Vox Controli - correspondence & foreign affairs

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by redstar1
But sometimes we have to put ourselves first, the courthouse in Karina being a prime example. Has anyone modelled the corruption cut and the boost in production from this?

Look here. Other, courthouse-less simulations for comparison are at the top of the same page. Basically, Karina has 60% corruption w/out the courthouse and 40% corruption with (both of those figures are post-Rep). Very much worth the gold, I'd say, though I don't know if it would make up for itself if it has to be built without a rush.

Originally posted by vondrack

Plus gold to allow us to lower the tax rate and increase the science rate

Increase what? We are at 100% research... if you mean we will have to knock down our research slider a bit after switching to Republic, to be able to pay for all our city improvements and units, then it is necessary to mention the EXTRA gold flowing into our treasury because of lower corruption and extra commerce.

Well, if we have extra gold once in Republic, we could raise the science slider and run a deficit for a while. But that isn't a necessary move.

Overall, you've convinced me we should give Vox a loan. Just don't pay them too much money.

[Sharpe]

I am not opposed to giving Vox a loan - but 200 gold right now is a bit too much right now in my opinion.

How would 80-100 gold for the map be insulting when they have offered it to us for free? (from the Nimitz chat). I am sure they would understand that we could only afford 80-100 gold right now due to upgrade and goldrush needs in the near future.

The sooner we are able to get the FP the better - it will benefit all of our southern cities greatly.

We will need to upgrade our units - I for one don't want to have very many warriors left by the time we change governments or soon afterwards.

We will need to upgrade to med inf for our swordsmen - especially due to our delay in getting chivalry and upgrading to knights. We need something to counter the UU of our eastern neighbours - and for them chivalry is likely a major priority. Relying on our merc shouldn't be our only option. Getting 2 mercs in our northern cities asap should be another priority.

Vox defeating GS shouldn't be our #1 priority - we have enough problems on our own as is. It may be extremely useful to us in the long run - GS is/was our major commerce competitor - but the ND-GoW alliance probably easily exceeds our tech ability and can research 2 techs at once.

Let's see how the early stages of the war goes - it might go very good or very bad for Vox or somewhere in between. They do currently have 22 immos - the cost of upgrading the planned 15 others is about 600 gold admittedly. However, I am wary about doing much until I see the map.

And as for the 15 turns to switch to Republic, I wasn't aware that had been decided already - I still favor switching after we get Theology out of the way.

As for Vox helping us tremendously - get serious, they haven't done THAT much - you are overstating their usefulness to us so far - GoW and even ND (by their map ) have helped us out much more - even getting Republic from GS will help us immensely.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
I am not opposed to giving Vox a loan - but 200 gold right now is a bit too much right now in my opinion.

I would have to repeat what I have already said several times. Your opinion is one thing - mine is another.

Originally posted by Sharpe
How would 80-100 gold for the map be insulting when they have offered it to us for free? (from the Nimitz chat). I am sure they would understand that we could only afford 80-100 gold right now due to upgrade and goldrush needs in the near future.

We are not talking about buying their map - they did say they'd give it to us for free. We are talking about supporting Voxian war efforts. 80-100 gold is going to make a small difference (less than half of what 200 gold would make ). Instead of establishing ourselves as a truly helpful ally, we would look like mean bastards that look after themselves only, giving up only crumbs not really needed. An ally is someone helping even if it costs something, not someone generously throwing leftovers that are not needed "for his own needs".

The sooner we are able to get the FP the better - it will benefit all of our southern cities greatly.

That's certainly true. How does that relate to the war loan issue though?

We will need to upgrade our units - I for one don't want to have very many warriors left by the time we change governments or soon afterwards.

Even with a loan of 200 gold, we will still have ~400 gold left (even if not slowing down our research). That is enough to upgrade the remaining 4 warriors and rush the Courthouse in Karina.

We will need to upgrade to med inf for our swordsmen - especially due to our delay in getting chivalry and upgrading to knights. We need something to counter the UU of our eastern neighbours - and for them chivalry is likely a major priority. Relying on our merc shouldn't be our only option. Getting 2 mercs in our northern cities asap should be another priority.

As I said, I see no reason why we should upgrade our swords to medieval infantry prior to any threats actually emerging. Keeping them in barracked cities (Panama, Jacxkson), ready for an instant upgrade shall be just as fine. Also, speaking about this possibility, we're ignoring the fact that if our eastern neighbours (I suppose you are talking about Bobians, including GoW) were really planning to attack us, they would never trade Feudalism (and Chivalry) to us, making the upgrade impossible anyway.

Vox defeating GS shouldn't be our #1 priority - we have enough problems on our own as is. It may be extremely useful to us in the long run - GS is/was our major commerce competitor - but the ND-GoW alliance probably easily exceeds our tech ability and can research 2 techs at once.

Care to state these problem, Steve? Pretty please! All I can see is that we may have to stop researching for 3 turns to make the money we are talking about. That is - considering that we know of no other team researching along the Edu branch of the tech-tree - hardly a problem.

And as for the 15 turns to switch to Republic, I wasn't aware that had been decided already - I still favor switching after we get Theology out of the way.

See here. If you favour switching earlier, it may be a good idea to provide an analysis showing the benefits of such approach.

As for Vox helping us tremendously - get serious, they haven't done THAT much - you are overstating their usefulness to us so far - GoW and even ND (by their map ) have helped us out much more - even getting Republic from GS will help us immensely.

I do not believe I am overstating the usefulness of the current Voxian efforts to us. And if it sounds like I am not serious, then be sure I am very serious about all this. The importance of significantly slowing or stopping GS is magnitude bigger for us than what GoW & ND did for us combined.

ATTENTION, EVERYBODY

Steve indicated he wanted to hold a vote on this issue. And I agree this is a matter serious enough to hold a vote. Prior to posting one, I'd like to make sure I post a vote that will be "fair" in that it will include all options and will allow everybody to vote for a one he really supports, while leading to a meaningful and usable result.

Thus, I would like everybody to answer the following questions here now:

1) Shall we provide Vox Controli with a war loan of 200 gold, if they ask for it?
2) If not, then what is the maximum amount you would agree to?
3) What special requirements you'd condition the loan with?
4) Do you support our government switch right after Logville poprushes its Temple? (in 13 turns from now, I think) If not, what is your gov switch preference?

EDIT:
5) Shall we arrange the deal to get the Vox map NOW or after the war is over? Or both?
Just a feeling, but I imagine that if we provide them with the loan they'd need and explain we'd prefer getting the map of their continent when it is complete, rather than just a map of the Voxian current territory, they may throw the current map in as a free extra - as that is basically what they have already offered, their current map for free... we may wish to make the post-war map part of the loan deal.

If you can think of anything else that needs to be addressed, add your comments, please. Once I have input from the active members, I will do my best to post the poll covering the issue in detail.

[Sharpe]

Care to state these problem, Steve? Pretty please! All I can see is that we may have to stop researching for 3 turns to make the money we are talking about. That is - considering that we know of no other team researching along the Edu branch of the tech-tree - hardly a problem.

Well our ally Vox is hardly doing any research. And what are we going to do during those proposed turns between the discovery of Theology and the completion of the poprushes? Also don't forget the lost beakers during the time we will be in anarchy. And don't forget that the other blocks are all religious and thus lost less beakers than us during their switches ...

...and on top of all this you are talking about adding 3-4 more turns with no beakers? We are losing enough turns of research as it is! Relatively to the other civs we lose more ground in research. Certainly our ally Vox can't compensate for us as they are probably at 80 to 100 % gold right now ...

I would have to repeat what I have already said several times. Your opinion is one thing - mine is another.

So we have agreed to disagree - fine - both of our opinions are equal and equally important.

I do not believe I am overstating the usefulness of the current Voxian efforts to us. And if it sounds like I am not serious, then be sure I am very serious about all this. The importance of significantly slowing or stopping GS is magnitude bigger for us than what GoW & ND did for us combined.

Well you are overstating it - the GoW trade catchup was immensely important - Vox has done little for us so far in comparison.

The sooner we are able to get the FP the better - it will benefit all of our southern cities greatly.

That's certainly true. How does that relate to the war loan issue though?

Well you were the one talking about having to accept only a 250 goldrush instead of Kloreep's 360 gold proposal - that's 110 gold right there...

Even with a loan of 200 gold, we will still have ~400 gold left (even if not slowing down our research). That is enough to upgrade the remaining 4 warriors and rush the Courthouse in Karina.

Uh, admittedly it is from the previous 690bc turn, but it shows there 489 gold currently (should be 497 by the current turn) - minus 200 equals 289-297 gold NOT 400 gold left - more like 300 - not even enough to do the courthouse rush alone and not including the warrior upgrades.

[ZargonX]

As I see things at the moment, I can't make decision on whether I would approve a loan or not because as of yet, I have not seen the actual details of a loan. That is, when will we be giving it, what will be the repayment plan, any other conditions, etc. The most important item, of course, is the timing. Speaking only for myself, I can solidly say I will not approve any loans until I see a plan, in writing, covering all of those issues. Then I can make a decision.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Well our ally Vox is hardly doing any research.

Voxes are researching Engineering at 10% (40 turns). Which means they are saving cash, while still researching a "blocking" technology they will be able to provide to us (whatever the deal is going to be). As we will not need Engineering prior to finishing Education, this is perfectly fine.

And what are we going to do during those proposed turns between the discovery of Theology and the completion of the poprushes?

I do not think I understand the question... we can either start researching Education (maintaining our huge lead in the Edu branch), or we can stockpile money (making the 200 gold war loan to Voxes a non-issue even with all the proposed upgrades/rushes).

Also don't forget the lost beakers during the time we will be in anarchy. And don't forget that the other blocks are all religious and thus lost less beakers than us during their switches ...

Yet I still do not see anyone following us through Theology, being even remotely close to our progress there. So what's your point? Extra beakers are not relevant, if you do not use them for actually researching something. The religious civs are: RPers (we know their research capabilities are vastly inferior to ours, due to the bad city placement and absence of a solid core), NeuD (their research is also inferior to ours, plus they were losing few turns by finishing Currency on their own - thus we do not need to fear them catching up on us). And GS? Well... that's what all this is about. GS was SIGNIFICANTLY faster in researching than we were - they started with Feudalism (cost 32, 768 beakers) just one turn before we started with Theology. They have finished it last turn, AFAIK - that's 12 turns. That puts their research at 64 beakers per turn on average. Even considering the fact they had the advantage of their GA for the last 3 turns, it's scary. We are at 58 beakers per turn NOW (our average was about 44 beakers for the same time period). That's exactly why I consider supporting Voxes so important. GS started the game very well (considering economy) and we would have difficult times catching up peacefully.

...and on top of all this you are talking about adding 3-4 more turns with no beakers? We are losing enough turns of research as it is! Relatively to the other civs we lose more ground in research. Certainly our ally Vox can't compensate for us as they are probably at 80 to 100 % gold right now ...

The fact that someone has a fine research potential (not that I would see anyone but GoW in that situation) is not helpful, if there is nothing to research... and starting to research a 16-17 turn project just 3 turns later means you need about 20% higher research output to be able to discover it faster. I do not see anybody else being that potent research-wise. And if there is nobody like that, then we are safe in our branch of research, since we would be able to finish all our projects earlier than anyone else, thus making their investment more or less wasted (by lowering its trade potential significantly).

Unless I am totally wrong, we have about a 12-turn lead on the research of Theology. As we do not plan to trade this technology until we are done with Education, I believe it is safe to assume we will get both Theology and Education and will be able to trade those techs for other techs (and maybe gold). All we need THEN is to start at the same time as everybody else, since with all our cities, libraries, and republic, we will again outresearch anybody else (but GS, if left unhindered).

So we have agreed to disagree - fine - both of our opinions are equal and equally important.

Exactly. Be so kind and post your answers, please, so that I am able to prepare a poll as soon as possible.

Well you are overstating it - the GoW trade catchup was immensely important - Vox has done little for us so far in comparison.

Read my post carefully, Steve. I am comparing the significance of GS leaving the game or being badly hurt to what GoW & NeuD have done for us so far.

Well you were the one talking about having to accept only a 250 goldrush instead of Kloreep's 360 gold proposal - that's 110 gold right there...

Huh? Having to accept? I said there is no need to spend 360 gold on rushing a Courthouse in Karina. Kloreep was wrong, that's all - a Courthouse costs 80 shields, that's 80*4=320 gold even if rushed from scratch. And I showed there was a way to build the Courthouse in Karina at the same or shorter time using only 250 gold (the only difference is that we'd use a 2-pop rush instead of a 1-pop rush for the Temple build there - I haven't had time to check whether that may be a problem... but I do not think so).

Uh, admittedly it is from the previous 690bc turn, but it shows there 489 gold currently (should be 497 by the current turn) - minus 200 equals 289-297 gold NOT 400 gold left - more like 300 - not even enough to do the courthouse rush alone and not including the warrior upgrades.

For God's sake, play fair, Steve! Why do you present the data twisted in your favour? We are to receive 70 more gold from RPers and I would really be surprised if we do not disperse at least 2 more barb camps (2*25=50 gold). Even considering we will have to pay something for our city improvements and even if we make NO gold at all on the last turn of our research, that is still almost exactly 400 gold.

We cannot use more 4*40 gold at this very moment (warrior upgrades - and even those are impossible due to the deployment of our warriors far from barracked cities). Everything else will not be needed until we switch the government, which is at least 15 turns away.

I am not going to respond regarding this issue any more. I have explained my stance, reasons, and goals in great detail, running numbers, suggesting ways etc... Be so kind, everybody, answer the questions I asked above. I shall post a poll then and we'll hopefully be able to conclude this tiresome debate.

[Sharpe]

Thus, I would like everybody to answer the following questions here now:

1) Shall we provide Vox Controli with a war loan of 200 gold, if they ask for it?
No, the loan should be less than that.

2) If not, then what is the maximum amount you would agree to?
Preferably 80 gold, though I can support 100 gold too - absolute max would be 120 - though I would be reluctant to give that much.
3) What special requirements you'd condition the loan with?
Repayment conditions on that loan, their map and probably time to discuss the other loan (would be willing to wipe out part of that loan)

4) Do you support our government switch right after Logville poprushes its Temple? (in 13 turns from now, I think) If not, what is your gov switch preference?
No, I prefer the turn we get Theology still.

5) Shall we arrange the deal to get the Vox map NOW or after the war is over? Or both?
Both preferably - we can always use the "we want to see if we are within galley range of you to help and trade with us" excuse for the 2nd map if they conquer GS (plus they would get the Lighthouse wonder too)

quote:
Uh, admittedly it is from the previous 690bc turn, but it shows there 489 gold currently (should be 497 by the current turn) - minus 200 equals 289-297 gold NOT 400 gold left - more like 300 - not even enough to do the courthouse rush alone and not including the warrior upgrades.

For God's sake, play fair, Steve! Why do you present the data twisted in your favour?

You talk about me twisting data in my favour ? Oh boy, that is really funny - it is not as though you don't twist data to your favour is it? Though I will admit that I did forget about the 50 RP gold on turn 102 - assuming we still get it - so my omission was purely unintentional in this case.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe
3) What special requirements you'd condition the loan with?
Repayment conditions on that loan, their map and probably time to discuss the other loan (would be willing to wipe out part of that loan)

Be specific, please. What repayment conditions you would want us to ask for? "Their map" means their current world map, right? Specify your suggestions related to "the other loan", please. We need precise wording for the poll.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Sharpe


You talk about me twisting data in my favour ? Oh boy, that is really funny - it is not as though you don't twist data to your favour is it? Though I will admit that I did forget about the 50 RP gold on turn 102 - assuming we still get it - so my omission was purely unintentional in this case.

Be so kind and show me where I am twisting the data in my favour.

[Sharpe]

Well perhaps that was a tad too harsh - I just found it funny that you accused me of something I think you do every once in a while.

I don't see the point of mentioning specifics ... there would be no point except winning or losing an argument.

I think that it is time to stop these accusations and "quote wars" between us and put the matter to a vote when possible to let the team decide. We simply don't agree on this matter at all...

[lmtoops]

Both you guys are speculating on the future, so it's naturally to lean the numbers in your favor. So Sharpe takes the numbers as if they are frozen in time, which makes it look like much less.

Then Vondrack takes the number and speculate that we will get barbarian villages and the numbers come up fine. Whatever.....it's a side argument.

The questions:

1 and 2) The key is...if they ask. I think it would be a great compromise to settle for less than 200 g. Sharpe says 120 max (and he is not happy with that). Sounds like 120 g is a good compromis.

3) No special requirements. They need to repay; but that could take many forms.

4)Govt switch after Theology

5)Get map after the War. Other than curiosity, we don't need it now. If they throw it in...fine, but this is not important.

6) Oh...there is no 6. I was against it anyway

I'll close out by saying that whatever we loan out; we cannot count it as ours until it is repaid. When I loan money to friends, I don't plan on getting the money back. I expect it back, but you never know. If I must have the money back, then don't loan it out.

So I argree we don't need the money now. I also think that if we lose the 320 g loan (200 + 120), then we will be OK. It's a lot of gold, but can be made up. It is a worthy risk that may eliminate our nearest tech rival.

[ZargonX]

Ok, let me hit you guys with my loan proposal: What is the one thing we can all be sure of in this game? The answer: that things change. So, with that in mind, I propose that we split any loan into two sections.

1. When Vox asks us for a loan officially, we give them 100 gold on the spot, and at the same time they give us their current map.
2. Later (by about 10 turns, I'd imagine), a turn before we go into Republic, we check with Vox again. If the situation remains that they still need cash, we loan them another 50-100 gold. This second half will be dependant on what has happened in the meantime. If we feel Vox are going to be blown out of the water, we probably won't want to throw our money away. If we think they're going to clean up, maybe we'll throw them some extra to help speed it up. Basically, we re-evaluate the situation.
3. Immediately upon conclusion of the war, Vox gives us their map again. Then, they pay us a lump sum down payment on the loan, maybe 50 (or more, if they can spare it), followed up by per turn payments of 10 to 15. This too will be re-evaluated as the situation calls for.

So, that's it. Pretty simple, I think. We help Vox now, we weigh the benefits later, we assess our needs and their needs based on the current situation, not on any formulas or anything ahead of time.

Furthermore, my understanding is that Vox is researching Engineering. I, for one, would like to get my hands on that. They have said they still owe us for the whole c+c/RP thing, so I think getting Engineering from them would be payment enough, yeah? With that being the case, it's in our interest to make sure Vox stays around long enough to give it to us. I'd imagine, with the war and all, probably at least 20-25 turns, which is quite reasonable. So, in the best possible scenario, we spend 100-200 gold, get engineering for free, get a world map, and get our money back! You can't beat that. Even in a worse scenario, we'll still at least get the tech and the map, and probably some cash.

So, there you have it. What do you all think?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by lmtoops
4)Govt switch after Theology

Leo, just checking... speaking to ZargonX about an hour ago, we have found out that we meant the same, while he was favouring an "earlier switch", while I was for "finishing the poprushes first".

After Zargon re-read the analysis here, he realized we were actually in agreement. The difference between switching immediately after the discovery of Theology (Turn 103) and switching after the Logville Temple poprush (Turn 108) is 5 turns.

These 5 extra turns would allow us to 2-poprush Temples in Logville and Dye Fields (and most probably in Sharpehaven, too - depends on what the number of wasted shields will be for connected Sharpehaven producing 3 raw shields... if it is 2 wasted shields, then we'd be short of 1 shield - if it is just 1 wasted shield out of the 3 produced, we would be able to 2-pop rush a Temple there as well). Two 2-pop rushes are worth 2*2*20*4=320 gold. We would certainly not gain that much by switching to Republic those 5 turns sooner (and the pop loss is not worth mentioning as thanks to The Pyramids, we will have pop more than enough).

[Tiberius]

First, the answers:

Originally posted by vondrack
Thus, I would like everybody to answer the following questions here now:
1) Shall we provide Vox Controli with a war loan of 200 gold, if they ask for it?

Yes. I'd go even further and offer it.

2) If not, then what is the maximum amount you would agree to?

Irrelevant question for me.

3) What special requirements you'd condition the loan with?

their WM and 100 gold when the war is over, but not later than [TBA] turns

4) Do you support our government switch right after Logville poprushes its Temple? (in 13 turns from now, I think) If not, what is your gov switch preference?

Yes, absolutely. That will be the best use of our Pyramids, using pop-rushing.

5) Shall we arrange the deal to get the Vox map NOW or after the war is over? Or both?[/i]

After, hoping that they will provide us with one soon, just for fun


Now, my tiny little opinion:

I find this dispute, I apologize, but totally irrelevant. I'm not sure if that's the right word, so let me explain: we either agree that we help the Voxes win the war or we decide that we don't help them. What possibly difference can make 100 gold (since Sharpe already agreed on 100, while Radek asks for 200) for us in the next 15-20 turns? Sharpe, do you really think that if GoW + ND decide to attack us with their UUs 100 gold could help us better than 10 immortals landing near Imperial city?

So the real question is: do we consider that GS losing and Vox winning is important for us or not? If yes, then 100 gold shouldn't be a problem, really. We won't win this game with a 100 more gold in our account. It is a question of perspective: do we want to invest some money in a big business/deal, or save some cash instead, to be sure that we will be able to pay the next month bills? I personally think that playing this game "by the book" is a sure loser. A loser who will last longer than a bad investor, but still a loser.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Ok, let me hit you guys with my loan proposal: What is the one thing we can all be sure of in this game? The answer: that things change. So, with that in mind, I propose that we split any loan into two sections.

1. When Vox asks us for a loan officially, we give them 100 gold on the spot, and at the same time they give us their current map.
2. Later (by about 10 turns, I'd imagine), a turn before we go into Republic, we check with Vox again. If the situation remains that they still need cash, we loan them another 50-100 gold. This second half will be dependant on what has happened in the meantime. If we feel Vox are going to be blown out of the water, we probably won't want to throw our money away. If we think they're going to clean up, maybe we'll throw them some extra to help speed it up. Basically, we re-evaluate the situation.
3. Immediately upon conclusion of the war, Vox gives us their map again. Then, they pay us a lump sum down payment on the loan, maybe 50 (or more, if they can spare it), followed up by per turn payments of 10 to 15. This too will be re-evaluated as the situation calls for.

So, that's it. Pretty simple, I think. We help Vox now, we weigh the benefits later, we assess our needs and their needs based on the current situation, not on any formulas or anything ahead of time.

Furthermore, my understanding is that Vox is researching Engineering. I, for one, would like to get my hands on that. They have said they still owe us for the whole c+c/RP thing, so I think getting Engineering from them would be payment enough, yeah? With that being the case, it's in our interest to make sure Vox stays around long enough to give it to us. I'd imagine, with the war and all, probably at least 20-25 turns, which is quite reasonable. So, in the best possible scenario, we spend 100-200 gold, get engineering for free, get a world map, and get our money back! You can't beat that. Even in a worse scenario, we'll still at least get the tech and the map, and probably some cash.

So, there you have it. What do you all think?

Well, I do not think this is what I am trying to arrange. This deal doesn't guarantee that Voxes will get the second half of the gold if they need it (we may - for whatever reason - decide we do not want to give them the second half of gold and that would be it...). This makes it difficult for them to plan, as the gold from us would not be guaranteed. OTOH, the idea of getting Engineering basically "for free" or in exchange for waiving a moderate part of the repayment is fine with me - if we are generous enough to forget some of our needs in order to accomodate Vox on gold, they should be generous enough to not try squeezing anything out for us for Engineering which we might have been able to get for C+C, if they hadn't messed in (though we should keep in mind that our deal with RPers was FAR from even "likely").

I would be perfectly okay with arranging a "loan frame" for them, up to 200 gold. They would be allowed to ask whenever they'd be in need of gold, loaning up to 200 gold in total. Repayment scheduled to start once the war is over or once they decide to, to be completed in no less than 20 turns, but no later than 40 turns from using the frame up (to make them more likely to use the loan frame only if really needed and not just taking all at once "just for sure"). Instead of an interest, we'd ask for their world map once the war is over (hoping they'd throw their current map in as a free extra, but not really asking for it, as it is of little value to us ATM). I would first just politely indicate we would "appreciate a lot" getting Engineering in some way as part of the deal... I believe they would be happy to throw it in (as they are undoubtedly going to sell it to Bobians, making some money out of it, while spending very little on the research). If not, we can then push them a bit, making it a request. But let's start carefully... whatever either party does without being pushed into is fine. Whatever either party does after being pushed into results in worse relations. And fine relations with a good ally is what I consider most important now.

Conditioning part of the loan (even if just "for ourselves") upon how Voxes do in the war within the next 5-10 turns is tricky. I don't think we'll have info enough to be able to determine who's likely to win. Not as early as the gold would probably be needed.

I don't think it is a good idea at this moment to mix in the first loan re-negotiation - that loan was clearly defined as far as the repayment period was concerned and it was also clear what it was for: Monotheism... btw, I would like to remind everybody that it was thanks to this deal we got 80 extra gold from GS for C+C, effectively making our "immediate price" of Monotheism 50 gold plus 70 gold loan (and there's still a very good chance we shall get 150 more gold back later on, effectively getting back more than we paid) - if that was not a bargain... it is not correct to bring this deal up again now and point at it saying: "look, they have already got a loan of 200 gold from us." That deal was made under conditions fine for both sides and didn't imply either party would "owe" anything special to the other one - beyond the timely repayment of 150 gold.

Oh... and btw... Tibi seems to be able to formulate my thoughts and approach better than I am. It is the grand scheme of things we shall consider now. Thanks, Tibi, I am getting too involved in arguments and counterarguments, forgetting that they are more or less totally irrelevant.

As for the amount itself... 200 gold is an amount that BetaHound mentioned (dunno if it was in a chat with Nimitz or me) as sufficient to ensure Voxes would be able to upgrade all of their warriors they will be able to build during their GA (which is the period they seem to believe will be enough to break the GS neck - and it sounds quite right to me). It is at the same time an amount I see as big enough to be considered a "major support"... appropriate to how Voxes approach and treat us now (did they need to tell us what the plans of the GoW+ND+Vox coalition were? did they have any need to offer us their world map for free? nope, all they needed to get the money was to trade Monotheism and now maybe the map & Engineering to us... and they would not have to pay anything back, at least for the second part, as we'd be happy to buy the map and Engineering for 200 gold).