Vox Controli - correspondence & foreign affairs

[ZargonX]

Well, I do not think this is what I am trying to arrange.

I know this isn't what you're trying to arrange; nor is it what Sharpe is trying to arrange; that's the entire point. It's called a compromise.

It is quite clear that there is strong division over this issue, and I don't think that either side is going to back down very soon, hence we need to look for a solution that will satisfy everyone (or, at least, most people). Not everyone is going to get what they want, but that's the way things work in a compromise.

Let me put it another way; if this issue comes up for a vote, which seems highly likely, I would vote against your plan. I would also vote against Sharpe's plan. A vote would ultimately probably prove indecisive, with maybe a 1 or 2 vote victory on either side. That would solve absolutely nothing, as the losing side would feel unfairly treated and that would just lead to more trouble down the line.

If you look at the situation, we have incredibly good things going on in this game for us. We have a good solid tech lead, great land, a strong military, and a great industrial base. And yet, here we are arguing over this ****ing loan issue for almost two weeks now: that is pathetic. Everyone involved needs to suck it up, shut up, and start reaching a compromise. I don't mean to sound like a hard-ass, but I'm not going to let this team get any more divided over this. We have too great a potential to waste it over something as stupid as this.

[vondrack]

Realizing we are discussing deal conditions without Voxes (which may be a waste of time if the conditions were not acceptable for them), I sent a PM to BetaHound, asking for a chat - and was lucky enough to catch him online later on. What I initially planned to be just a simple "only a couple of questions/clarifications" chat turned out into a lengthy discussion on various topics, including very long term plans. Unfortunately, I do not have time to comment on this today... add your comments first, please, I will add mine after I come back from the holidays. I need some time to think this over, too, anyway.

Part I

Session Start: Fri Apr 18 15:42:53 2003
Session Ident: BetaHound
vondrack: Hello, BetaHound!
BetaHound: Hiya.
vondrack: glad to catch you online - would love to chat a bit
vondrack: u have a couple of minutes?
BetaHound: Sounds good. How's life at Lego?
vondrack: Ahhh... turbulent times, you know that better than me...
BetaHound: Yes
vondrack: but we keep building peacefully...
BetaHound: which we envy
vondrack: yes, I understand - how's your war going on?
vondrack: I noticed a significant decrease in the amount of GS trash talking
BetaHound: So far so good. But ..
BetaHound: we are not yet into the thick of it.
vondrack: how long before you strike the first city?
vondrack: I noticed that even great Velociryx started to post... and in "little bit" different manner than his mates before... as if GS spotted more than just few of your immortals...

the session got interrupted here, because of Beta’s machine going off

Session Start: Fri Apr 18 15:55:13 2003
Session Ident: BetaHound1
vondrack: found you
BetaHound1: Sorry about that.
vondrack: hehe, no problem
vondrack: happened to me many times
vondrack: what was the last thing you heard from me?
BetaHound1: We have a wonky power supply - and everynow and then when the furnace kicks on the computer dies.
BetaHound1: And then when I got back on mIRC, BetaHound was still there - but it was not me.
BetaHound1: You were asking about the war.
vondrack: so, how long to the first city?
BetaHound1: Turn after next.
vondrack: woo hoo, that's close
BetaHound1: But it will likely be two cities which go that turn.
vondrack: even better
vondrack: well
BetaHound1: One we raze, one we keep.
vondrack: things to talk about:
vondrack: we have been discussing the loan we were talking about before in our Lego forum
vondrack: and there seems to be a couple of issues we'd like to clarify before committing
BetaHound1: yes?
vondrack: first, let me explain our situation
vondrack: we do have some gold saved, but we will also need quite a fair amount of it to upgrade our military
vondrack: and to gold rush some key city improvement once we switch to Rep
vondrack: so, it's not like we could throw gold right and left...
BetaHound1: understood
vondrack: do you have an idea of how much gold you are going to need?
vondrack: perhaps even better - how much and WHEN
BetaHound1: We are generating a pretty good cash flow now for Immortal upgrades. It allows us to do one per turn - but we are pumping out warriors at the rate of two or three per turn.
vondrack: impressive
BetaHound1: 200-300 gold would allow us to hit GS with another sizeable stack - and take out more cities before their economy can really get into high military production.
BetaHound1: That would be required in about 2-4 turns. Maybe out as far as 6-8.
BetaHound1: Our entire economy right now is producing strictly military units.
vondrack: do you have any other source of gold you could use?
vondrack: if we were able to provide, say, 100 gold immediately and 100 more gold within a couple of turns?
BetaHound1: That would work as well.
vondrack: oh! that would be great... we have some needs we shall address first... but splitting the loan a bit would make it easier...
BetaHound1: The other sources we have are selling engineering to NeuD and RP, but both will be GPT sales - and won't be starting for 5-10 turns. But they will help cash flow.
vondrack: I understand, we would be the only non-gpt source
BetaHound1: yes.
vondrack: well, as I said, we'd probably be able to put 100 gold together at once
vondrack: and more 100 gold within about 7 turns
BetaHound1: But I do have a suggestion.
vondrack: yes?
BetaHound1:
BetaHound1: Your loans to-date have been interest free - which is greatly appreciated.
vondrack:
BetaHound1: And we both understand the world situation and why this is in your interests to help Vox.
vondrack: yes
BetaHound1: But - we can provide some form compensation.
vondrack: go ahead
BetaHound1: Vox will commit to giving you are world map this turn. I suspect you already know a lot about Bob, but this will outline Estonia to the extent that we know it. And it includes the GS territory currently discovered.
BetaHound1: We would also provided update maps as both Vox and GoW push into GS territory.
vondrack: that would be great - we would be able to "watch the war"
BetaHound1: Well - it doesn't have units on it, but we have discussed the matter within Vox, and we would also be willing to provided screenshots of the front.
BetaHound1: That has more of the action on it.
vondrack: if I understand it correctly, it effectively means that once the war was over, we'd have the map of you continent, right?
BetaHound1: yes.
vondrack: that sounds interesting...
vondrack: Legos are curious creatures
vondrack: not that we would plan to go there, but we like to know
BetaHound1: understood.
vondrack: ok, this sounds pretty fine - especially the updates part
BetaHound1: And yes - you would have a map of our continent.
BetaHound1: btw - we are NOT proposing a map trade here.
BetaHound1: We are not asking for Lego's map.
vondrack: yes, I understand - that would be not an option
vondrack: since we do not trade maps
vondrack: ever
BetaHound1: understood
vondrack: that also means that you can be sure your map will never get to anyone else (through us)
BetaHound1:
vondrack: now, what about your idea of the repayment time schedule?
vondrack: I know I am asking you to guess from a crystal ball...
BetaHound1: That depends on the war. If it goes as expected, we should be able to start turning cash to other purposes in the 20-30 turn range,
vondrack: yeah... that's is roughly what I expected
BetaHound1: btw -
BetaHound1: what got cut off when we were talking is why GS got quiet lately.
vondrack: aha?
BetaHound1: The larger stack of Immortals just showed up on the scene - I think it was a bit of an eye-opener for them.
BetaHound1: Up until then they figured the silly Voxians were coming at them with 5 Immortals and a handful of spearmen.
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: I would happily pay 50 bucks to be able to see their faces
BetaHound1: Their timing on feudalism was awkward - but our plan holds.
vondrack: yes, their research was a little bit faster than both of us would prefer
BetaHound1: Also - we figured we did everyone a favour by forcing them into producing the great lighthouse.
vondrack: oh, yes! )
vondrack: The Lighthouse! ))
vondrack: that was awesome
BetaHound1: I figure they wanted SunTzu's.
vondrack: or another of the fine early medieval wonders
vondrack: yes
vondrack: well, back to our business
BetaHound1: Ok - back to the loan.
BetaHound1: Another point.
vondrack: yes?
BetaHound1: Vox is willing to provide Engineering to Lego when it is complete.
BetaHound1: No charge or trade.
vondrack: oh, that sounds great
BetaHound1: That is in recognition of your support, as well as cementing future plans.
vondrack: I am actually happy you said that
vondrack: there were some sentiments related to a deal we lost (C+C with RPers)
vondrack: and this would be a very fine compensation - certainly a "relations cementer" ))
BetaHound1: Understood.
BetaHound1: Yes - we felt awkward about the C+C thing as well.
vondrack: well, I guess this pretty much covers our concerns
vondrack: I actually was not fast enough to type the whole line about
vondrack: us being somehow able to finance our plans even with providing the loan to you
vondrack: on one condition: not having to buy techs
BetaHound1: yes - makes sense.
vondrack: and if we are able to secure Engineering this way, it should work
BetaHound1: Great!
BetaHound1: It is still 30 turns out though. Low research rate.
vondrack: yes, I know - not a problem for us
vondrack: we follow a different branch
vondrack: well, fine... I shall report all this to my fellow Legos and I hope to be able to get back to you very soon
BetaHound1: Regarding the war - I forgot to mention that GoW's galleys start moving into position this turn as well.
vondrack: oh, that's great! so they are sticking to their promises... great
BetaHound1: yes - so far - although they are also gearing up their military.
BetaHound1: As are RP and NeuD
vondrack: hmmm... any idea which direction they all are staring at?
BetaHound1: The Bobians? Well - that is a good question. Shall we discuss world politics for a bit?
vondrack: that may be a good idea
vondrack: the medieval times are going to be violent, no doubt
BetaHound1: yes - the game will not last too long I figure.

[vondrack]

Part II

BetaHound1: OK - here goes.
vondrack: ok, listening
BetaHound1: GoW and NeuD were clearly on-side with us attacking GS. They played along with the ruse - and GoW will be aiding militarily.
BetaHound1: btw - we have traded maps with GoW.
vondrack:
vondrack: so you can see us now
vondrack: at least a bit of us
BetaHound1: yes
BetaHound1: And the long term goals of the 'lesser' civs was to bring down the stronger civs, in this order:
BetaHound1: GS
BetaHound1: RP
BetaHound1: Lego
BetaHound1:
vondrack: the first two ones are fine
BetaHound1: understood
vondrack: the last one sucks
vondrack:
BetaHound1: agreed
BetaHound1: And I suspect they may actually be happy of GS and Vox just beat themselves to pulp in this war.
BetaHound1: Which may happen.
vondrack: hmmm... that is a possibility (that they would like to see it)
vondrack: as much as we would like to see THEM do the same
BetaHound1: Now - I think GoW would like it best if they and NeuD took out RP.
BetaHound1: The original plan was that that would occur after we had finished off GS, and could help.
vondrack: yep, that's what I thought was the plan
BetaHound1: But GoW is not 'rushing' to help us. In fact they paid GS 200 gold for feudalism
BetaHound1: Which we knew about.
vondrack: bummer
BetaHound1: yes. But if we want GoW's help - they need to get something out of it. They are opportunistic.
vondrack: yeah, I can imagine that
vondrack: they are mercenaries, after all
BetaHound1: yes - they are.
vondrack: will they at least give it to you?
vondrack: or trade
BetaHound1: in 10 turns. They want to respect the deal with GS. ???? Noble but misplaced if you ask me.
vondrack: Jesus... that really is a twisted sense of honour )
BetaHound1: So - I suspect you are safe for awhile - but I would not spend too much time worrying about cultural improvements.
vondrack: yep
vondrack: you suggest that we may be next, instead of RPers?
BetaHound1: no - RP is next. Pretty sure of it.
BetaHound1: But be prepared.
vondrack: understood
BetaHound1: And - I would like to propose a possible end-game scenario.
vondrack: oh, yes, let's bring it on ) End game scenario - I love that...
BetaHound1: Well - we get the upper hand with GS and hopefully put them away -
vondrack: that's what we both hope for
BetaHound1: Then the plan is NeuD and GoW and Vox go after RP.
vondrack: hmmm... I can already hear RPers screaming for our help...
BetaHound1: Which - depending on the timing - we will assist.
BetaHound1: sort of
BetaHound1:
vondrack: yeah... like GoW is helping you with GS now, right?
BetaHound1: Because - what I can see then is Vox turning its military towards Bob, as would Lego - and just when GoW and NeuD have crushed RP and hopefully beat themselves up in the process - we crash into them and finish the game!!
BetaHound1: It's beautiful.
vondrack: it is
BetaHound1: With two civs left - you will no doubt be stronger - we let you finish in first place.
BetaHound1: And we turn BOB into a wild-life sanctuary.
BetaHound1:
vondrack: wild-life sanctuary!
vondrack: yes!
vondrack: you seem to be happy enough with taking out GS...
vondrack: but I understand that
vondrack: and this grand plan will forever be yours
BetaHound1:
BetaHound1: Thanks - I'm a tree hugger.
vondrack: LoL
BetaHound1: Save the pandas!
BetaHound1: And the amazon rain forest.
BetaHound1:
BetaHound1: Besides, with only two teams - the game will lose players and interest. Better to start a second one then.
vondrack: yes, agreed
vondrack: well, all this sounds great... but I suspect we will see cavalry until it is over
BetaHound1: Likely.
vondrack: perhaps that would be the best moment
vondrack: get ahead research-wise
vondrack: get cavalry first
BetaHound1: Yes - to avoid them having the UU advantage.
vondrack: and hit Bob with a technically superior military
vondrack: yep
vondrack: now, tell me one thing
BetaHound1: yes?
vondrack: why do you want to ally/win with Lego? and not, e.g., GoW or ND?
BetaHound1: A couple of reasons.
vondrack: Ah, fine... I was afraid there would be just one
BetaHound1: One is you.
BetaHound1: Vox trusts you.
vondrack: oh, this is an honour
vondrack: thank you
vondrack: I mean it
BetaHound1: A second is that we figure GoW and NeuD will not be happy with two civs left standing. Even if one of them is willing to concede first place.
vondrack: hmmm... yes, they are no tree-huggers, admittedly
BetaHound1: A third is geography.
vondrack: makes sense, yes
BetaHound1: We have the advantage of having Bob in between us - which allows this opportunity.
vondrack: yeah... whomever they attack, they will have the other one attacking their rear
vondrack: two front wars
BetaHound1: And a fourth - is the way the political situation in this game has evolved.
vondrack: ?
BetaHound1: We do NOT trust RP - but we work with them. BTW - Vox is going to convert to catholicism to help seal a deal.
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: you will be a catholic tree-hugger then...
BetaHound1: NeuD is almost unreadable which is scary.
BetaHound1: GS - is well - GS. Enough said.
vondrack: yes, our impression as well (ND+GS)
BetaHound1: And GoW - well - as you put it - they are mercenaries.
BetaHound1: I respect the way they have played the game.
vondrack: agreed about GoW
BetaHound1: But I wouldn't want to climb into bed with them.
vondrack: while you want to climb in bed with us? )
vondrack: j/k
BetaHound1: Tiberius - yum...
vondrack: LoL
BetaHound1: It's the dog in me.
vondrack: I will have to cut this out... or he would not vote for the plan
BetaHound1: LoL!!!
vondrack: well, thanks for all this
vondrack: I am now having a much better idea about what, when, where, and WHY
BetaHound1: yes - thanks. Good chat. Hope this helps with where Vox is at in the short and long term.
vondrack: I think this is a lot of information and plans
BetaHound1: yes - a lot.
vondrack: and I shall better pass that to my teammates before going any further
vondrack: there is more than One Voice in Lego )
BetaHound1: And we cannot get too far ahead of ourselves - as we do have GS to contend with - and damn, they're good.
BetaHound1: yes - understood.
vondrack: are they?
vondrack: well, they better should be...
vondrack:
BetaHound1: well - they think a lot.
BetaHound1: I don't think they ever really figured out that this is a MP game.
vondrack: LoL
vondrack: yes, we often get the same impression
BetaHound1: Just another SP game with slightly smarter AI.
vondrack: very slightly, yes
BetaHound1: But not that much smarter.
vondrack: LoL
BetaHound1: LoL
vondrack: well, I won't keep you any longer - business stuff calling for me as well
vondrack: wish you good luck
BetaHound1: OK - yes - please discuss with your team.
vondrack: and hope to chat again soon
vondrack: take care, Beta
BetaHound1: And you too.
vondrack: talk to you soon (leaving for Easter holidays though)
vondrack: bye
BetaHound1: bye

[Sharpe]

I agree with most of Zargon's proposal.

I don't disagree about a loan to Vox only just not 200 gold now. I am not opposed to eventually giving them 200 gold in total , but by no means do I support giving them 200 upfront - especially as what would we do if they then ask for even more money later. There is a limit to how much we can give and if we didn't have the money available at that point then we would look like bad allies and that would adversely affect our relationship with Vox. If there is enough support for 120 gold, then I will reluctantly support it; although I favour a max of 100 gold initially.

I support getting the map now or very soon - I am not opposed to getting the map twice - once very soon and also after the war is over.

I think that the repayment of the loan should be kept to within 20 turns if possible from the start of repayment - the repayment to begin either at the end of the war or when Vox is starting to mop up the remains of GS. I would suggest a portion up front (not much admittedly - say 20-40 gold) then a portion for gold per turn, then an ending payment (although the ending payment is a last resort).

[ZargonX]

Well, looking over the chat, things are looking up. It looks like Vox is ok with a split loan, which I would be for. Plus, they've offered a large amount of compensation in return. I think we need to write up an official contract for the loan, and they we can vote on approving that. Thank you for discussing the issue with Beta, Vondrack, as this chat log has given much more details to a formerly vague situation

[Sharpe]

Ok, I have read through the Betahound chat.

Beta seems reasonable and I get the feeling that he seems to have a grasp on some of the concerns that I have been raising.

Vox does seem to want us as an ally and it is in their best interests that we are strong. I really like his proposal re maps now and screenshot updates and map after the war.

That being said - I would prefer 200 gold at max over time - unless they run into real trouble. 300 gold is probably out of the question given our needs.

Also, I don't believe for one minute about his long range plans - if they see a chance to win, they will go for it - Lego or no Lego alliance. So I would be a little wary about totally trusting Vox - they can easily backstab us - especially when they see how big our landmass really is - however, Beta did seem thrilled when Nimitz told him that we have 11 cities (Yee haw, was his reaction IIRC ).

Re: the long range plans of the RP war (assuming that my info isn't correct that we are in fact next) - I am not sure whether we should let GoW + ND completely destroy RP before intervening. In fact, I would almost suggest that we should intervene when they are deep in RP territory but RP is still relatively intact - but damaged, perhaps badly damaged. Then we either hit the ND+GoW core areas or join with RP to drive GoW + ND back. RP would still be devastated by the war and would surely ally with us against the other Bob civs making the destruction of GoW and ND that much quicker. But would be way too weak to challenge the Vox-Lego alliance and we could gain control of Bob. We could always finish RP off later...

So in summary, my view of Vox trades:

1) 100-120 gold to Vox when they ask for it and they give us their map in return (if not sooner)

2) up to 100 gold later (say in up to 10 turns or when we have received the 50 gold from RP)

3) Get screen updates of the war from Vox

4) They agree to repay the loans when the war is nearing its end or at its end and within 20 to 30 turns.

5) They give us Engineering when they research it

6) They give us a complete Estonian map when available.

7) We can discuss trading them tech to keep them up to speed at a later point.

8) We should build up more defenses and units to be wary of possible GoW + ND action against us.

Yes, good job in discussing it with Beta, Radek - it did clear up some issues.

[Tiberius]

I'd like to step in, this time as the minister of science and economy, if that is worth something. As such, it is my duty to judge, and judge well trade proposals. If this doesn't worth anything, than as a simple Lego citizen, even though lately I don't feel so good being one.

I'd like to apologize from the very beginning, should I offend someone, but these "negotiations" (between us) are starting to bother me more and more.

Think a little bit what Vox are offering to us, what they did so far and what are we are offering to them:

We:
- 100 gold now
- 100 gold (max) in 10 turns, as a loan

They:
- destroying/weakening GS, our greatest tech rival
- forced GS to abandon a wonder, maybe one that we will build in the end
- give us their WM now, when the war is over again, plus war updates/info
- offered us a grand alliance and seem to be honest about it, something that no one offered to us until now (the RP did, but we know how much it does worth)
- they are offering to repay the loan
- they'd give us Engineering for free

I don't count the previous deal, because that was a separate deal for Monotheirm. Besides they don't owe us with the C&C deal, that was GS's fault, they were the one who didn't include a no-whoring clause, so legally Vox didn't do anything wrong.

Do you feel this right? Do you feel OK with it? Because I feel ashamed that we are trying to profit from them as we are. Remember how GS tried to rip us off with the C&C deal and how offended we felt about it? Do you still remember how much are GS asking for Feudalism?

Think a little bit. Just imagine how much would GS ask for what Vox are offering to us. 100 gold + a 100 gold loan??? One must be extremely naive to believe that they wouldn't ask for at least the double or triple that sum. When forming an alliance with GS, do you think they would accept us as even partners, or treat us like their slaves?

We can obtain here an alliance that could lead us in the end game, with only 2 strong teams left, we and Vox. Isn't this our goal? To survive until the finish, and then win, if possible not by military means? This is a chance to win the game and I don't really remember when did I have last time the chance to win a game with a few gold extra. I'm not saying that everything will be perfect, but this is a very good chance, we shouldn't let it pass by arguing over a few gold.

I don't agree, I repeat: I do not agree with such a treaty, because it is so unfair to our trading partner, that it would seriously hinder our reputation as good traders, and I can't accept that.

I still don't understand what the problem is? With GS gone, we can lower our tech research and use the gold to build our infrastructure and finance our military. We have 500 gold. What are we going to do with it in the next 10-15 turns, until we switch to Republic?

None of you argued against trading Theo+Edu with GoW for Feud+Chivalry, even though the difference between the techs is 480 beakers. Why didn't you argue then that we need that money? Why didn't you push for a gold compensation from GoW?

You were complaining that we are losing friends, and now you are aginst gaining one? Gold is not as important as the frienship and gratitude of our allies, so let not throw it away.

I will make shortly my trade proposal, and I hope it will be accepted, because otherwise I will "not sign" it. Since I am the minister in charge, no trade proposal will go through without my approval, which means that either I accept/approve it, or I resign.

[vondrack]

Dear Tibi,

As I have said recently, you seem to be better able to express my feelings and thoughts than I've lately been.

I agree with every single word of your post. As if it was written by myself.



Radek

I am leaving in just minutes, so have a good time, everybody!

[Tiberius]

Here are my proposals.

These proposals are not even slightly as advantageous to Vox as our proposal to GoW, so please, comment it thinking not only on how much money we are giving away. All the money we are offering is worth 3 or 4 turns of research stop from us.
Besides, if we want Vox to win the war, we have to finance them, or we might very well lose all of it. We may gain 50 gold on the short term and lose 300 on the long run. This is a unique chance to get rid of our bigest economic competitor, and this was our goal from the beginning, to be the most powerful economical power around, was it not? So we either help them with full steam or better stop now and don't help them at all. This isn't a good moment for compromises.

Lego-Vox trade proposal

1. Lego grants Theology to Vox one turn before Engineering will be available to Vox. Next turn, Vox grants Engineering to Lego. 20 turns "no-whoring" clauses on both sides.

2. Lego pays 100 gold to Vox now. Vox grants Lego their WM now, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports + screenshots every [x] turns

3. Lego grants Vox a loan of 100 gold now. Vox starts repaying it in 20-30 turns from now, in an amount of 5 gpt, for 20 turns.

Alternative proposal:

Lego-Vox trade proposal

1. Lego grants Theology to Vox one turn before Engineering will be available to Vox. Next turn, Vox grants Engineering to Lego. 20 turns "no-whoring" clauses on both sides.

2. Lego pays 150 gold to Vox now. Vox grants Lego their WM now, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports + screenshots every [x] turns

3. Lego grants Vox a loan of 100 gold on turn 102. (when we we get the money from RP). Vox starts repaying it in 20 turns after they get the loan, in an amount of 6 gpt, for 20 turns.

Note: The sum is bigger with the amount we get from RP, and Vox is supposed to pay back 120, instead of only 100. This is my personal favourite, because we give them enough money now, some more in a 7 turns, which is within Vox's timeframe, and we get more money back

Yet another one:

Lego-Vox trade proposal

1. Lego grants Theology to Vox one turn before Engineering will be available to Vox. Next turn, Vox grants Engineering to Lego. 20 turns "no-whoring" clauses on both sides.

2. Lego pays 120 gold to Vox now. Vox grants Lego their WM now, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports + screenshots every [x] turns

3. Lego grants Vox a loan of 120 gold on turn 102. (when we we get the money from RP). Vox starts repaying it in 20 turns after they get the loan, in an amount of 6 gpt, for 20 turns.

Some issues are of course open to debate, like when to start paying the gpt (in 20 turns, or when the war is over, etc) or do we want only gpt ...

I'd let them choose between the proposals.

If I was playing alone, I'd sacrifice more money for such an opportunity, so take these proposals as a compromise from me.

[Tiberius]

Happy Easter, Radek

Happy Easter to every fellow Legoman

[Sharpe]

Happy Easter everyone!

I would favor Proposal #3 with the following changes:

1) We don't give Theology to them until after we get Engineering - Though truthfully they would probably be MUCH more interested in Education due to the universities. Don't forget that they OWE us for the RP C&C situation - so if they haven't started paying back the loan by then they should give us a deposit of at least 50 gold when we trade techs.

2) 120 gold in 1-2 turns is ok (I would wait until the initial attacks are over before giving them the money to see what their situation is).

3) 100 gold in 8-10 turns after the initial loan.

4) Repayment - the lower payment would be for the map, the higher payment would be a loan - Don't forget that they sold their world map to GS for 95 gold - why should we pay much more than that?

We should get 20 gold in interest on the loan (1 more gold per turn) that we can refund later back to them if we want as a sign of good faith - or as part of a later tech trade.

As for the map trading, screenshot updates and later map I agree with Tiberius's suggestions.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Sharpe
1) We don't give Theology to them until after we get Engineering - Though truthfully they would probably be MUCH more interested in Education due to the universities. Don't forget that they OWE us for the RP C&C situation

But not too much. They didn't sign any no-whoring clause when they bought C&C. It was GS who didn't respect their part of the deal; they should have included the clause in their trade with Vox, which they didn't.

4) Repayment - the lower payment would be for the map, the higher payment would be a loan - Don't forget that they sold their world map to GS for 95 gold - why should we pay much more than that?

Because they are giving us 2 world maps, one now and one again when the war is over, plus the war updates and screenshots. (all these worth ~120 gold, IMHO)

We should get 20 gold in interest on the loan (1 more gold per turn) that we can refund later back to them if we want as a sign of good faith - or as part of a later tech trade.

We can ask for 1 or 2 gpt as a profit for us, but only if we grant them more money. Giving them a loan of, say, 200 gold would be a bigger risk for us, plus we should stop our reseach for 3 turns, thus we could ask for a small interest. But I already mentioned this when I favoured the 2nd proposal.

Please everybody speak up, so that we could decide this in 1 or max. 2 turns.

[Kloreep]

I propose an alternative version of #2 (addition italicized, removals struck out):

Lego-Vox trade proposal

1. Lego grants Theology to Vox one turn before Engineering will be available to Vox. Next turn, Vox grants Engineering to Lego. 20 turns "no-whoring" clauses on both sides.

2. Lego pays 150 gold to Vox now. Vox grants Lego their WM now, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports + screenshots every [x] turns

3. Lego grants Vox a loan of 100 gold on turn 102. (when we we get the money from RP). Vox starts repaying it in 20 turns after they get the loan, in an amount of 6 5 gpt, for 20 turns.

4. Lego agrees to gift Theology to Vox upon request, urging Vox not to request it until they need it for Education, in order to make it difficult for any other team trying to research it on their own. Vox agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel, and to not trade it to any team unless that team also agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel as part of the trade.

Basically, I want to ensure our Sistine dominance as much as possible. If you think the added conditions on Theology are too much, remember that Vox can request Theology at any time, and is also in a better position to trade it around due to no no-whore clause after that - we will merely request some Sistine dominance in return.

Edit: And I forgot - Happy Easter.

Edit: Also, Sharpe just said in chat he'd prefer 120 as the payment. This would be fine with me; the Sistine clause is more important to me than the specific money/loan variant we use.

[Tiberius]

The no-Sistine clause is a very good idea, Kloreep However I insist that now, with us asking even more from Vox for a small loan, to grant Vox a bigger loan. It'd agree on 120 gold on turn 97 (for the map part) and 120 as a loan on turn 102.

Man, think: we are accepting a tech trade with GoW with a difference of 480 in their favour, asking only for a no-Sistine and no-Bach's clause, and yet we fail to give Voxes the half of it, not even as a loan, in better conditions for us ? Why?

Lego-Vox trade proposal

1. Vox agrees to gift Engineering to Lego on the turn it becomes available for Vox. Lego agrees on a 20 turns "no-whoring" clause.

2. Lego agrees to gift Theology to Vox upon request, urging Vox not to request it until they need it for Education, in order to make it difficult for any other team trying to research it on their own. Vox agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel, and to not trade Theology to any team unless that team also agrees not to build the Sistine Chapel as part of the trade.

3. Lego agrees to pay 120 gold to Vox on turn 97 (Vox receives it on turn 98). Vox gifts Lego their WM on turn 98, their WM again when the war with GS is over and war reports and screenshots every 3 (??) turns.

4. Lego grants Vox a loan of 120 gold on turn 102 (Vox receives on turn 103). Vox starts repaying it in 20 turns after turn 103, in an amount of 6 gpt, for 20 turns.

[Kloreep]

120 payment + a 120 loan is fine with me. As I said, it's the no-Sistine clause (and the courthouse rush in Karina too, but this should still leave us with enough money, if we do a chop) that I care about, not the exact details of the loan.