Vox Controli - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Kloreep]

Good points; I had forgotten about the RP chats. RP is who I'm most afraid of a blackmail, anyway. I suppose Lego should attend the chat, though I'm dubious about doing anything; either we a) commit to threatening more than is possible, in which case we will be revealed as liars if GS calls our bluff (and relations with GS probably go bad regardless), or we promise what we can do - essentially nothing - and have no effect.

[Tiberius]

They (Vox) better prepare quickly some galleys and settlers ...

[Kloreep]

Yes, they won't have much food on Minor to bulid settlers with... and they'll need some guards for the barbs too.

[Nimitz]

I got a PM they have set the joint chat at 9 PM EST tonight.

[Nimitz]

The room is #TigerTalks, the pass kitty

[vondrack]

Just received this PM from Beta:

(please distribute to Lego's attending the cat)

June 12 Chat - Backgrounder

I thought it would be useful to distribute some points prior to the chat to save time for discussion.

To start with - here is the peace deal we offered to GS:

- they get south Estonia
- we gift Dissidentville to them-
- we do a public mea culpa - Beta to do that.
- we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era. Jon to do this
- we will provide engineering in approx 15 turns.
-we provide our free tech going into the next era.
-we will not attack Inchon
-we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia
- this includes Harry and his gang trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets. (We did this and the units were eliminated.)
-and ask if they want to move Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping.
-we also agreed to forfeit any access to iron, as a commitment to future non-aggression

This was rejected by GS. However - they still put a peace deal back up on the screen, and we sent back the deal unaccepted, with Dissidentville added. That was the same turn they eliminated our Immortals who basically left themselves undefended. They were damaged and would have eventually gone down.

We are told the GS hawks out-number the doves. We are also told that our deception going into this wear was just too good, and they don't feel they could ever trust us. They are willing to give us some limited time to get off of North Estonia, but they do not want us to stay. They want the entire continent.

So - now - GS has landed 7 units in North Estonia. But the good news is that they did not reinforce Inchon. We can take Inchon this turn or next. But we do not have many units in North Estonia. It will be a scramble to defend against the intruders.

What we propose is that:

1. Vox publicly post our peace proposal. This will make it look like we are trying to win over world opinion and that you are all still sitting on the fence.

2. This will hopefully protect the RP galley which is now in amongst the GS galleys to avoid being taken out on the GS move.

3. RP land its two horsemen on North Estonia - at a spot to be determined. This will depend on what GS does with its troops. We hope they will attack Elipolis which will keep them further south. The attackers of Inchon will soon be there.

4. RP land its other two units asap.

5. GoW land its 4 committed units (btw - we will provide RoP's to RP and GoW).

6. At the same time as landing the units - and once RP's galley is safe - GoW, RP, and Lego all declare their support for Vox in messages to GS. I suspect this may be sufficient to make them think twice about this. Also - our GA has just ended so GS' will end shortly as well. This turn or next.

The good side of this plan is that it does not involve major troop commitments. But GS does not need to know that. The downside is if they call the bluff. By then we will have ringed North Estonia to prevent landings - and loaded all our troops into Elipolis.

There may be political fall out for the three of you - but I don't think GS could risk that level of isolation. Even with NeuD not at the table. Where do they stand on this by the way? The strong, silent types.

The hint of a future tech trade embargo would be something to think about. You could all convince them that Vox is like a little child which has learned its lesson and will sit in its corner for the rest of the game.

But the big concern to all of us is if GS does get the entire continent. I think it will be easier standing up to them now than after they have developed all of Estonia.

See you in the chat. .... Beta.

[lmtoops]

GS is too smart. They will figure this out or they already know about it from RP. If they are set on taking all of Estonia, then thats what they will do.

[vondrack]

Here goes the log of the Conference Chat:

Session Start: Fri Jun 13 01:30:51 2003
Session Ident: #TigerTalks
* Now talking in #TigerTalks
* Topic is 'Conference Room For RP-Vox-GoW-Lego '
* Set by BigFree on Thu Jun 12 19:03:52
* Togas has quit IRC (Quit: )
[RP]mrmitchell: i g2g. cya.
* [RP]mrmitchell has left #tigertalks
* BigFree|AtWork is now known as BigFree
* Togas has joined #TigerTalks
* ChanServ sets mode: +o Togas
Togas: so beta is supposed to show at 9pm EST?
vondrack: most probably
vondrack: got a PM from him about an hour or two ago
vondrack: but I am less then sure I will be able to last
vondrack: almost 3am here
BigFree: ouch
vondrack: I have been up since 4am today
BigFree: I'm about to leave for work myself
vondrack: approaching the 24hr mark...
BigFree: ouch
* BigFree sets mode: +o vondrack
BigFree: adios
BigFree: take care vond
* BigFree is now known as BigFree|AtWork
vondrack: ciao!
* Panzer_32 has joined #tigertalks
vondrack: hello, Panzer!
Panzer_32: hello guys
* BetaHound has joined #TigerTalks
vondrack: ah, great!
vondrack: hi, Beta!
BetaHound: greetings!
BetaHound: how is everyone?
vondrack: perhaps we could start a bit earlier?
Panzer_32: hello Beta(-hound)
BetaHound: n/p
vondrack: I might not fall asleep then...
BetaHound: GoW expecting anyone else?
BetaHound: Panzer?
* vondrack slaps Panzer_32 around a bit with a large trout
vondrack: Panzer!
Panzer_32: I'm here
BetaHound: he's dead - NO he's not!
Panzer_32: I'm reading
vondrack: expecting anyone else from GoW, Panzer?
BetaHound: war and peace?
Panzer_32: Master Zen doesn't normally show up for another hour or so
BetaHound: You are from GoW - just do the first half.
* NuclearisWinterius has joined #Tigertalks
Panzer_32: GhengisFarb and Hot_enamel are online, GF might show up; H_E probably won't
NuclearisWinterius: hello all
Panzer_32: Unorthodox might
vondrack: hi!
BetaHound: All Ok with GF these days?
Panzer_32: yeah
BetaHound: good!
BetaHound: HI NW
Panzer_32: reminds me.. I have to set up an election poll
BetaHound: Beta for president of GoW?
NuclearisWinterius: HEy Beta, The man who never answers PM´s
NuclearisWinterius: I vote for Togas as supreme president of GoW
BetaHound: Ah - sorry my dear sir. But conversion to catholicism has not benn high on our - er agenda - as of late.
BetaHound: I hope you can appreciate that.
vondrack: LoL
NuclearisWinterius: I see
NuclearisWinterius: but you didn´t even asnwer to the ones about... err... nevermind
* vondrack sets mode: +ooo BetaHound NuclearisWinterius Panzer_32
BetaHound: err - the pictures - with the young ladies ???
NuclearisWinterius: Thanks VOndrack
NuclearisWinterius: eeeh?
NuclearisWinterius: whathe?
* NuclearisWinterius has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer )
BetaHound: I din't think men of the cloth were allowed such indilgences.
BetaHound: indulgences
BetaHound: oh well - scare him of as it was.
BetaHound: Sorry Togas.
BetaHound: So - shall we start?
Panzer_32: sure.
vondrack: ok with me
BetaHound: Togas?
BetaHound: earth to Togas...
BetaHound: ...come in please ...
BetaHound: (static in background)
Togas: hello
Togas: sorry, was in the kitchen
* Sharpe has joined #Tigertalks
Sharpe: Hi
BetaHound: Ok - welcome; Let's go
BetaHound: Hi Sharpe - welcome.
* NuclearisWinterius has joined #Tigertalks
* vondrack sets mode: +oo NuclearisWinterius Sharpe
BetaHound: Welcome back NW
NuclearisWinterius: Don´t you hate when you press the sleep key instead of delete?
Togas: I'm ready to start
BetaHound: So - did evryone get the backgrounder?
Panzer_32: ssshhh its about to start
Panzer_32: yes
vondrack: yes
Togas: you mean the PM?
Togas: I got a message that my PM box was full
BetaHound: is it still?
BetaHound: or give me you e-mail and I will send yo the discussion paper
Togas: I'll go clean it out again. I wrote you back via email hoping you'd send it there
Togas: send to tom_ogas@yahoo.com
BetaHound: will do - one sec
Sharpe: Anyone from ND online at the moment (doubtful given the time of day)
vondrack: errrrrmmmm...
Panzer_32: nope
vondrack: I am quite sure I am the only insane Euro here
NuclearisWinterius: Hmm, I didn´t know vondrack was a coin
* MasterZen has joined #Tigertalks
* ChanServ sets mode: +o MasterZen
NuclearisWinterius: Well, has any of the krauts contacted anyone about their participation?
NuclearisWinterius: hey MZ
MasterZen: greetings
vondrack: hey, MZ!
MasterZen: I actually made it
BetaHound: MZ - hello!
Togas: wait, Beta, BigFree posted your PM to our forum!
Togas: I'm reading it now
BetaHound: MZ- Did you get the backgrounder?
Panzer_32: MZ, did you see the background stuff in the forum (or in a PM)
MasterZen: did you guys just start?
BetaHound: yup
BetaHound: We were waiting for you:[/b]
BetaHound:
MasterZen: lemme check... I just got home 2 min ago
Panzer_32: haven't said anything really yet
vondrack: just making sure everybody knows what we are going to talk about
BetaHound: exactly
Panzer_32: MZ - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...35#post2085635
MasterZen: bah, I like impromptu discussions better :P
vondrack: Panzer, the link does not work for me!
BetaHound: me neither!
MasterZen: probably from our private forum?
MasterZen: yep
MasterZen: hahaha :P
Panzer_32: oh thats too bad, VD. you should have join GoW
MasterZen: I'll send you an application form
BetaHound: MZ - you might want to gibve it a quick read - it will save me having to re-post it all here.
MasterZen: don't worry, I'm reading...
BetaHound: k
BetaHound: OK - so you have all seen what we proposed to GS.
BetaHound: And you have seen our proposals regarding holding North Estonia.
Togas: hrm....
BetaHound: The basic question is are you up for it or not?
Togas: I'm pondering this.
BetaHound: Big Free says...
MasterZen: I like point 1
BetaHound: That he has talked to NeuD and that they are on-side - ie will support such a plan...
BetaHound: and will even provide horses.
BetaHound: To Vox
MasterZen: that would be a really big PR hit for GS...
Togas: ND said that they would have a poll on providing horses.
BetaHound: ah? That is different.
Togas: What I'm wondering is this ... has your southern army been crushed? Is the offensive over?
BetaHound: No - not at all. We still have some 20 immortals, 10 pikes, 8 warriors, and 3 catapults in and around Inchon.
BetaHound: We have left 3 pikes to hold D-ville as ling as possible - and to destro roads.
BetaHound: The army is still intact,
NuclearisWinterius: are tehre prospects for raising another one?
BetaHound: % Immortals we moved from the mountains to the plains as a show of good faith were destroyed.
BetaHound: 5 immortals
Togas: Yep, they're not big on Good Faith over there
Panzer_32: why don't you disband Dissidentville and use the pikes for Elipolis defence?
BetaHound: Could do. We want to delay their push north - but that makes good sense.
Panzer_32: It also denies GS a future city
BetaHound: agreed
Panzer_32: You also talk about taking Inchon.
NuclearisWinterius: 4Question: Would Vox have naval means to break a blockade against BEta-by-the-Sea?
Togas: One thing I want to Echo with MZ is ... you should post the peace proposal
BetaHound: OK - so 1 is a go.
MasterZen: yes, ASAP
MasterZen: that way we can all post our support
MasterZen: and tell the world about the Immortal move
BetaHound: as to Inchon - yes - we can take it. This turn or next.
Panzer_32: What would the purpose of taking Inchon be? It would only spread out your defensive line.
BetaHound: As to breaking a blockade - we have 3 galleys - one vet - and catapults. Two galleys on the way.
BetaHound: The purpose would be to destroy their other military force in the north.
BetaHound: We do not want the city.
Panzer_32: What I envision is a circle of units around your lands, with the interior undefended.
BetaHound: yes - agreed.
Togas: We can take care of our galley. Don't worry about that. My main concern right now is that the plan for using our troops in the past is pretty much over. I'm trying to decide if landing troops would do any good.
BetaHound: It would be their appearnace which would have value.
BetaHound: And in fact - two of the units they landed are Chariots.
Panzer_32: Then GS has to attack Elipolis if they want anything - and that will be heavily defended
BetaHound: P32 - agreed.
BetaHound: We would load all pikes and pults into Elipolis.
Panzer_32: Also, is Elipolis building walls?
BetaHound: Has them.
Panzer_32: good
Togas: The goal in the past was to destroy GS. The goal now is just to survive, yes?
BetaHound: yes.
BetaHound: And...
BetaHound: to limit GS's access to North Estonia.
BetaHound: deny actually
MasterZen: is it militarily feasable?
BetaHound: yes
Panzer_32: is there any estimates to how many chariots GS has?
Togas: They have 2
BetaHound: not many
MasterZen: see, the point is that it is only necessary for them to THINK they can't do it
Panzer_32: so the rest is swordsmen?
BetaHound: exactly!!!
BetaHound: med inf
MasterZen: thus the need for deception and bluff
Panzer_32: right
BetaHound: but mostly pikes
BetaHound: and a certain show of solidarity.
Panzer_32: is their GA exhausted yet?
BetaHound: this turn.
BetaHound:
Togas: If the goal is peace, Spain would like to help strengthen the peace without pointing GS over in our direction for a new conflict.
BetaHound: Your welcome.
Panzer_32: I believe, in all seriousness, that it is possible to sucessfully defend Northern Estonia.
BetaHound: Togas - that is why solidarity is required
BetaHound: as do I
BetaHound: Togas - so that you are not singled out.
Togas: I'm willing to stand with Lego and GoW on this, but only if they actually stand with us. Passive support won't do us any good if GS's galleys decide to drop their med inf on Barcelona to get back at us.
BetaHound: That is why GoW has to land its troops as well. And why Lego - who have provided considerable support via other means - both need to nmake their presence felt via PM.
Togas: as you know GS is not very fond of us...
BetaHound: I know.
BetaHound: They blamed you for the start of the war.
BetaHound: What a hoot.
BetaHound: Sorry - I am laughing at GS here.
Togas: I think it would be funny if it was someone else
BetaHound: Agreed.
NuclearisWinterius: GS has it´s greedy eyes turned toward the whole world!
BetaHound: Agreed.
BetaHound: So - MZ, Panzer?
MasterZen: but not before they build
* NuclearisWinterius feels itches to release his propaganda machine
BetaHound: Will GoW land its troops?
BetaHound: hehe
BetaHound: me too
Panzer_32: yes
MasterZen: no, seriously, understand their psyche
MasterZen: yes re: land
BetaHound: MZ - yes?
MasterZen: they are a very very mixed team
MasterZen: which a very easily picked with their ego
BetaHound: yes
MasterZen: curiously their military coordinators, Theseus and Arrian are actually the more level-headed of the bunch
vondrack: I believe I can say that Lego is ready to clearly state its support to end this war - be it in public or through a PM to GS. We will do our best to help, but you all know that we are unable to get our units there in a reasonable time frame.
BetaHound: vondrack - understood.
Togas: I am torn about landing our horsemen. Here is why:
MasterZen: we should all make public our support in the as-yet-posted thread
Togas: We had a long chat with GS today, not entirely upbeat, but in the end peaceful. We discussed the presence of our galley in their waters...
Togas: and after a lot of really stupid assuptions and lame arguments and paranoia about it, they finally relented to not killing the galley next turn
MasterZen: which GS members did you talk to?
Togas: giving us a chance to finally get a map of their entire island for once, and probaly the only time.
Togas: Shiber, Zeit, and OPD
* History_Guy1 has joined #Tigertalks
MasterZen: and those are the level headed ones too...
* Togas nods.
MasterZen: try talking to Sir Ralph...
NuclearisWinterius: Welcome HG
* NuclearisWinterius sets mode: +o History_Guy1
Togas: our saving grace (in their eyes) was that we told them about the galley instead of them just finding it and killing it.
Panzer_32: Togas: how do you get the map?
Togas: since we just moved it there last turn.
Togas: we have only a map of Voxia
Togas: we need a map of GS
Sharpe: so you are planning to scout around the GS coast then?
Togas: we want to, yes.
Togas: hopefully we'll get that chance.
BetaHound: That is the same story GoW used.
Togas: wouldn't surprise me
MasterZen: which they bought :P
BetaHound: yes
Sharpe: admittedly we don't see much of GS at the moment
Togas: that galley holds 2 horsemen. The next galley holds 2 swords, but we can put pikes in it instead, as it's still near the Spanish coast
BetaHound: S - you feel the map of GS is more important than the show of solidarity on North estonia?
MasterZen: swords or med infs?
Togas: we belive that we can show solidarity without landing horses, yes.
BetaHound: And that we will be scrambling to defend cities for the next few turns?
Togas: MZ -- swords.
MasterZen: if they call our bluff we'll be having a shooting war with those guys
Sharpe: How does each team feel about GS anyway?
Togas: there is still the option of us sending iron to Vox. I'm not quite sure why that idea was dismissed.
MasterZen: swords will be at odds to hit pikes
BetaHound: We had originally planned on using that as a sign of non-aggression towards GS.
BetaHound: It may still be a factor - or on the flip side - it may be seen as a sign of weakness.
Sharpe: Togas, wouldn't that leave you without an iron for the moment?
BetaHound: Yes - it does.
Togas: not more than a turn
Togas: we have our workers near the 2nd iron.
BetaHound: Yes - iron would be very useful.
Panzer_32: the one in the mountains?
Togas: yes
BetaHound: But it may also get you on GS hit list.
History_Guy1: That's the trouble.
Togas: oh, it will...
vondrack: sorry for a dumb question... but how do GS find out who is providing the iron?
Togas: giving it away will p*ss them off to no end. Selling it will make them angry, but at least we can justify it and claim neutrality.
vondrack: I read it is "easy"
vondrack: but have no idea...
Panzer_32: They will assume/eliminate others
Togas: they have an embassy with Vox, so they can use the f4 screen to see who has a deal with Vox.
Panzer_32: right
History_Guy1: Vondrack, they seem to have their own suspect's list, they'd narrow things down.
Panzer_32: the embassy doesn't close during war?
History_Guy1: Yes, that's right.
Togas: it closes, but the F4 screen remains a good source of intel
Panzer_32: hehe must make use of that more often in my own games
vondrack: hmmm... if GoW, ND, and RPers all trade SOMETHING to Vox then...
Togas: anyhow, they cannot be 100% sure, but with only us and ND having extra iron ... it's not hard to figure it out
Togas: maybe if ND trades horses
Togas: we send iron
Togas: and GoW sends wine
MasterZen: we send wine
BetaHound: Togas - as to the map - we can give you our world map which shows what you really need to know about GS.
MasterZen: get the stormchickens drunk
Togas: but still, GS is going to assume it's us
BetaHound: And - GoW troops will be visible,
BetaHound: And all nations will have protested their takeover of Noerth Est.
Sharpe: Hmm if ND also traded with Vox, the iron could also come from them?
BetaHound: I don't think they will undertake a cross channel invasion of RP.
Togas: GoW troops = mercenaries. It's no surprise to see them in a fight. Seeing Spanish horses, however, especially after we made such a big fight in chat to get that galley south ... it seems to them like our puppetmaster hands at work
BetaHound: Sharpe - agreed. Especially if ND provdied horses.
vondrack: hmmmm... would it be possible to sell that iron to, say, GoW, who would in turn sell to Voxes?
BetaHound: puppetmaster???
BetaHound: ah - your hands - sorry - slow on the uptake.
Togas: You know, GS's belief that we're the secret puppetmasters that made you fight them
Panzer_32: I don't think thats possible
BetaHound: yes - understood.
BetaHound: bozos
BetaHound: GS that is.
MasterZen: just tell them RP hangs alot with GoW these days and their mercenary ways are starting to stick...
Togas:
BetaHound: sounds good to me.
History_Guy1: Heh. That's not bad.
vondrack: hm, just checking - trading for iron, using it to upgrade whatever is needed and immediately "breaking" the deal is cheating, right?
Panzer_32: I don't think so
Togas: I don't think so either...
vondrack: then what's the problem?
Togas: would it be possible for us to Give, and then you accept, update, and the break the deal?
vondrack: RPers send their iron to Voxes, Voxes upgrade, and break the deal
Togas:
vondrack: GS will never be able to see any trade line on the F4 screen
* Nimitz has joined #tigertalks
Panzer_32: it would involve declaring war temporarily. GS might see this and might make a connection.
BetaHound: Other than we can't use it right now. Most of our units are south of Elipolis.
NuclearisWinterius: hey admiral
Nimitz: hey all
Panzer_32: so we wait until we can use it
BetaHound: hello Nimitz
BetaHound: agreed

[vondrack]

And part II:

MasterZen: sounds good
History_Guy1: Hello Nimitz
vondrack: declaring war? why? I think you can break a deal even without declaring a war? or not?
Togas: I see no problem with sending an emergency iron shipment, you guys will just have to break it off somehow.
Nimitz: so whats happenned
BetaHound: OK - but our immediate concern is 7 units in North Estonia.
MasterZen: cut the supply
MasterZen: pillage a road or something
BetaHound: Nimitz - looong story.
Togas: to cut the supply we'd have to do it next turn
Togas: for 1 turn GS would see the trade active.
Togas: and, we'd have to cut BOTH irons
Togas: because if we cut one, we lose our iron, but the trade remains.
NuclearisWinterius: bye all
vondrack: bye
* NuclearisWinterius has quit IRC (Quit: )
MasterZen: yes ture
MasterZen: *true
MasterZen: hmm..
History_Guy1: Bye Nuc
vondrack: I would have to test it, but I believe it is possible to break the deal from the F4/trading screen...
vondrack: by clicking on it
* Panzer_32 sets mode: +o Nimitz
vondrack: like the war/peace trick we had to use to get over the crash-point
History_Guy1: War against Egypt seems too risky. The only war that could defeat them is a guerilla war in which all of the Bobian civs took part.
Nimitz: this is going to get complex if vox survives the war
Togas: Step 1) Post that peace proposal, perhaps invite those of us who agree with the proposal to state their support.
Nimitz: there going to have to go through the peace war trick
BetaHound: We promise to lay real low. Exit the world stage.
Togas: We all post our support of the peace
MasterZen: and don't forget to mention the "good faith" things you've done
Togas: but if GS refuses to budge on their unreasonable demands, we escallate, threaten to send "peace keepers" to Estonia ... perhaps at Vox's request
vondrack: side-note: Beta, stress how GS slaughtered your troops that "surrendered"
MasterZen: yeah, that was the "good faith" thing I mentioned
MasterZen: tell them of the cruel and horrendous slaughter, as only Beta can!
vondrack: LoL
History_Guy1: I like that. They blackened their honor. Why should they be dealt with honorably?
BetaHound:
Togas: Beta, you could always publicly call us out and invite those of us who believe in peace to send peacekeepers to stop the conflict
Nimitz: the info minister ya
BetaHound: But we continue the war against their trrops in the north.
Togas: frankly, if you kept fighting, I doubt any of us would care much at all.
BetaHound:
Togas: Propoganda-wise, you guys have won the information war.
Togas: it's not as if any of us are going to change our opinions on it now.
BetaHound: hehe
MasterZen: heck, if there was a "propaganda victory", you'd have won the game already
vondrack: hm, but that's "defending the very homeland of The One" (re: fighting in the North)
MasterZen: GS diplomacy sucks
BetaHound: agreed - to both MZ and vondrack.
Togas: GS diplomacy reminds me of Kruschev banging his shoe on the podium and shouting "we will bury you!"
Sharpe: Well GS is the #1 civ right now...
BetaHound: OK - bgut I have the real concern of their troops in North Estonia.
BetaHound: That is why I wanted the RP horses.
Togas: I hear you, but I don't see how we can deal with that stack this turn.
History_Guy1: Aye, they might do just that...
vondrack: right, Beta, tell us - what you can field against this force of GS there?
BetaHound: one sec.
vondrack: and where exactly did they land?
Togas: to the NW of Eliopolis
Sharpe: good point
History_Guy1: Above Eliopolis
Panzer_32: GoW can land 3 units on Estonia this turn and 1 next turn (3 units include a horse, others are slowmovers)
Togas: I think they have 2 WC, 2 pikes, and 3 Inf
Panzer_32: Farthest south we can land is SE of Whittlich
Nimitz: not good
Nimitz: the GS force
History_Guy1: It's a military chokepoint.
vondrack: NW of Elipolis - that is just behind the chokepoint city, right?
History_Guy1: Yep.
vondrack: what is the Elipolis garrison like?
Sharpe: so GS's chariots can reach the square between Beta and Harry by next turn if they want
Panzer_32: sorry, S of Whittlich
BetaHound: OK - the Elipolis garrison is not stellar.
BetaHound: 3 spear and one warrior
Nimitz: not good
vondrack: no chance to reinforce?
History_Guy1: Not stellar? Might repulse the chariots, but other than that...
BetaHound: Surrounding Inchon we have: 3 pults, 6 pikes, 14 immortals
Nimitz: thats not bad
MasterZen: that wont repulse the infs
vondrack: what can you move back to Elipolis? some pikes?
vondrack: at least one...
Panzer_32: I suggest moving all of those to Elipolis
History_Guy1: If they capture, will they burn? It looks too strategically important for that.
BetaHound: Coming back from the south we have: 7 oikes, 4 Immortals, 1 spear, 4 warriors.
Sharpe: yeah any units on that hill SE of Elipolis
Panzer_32: Inchon is not too strategically important
vondrack: taking Inchon does little good, not losing Elipolis does a lot of good
vondrack: exactly
vondrack: moving two pikes back to Elipolis should do the trick
BetaHound: No one can reach it next turn.
MasterZen: what the hell is an Oike?
BetaHound: Just the spears I counted.
vondrack: damn
BetaHound: Voxian pike. An Oike!
Nimitz: pray for luck
MasterZen: two pikes plus the 3 spearman and a warrior should be able to hold for 1 turn
History_Guy1: I ask again...what's the chance of them burning Eliopolis if they catch it?
BetaHound: Probably good.
Sharpe: too bad you can't draft units yet
BetaHound: yes.
Sharpe: well you can poprush at least one unit
BetaHound: yes.
vondrack: will not be technically "ready", I think
BetaHound: nope
vondrack: plus, it would be just another spear
vondrack: regs or vets there?
Sharpe: both true
BetaHound: regs
MasterZen: damn
BetaHound: I say we let them hgit Elipois. It will damage their unitrs and draw the south - which is what we want.
History_Guy1: So, despite the strategic value of the city, they'd probably burn it? If so...I'm sorry, chaps.
BetaHound: n/p
BetaHound: It can be rebuilt.
BetaHound: I would rather they rebuilt it than kept it.
BetaHound: we rebuilt
History_Guy1: Assuredly. I just hope that this one helps to damage Egypt very badly indeed.
Panzer_32: I don't think its necessarily as bad as we think
Sharpe: well with Walls your spears will be like pikes at least
Panzer_32: the spearmen are fortified for more than a turn?
BetaHound: P32 - I agree.
vondrack: yeah, just a little bit of luck is all you need
BetaHound: Yes - one is. Two would just be moving there
vondrack: if at least 1 medinf fails, you have a very good chance
BetaHound: They have 3 med inf, two pikes, two chariots.
History_Guy1: Well, they have five offensive units?
BetaHound: And I for one - hope they use them all against Elipolis.
vondrack: chariots kinda lack the punch though...
Panzer_32: say infs take out 2 spears, 2 WCs have to take out a spear and a warrior. If either one of them fails, its up to the pikes.
History_Guy1: Ah. Well, two are useless in the attack, two more won't break through...
BetaHound: Yes - even the warrior may hold them off.
Sharpe: more likely they would use the chariots to try to intercept any reinforcements coming south
History_Guy1: The Infantry will be making the assault...the Chariots will only go in as a last resort.
BetaHound: MZ and P32 - when can you land the four units?
Sharpe: without iron your reinforcements would likely be archers or spears or warriors which chariots can easily handle
MasterZen: I think the units are ready
BetaHound: Next turn?
Togas: if I were them, I'd use the chariots to cut the roads
BetaHound: Togas - that is what I figure will happen.
History_Guy1: Beta, maybe the are being sent in to tear up as much as they can. It's a raid.
BetaHound: That is my real fear. I would rather they attack Elipolis.
Panzer_32: MZ and P32 - when can you land the four units? 3 units this turn, 1 next turn
Sharpe: Let's say we propose the peace treaty and GS refuses, what then?
BetaHound: Ah - that would work. Whereabouts?
Panzer_32: S of Whittlich is the farthest south we can go to land this turn
BetaHound: South of Wittlich city
BetaHound: great. That is what I am worried about. At all costs we need to protect Wittlich, The Voice and Miller Town.
vondrack: thinking it over, I doubt it is a raiding party - a raiding party would most likely land much further to the North
History_Guy1: Yes, that's the trouble. A guerrila action in the midst of your own country would be much more effective than losing the whole stack taking out one city.
BetaHound: Either way - if it buys some time - and lets us close the gates - then that is Good!
vondrack: agreed
Panzer_32: If you want, we can land the turn after next turn on the hills by Beta-by the sea
BetaHound: vondrack - that was as far north as they could - and I er - left a tile uncovered by mistake.
BetaHound: P32 - I think the Wittlich landing is best. We will grant you an ROP - you can use the roads and do damage.
* WhiteBandit has joined #tigertalks
WhiteBandit: holy crap!
WhiteBandit: good day
WhiteBandit:
BetaHound: hello WB
Nimitz: hey
vondrack: hi
Panzer_32: ok, do we have an embassy with each other though
BetaHound: Thisa si the save Vox's ass chat.
BetaHound: Are you in the right room?
WhiteBandit: i'm on RP
WhiteBandit:
MasterZen: yes he is
BetaHound: j/k
Nimitz: lol
BetaHound: Panzer - not sure. Can you set one up. We do not have much cash. We will pay half.
vondrack: we could help here if cash was the problem
History_Guy1: Hello White Bandit. We're just wondering how to smite the Egyptian scum.
Panzer_32: I'll check
WhiteBandit: gotcha
BetaHound: looks like not.
Panzer_32: ok, how much does it cost for you?
Nimitz: how about you run them into the ground
BetaHound: 73
Panzer_32: 30 for us
BetaHound: Yowzer. We will send you the 15 next turn.
* ZargonX has joined #tigertalks
* ChanServ sets mode: +o ZargonX
Nimitz: hey
vondrack: heya, Z!
ZargonX: ah, hello everyone!
MasterZen: heey
ZargonX: finally made it back online...
Togas:
Sharpe: Hi Zargon!
Nimitz: good to see ya
ZargonX: glad to be back!
ZargonX:
BetaHound: Greetings Zargon!
BetaHound: Zargon - we wnated to tahnk-you for the commitement of 10 galleys and 20 troops.
BetaHound: It will help the cause.
ZargonX: heheh
BetaHound:
BetaHound: So - we will do our announcement.
History_Guy1: Hello Zargon
Nimitz: people tell me thes things before you do them ;
ZargonX: hi History Guy!
Nimitz: I need to know for policy
BetaHound: I will leave it up to each civ to respond publicly or directly to GS
BetaHound: GoW will land next turn.
Nimitz: ;
Togas: excellent
BetaHound: RP and the horsemen - I'm still not sure.
Togas: I'm also unsure
BetaHound: I would prefer you to land.
BetaHound: And I think you can see my rationale for it.
* Kloreep has joined #tigertalks
Kloreep: Hi.
Nimitz: hey
MasterZen: look, we all must coordinate: first publically via the thread
BetaHound: hey Loreep
Togas: I hear you, but I don't see how landing 2 horses will help much :/
BetaHound: Klo
MasterZen: then with the joint military committment
MasterZen: again, it is a bluff
MasterZen: we hope they won't call it
BetaHound: MZ - exactly.
History_Guy1: Hello Kloreep
Togas: however, since our turn is last, we have some time to think about this and discuss it
Togas: so I will certainly keep this open and hopefully talk more about it with all of you and with my team.
BetaHound: Lnd on the hill south of Beta-by-the sea. Nice resort town by the way, Great women and wine.
* MasterZen sets mode: +o Kloreep
* MasterZen sets mode: +o WhiteBandit
History_Guy1: It won't help, really. The defensive units are better.
MasterZen: wait till you try our GoW wine...
Togas: it's good stuff
BetaHound: HG - yes - but is the presence that counts.
ZargonX: you haven't had anything until you've had a vintage '50 Pinot Vondrack
History_Guy1: Master Zen...wait till you try our RP squids.
History_Guy1: Try this little guy. Calamari for everyone.
Sharpe: Admittedly GS will hesitate if they see troops from 2 foreign nations in Vox
BetaHound: Yes Sharpe - that is the key.
MasterZen: bah, wait till you try a '69 Dom Panzergnon
vondrack: guys, can we get back to the point, please? 4:30am here
Nimitz: hey were'd you get the grapes
BetaHound: yes - plse.
MasterZen: ok summary:
Sharpe: GS is strong, but they can't be thinking that they can take on 3 civs at once
MasterZen: Beta starts a thread
MasterZen: 2) we all publically show our support
History_Guy1: Sharpe, no, three civs will be a match. Hopefully we can get support from others as well.
MasterZen: 3) military committment gives substance to said support
MasterZen: 4) we keep on chatting to discuss political and military developments
BetaHound: Question - who should approach ND?
Togas: all of us
Togas:
BetaHound: yes - true.
Togas: but MZ and I, I'm sure, can send them a message tonight.
MasterZen: Togas, I think we should at least PM them
BetaHound: That would work.
vondrack: good idea
MasterZen: crosspost
BetaHound: As will I
ZargonX: We can contact ND as well
MasterZen: I can e-mail them tonight
MasterZen: we all should though
BetaHound: OK - great - can vondrack go to bed then?
History_Guy1: We should all approach ND.
BetaHound: And folks - we are serious about lying low for awhile. We will try yo avoid causing this much havoc in the future.
BetaHound: to avoid
History_Guy1: Aye.
Togas: awwww
Togas: what fun is that??
Nimitz: if only things had gone the other way
BetaHound:
MasterZen: Vox is now synonymous with mayhem
BetaHound: yes - we were about 6 turns too late getting there.
ZargonX: One Voice, and boy is it a shouter
BetaHound: hehe
Togas: You're still our heros
Nimitz: while lux is synonymous smoke
Nimitz: with smoke
MasterZen: hahahaha
BetaHound: OK - well one and all. Thank you.
Sharpe: you mean Lux's ruins are still burning?
Nimitz: lol
MasterZen: we turned them into whore-houses
BetaHound: But I do believe we have a common interest here - and it is not about saving Vox.
History_Guy1: Nimitz, Lux is synonymous with just about anything disparaging...
Panzer_32: GoW has respiratory problems b/c of Lux's still burning cities
* MasterZen sneezes
History_Guy1: Allergies, eh?
ZargonX: BH: agreed
MasterZen: wait, before we finish...
BetaHound: yes?
BetaHound: team hug?
History_Guy1: Aye?
MasterZen: we have not yet discussed the worst case scenario
Togas: LOL
Sharpe: Yeah, anyone know how strong GS really is? Aside from being #1 that is
History_Guy1: Please, spare us, Beta...
BetaHound: MZ - we have a plan b.
MasterZen: worst case scenario: they call our bluff, and get militarily lucky
History_Guy1: MZ, worst case? Egypt smashes Vox, and kills everyone else.
History_Guy1: That too.
MasterZen: well, that's the incredibly-ridiculously-ludicrously-worse scenario
BetaHound: We run for the hills. With what we can.
MasterZen: hills turn into sea eventually... what after?
Panzer_32: which hills?
BetaHound: Under discussion.
History_Guy1: MZ, I see. That sounds about right.
Togas: gotcha
BetaHound: P32 - do not worry.
BetaHound: But's let think positively!!
MasterZen: we don't worry, you're the ones that should!
BetaHound: Ah - I don't think we are destined to win this game.
BetaHound: We just want to live and have some fun.
Togas: if you survive for a UN vote ....
BetaHound: haha
ZargonX: fun... what is this fun you speak of?
BetaHound: Hadn't thought of that.
MasterZen: UN vote would be just so ridiculously funny...
BetaHound: Vox might for GS....
BetaHound:
History_Guy1: Zargon...that's what we ask when the Egyptians are tying us between two bent palm trees...
BetaHound: SR for Sec Gen.
Togas: god no!
MasterZen: ha ha ha
History_Guy1: Horror.......
BetaHound: sorry Togas. Didn't mena for you to lose your dinner.
Sharpe: LOL GS would probably nominate Grog for Sec Gen
BetaHound: OK guys - so is it a wrap.
Panzer_32: Vox: Remeber to send 15 gold so we can embassy you
MasterZen: well, I'd vote for grog :P
BetaHound: ok.
BetaHound: Next turn OK.
History_Guy1: Grog? He's dead!
History_Guy1: Aye.
Nimitz: good for Vox
History_Guy1: So it is written, so it shall be.
Kloreep: Poor Grog is dead... a candle lights his bed... he's looking oh so peaceful and serene. (And serene!)
BetaHound: OThanks once again folks.
Nimitz: we no longer have to worry about him
MasterZen: no problem
MasterZen: always glad to have a Rest-Of-World conference
Sharpe: LOL as if we have done this before
ZargonX: this is like our League of Nations meeting...
ZargonX: a first!
Togas: true
MasterZen: haha
BetaHound: See you in the public forum - where Vox will play poor down-trodden, peace loving civ that we are.
MasterZen: oh.. if only Trip were here! LOL
ZargonX: seriously, where is our world historian?
BetaHound: Bye guys!!!
Kloreep: Bye Beta!
Togas: peace, Beta
Sharpe: he would say , now why didn't you do this for Lux!!
History_Guy1: Kloreep, his mother waits for the sound of his boots upon the stairs...sounds that will never come!
vondrack: Bye, everybody!
* BetaHound has quit IRC (Quit: )

[Tiberius]

I must say that the plan doen't look bad. It might work. With all of the teams openly supporting Vox, some ready to sending troops, it might work.

I have an idea that wasn't discussed: other than declaring support to Vox we (and the others, too) could threaten GS with a full-scale embargo (no trades, no tech exchange, nothing). That should scare them.

[vondrack]

To keep you up-to-date, here is a chatlog of my small talk with Eli. Nothing extremely important, but there is a bit about the leak that changed our Legos Minor plan from a secret to a "public secret".

Plus, a smart idea about how to "hop" most of the Voxian population to Legos (if this is accepted by GS, we shall use the workers temporarily deposited in our lands to clear some jungle around Legopolis...).

Session Start: Sun Jun 15 21:56:09 2003
Session Ident: Eli
Session Ident: Eli (Eli@bzq-70-110.red.bezeqint.net)
Eli: Hey.
vondrack:
vondrack: hi!
vondrack: up and down, up and down today...
Eli: Can I ask something?
vondrack: of course
vondrack: go ahead
Eli: Can you hold your turn for 24 hours, or at least as much as you can? We send a peace proposal to GS and I want them to have as much time as possible to discuss it and negotiate.
Eli: We're already holding the turn,.
vondrack: yes, of course, we will sit on the save as long as necessary
Eli: Thanks
vondrack: the peace is in our interest, too
vondrack: as you probably know, we had a big chat with GS last night
Eli: Great, thanks.
Eli: o, I dont kn
Eli: oops.
vondrack: ah
Eli: No, I havent heard about the chat.
vondrack: I thought it would leak out
vondrack: anyway
vondrack: we had a major chat, intervening
vondrack: offering something to GS to make them consider more than just the "kill 'em all solution"
vondrack: considering the developments today
vondrack: I hope we are getting somewhere
vondrack: but it needs time
vondrack: Beta's apology helped big time, I believe
vondrack: so - we would hold the save anyway
Eli: Thanks. And yes, Beta's apology helped. I got tipped from GS that it's a major problem so I asked him to consider apologizing.
Eli: And luckily he did the wise thing.
vondrack: right... your contacts with GS... may I ask you something?
vondrack: have you ever mentioned to your contact there we had a plan to help you flee to Legos Minor?
Eli: I dont really understand what you mean. The whole world knows that we're leaving to Lego.
vondrack: since when?
Eli: Umm. I dont think I know since when. But i've seen people mentioning it in the forums for a few days now.
vondrack: when we came to the chat last night, GS knew about the plan - although it was supposed to be secret
Eli: Ah... Yes.
vondrack: people were suggesting it should be Lego ceding some of its land, that's true
vondrack: but nobody was supposed to know there was a plan already worked out
Eli: Let's just say that there was no way to formalize the proposed agreement without letting people know that Lego is the new land.
Eli: It's my mistake, I should've insisted that it will be kept only among those who HAD to know.
vondrack: ok, now it is clear
vondrack: I understand why it happened
vondrack: just that it seriously undermined our position last night
vondrack: so I wanted to know where it came from
vondrack: if it was from within Vox or my own team
vondrack: no problem now
Eli: Two days ago there was 0% chance for an agreement. I had to act independently to get things done and now I can give you an 80% chance that there will be an agreement.
Eli: So sorry for the problems it caused.
vondrack: I see... I would just like to note one thing
vondrack: it would be fine if we were told when something like this happens
vondrack: it would be less of an issue if we had a chance to prepare
Eli: Yes, I apologize. I didnt estimate that it will leak.
vondrack: when we came to the chat and the first question asked was "We heard Vox is moving in... when?"
vondrack: our presentation was seriously screwed
vondrack: )
vondrack: yeah
vondrack: there is ALWAYS a leak
vondrack: but as I said - no problem now
vondrack: I just wanted to know
Eli: Btw, have you heard about our new idea to speed the evacuation?
vondrack: probably not
Eli: If we have a city on your continent.
Eli: We can gift you all our population in the form of workers.
vondrack: yes, you will have that city, we have already agreed on that
vondrack: that's smart!
Eli: And then, when our capitol on Lego Minor is established, you can gift them back to us.
vondrack: yes, a very good idea
Eli: This way we need far less ships and the population will move MUCH faster.
vondrack: heh, I happen to like this idea a lot... would you mind if we put these workers into good use while you are evacuating?
Eli: Sure. They're industrial so despite the penalty in turns they'll be quite productive
Eli: Maybe it will be best to use them to pave a road to Lego Minor.
vondrack: maybe... but I believe that it will be better to use them for improvements of our own land... later countering by sending our workers to help you out on Legos Minor
vondrack: the problem with L.M. is
vondrack: LOTS of barbs
vondrack: we do not have units enough to guard all the workers there
vondrack: we will need you to found cities first
vondrack: to push the FoW off
vondrack: btw - have you decided on the location of The New Voice?
vondrack: regular grass or bonus grass?
Eli: Hmm. Will you be able to spare 2-3 units to protect 2-3 stacks of workers that will build the road?
Eli: We havent discussed the location yet.
vondrack: within a couple of turns, hopefully yes (re: units)
vondrack: ok, no problem, there is still time (re: location)
Eli: Great. If the agreement passes we will start gifting workers as soon as a city on LM is available.
vondrack: though... I am not sure about if the road does much good - there is nothing we could trade to you, but dyes
vondrack: you will have your own iron & horses on L.M.
vondrack: ok, that will be within 10 turns, I believe (the city on LM)
Eli: Great.
vondrack: our settler is going to leave Legopolis this turn
vondrack: a worker is already waiting in Panama
vondrack: they will get aboard of Giordano Bruno (our ferry)
vondrack: and sail over to L.M.
vondrack: escort (a sword) is already there, hunting barbs
vondrack: after the city is founded, we will add that worker immediately, so that you can poprush a spear
vondrack: defending a virtually defenseless city from "outside" would be a nightmare
vondrack: barbs would probably sack it more than once
vondrack: this way, we/you should be fine
Eli: Where will you found the city? At the location of The New Voice?
vondrack: yes, I believe that would be best
vondrack: since that is where your capital will hop after you abandon your settlements on Estonia
vondrack: or hand over... whatever
vondrack: so it should better be the central location
vondrack: but it is up to you - if you prefer a different location
vondrack: just tell us
vondrack: we do not plan to interfere with your interior affairs too much
vondrack: it would be fine to know if the central location is going to be the destination - within 3 turns
Eli: No, your solution is the optimal one.
vondrack: ah, ok
vondrack: we will head for the central location then
Eli: Yeah, and later on we'll decide where exactly to put it.
vondrack: exactly
vondrack: timeline:
vondrack: this turn - settler leaves Legopolis
vondrack: T+1 - settler arrives at Panama
vondrack: T+2 - settler+worker embark the galley
vondrack: T+3, T+4 - galley under way
vondrack: T+5 - settler+worker land
vondrack: T+6, T+7 - heading for the destination site
vondrack: T+8 - would arrive to the bonus grass site
vondrack: T+9 - would arrive to the regular grass site
vondrack: so T+8 is when we will need to know
Eli: Ok, pass a word when the time is close.
vondrack: k
Eli: There is something I always wanted to ask in the last time...
vondrack: yes?
Eli: Why do you allow Vox to move to LM?
vondrack: well, this question is not easy to answer
vondrack: gimme a sec to sort my thoughts out
vondrack: basically: because we feel it is in our best interest
vondrack: secondary reason is
vondrack: that we sort of hate to feel how everybody was excited about you attacking GS
vondrack: offered all kinds of help
vondrack: and when things went bleak
vondrack: meh... you know what I am talking about
Eli: Yeah
vondrack: we chose our side at that time
vondrack: and we are not going to write you off
Eli: You can be certain that we will do our best to help you win, now that we lost our chance
vondrack: it's not just GS that believes in honour
vondrack: yes, we hope that we will benefit from having you as a neighbour
vondrack: just as you will benefit from having us as a neighbour
Eli: Surviving. That's one hell of a benefit
vondrack: unlike between you and GS, I believe there is quite some trust between you and us
vondrack: heh, yes
Eli: Trust never was an issue. We went to war because we had no choice.
vondrack: I know
vondrack: was just reflecting all that bull**** in the public forum
vondrack: frankly... that was one hell of a crappy land you started with
vondrack: so little space
Eli: Yeah... We were ****ed by the gods.
vondrack: yup
vondrack: ok, Eli, I have some stuff to do now - we (in Lego) need to start discussing about general guidelines of our future coexistence and cooperation
vondrack: I am going to put together and post some vision
vondrack: since it will take us time to discuss it
vondrack: we now have like 10-20 turns to do that, but I would rather start soon
vondrack: so - 'twas a pleasure talking to you
Eli: Same here. Bue
Eli: Bye
vondrack: give my best regards to all Voxians
Eli:
vondrack: g'night!
Session Close: Sun Jun 15 23:15:20 2003

[Tiberius]

What was with that 50g repayment on turn 114? Was it part of the Mono-deal repayment (we decided to waive that, but we never sent an official announcement to Vox about it) or is it a repayment from the 120g loan? The later should have been paid in 20 turns, 6gpt, starting with the turn 123.

Radek, could you please ask Beta what was that 50g for? After his response we should decide what to do next about these loans. I seriously doubt that Vox will be able to pay 6gpt to honor the second loan, so maybe we should work on some alternative solutions (or waive that too).

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
What was with that 50g repayment on turn 114? Was it part of the Mono-deal repayment (we decided to waive that, but we never sent an official announcement to Vox about it) or is it a repayment from the 120g loan? The later should have been paid in 20 turns, 6gpt, starting with the turn 123.

Radek, could you please ask Beta what was that 50g for? After his response we should decide what to do next about these loans. I seriously doubt that Vox will be able to pay 6gpt to honor the second loan, so maybe we should work on some alternative solutions (or waive that too).

I believe I did PM Beta about us waiving the first loan in exchange for Feudalism, so these 50 gold should be part of the second loan repayment - they seem to be doing their best to pay us back ASAP.

I am waiting for Vox final word on the treaty draft - a brief line in the savegame email from Beta stated:

Will get back to you on our treaty arrangements shortly. Looks OK so far. Second galley on its way. 3rd next turn. 4th in a few turns. Remainder will be done via teleporting. Already a numebr of workers are piling up.

I'm going to wait for Vox to officially respond to our draft and sort remaining technical aspects only afterwards. I believe that with the treaty draft discussed inteam by both sides, a big chat might be a good idea...

[vondrack]

This has just arrived at my PMbox:

Hi vondrack.

Vox thought we should makle sure we are in agreement on accounting for the various loans and payments made to Vox from Lego.

The first instalment of 200 gold, in two payments of 100, was paid back via:

i) our new era tech for 50 gold.
ii) feudalism for 150 gold.

I think this is what we agreed to.

The second installment was 240 gold, in two instalments of 120.

i) The first 120 was a grant/payment as part of the engineering/theology deal yet to be transacted.

ii) The second 120 was a loan to be paid back over 20 turns, starting at a specific date. We have recently sent Lego 50 gold as an early repayment on that 120, so if my accounting is correct, Vox still owes Lego 70 gold.

Is this how you see it?

That being said, Vox also acknowledges that we owe you a lot more than that. Your tech deals were generous during the recent past, and of course, above and beyond that, you saving our butts, well as the advertisement says ... "priceless". However, we do hope to be able to pay you back over the remainder of the game.

We will also get back to you shortly on the larger agreement.

The peace deal is in place with GS.

And the de-population of our cities on Estonia continues.

We will keep you posted of how things are going. Can you give a precise timing on when the New Voice will be in place. And BTW, the location you pointed out to me in the chat (the bonus grassland tile) was perfect by us.

Take care. Greetings to ZargonX and the rest of Lego.

See you soon.

Beta.

ps - I think we also owe you a world map - or do you have our latest?

Briefly responding with "yes, the accounting is correct, and yes, you do owe us your WM".

[vondrack]

Just to keep everybody up to date:

vondrack wrote on 03-07-2003 17:34:
Hi, Beta!

No good news this time... despite Howard (our sword escort) killing four or five barbs while under way to The New Voice site, things are not looking good. We are 99% sure that if we founded the city on the next turn (as planned), it would be sacked by barbarians. There are too many of them around and Howard will not be able to handle all of them.

Barbs sacking the city could kill the extra pop point we are bringing along with the settler (a worker named 'Beta' ) to allow the spear poprush, therefore we would prefer delaying the city foundation by three turns. Two more escort units (medinfs) are landing on the next turn (this has been the fastest we were able to get them there) - within three turns, they should be able to cover the whole of The New Voice site perimeter against barbarians for those two or three turns we will need to hand the city safely over to you.

Is this acceptable for you?

The city would not be sacked on the very turn it would be founded... but one turn later, after becoming 'yours'. So it would be your treasury getting plundered... if you are really pressed for time, we could try proceeding as planned, knowingly going for the risk (well, it is much more of a certainty than risk).

Please, advise. (and if needed, notify GS, please)

Cheers,
Radek aka vondrack
the new FAM of Legoland

And Beta's response:

Beta wrote on 04-07-2003 00:02:
Yikes. You mean the natives aren't friendly!!?? Well, to hell with this. This deal is off.

Er - just a moment - maybe I spoke too soon. hehe

Hi Radek. I think the delay would be more than OK. We still need to wind down the cities - and it looks like a 4-6 turn horizon before we would be set to go. I can be more specific when I revisist the save and do some calcs. Had to play it in a hurry this morning. We are also working out the best way to do the transport - and we need to find out from GS if they mind us disbanding the capitol - as ione of Harry's scenarios requires.

So, the later timing would work fine, and the extra pop point would be useful. It will allow us to keep our 5 city set-up going for a bit longer. We are still generating breakeven cash flow. Engineering in 7 turns. We will be getting 35 gold from GoW. I tried to re-negotiate but no go. And RP honored their previous deal. 200 gold.

And we have gone hat in hand to GS, crying poor. We have offered to leave well before their 18 turn deadline in exchange for cash. I know - what gall. But hey - all they can do is say no, and they haven't done that yet.

Dissidentville changed hands last turn - so all our units are now in the north. All our cities are currently ungarrisoned. All our units and settlers and workers are parked on a hill outside Wittlich City. We have already disbanded several units. More to come next turn to get us down to our "limit" and to accelerate settler builds.

Units come in 7 shield (Immortal), 5 shield (spears), and 2 shield (warriors) currencies. It makes planning the settler builds to maximize shield useage fairly easy.

Two units and two settlers are well on their way via galleys. Two more empty galleys follow them. We have built two additional settlers and 7 workers waiting to transfer now. We expect to add 4 more settlers and 5 or 6 more workers to that in the next few turns. Plus some dozen units. So, in addition to the town you are providing, we should have 8 settlers and 12 workers. All in all - not bad. On the upside - we will soon have a large civilization city-wise than we have ever had.

Will discuss back at Vox, but unless you hear back from me - go with the safe and delayed option.

Congrats on your new position! Can we assume Zargon is still prez?

Thanks again to you and the Legolanders! See you soon. .... Bruce aka Beta

Note: Voxes will be able to found NINE (eight plus The New Voice) cities shortly after hopping to Legos Minor. This is extremely good news. When I was doing my sim on Legos Minor, I was able to squeeze in 10 cities total (and I was not only covering, but working almost every single tile, I think).