just wait till they learn we are in on it too!
[22:17] MasterZen> do I give a ****?? hahahaha
[22:17] MasterZen> re:betrayal
[22:17] BigFree> nope, neither do we!!HAHA
[22:18] BigFree> I need that evil maniacal laught thing, how does it go?

[22:19] MasterZen> BUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
[22:19] BigFree> oh yeah..
[22:19] BigFree> BUAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
[22:20] BigFree> thanks
[22:20] MasterZen> went well with my Lord Farquaad avatar... perhaps I should change it back
[22:20] BigFree> hehe
End of MasterZen buffer Fri Apr 25 22:37:55 2003

[Togas]

Urgent!

Get a defense pact signed with GoW this weekend. If we get to turn 99 without one in place, we MUST immediately negotiate with ND and extend our Non-Agg treaty.

Get Vox to agree to give us Engineering if we promise to send at least 3 gallies full of units to fight GS.

GOW has given us their map. That's a very good sign that they want us to cooperate with the Estonia War.

GoW should now be willing to sell us Feudalism early. See if they will. The last price GF quoted us was 75g.

--Togas

[BigFree]

Talked with MasterZen of GoW tonight about our deal and why they offered us their map, but didn't offer it "accepted."

[20:27] BigFree> Can we talk PTWDG stuff?
[20:27] MasterZen> sure
[20:27] BigFree> cool
[20:27] MasterZen> BTW, I'm sending you tomorrow morning the treaty
[20:27] BigFree> really
[20:27] MasterZen> problem is GF was away for drill this weekend
[20:27] BigFree> ah
[20:28] MasterZen> I just want him to ok it and its off to you guys
[20:28] BigFree> You guys offered us your map on the last turn without accepting it
[20:29] MasterZen> I wasn't aware of that...
[20:30] BigFree> we didn't know what to think, so we just hit "accept" thinking you were giving us the plans to be able ot invade GS
[20:33] MasterZen> I'll ask GF... it couldn't have been a mistake though, I mean, you don't accidentally open the diplo screen and trade a map
[20:33] BigFree> no, not usually
[20:33] well, now that you have the map...
[20:34] BigFree> how'd your horsemen fair in Estonia?
[20:37] BigFree> We don't have the map yet, you guys need to hit "accept" also, that was the 'weird' part. If it was just to let us know what was going on as far as where we could safely move our Galley's then whomever sent it should have just sent it "accepted" instead of waiting for it to come back to you guys first. Unless who ever did it was waiting for something in return?
[20:38] BigFree> But we never discussed anytthing like that, so I'm confused as to what has happened and why.
[20:38] MasterZen> let me ask GF... right now, hope he's back
[20:38] BigFree> ok
[22:19] BigFree> MZ, did GF ever come back on-line?
[22:22] MasterZen> nope... I posted though

We'll have till Monday morning/afternnon PST

[BigFree]

MZ went off-line for a bit then came back on, and I then asked again.....

[00:26] BigFree> make sure you get back to me tommorow MZ, about our Pact involving ND, we need that before anything else. Thanks.
[00:26] MasterZen> yep, don't worry you'll get it tomorrow
[00:26] BigFree> thanks man!

[BigFree]

Finally we have the proposal back from Gow. They made two changes, minor, but they are fine. We can extend this deal at another time in the future or make another one dealing with some devious plans for ND, as MasterZen has alluded too numerous times.


========================================
To Togas and BigFree of Spain:

The following is our revised draft resolution for a Mutual Protection Pact between our two glorious nations:


DEFENSE PACT BETWEEN THE GLORY OF WAR AND SPAIN:

1) In the event that either party to this agreement is attacked by Neu Demoglyptica, the other party shall immediately declare war on Neu Demoglyptica and shall
commit the majority of their military towards the conquest or destruction of Neu Demoglyptica.

2) Once the war has begun the leaders of both nations shall meet, exchange combat and spy information, and attempt to cooperate as much as possible in
the joint war effort.

3) Neither party may negotiate a separate peace with Neu Demoglpytica. Peace with Neu Demoglyptica must be agreed on by all parties.

4) This pact shall last for 30 turns upon which it may be renegotiated.



You will notice 2 major differences in this version, first of all, we did not agree to your second parragraph whic originally was:

Should Neu Demoglyptica settle in areas that are claimed by either party, and should the offended party declare war on Neu Demoglyptica, the other party to this pact must also declare war and shall commit the majority of their military towards the conquest or destruction of Neu Demoglyptica.


The reason for this is that we want to avoid at any costs any negotiation of a border treaty with ND which would be necessary to define which areas are claimed by each side. ND has been rather icy lately and a border agreement at this stage will most likely make them even more hostile, which is something we want to avoid, and I'm sure your team would too as it would also have to do the same. Also, it would make ND feel "cornered" at the fact that its two neighbors will appear to want to limit their territory. Right now our priority is the Vox-GS war, we wish to avoid confict with ND as soon as that war is resolved.

Also, we changed the length of the agreement from 100 to 30 years, as we feel 100 years is a far too long timespan, and things may change drastically. 30 years will secure us during the estimated length of the Vox-GS war upon which time we may plan a much more detailed agreement regarding Spain and The Glory of War's role in the future of Bob.

We hope this treaty is satisfactory to your great nation, and hope it can be approved as soon as possible. On the other hand, we would like to mention that the delay in its approval was caused by our government's transition, hopefully this has been resolved and we expect all future diplomatic agreements to be handled at a much brisker pace.

From my part, and in the name of The Glory of War, we wish Spain the best of luck in its endeveours and hope that this treaty is only the beginning of a strong and beneficial relationship.

Yours truly

Master Zen
Consul of Foreign Affairs for The Glory of War

[Togas]

received this PM from betahound:

The War
Greetings Togas. I hope you don't mind me writing you directly, but Vox is interested in a response to our recent letter regarding Spain's involvement in the war.

We are making arrangements with GoW to land and accumulate troops on our side of the border, thus being able to better co-ordinate our moves. Their involvement is still limited by the number of galleys available to them - plus of course - the somewhat of a 'stand-off' situation on the continent. If you were to throw your support militarily behind the Estonian war, it would go a long way to cementing future relations, and easing GoW's concerns of continental pressures.

Also, I think it goes without saying that none of us want to see GS come out of this victorious. Vox is totally committed to this war, but we are up against a tough opponent, with a stronger economy, and the advantage of defence. Hence our urgings for you to get involved. As we have mentioned previously, we are getting support either directly or indirectly from other nations. And support from you now will be reciprocated in the future.

Please let us know where you stand. Thank-you, and regards.... Beta.

Nuc & BigFree -- Feel free to contact Vox to let them know that we will send military support as soon as our gallies are done. We are commited to supporting their war efforts against GS and hope that our aid will help tip the balance towards Vox. We also trust that Vox will give us Engineering in exchange for our sending troops to help in the conflict.

Also, ask them what sorts of troops they need and if they prefer them dropped on friendly soil or behind enemy lines.

--Togas

[BigFree]

Nuc,

Let Vox know what our plans are reagarding support for their war against GS. History Guy has laid out a plan for 3 galleys and 6 units. We could modify that by sending one galley first, while building the second. When the second one is finished the first one will have returned after having dropping off troops in Vox territory. We could then send over 4 units on the second trip over with the 2 Galley's. Further support would require further tech considerations from Vox in the future. We'd also require Vox's WM for this deal, so we could see what they see and plan accordingly for our mutual and coordinated attack on GS.

The exact times of these trips and unit arrival times is not known, because we don't have a map that shows a safe path accross the ocean between us. Tell them we are working with GoW to get these maps. If Vox has that information, then they should offer it also.

Feel them out, see what we can get for supplying more than 6 units. See how'd they'd feel if we had a city or two on the Southern parth of Estonia. Feel free to make suggestions or discuss things that would be favorable to Spain.

[BigFree]

Defensive Pact between RP and GoW is finalized. Read it here .

[BigFree]

Chat with MZ of GoW. I'm trying to secure Feudalism form GoW by convincing them they they won't take a 'reputation' hit by trading it to us before the 'no-trade' clause that they have with GS is up. They are at war with GS; so it makes sense that any deals you may have had are a wash now since you've gone to war with them.

Also, since Vox needs Feudalism too, it makes sense for GoW to seel it to them early as well. The better that Vox's troops do against GS the less support GoW and RP has to give them because Vox will be more likely to succeed in the war against Vox.

I think it is in GoW's interest to sell the Tech to both Vox and RP now, and I'm trying to convince him of that. GoW would rather not take the 'rep' hit; at least that is their story. I've made several suggestions as too how we could circumvent that, but MZ still seem reluctant. perhaps they feel that at a later date we could go public about how the traded Feudalism to us and Vox. The only players by that time who'd care is Lego.

We'll see what happens.

MZ was either very slow and deliberate with his responses or he was busy doing other things during our chat; hence the many time delays.

[17:54] |BigFree| You got a deal for me yet?
[18:01] |BigFree| MZ, you there?
[18:03] |MasterZen| hey
[18:04] |BigFree| hi
[18:04] |MasterZen| ok here goes
[18:04] |MasterZen| lemme find the thread and sent it to you by e-mail
[18:04] |BigFree| ok
[18:27] |MasterZen| SENT
[18:28] |BigFree| is it good news?
[18:30] |MasterZen| of course it is, check your e-mail
[18:30] |BigFree| lol, ok
[18:59] |BigFree| MZ, now that we have that under our belts, lets talk about the map and when we can get Feudalism from you.
[19:04] |MasterZen| ok, the map... again GF has been away and I don't know what happened about that
[19:10] |BigFree| ok, what about Feudalism?
[19:10] |BigFree| and see if he can come to a chat with us, maybe we can get things hammered out quicker. Try to set him up with mIRC.
[19:14] |MasterZen| as you were saying...
[19:15] |MasterZen| we're very worried about the Feudalism thing, how it can damage our rep
[19:18] |BigFree| you are at war with GS; "All's fair in love and war"
[19:20] |BigFree| war disavows any treaties or agreements you've previously had; the "hit" you took has already been taken, it was the one you took when you declared war on them. WE will take the same hit once we do the same.
[19:21] |BigFree| The justification is that since RP is joining the war, you felt it would better your chances if RP had the upgraded abilities that come with Feudalism.
[19:22] |BigFree| No one can sully your reputation for team trying to ensure the best possible outcome in a war.
[19:23] |BigFree| Didn't you have a 'deal' with GS, spying of Vox's troops movements and supplying reports? This was when you took a rep hit, you backed out of that deal and attacked them.
[19:26] |MasterZen| sorry back...
[19:26] |BigFree| np
[19:26] |MasterZen| we're not worried about what GS thinks of it, we're worried about what other teams think of it
[19:26] |MasterZen| a rep hit is not only a hit towards the team you betray but all others will know you are not to be trusted
[19:26] |BigFree| We, in Spain don't see a problem with it; we think other team won't either
[19:27] |BigFree| Vox will care less
[19:27] |BigFree| ND...who cares
[19:27] |MasterZen| example, Lego, lego will soon be able to overtake us in techs perhaps, how will we be trusted to get techs first from them?
[19:27] |BigFree| lego is the only one to worry about, if worry is the right word
[19:28] |MasterZen| but that's the one that counts
[19:28] |BigFree| we will continue to trade with them, if Lego cuts you out , they make a mistake
[19:28] |MasterZen| we have to discuss this more in depth, its not so easy as it looks
[19:28] |BigFree| GoW will become powerful once you have some more room to expand in the South
[19:28] |MasterZen| yes but we'll get crappy corrupt cities at first
[19:29] |BigFree| Lego would be fooling themselves to use that as an excuse to not deal with you
[19:29] |BigFree| There' land near GoW that is in ND's terr. that would make fine cities for GoW
[19:29] |MasterZen| not that they don't deal, just that they don't deal FIRST
[19:30] |MasterZen| i.e... we don't want to get all second-hand techs 10 turns after someone discovers them, you understand this is for "national security" reasons
[19:30] |BigFree| Why would they base that on what happened with GS?
[19:31] |MasterZen| because they would lose out cash... because they would know we would trade it cheaper, and all teams would know that too
[19:32] |BigFree| That happens regardless of what they feel your reputation is, doesn't it? teams are always on the lookout for their best interests.
[19:34] |MasterZen| of course, but we can't make that TOO obvious
[19:34] |BigFree|
[19:35] |MasterZen| plus look at our teammembers, I mean hell, THEY KNOW ME... look at our MP game, both of you knew I was going to screw one of you, people think warmongers are like that, we have a bad rep to begin with, so far we've done a very good job of losing our dignity that way, and we don't want to start
[19:36] |MasterZen| * Not losing
[19:36] |BigFree| lego has been an isolationist form the begining; they like it that way. The views they have on the GS war will not affect them.
[19:37] |MasterZen| but they'll take advantage of their land and insolationism to be the tech dealer par excellance
[19:37] |MasterZen| wouldn't you if you were them?
[19:37] |BigFree| You guys can debate it, but we need Feudalism to pull this deal off I fear.
[19:38] |BigFree| we can't send over poor, in terms of comparison, over to GS and expect to have an impact
[19:38] |BigFree| If I was Lego, i would be doing exactlywhat they are doing, minding their own business and taking the best deals for them without worries for Alliances.
[19:39] |BigFree| They feel they are their own best Allies
[19:39] |BigFree| There continent protects them better than any one Alliance could.
[19:39] |BigFree| That and the NM
[19:39] |BigFree|
[19:40] |BigFree| They feel that they are safe for now and well into the future, they will continue their peaceful build into the future.
[19:41] |BigFree| GoW and RP should possibly, after ND, consider dealing with Lego before they get to developed? Just a thought....
[19:47] |MasterZen| have you checked your military advisor?
[19:48] |MasterZen| oh, and yes, 1) GS 2) ND 3) Lego
[19:54] |BigFree| good
[19:54] |BigFree| yes we've checked the military advisor, why?
[19:59] |MasterZen| what does it say about Lego?
[20:19] |BigFree| not sure
[20:19] |BigFree| i'd have to recheck
[20:21] |BigFree| We are strong to Lego
[22:41] |BigFree| MZ, question: what ever happened to that WM GoW offered RP?
[22:42] |BigFree| On what turn would you "legally" sell Feud to us?
[22:43] |BigFree| Did you get my email indicating that Spain has agreed to the Pact?
[22:50] |MasterZen| back.. sorry
[22:50] |MasterZen| was spamming at MZO
[22:50] |BigFree| lol
[22:51] |MasterZen| oh.. the WM
[22:51] |MasterZen| again... I HAVE NO IDEA..
[22:51] |MasterZen| I don't know why we offered it in the first place.. GF must have made a mistake or something i guess
[22:52] |BigFree| can you find out if we can get the WM from you, we need it for the opreration
[22:53] |BigFree| maybe the mistake was that he was to send it accepted....ask him directly about this, it is important.
[22:59] |BigFree| On what turn would you "legally" sell Feud to us?
[23:00] |BigFree| Did you get my email indicating that Spain has agreed to the Pact?
[23:00] |BigFree| MasterZen
[23:02] |MasterZen| posted the agreement....
[23:02] |MasterZen| the Feudalism... I think it would have been 10 turns from when we got it, just that I forgot what turn that was :P
[23:02] |BigFree| I thought it was 7 turns, for the no trade thingy...
[23:03] |BigFree| but I wasn't sure what turn you got it on
[23:04] |BigFree| You know, if you seel it to Vox and us early, it will aid tremendously in the war...lessening the cost for military units needed to take down GS for all of us. I'm sure Vox would pay you back for that with perhaps a tech in the future.
[23:07] |MasterZen| I would perhaps be 7 turns by now
[23:07] |BigFree| ah
[23:07] |BigFree| so there's no chance in hell that you'd sell us Feud earlier?
[23:08] |BigFree| What if vox got it by research then sold it to us?
[23:09] |BigFree| If you sold it to both of us then we can say that is what happened; keeping Lego, GS, and ND in the dark....:evilplan:
[23:11] |MasterZen| what are the odds of ND attacking in 7 (or whatever) turns?
[23:12] |BigFree| not really worried about them right now, i guess
[23:12] |BigFree| how would they fit into the plan anyways?
[23:16] |MasterZen| they might see our little expedition against ND and decide to strike
[23:17] |BigFree| maybe...I doubt it, but how would selling Feud to Vox and RP affect that? It would actually stop them from coming south against us and would allow for a massive counter attack by Spain if they even so much dared to raise a pinky at GoW
[23:18] |BigFree| You meant GS in the previous sentence...
[23:22] |MasterZen| yes, GS sorry
[23:23] |MasterZen| (I got killing germans in my head)
[23:23] |BigFree| lol
[23:26] |BigFree| are you busy right now MZ?
[23:44] |BigFree| MZ?
[23:44] |MasterZen| umm... a bit
[23:44] |MasterZen| but speak your mind
[23:45] |BigFree| I did already...I'm waiting for you to respond.
[23:45] |MasterZen| oh yeah.. sorry lemme read
[23:47] |MasterZen| I'll tell you this, let me discuss the Feud. thing with the team, see what they think
[23:48] |BigFree| ok, I have more ideas on how to get around the 'no-trade' thingy too!
[23:48] |BigFree| RP can claim to have researched it ourselves.
[23:48] |BigFree| or we had a goody hut saved and we popped it for feud
[23:48] |MasterZen| HAHAHAHA.
[23:49] |MasterZen| and we popped an ICBM!
[23:49] |BigFree| lol, you know what i mean though, idf there's a will there;s a way
[23:49] |BigFree| we can declare war on GS before you give it to us, they won't know we even have it till hey see our units.
[23:50] |MasterZen| sounds like an idea
[23:51] |BigFree| there's lots of ways to do it, some prefered over the other's let me know what your team can approve.
[23:53] |MasterZen| ok
[23:53] |MasterZen| will do

[BigFree]

Nuclear Winter ; Did you do this yet, we need this to be done fairly quickly. Post the chat/PM/e-mail if you've already done this, thanks.

Originally posted by BigFree
Nuc,

Let Vox know what our plans are reagarding support for their war against GS. History Guy has laid out a plan for 3 galleys and 6 units. We could modify that by sending one galley first, while building the second. When the second one is finished the first one will have returned after having dropping off troops in Vox territory. We could then send over 4 units on the second trip over with the 2 Galley's. Further support would require further tech considerations from Vox in the future. We'd also require Vox's WM for this deal, so we could see what they see and plan accordingly for our mutual and coordinated attack on GS.

The exact times of these trips and unit arrival times is not known, because we don't have a map that shows a safe path accross the ocean between us. Tell them we are working with GoW to get these maps. If Vox has that information, then they should offer it also.

Feel them out, see what we can get for supplying more than 6 units. See how'd they'd feel if we had a city or two on the Southern parth of Estonia. Feel free to make suggestions or discuss things that would be favorable to Spain.

[CiverDan]

One question about about that pact: Does triggering it require ND to phyically attack first? What if they have 10 Ansars on our doorstep?

[BigFree]

Good question. But I think that if they come into our territory, then it is an act of war (offensive on their part) according to our Non-Agg Pact we have with them. After the Non-Agg is up the definition is more in the air...., but I feel that the same rule applies in all games of Civ. If another Civ viloates your territory without you having gave pernission for it, then it is considered an act of war by the tresspassing Civ.

I'll bring this issue up with GoW next time I see MZ around though.