Alliance with Lux Invicta

[History Guy]

If this new development in Diplomacy is what it genuinely appears to be, a Warmonger plot against us, Neu Demogyptica, and Lux Invicta, an alliance with the Lux Invictans is inevitable.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Aidun
Please, señor Jdjdjd, señor Tamali and señor Torquemada, let us enjoy the peace of the Age of Stability as this time perhaps shall be remembered. There is no need to bother ourselves with thoughts about evil future scenario's.

Aidun Cian

What make you think that Togas starting roleplaying would be evil ?

[jdjdjd]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


What make you think that Togas starting roleplaying would be evil ?

DAVOUT - Have you seen Togas roleplay?


On a serious note, please let me know when and if the proposed alliance above is acceptable. And I will forward to Trip and Togas for approval.

[DAVOUT]

Just a few things.

Article IV :
Although it is almost impossible to change a coma to such a masterpiece of diplomatic subtleties, I wonder what could be the form of a defensive war initiated by an aggressor

Article V. :
After the sentence * unless the Allies agree beforehand to the aggressive war*, I suggest to add : *in a separate treaty*. This peaceful treaty should not result in a war machine.
And the last sentence could be deleted.

Articles VII and XI :
I find a sort of contradiction between these two articles; keeping secret a protection given to third parties could lead to unpleasant situations. Again, I would prefer this treaty to be opened to others.

Articles IX and X :
They seem secret, so I refrain to comment.

[jdjdjd]

I like DAVOUT's suggestion re: Article V, and I have edited that Article.

I am unsure what the contradiction between VII & IX is - in VII we agree not to attack their allies. in IX we agree not to tell other civs of this alliance. This can be done.

And, as for Article IV, that is from the mouth of our Supreme Leader and so I, his humble servant, can not and will not amend its content. At this point in time in the Game, a defensive war could only be seen as military war. No economic war is yet possible.

****

Trip, Administrator Lux Invicta and Supreme Leader of the Ottomans; and Togas, Supreme Leader of the Spanish (Roleplay) do hereby agree to the following, which is binding upon the Ottomans (Lux Invicta) and the Spanish (Roleplay) Civilizations in the World (PTW Demo Game). Henceforth: any reference to the Ottomans infers Lux Invicta and reference to Spain or España infers Roleplay.

Preamble:

The Ottomans and The People of Spain do hereby commit in writing to their immense trust and respect for each other. Their friendship knows no bounds, and is unrivaled in the world. May the Great Spirits of the World, bless and preserve the Great People of these two Great Civilizations. Furthermore, Mano a Mano, the Great Leaders, Trip and Togas, do set an example to all their people, and hail each other as loyal and supportive friends by signing this Alliance.

I. This document will expire in 20 game turns from its effective time if it is not reaffirmed for another 20 turns by both nations.

II. The Ottomans and the Spanish do hereby agree to never declare war on or invade the other in a hostile manner.

III. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree to never ally, plot, conspire, assist, etc., with other Civilizations against the other in a hostile manner.

IV. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any defensive war initiated by another aggressive civilization is to trigger the Alliance, and the non-warring Ally agrees to assist the warring Ally in their defense in a reasonable and immediate manner.

V. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any aggressive war started by one of the them is not a trigger to the Alliance. Any such aggressive war alliance would need to be in a separate treaty.

VI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that each Ally in this Alliance is entitled to keep any Spoils of War it may control.

VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade an ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance.

VIII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any violation of this agreement by either Ally will null and void the Alliance.

IX. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that this Alliance will remain a secret from the other civilizations so as to not frighten them and convince them to ally against us.

This is the Word of the Ottomans and Spanish and it is their Law. Long live the Great Civilizations of the Ottomans and Spanish and let no man tear them asunder.


****

Again, any comments, or additions. And I await our Leaders OK, or additional edits.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by jdjdjd

I am unsure what the contradiction between VII & IX is - in VII we agree not to attack their allies. in IX we agree not to tell other civs of this alliance. This can be done.

This can be written, but it cant be done.

In this secret alliance, Lux commits herself not to attack our allies.
Then we make the same kind of secret alliance with ND.
Then Lux not knowing this alliance attacks ND. Such an attack could not cause the end of the first alliance with them, since Lux was not aware of it, and the commitment is worthless. As a consequence, this clause, if we want it, should be excluded from the secret, but then the secret has no content.


PS : I just insist, not by natural stubborness, not for diplomatic reasons, but just in defense of the logic which could be used against us.

[Togas]

For practical purposes, let's make these changes:

VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade a known ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance.

IX. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that this Alliance will remain a secret from the other civilizations so as to not frighten them and convince them to ally against us. Should one of the parties wish to reveal the alliance, he must first seek permission of the other party.


That should fix the dual secret alliance problems, if any were to present themself. In truth, before Lux could attack our "ally" ... secret or not, they'd have to consult with us and get a separate agreement, so we'd have control over getting into such a fight.

--Togas

[jdjdjd]

It is done - may I send?

****

Trip, Administrator Lux Invicta and Supreme Leader of the Ottomans; and Togas, Supreme Leader of the Spanish (Roleplay) do hereby agree to the following, which is binding upon the Ottomans (Lux Invicta) and the Spanish (Roleplay) Civilizations in the World (PTW Demo Game). Henceforth: any reference to the Ottomans infers Lux Invicta and reference to Spain or España infers Roleplay.

Preamble:

The Ottomans and The People of Spain do hereby commit in writing to their immense trust and respect for each other. Their friendship knows no bounds, and is unrivaled in the world. May the Great Spirits of the World, bless and preserve the Great People of these two Great Civilizations. Furthermore, Mano a Mano, the Great Leaders, Trip and Togas, do set an example to all their people, and hail each other as loyal and supportive friends by signing this Alliance.

I. This document will expire in 20 game turns from its effective time if it is not reaffirmed for another 20 turns by both nations.

II. The Ottomans and the Spanish do hereby agree to never declare war on or invade the other in a hostile manner.

III. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree to never ally, plot, conspire, assist, etc., with other Civilizations against the other in a hostile manner.

IV. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any defensive war initiated by another aggressive civilization is to trigger the Alliance, and the non-warring Ally agrees to assist the warring Ally in their defense in a reasonable and immediate manner.

V. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any aggressive war started by one of the them is not a trigger to the Alliance. Any such aggressive war alliance would need to be in a separate treaty.

VI. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that each Ally in this Alliance is entitled to keep any Spoils of War it may control.

VII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree not to invade a known ally of one of the Allies to this Alliance.

VIII. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that any violation of this agreement by either Ally will null and void the Alliance.

IX. The Ottomans and the Spanish agree that this Alliance will remain a secret from the other civilizations so as to not frighten them and convince them to ally against us. Should one of the parties wish to reveal the alliance, he must first seek permission of the other party.

This is the Word of the Ottomans and Spanish and it is their Law. Long live the Great Civilizations of the Ottomans and Spanish and let no man tear them asunder.



****

[Togas]

Yes. Let's send it and see what their reply is.

Good work, Jd.

--Togas

[jdjdjd]

I have sent it to both Esteemed Leaders, so that each can reply that it is agreeable and attach that to the Alliance.

Unfortunately, Trip's PM box is full - we will have to wait till he clears it.