Master Builder Thread

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Jackson should build a worker again after the current merc. They are closing to the point when losing food again.

That's the plan, I believe (at least Kloreep's timeline shows Worker after the current Merc).

Originally posted by Tiberius
Btw, I've just noticed that Tarzania has 3 non-improvable sea tiles. Now it's a little late to complain, but I think that founding it one tile E or N-E from where it is now would have been better.

This was actually intentional - if we built Tarzania on the coast, we would have gained "improvable" sea tiles, but would lose even "better improvable" jungle-later-to-be-grassland tiles.

Keep in mind that sea cannot be used for production, at least not in the "reasonably foreseeable" future. Coast/sea is 2 food, 2/1 commerce max (with the 80-shield harbour... I'm ignoring the 160-shield commercial docks, which add 1 commerce) - compared to jungle/grass, it's either 1-2 food or 1-3 shields less, while the only "plus" is maybe 1 more commerce... not worth it, IMHO.

a) built where it was built
3 coastal (incl. the fish)
5 hills (1 shared with Zargonia)
12 jungle/grass (1 shared with Zargonia, 1 shared with Farmerville - both bonus ones)

b) one tile E
6 coastal (incl. the fish)
3 sea
4 hills (1 shared with Zargonia)
7 jungle/grass (2 shared with Zargonia, 1 bonus & 1 cattle)
trading 5 jungle/grass and 1 hill for 3 coastal & 3 sea

c) one tile NE
6 coastal (incl. the fish)
1 sea
3 hills
10 jungle/grass (1 bonus shared with Zargonia, 1 shared with Dye Fields)
trading 2 jungle/grass and 2 hills for 3 coastal & 1 sea

d) one tile SE
5 coastal (incl. the fish)
3 hills (1 shared with Zargonia)
12 jungle/grass (4 shared with Zargonia, incl. 1 bonus & 1 cattle)
trading 2 non-overlapping jungle/grass and 2 hills for 2 coastal

e) one tile N
5 coastal (incl. the fish, 1 shared with Dye Fields)
4 hills
11 jungle/grass (3 shared with Dye Fields)
trading 1 non-overlapping jungle/grass and 1 hill for 2 coastal, 1 of them overlapping

It's shields that win games, not commerce. IMHO, only the very last alternative (one tile north) would be also ok - though we would be having a difficult start, with no "good" tile to work (this way, we have two bonus grasses to work).

[Tiberius]

When are we planning to move to Republic? ~ 10 turns, I suppose?

Which is the last temple we are going to wait for? Red Bricks?

[vondrack]

Earlier, Turn 107, 5 turns from now. We will be able to rush temples in Farmerville (2-pop, turn 103), Karina (1-pop, turn 105), Logville (2-pop, turn 107), Sharpehaven (2-pop, turn 107), Dye Fields (2-pop, turn 107), and Red Bricks (1-pop, turn 106). Jackson will build one without rushing.

Summary:

Turn 103: Farmerville
Turn 105: Karina
Turn 106: Red Bricks
Turn 107: Logville, Sharpehaven, Dye Fields

[Tiberius]

Ah, I thought Red Bricks is going to finish it the hard way (based on the Building timeline table), and that we are going to change to Rep after that.

The Legopolis market will be ready on turn 108, so maybe we should make the change then, instead of 107.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Ah, I thought Red Bricks is going to finish it the hard way (based on the Building timeline table), and that we are going to change to Rep after that.

Well, that's probably something to discuss. I lean towards using as much pop for production as possible, since pop is cheap for us... but the Red Bricks temple would not change the schedule, as it is not the last one to be built.

Originally posted by Tiberius
The Legopolis market will be ready on turn 108, so maybe we should make the change then, instead of 107.

I may be missing something fundamental (getting a bit nuts from all this DG-civvin' ), but I believe there is no urgent need to finish the Marketplace prior to switching govs. During anarchy, marketplaces do not generate any income, nor cost upkeep... finishing the Marketplace before anarchy thanks to delaying that anarchy by 1 turn is almost exactly the same as finishing the Marketplace on the first turn AFTER the gov switch, switching the gov a turn earlier...

Actually switching sooner is more efficient, as that 1 turn of difference would be spent under Republic with (slightly) more pop.

I would prefer switching as soon as we finish the last rush.

[ZargonX]

I would also be in favor of the switch taking place as soon as the final rush is completed. As Vondrack said, there is no need to have the market in place before the switch, whereas there is an ever-so-slight benefit to having it finished after.

[Kloreep]

Yes, I'd like to switch on 107. We could go to 108 and poprush Forkmouth's barracks, but I think it would be better to switch on 107; Dye Fields, Logville, and Sharpehaven all make their rushes on that turn, so it's the major hurdle to making our longer time in Despotism worthwhile.

[Tiberius]

Ah, OK, 107 then.

I didn't realize (I forgot) that the market isn't producing anything during those turns.

[vondrack]

I have been thinking about the Red Bricks temple build... swaying back and forth between rushing and building it the hard way... Here is what I consider two viable options:

hard way

T103: pop 4, 4F, 19S; reassign labourer from mined grass to forest -> 6spt
T104: pop 4, 5F, 25S
T105: pop 4, 6F, 31S
T106: pop 4, 7F, 37S
T107: pop 4, 8F, 43S; revolution -> anarchy, reassign labourer from forest to grass to grow
T108...: pop5, 0F, 43S; anarchy

We would then manage the growth so that Red Bricks grows to pop 6 exactly at the moment Temple gets finished (we will need 3 turns in Republic to finish it). Once at pop 6, we build a worker that starts improving more tiles, and continue with another build.

1-pop rush

T103: pop 4, 4F, 19S; labourers on grasses, 5 spt
T104: pop 4, 6F, 24S
T105: pop 4, 8F, 29S
T106: pop 5, 0F, 34S, new labourer to start working forest or gold mountain -> 6spt
T107: pop 5, 0-1F, 40S, 1-pop rush -> pop 4; revolution -> anarchy, reassign labourer from forest to grass to grow
T108: pop 4, 2-3F, 0S; anarchy

We would then manage the growth so that Red Bricks grows reasonably (hopefully back to pop 5 shortly after the end of anarchy), first spitting out a worker that would be improving more tiles (we currently do not have enough of them to properly utilize pop 5). If things go fine, we should be growing to pop 6 around the time those 20 turns of poprush induced unhappiness would be wearing off.

What do you prefer? I would go with the second option... three turns of production under republic will be worth those 20 pop-shields... but I may be missing something important...

[Kloreep]

Production will benefit from the poprush, yes; the reason I didn't think it should be used is commerce. However, this definitely bears thinking about again...

Since it's on a river, each pop point is worth 2 commerce a turn; more like 2.7, with the Library and the high science slider. Once in Republic, each pop point there will be worth more - 3-4 commerce each (road + river + Rep bonus=3, plus any commerce applied to science will get a +50% bonus); so, assuming all 20 of those turns will be spent with one pop unit less than with a rush (which is admittedly unlikely), I think we'd lose 40-75 commerce (a few of those "wasted pop" turns will be spent under anarchy, when the reduced commerce gathering won't matter anyway). 40 commerce (in gold form) = 10 shields; 60 commerce = 15 shields; 75 commerce = ~19 shields.

So, I'd guess gain will probably outweigh the loss by about 5 shields, or 20 commerce. The other loss, however, is the straight inability to be happy over pop 5 for those 20 turns. Still, considering it only has 4 completely improved tiles to work anyway, that may not be such a loss; and as you point out, the unpoprushed version might have to be stunted, whereas the poprushed version will get close to pop 5 while in anarchy and can produce a worker quickly. So... let's rush it. We're growing short of workers, and the sooner we can produce more under Republic, the better.

[Kloreep]

I think we should change Legopolis' build to a Cathedral. It'll take 6 turns once we're out of anarchy; we can then build the market if needed. This is because I want Legopolis to operate at maximum pop under Republic, and with a Cathedral, it'll be able to operate at pop 9. This is pretty much perfect if we mine its hills and irrigate the cattle; the 3 surplus food from the cattle + the two food from the city's base tile will support the five hills, and the three other citizens can work mined grasses.

Also, at pop 7, Legopolis will already have to use a specialist to maintain order once in Republic; and, if we irrigate the cattle as I want to, we can get to pop 8 fairly soon (at least, fairly soon in city growth terms). If we then integrate a worker from Farmerville to bring it to pop 9 (growth will take 20 turns at pop 8 if we work hills), and we have a Cathedral ready to make everyone happy, Legopolis will be a great city, ready to build Sistines and/or Bach's quickly. We can still build the market first after the Cathedral.

[ZargonX]

I whole-heartedly agree with this plan. This will really give Legopolis an incredible build potential on top of our already strong industrial base.

[Tiberius]

The only problem is that Republic without markets is really painful. Admitedly I don't know exactly how many golds we would lose without this Legopolis market, but the more markets we have the better. To solve the unhappiness/entertainer problem, we could build a worker or settler after the market and only after that the cathedral.

[Sharpe]

I agree with Tiberius. A marketplace in Legopolis should be built first then a cathedral. We are going to need the money desperately.

[Kloreep]

Under Republic, Legopolis will be effectively operating at 6 pop, and so it'll pull in 23 commerce per turn; 3 commerce per worked tile (gotta love rivers ) plus 5 from the city tile (one for being a city tile, one for being on a river, two for being a metropolis, one more for being under republic). Assuming 50% tax (though it could be as low as 40%), that's ~11 commerce, or ~5 per turn from the market. Since the market costs 1 gold each turn to operate, it's technically 4 per turn from the market. So, with 6 turns to complete the cathedral and around 7 more to build the market, that's 52 gold. (Assuming we run at 50% tax and assuming the market would complete as soon as we hit Republic.) However, we'd be able to get more raw commerce by building the cathedral first, since the specialist would only be needed for the 6 turns required to complete the Cathedral, whereas with a market first, the specialist would be required longer and growth would be held up. 7 extra turns without a specialist should be worth at least 14, probably 21 raw commerce, bringing the cost to either 38 or 31. The extra specialist would at the very least be able to work a hill, bringing in at least 7 more food, 14 if a grass is worked. I don't think the shields would matter, but I need to do a simulation.