Master Builder Thread

[Tiberius]

Apropos iron hills: can you tell us Radek how many irons do we have? I can't check the save right now and from the shot it seems to me that we have 3 irons (one being near Panama) plus one on Legos Minor. Is that correct?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Apropos iron hills: can you tell us Radek how many irons do we have? I can't check the save right now and from the shot it seems to me that we have 3 irons (one being near Panama) plus one on Legos Minor. Is that correct?

Correct.

Iron #1: E-SE of Panama
Iron #2: N-NE of the Karina site
Iron #3: E of the Tipperary site
Iron #4: Legos Minor

I guess we can't complain...

[Tiberius]

Do we have to adjust the O2E to work the iron near Panama, or are we lucky and the plan did include that hill from the beginning?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Do we have to adjust the O2E to work the iron near Panama, or are we lucky and the plan did include that hill from the beginning?

The iron shall help us with the Panama production quite a bit (it was not included in the original plan), however, I consider it now quite likely that we may decide to reconsider the whole O2E plan in the near future.

The main reason is that if we are able to make several contacts soon (and that we are, we know for sure now - what GoW sees from their territory is the Mystery Isle), it's quite possible that we will be able to catch up tech-wise for cheap. After all, all those civs have some techs they can sell to us and they may decide it'll better for them to get 10 gold themselves than let someone else get 20 gold... Also, if we make contact with Luxes soon, we may get many techs in exchange for helping them find their refuge on Legos Minor...

We can even use our wonder build in Jackson as a "pressure" tool... if everyone sees we may get all those techs anyway, the price may very well drop down... any should we catch up tech-wise, we may decide to scrap GLib in favour of Pyramids, assigning Panama either to an early medieval wonder (Sistine will be crucial to us, because of the lack of luxuries) or use it for something else.

Do not get me wrong, please, I am not giving up on GLib/O2E yet. Just that it is now obvious we will not be able to hide long enough (Trip told me GoW is putting together an "evacuation team" to be used in case ND conquers them on Bob - so they WILL explore the seas towards us and we WOULD get discovered anyway). I believe it will now be better to take the initiative, cross the water and start making contacts ourselves, limiting the manoeuvring space of other teams. If they know our galley is sailing around Bob, likely to make contacts soon, they will be much easier to deal with, I believe, since there will be many potential sellers and just one buyer.

And if we can catch up for cheap, we may very well use all those 400 shields on something that will last much longer (Sistine).

So, I suggest we blow up our cover now and try making the GLib an option rather then an urgent need. After all, I do not think we have that much of a choice now....

[lmtoops]

You are a wise leader Vondrack. I know you spent many an hour working on O2E; creating, testing, argueing, and whatever else. Many people would stick to "their" plan until the very end. It is good of you to question your own work and see if it is the best option under the "current" situations.

In many ways, O2E will be in effect no matter when we make contact. The change is in the Wonder priority. Fortunately, we can switch between wonders as often as we like. So the plan has the needed flexibility. If we can get the techs cheap, than other Wonders become more important.

[Kloreep]

Question: How much could we slow Panama down if we scrapped the GLib? I'm wondering if it's even possible to preserve the shields long enough for a medieval wonder.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
Question: How much could we slow Panama down if we scrapped the GLib? I'm wondering if it's even possible to preserve the shields long enough for a medieval wonder.

We will be able to slow Panama down almost at will, certainly to the degree that we could use it for a medieval wonder build (to be honest, I sort of expect we will do that in the end). If things go as I expect, I believe we should build one more galley in Panama - while Galleyleo Galleylei would explore along a coast of Bob, the other galley would be taking care of naval transport between Legos Major, Legos Minor, and Mystery Island.

Thanks to the iron hill in the Panama radius, even with an extra galley inserted into the build queue, we would still be able to finish a wonder ahead of the original O2E schedule.

[ZargonX]

Ok, quick rundown of the next round of settlers:

-Regardless of which settler we use, it will take 13 turns to settle Zargonia Bay. I suggest using the Legopolis settler, ready in 3, which can move there in 10.
-The next Farmerville settler will be ready in 8. As we can now see the RPer's coastline from SE Legos, I think it imperitive that we get a coastal city down there immediately to discourage them (or anyone else for that matter) from trying to send a quick settlement team to our empty lands. I would suggest the Crossing site or whatever the name of the city at the river outlet down SE is next. With our worker pair roading, it will save a vast amount of time in getting down there via Karina.

[ZargonX]

Ok, new thought: I suggest using G.G. to pick up the Legopolis settler from around Jackson, then carry it down south to the Logville site. That will have Logville settled in 12 turns, if my count is right. Granted, this will only save about 2 turns off the land route, but every turn counts, right? As I've said before, I think Logville is important to have up as a southen claim on the land, just in case our good "friends" the RPers decide they want to do some over-seas expansion...

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
Ok, new thought: I suggest using G.G. to pick up the Legopolis settler from around Jackson, then carry it down south to the Logville site. That will have Logville settled in 12 turns, if my count is right. Granted, this will only save about 2 turns off the land route, but every turn counts, right? As I've said before, I think Logville is important to have up as a southen claim on the land, just in case our good "friends" the RPers decide they want to do some over-seas expansion...

Not a bad idea at all! I would like to settle Logville before Crossing, too, since the location is vastly superior. Crossing is basically just a "filler" city, while Logville is a future powerhouse.

The only problem with this plan is that we would have G.G. tied for 20+ turns... unable to transport Angus back to Panama for upgrade. Considering the road that makes it almost as fast to go by foot, I would probably send the Settler there by foot, leaving G.G. in the Northern seas... but it's just a mild preference...

I do agree that Logville should be the next city founded (after Zargonia Bay, that is).

[Kloreep]

Okay, I just started on an updated Legoland sim. I still want to put Bob in it and do some other stuff, but it's almost finished.

In the meantime, I ran a sim to see what kind of corruption Karina faces in four different scenarios - a combination of Despotism or Republic, and connected to Legopolis or not.

KARINA - DESPOTISM UNROADED This data and the three following sets are shields gathered (before corruption) to shields produced (after corruption)
1:1
2:1
3:1
4:1
5:1
6:1
7:1
8:1
9:1
10:1
11:1
12:1
13:1
14:1
15:1
16:1
17:1
18:1
19:1
20:1
21:2
22:2
23:2
24:2
25:2
26:2

KARINA - DESPOTISM ROADED
1:1
2:1
3:1
4:1
5:1
6:1
7:1
8:1
9:2
10:2
11:2
12:2
13:2
14:3
15:3
16:3
17:3
18:3
19:3
20:4
21:4
22:4
23:4
24:4
25:5
26:5

KARINA - REPUBLIC UNROADED
1:1
2:1
3:1
4:1
5:2
6:2
7:2
8:2
9:3
10:3
11:3
12:4
13:4
14:4
15:5
16:5
17:5
18:5
19:6
20:6
21:6
22:7
23:7
24:7
25:8
26:8
27:8
28:9
29:9
30:9

KARINA - REPUBLIC ROADED
1:1
2:1
3:1
4:2
5:2
6:2
7:3
8:3
9:4
10:4
11:4
12:5
13:5
14:6
15:6
16:6
17:7
18:7
19:8
20:8
21:8
22:9
23:9
24:10
25:10
26:10
27:11
28:11
29:12
30:12

Uncorrupted Shields:FP Completion times (assuming steady amount of shield production)
1:200
2:100
3:67
4:50
5:40
6:34
7:29
8:25
9:23
10:20
11:19
12:17

As you can see (or guess if you just skimmed; I hope that's what you did, it's a long post ), the city of Karina faces an uphill battle to get enough production for a decent FP completion time. It's definitely not going to do anything under Despotism, and even under Republic, a road connection is desperately needed.

And even then, we face up to 50 turns completion time. Not a great situation, but it's what we have to work with, and we still just might be the first to complete the FP.

And, looking at the map of Bob, I'd hazard a guess that we'll have one of the best FP cores, even if it takes a while to get up and running.

So, conclusion: Switch to Republic ASAP. Get Karina connected to Legopolis before or soon after the switch.

I still need to work on getting some basic queues for workers and cities ready for discussion & finalization; that'll take a while longer. Please be patient; I will hold myself to my campaign speech.

[Kloreep]

Time for another long post.

First off, we need to decide where our next few settlers will go. Here's the current schedule if Legopolis continues the Merc-Settler cycle and Farmerville builds Settlers nonstop. I also assume we'll build a settler in Jackson after the Pyramids as Sharpe suggested to me:

Legopolis Settler in 3
Farmerville Settler in 9
Legopolis Settler in 11
Jackson Settler in 18
Legopolis Settler in 19
Farmerville Settler in 19 or 20 turns

My recommendation would be to send Legopolis 3 to Dye Fields as others have suggested; Farmerville 9 and Legopolis 11 to Tiberium and Sharpehaven (order depends on Barbs and available escorts); Jacson 18 to Tarzania and Farmerville 19/20 to Crossing (bad city site, but it needs to be claimed before other teams consider a Legos landing seriously... which they will, if they build up a fleet to attack Vox.

Notice I have not included Legoposil 19. That's because I think Legopolis should focus on Infrastructure (a market and temple for preparation for Republic would be nice).

Also, I'd like to move Tarzania one tile NE. This will cut down on the amount of grassland it gets but make it a port city; and there aren't too many hills in its radius, so the reduced possibility of irrigation shouldn't be a problem.

Now, here follows my general philosophy for our current cities, Zargonia and Logville, and the cities I recommend building with the settlers upcoming...

Legopolis: Continues the NM-Settler cycle a while longer, than gears down as the Pyramids complete. Builds infrastructure (Temple, Library, Market) exclusively for a little while; since it's the only uncorrupted city, and it has river tiles to work, it should focus on enhancing output rather than units.

Panama: Also on a river, this city also deserves infrastructure. But it already has barracks, so military builds should be balanced with basic buildings; preferably weighted in favor of units. Barracks cost 40 shields to establish in another city, after all!

Jackson: Will finish Pyramids soon. After building a settler (or at least a worker), it should build a Barracks and serve as a military building; the combination of rich hill mines and low, river-less commerce makes it ideal for units. The only building besides Barracks I'd build here is a Temple.

Dye Fields: High commerce, low corruption (after republic), low shields. Should focus on workers to clear its jungle at first while it's suffering from despotism, but once a decent area is cleared and mined, it should focus on getting a market, library, and temple up in some order so its commerce is put to good use.

Red Bricks: Decent commerce, and low corruption under Republic. With Pyramids and some more cleared land, should do well as an infrastructure city.

Sharpehaven: Should get a temple ASAP to get to the wheat. Maybe a worker or two first. Post-republic, it will have decent corruption and should probably be a Barracks-Temple city devoted to units. High food production means more frequent settlers.

Forkmouth: Decent site, but corruption under Republic is still pretty bad - 40%! Barracks (and Temple) units-building city.

Farmerville: Corruption under Republic will be 33%, but it is on a river. Should probably alternate buildings and pop-point units (settlers and workers).

Tarzania: Bad location, but it can be made okay with some jungle clearing. Corruption under Republic is about 35%. Either a Barracks or Harbor unit-building city.

Zargonia Bay: Cattle are always good, but corruption is terrible - 45% under Republic (and that's, as always, connected; it'll be worse without a road to Legopolis). Unit-building city.

Crossing: Even w/ Republic, corruption goes over 50%. Barracks or Harbor town (I wouldn't bother to call this one a city )

Logville: Unit-building city due to terrible corruption. Can use infrastructure post-FP.

Karina: Needs the FP like a fish needs water, and should start as soon as we're in Republic and a road is built to Legopolis. Once corruption is eliminated, this will be a very nice city; it'll just need the basics and an Aqueduct.

Tiberium: Harbor town (naval unit builder). Can use infrastructure post-FP.

We have more planned cities, of course, but those probably won't be build over the next twenty turns or so. And I think you can guess what I'd say about them, since the only ones left are either Arid central cities or corrupted northern & central fillers.

Whew! That's it for now. So... discuss.

[Sharpe]

Nice analysis, Kloreep!

Looks like the southern cities will heavily depend on the FP being built - but that wasn't unexpected.

What about Suez (also known as Benelux)?

Also what about Legos Minor? There are 3 very good city sites and I am guessing that the most northern one would probably be around the same corruption levels as Tiberium.

However, we wouldn't have the road connection which would make corruption even worse and no gain from the FP. Also we will likely have a large barb problem there so we will need a strong military to land there and clean the barbs up - and we should try to get there before anyone else does (though they would have obscene amounts of corruption compared to us).

As I mentioned in a chat with Kloreep, I also have concerns about the southern irrigation situation especially for the Quanto Mechanico site and the western side of the south in general. We may need to reposition some of the western cities to get irrigation to them and not have to wait until Electricity.

Actually RedBricks will also have very good commerce due to its location between the rivers (will get 3 commerce per turn during Republic).

Not sure about Crossing, we can always position military units there if the site is so bad to prevent a landing there. Goodness knows there are better sites...

Agreed on the infrastructure idea for Legopolis and Panama - for now they are our main commerce centers. Jackson is admittedly poorer in commerce and so might be a better unit city. We will need a REXing city to replace Legopolis - Sharpehaven might be a decent candidate once its wheat is available, Forkmouth can be one until then especially once its game's forest is cleared.

Since we will reach Pyramids in about 15 turns, we will likely go Republic soon after (if not immediately after) so the settlers after the 15th turn will likely be delayed by 3 to 8 turns (hopefully not 8!)

[Kloreep]

Some units at Crossing will probably do just as well. Benelux might be a better filler city to do. Or we could settle somewhere else in the south, like Abilene.

Re: Irrigation, I agree we need some different southern placements. We should probably fit in at least one more city in order to get Irrigation across the hills. I need to look at this some more.

I was excluding Legos Minor from the list because of the Barb outbreak. We'll have no choice but to deal with it in the south, but the north could stay contaminated for a while. I'm not sure if we want to try sending settlers into that area immediately (except for Benelux, which could be protected by the Merc we're sending to the isthmus). Every single settler would need an escort, and we're currently NM poor - heck, militarily poor in general. I expect we'll stay that way for a while, but I hope the emphasis I'm placing on Barracks and units (IE using that plan for all but the best and most uncorrupted cities) will fill the gap eventually.

On the Republic jump: I'm not sure if we should do it that soon. We'll be stuck in anarchy for several turns at best, up to 8 at worst (IIRC). And once we're out, we'll need some Temples in the largest riverside cities (dyes should take care of the smaller ones). Also, we need markets to maintain our units.

I need to create some long-range queues first, but I think we may want to delay Republic a little bit. *Shields self from incoming pulpy projectiles*

[redstar1]

How much of a delay?