Master Builder Thread

[vondrack]

I will comment in detail later today. Some good ideas, but I will add a couple more.

[Tiberius]

I think the most important is to keep in mind our goals for the near future: secure as much teritorry as we can on Legos, while trying to be in the lead in areas such as commerce, tech and production. Therefor we will need not only land-grabbing cities, but also productive cities.

With Karina, Zargonia Bay and Logville founded, I think we will have covered enough from the southern area for now. I'd build at first workers in all of them, after which temples. With extending cultural borders we will secure even more teritorry. We can use pop-rushing, of course, before switching to Republic. We need more troops in the area, to defend against barbarians and possible landings.

Landings can occur not only in the south, but in other locations, too. In this aspect the most exposed places are our north, east and south-east.

Trying to balance all these things I'd propose the following order for our new cities:

Legopolis 1 : Dye Fields (to secure the dyes)
Farmerville 1: Tarzania (secure the eastern coast)
Legopolis 2: Port Hammer (secure the northern coast)
Farmerville 2: Sharpeheaven - a decent productive city
The next Farmerville and other setllers (Forkmouth, maybe, could of course continue our colonization in the south as well in the west.

After the second settler, I'd build marketplaces in Legopolis, and if time permits it, a temple, before swithing to Rep. We are in desperate need for marketplaces, so maybe after one more unit Panama should build Market, while Jackson barracks and later units and a harbour (for sea based trades).

Other city queues later.

[Kloreep]

DP

[Kloreep]

In the below, I'm using the tile numbering system E_T made for the SPDG:


I think Legopolis could complete both a market & Temple in 29 turns, assuming we only build two more settlers and 1 more merc. Here's my turn-by-turn analysis if someone wants to double-check my calculations.

+2/1025 BC - Worker completes road on 5
+3/1000 BC - Settler built; pop at 3. WF to 4-6-8, next build Merc
+4/975 BC - Pop growth to 4. WF to 4-6-8-12
+5/950 BC - Worker completes mine on 5. WF to 4-5-6-8
+6/925 BC -
+7/900 BC - Merc built; next build Settler.
+8/875 BC - Pop growth to 5; WF to 4-5-6-8-12
+9/850 BC -
+10/825 BC -
+11/800 BC - Settler built. Pop to 3; WF to 4-6-8.
+12/775 BC - Pop growth to 4; WF to 4-6-8-19. 7 shields.
+13/750 BC - 14 shields.
+14/725 BC - WF to 4-6-8-19. 22 shields.
+15/700 BC - 30 shields.
+16/625 BC - Pop growth to 5; WF to 4-5-6-8-12. 38 shields
+17/600 BC - 46 shields
+18/575 BC - 54 shields
+19/550 BC - 62 shields; temple completed if that's the first build.
+20/525 BC - Pop growth to 6; WF to 4-5-6-8-12-19. 71 shields market/9 temple
+21 - 80 shields/18
+22 - 90 shields (mine on 19 completes)/28
+23 - 100 shields - Market complete! Temple next./38
+24 - 10 shields./48
+25 - Legopolis Grows to 7. Hill worked. 21 shields./59
+26 - 32/70
+27 - 43/80
+28 - 54/90
+29 - Complete both Temple and Marketplace.

This is probably too long to stay in Despotism, however. So, Legopolis could build a Temple in 19 turns, we switch to Republic, and then the market is built.

Alternatively, we might skip the next Merc & settler pair and try to build both sooner. That would mean a city would have to be delayed, though.

[Kloreep]

Okay, here are some short-term queues for the cities. Discuss!

Legopolis: Settler-Temple-Marketplace-Settler-Library
This may be the most controversial queue. This skips the Merc and Settler originally planned after the current settler. However, I feel this is necessary to make the move to Republic a smooth one for Legopolis (Temple will be done by 800 BC, and the Market should be well on the way to completion when we switch). This will make our expansion slower, but consider three things: both Jackson and Panama (below) will need to build settlers to drain off excess pop. That will provide us with some settlers in the meantime. Second, what do we really need more than two settlers (for Sharpehaven and Dye Fields) for? Until we get the FP, the southern cities are little more than worker camps; and the northern cities will be that way regardless for a long time. (Tiberius, I know you wanted to settle Port Hammer, but I don't see why we should jump on it; the other civs have little reason to settle such a corrupt city, and know it would send relations downhill, so I don't think it's in danger of being taken.) Third, Legopolis will be at size 7 by the time the market completes, so it can produce a settler - or maybe even two; it all depends on when the Republic switch is - before moving on to a Library which will complete its infrastructure.
PS - Something that occured to me as I was about to hit "send" is that we could have Legopolis build a Library before a Market. This may mean a higher tax slider during the beginnings of our new government, but considering all the other cities are building Libraries first AND we'd get some culture out of it, this may be the ideal short-term build.

Jackson: The Pyramids-Settler-Barracks
Make sure all that food isn't wasted not growing a riverless size-6 city, then work on Barracks (as a riverless low-commerce city, it should be a city to emphasize units).

Panama: Horseman-Merc-Settler-(Horse or Merc)
A third unit as requested by Sharpe, then a settler to bring the pop back down, then on to another unit. Then maybe some infrastructure.

Farmerville: Settler-SettlerTemple
Produce another settler after the next, but then get a Temple to prepare for Republic and to let it grow a little larger (and thus produce settlers even faster ).

Red Bricks: Library-Market-Temple
Infrastructure for a lovely commerce city. Market and Temple may have to be switched around; we'll see what the situation is when the Library is completed.

Forkmouth: Worker-Barracks
Finish the current worker, then gear up to produce units. (For now, I don't see much other use in this corrupt city. It should be a nice city once under Republic and with a courthouse, though.)

Karina: Worker-Worker-Temple-FP
A small worker force to begin improving this city, then a temple (to be rushed once we're ready to work on the FP).

Zargonia: Worker-Worker-Temple
More workers and a Temple, to be rushed when we can afford it.

Logville: Worker-Worker-Temple
Ditto. Note that some of these four workers can be allocated to rush in tile improvements around Karina.

Dye Fields (to be settled by next Legopolis settler): Worker-Worker-Library
Get its own badly-needed worker force to work on the jungle. Then work on infrastructure.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Kloreep
Legopolis: Settler-Temple-Marketplace-Settler-Library

I agree. Though between the temple and the market I'd build a worker, to start preparing Legopolis for a larger population, and that means: irrigate the cattle, road/mine 2 or 3 hills then irrigate some grasslands.

Jackson: The Pyramids-Settler-Barracks

I agree. Then some units and later a harbor. Somewhere in between a temple (after the settler?).

Panama: Horseman-Merc-Settler-(Horse or Merc)

Why should we drain down the pop of Panama? It is growing rather slowly. We can build a temple to keep them happy, and with the dyes connected we shouldn't have problems. If we start a wonder prebuild after the temple, then yes, a settler to avoid growing it too big, especially that with the Pyramids it will grow faster.
Yes, I think this would be the best solution: Horseman, Merc (for them), temple, settler, palace/wonder. (We could build Port Hammer with the settler )

Farmerville: Settler-Settler-Temple

Agreed, but I don't think we have hat much time until the gov. switch. Maybe settler-temple-settler. If possible, rush the temple.

Red Bricks: Library-Market-Temple

If we have enough time to pop-rush the market then yes. Otherwise library-temple-market (pop-rushing the temple). The second variant has the advantage that the temple will make the unhappy-because-of-the-rush citizen content.

Forkmouth: Worker-Barracks

Or worker-temple-barracks-unit-unit-courthouse. This corrupted city would be more productive if we let it grow (hence the temple). We could also build a settler sometimes after the temple or the barracks.

Karina: Worker-Worker-Temple-FP
Zargonia: Worker-Worker-Temple
Logville: Worker-Worker-Temple

Agreed. Another possibility is worker-temple-worker. (to let the borders expend earlier)

Dye Fields (to be settled by next Legopolis settler): Worker-Worker-Library

Agreed.

[Kloreep]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Legopolis
I agree. Though between the temple and the market I'd build a worker, to start preparing Legopolis for a larger population, and that means: irrigate the cattle, road/mine 2 or 3 hills then irrigate some grasslands.

Well, I forgot to mention that Robbie would need to mine the tile he just roaded, so Legopolis may take a little longer than expected.

I guess the worker could be slipped in after the Temple and before the other building. (I now think Legopolis should go for a Library first, as that's what the rest of the nation is building, and we have been a fairly big researcher and will hopefully continue to be; so, we can just keep the tax slider fairly high till we get some markets. Thoughts on this? We need to decide whether to switch Legopolis to buildings within the next few days. That Merc will be complete soon.)

Also, remember that once in Republic, Legopolis will only be able to operate at size 6, and that's after the Temple. It'll need a Colosseum or Cathedral to grow further without unhappiness. So it still won't be able to grow too much. But I agree we should irrigate the cattle; those hills will be rich with shields post-republic and mined.

Jackson
I agree. Then some units and later a harbor. Somewhere in between a temple (after the settler?).

Let's see... that would take 7 turns all told. We'd hopefully be in or near Anarchy by then, and then we'd have to build the Barracks, and only then would the units start being produced...

Still, it would be good to be able to operate Jackson at pop 6 post-Rep. Tough choice... how badly will we need more units over the next 30-40 turns or so?

Panama
Why should we drain down the pop of Panama? It is growing rather slowly. We can build a temple to keep them happy, and with the dyes connected we shouldn't have problems. If we start a wonder prebuild after the temple, then yes, a settler to avoid growing it too big, especially that with the Pyramids it will grow faster.
Yes, I think this would be the best solution: Horseman, Merc (for them), temple, settler, palace/wonder. (We could build Port Hammer with the settler )

Well, keep in mind that Panama will be at 6 pop, and have 6 food stored by the time the settler is built. It will then take only 5 turns to get back to pop 5, and pop 6 will take another 5 turns.

A Temple would work too though... we'd have a delay in both the Settler and more units, but I think it would work. So I agree with your queue (except for the wonder part; Panama needs to both beef up on infrastructure and build more units for Lego.

Farmerville
Agreed, but I don't think we have hat much time until the gov. switch. Maybe settler-temple-settler. If possible, rush the temple.

The reason I have two settlers before the temple is that Farmerville won't need a Temple immediately if it keeps building settlers; the pop rush unhappiness is gone, and the de-pop from settlers should keep it below size 5, which is where a Temple starts becoming a good idea (and required a size 6). I'd do two settlers.

Red Bricks
If we have enough time to pop-rush the market then yes. Otherwise library-temple-market (pop-rushing the temple). The second variant has the advantage that the temple will make the unhappy-because-of-the-rush citizen content.

We definitely won't have time to pop-rush any second items. It would be possible to pop-rush the Library (or change to a Temple and poprush that even earlier, in about 8 or 9 turns). Personally, I'd poprush the Library (in about 15 turns); the luxury will be on-line then to keep 'em happy post-Rep, and that'll downsize the city from 3 to 2 rather than 2 to 1. After that, a Temple and then a Market as you say. (When I suggested the Market first, I forgot how fast the Pyramids will make the city grow, and the Temple will be needed around the time it's completed.)

Forkmouth
Or worker-temple-barracks-unit-unit-courthouse. This corrupted city would be more productive if we let it grow (hence the temple). We could also build a settler sometimes after the temple or the barracks.

Forkmouth has over 50% corruption, and will still have 40% corruption under Republic; as such, I consider it little more than a farm for units and workers right now. Let's get some badly-needed units from it before investing in a courthouse and temple to make it a good size 6 city.

Karina, Zargonia, Logville
Agreed. Another possibility is worker-temple-worker. (to let the borders expend earlier)

Considering Zargonia and Logville's proximity to the RP crossing, that would help us keep a naval eye on things. But I'd prefer to build two workers first in Karina; the sooner they're built, the sooner they can start improving terrain there.

Edit: On second thought, maybe only do this in one city; I don't know how quickly we'll have funds to rush BOTH of them.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Kloreep

I guess the worker could be slipped in after the Temple and before the other building. (I now think Legopolis should go for a Library first, as that's what the rest of the nation is building, and we have been a fairly big researcher and will hopefully continue to be; so, we can just keep the tax slider fairly high till we get some markets. Thoughts on this?

Well, it could be a library, too, and then we should operate on a low tech percentage. But I also would like to hear other opinions on this.

Could we finish both a library and a temple before the switch?

So I agree with your queue (except for the wonder part; Panama needs to both beef up on infrastructure and build more units for Lego.

Don't forget that we want at least one of the medieval happiness wonders, possibly a money bringing wonder (Adam's), ideally one of the tech wonders, and I didn't even mention the Magellan's which would help us fight against seaborn invasions. So 2 or 3 wonders in the medieval age, and we have only 3 productive cities right now.
Btw, does anyone else think that the GoW is using the Pyramids as a placeholder for SunTzu ?

The reason I have two settlers before the temple is that Farmerville won't need a Temple immediately if it keeps building settlers; the pop rush unhappiness is gone, and the de-pop from settlers should keep it below size 5, which is where a Temple starts becoming a good idea (and required a size 6). I'd do two settlers.

The reason I'd build a temple after the first settler is that we could poprush it. If we have enough time to build 2 settlers and then build+poprush a temple before the switch, I agree.

Forkmouth has over 50% corruption, and will still have 40% corruption under Republic; as such, I consider it little more than a farm for units and workers right now. Let's get some badly-needed units from it before investing in a courthouse and temple to make it a good size 6 city.

Yes, you're right, but shouldn't we let it grow bigger, exactly because it's so corrupted, to have a bigger shield output? It could build those units faster then.

Considering Zargonia and Logville's proximity to the RP crossing, that would help us keep a naval eye on things. But I'd prefer to build two workers first in Karina; the sooner they're built, the sooner they can start improving terrain there.

Edit: On second thought, maybe only do this in one city; I don't know how quickly we'll have funds to rush BOTH of them.

One of the reasons I wanted to put the temples higher on the priority lists of these cities is that we could poprush them (should we have time to do that, that is; we should, I think).

[Tiberius]

Well, actually until now I didn't really think out well what can we build before the switch.

I think we should do the switch in aprox. 18 - 20 turns.

Let's see, what can we build until then:

Legopolis: mercenary, settler, library (~18 turns)
Jackson: Pyramids, settler (15 turns) + something else: a unit, a galley, a worker to clear the surrounding jungles and start irrigating toward Jackson?
Panama: horseman, mercenary, temple (~ 16 turns or less if we rush the temple), then maybe one more unit before the switch
Farmerville: settler, settler
Red Bricks: library
the other cities: only workers. There's no time for anything else

With 2 libraries we should have a nice research potential, even operating on high tax rates (until we build a few marketplaces).

[vondrack]

I promised to Kloreep I would post my ideas which we discussed earlier today... unfortunately, the negotiations with GS and business duties will most probably not allow me to do so in full, so I will just briefly put the most important points:

1) switching to Republic is necessary eventually, but timing it properly (even if it means staying in Despotism for a few more turns) is essential

2) our core - Legopolis, Jackson, Panama... and soon Red Bricks and Dye Fields - should focus on building units and at least Sistine's Chapel. OTOH, I do agree we need to put the basic infrastructure there as well, to waste no beakers and gold.

3) our southern cities (south of Red Bricks) currently operate and will continue operating upon food for quite some time. Even under Republic, their shield output will be quite low. Thus, we should make sure that they make the best use of that food.

This said, I propose basically the following:

1) Keep Legopolis as much in REX mode as possible, always building an improvement (Library, Temple, Marketplace) for just few turns (4-5), then rush the rest with money and build another settler. This should maintain a steady flow of settlers even during the basic infrastructure buildup phase. Once we have the three vital city improvements in place, I would irrigate the cattle & grassland S of the city (making Legopolis a +5 food city, growing every two turns) and focus entirely on settlers. 4 turns should hopefully be enough to grow +2 pop, while building a settler. Rinse and repeat until we have ALL our cities in place.

2) keep our core cities at as high a pop as possible. I suggest we start building temples in Panama & Jackson shortly before actually switching to Republic (once we know we would not be able to finish anything else anyway), gold-rushing them once in Rep. Together with Dyes, that should make it possible to operate them at pop 6 without the need to use the lux slider.

3) use the food (=pop) to build temples in ALL southern cities. I suggest we let those cities grow to a population that will be able to pop-rush temples and do it ASAP (even well before switching to Republic). Build 20 (or 40, in the "best" cities like Forkmouth) shields the hard way, let the city grow to pop 4 (3), then poprush immediately. The temple itself will take care of 1 unhappy citizen, Dyes will calm the rest (even under the Republic). With the temple in place, we will be able to let those cities grow up to pop 6, which should result in at least a so-so production. Thus, my recommendation now would be: no workers! Whatever terrain improvements they'd be able to build, the production would remain almost the same anyway... Let the pop grow there and poprush temples first. Once in Republic, goldrushing would be too costly (as those cities will not be able to effectively contribute back enough to offset the cost of gold-rushing temples, unlike the core cities).

As Kloreep seemed to like the idea, I am sure he will incorporate it into his build queues...

Sorry to be brief, business duties call...

[Kloreep]

Okay, mish-mash of things... first of all, at Sharpe's suggestion, I got a corruption list for Karina when roaded, under Republic, and with a courthouse:

1:1
2:1
3:2
4:2
5:3
6:4
7:4
8:5
9:5
10:6
11:6
12:7
13:8
14:8
15:9
16:9
17:10
18:11
19:11
20:12

Second of all, I've looked at Logville and Zargonia poprush possibilities, and I think Logville can poprush a 2-rush Temple in 23 turns. (Zargonia, if it uses two chops, can do a 1-pop rush in 19 turns.) I think 24 turns sounds good for a revolution, don't you?

Also, we were talking about poprushing in Forkmouth on the IRC channel... as I see it, both a galley and a temple are possibilities. If we poprushed the galley, we could have it in 8 or 9 turns. A temple, if built next, could be poprushed (1-pop poprush) in ~13 turns. (The temple would mean chopping the game forest tile.) Poprushing both doesn't look like an option to me... it would require more turns spent in despotism. And it's a semi-productive city, we don't want to get its pop TOO angry.

Also, one thing that hasn't been discussed on IRC but has occured to me is poprushing in Karina. Assuming we continue the worker build, the city will essentially be back to square one soon. From there, it should grow faster with irrigation (assuming my order change for Rover goes through), and the new worker can chop both forests if need be; this would get 20 shields for a temple. 20 turns of production would get another 20 shields, allowing a 1-pop rush in Karina at the same time Logville does its. I think this would be a good build for Karina... after the Temple, it can build a Courthouse (to be rushed once in Republic), then start on the FP.

So, opinions? Rotten fruit?

Edit-in: And here is another queue revision.

Legopolis: Merc-Settler-Library-Marketplace-Temple
Jackson: The Pyramids-Settler-Temple-Barracks-Settler-Unit The Pyramids-Worker-Barracks-Merc-Temple-Worker-Merc
Panama: Horse(Finished this turn)-Horse-Temple-Settler-Unit-Library-Settler
Farmerville: Settler-Settler-Temple (Note: the Temple would be poprushed on turn 24, possibly earlier depending on corruption.)
Red Bricks: Library-Temple-Market (Note: Library would be poprushed in 14 turns)
Forkmouth: Galley-Barracks-Unit or Barracks-Unit-Unit depending on what is built next (the first item in each queue would be poprushed).
Karina: Worker-Temple-Courthouse-FP (Temple would be poprushed before Republic, Courthouse would be money rushed sometime after Republic)
Zargonia: Temple-? (Temple poprushed in 19 turns; worker near Zargonia chops both forests sometime in that period)
Logville: Temple-? (Temple poprushed in 23 turns)
Dye Fields: Worker-Worker-Temple (No hope of poprushing this Temple, so it should build itself a decent jungle-clearing force)

Under this plan, we would enter anarchy in about 25 turns (about turn 107). That means we'd be in Republic a few turns after turn 110.

Edit: Another problem is that we get almost no Mercs for 25 turns with these queues. Jackson could be set up as a Merc/worker factory, however. The first Merc could enter service in 19 turns. Here are some alternate Jackson queues:

Alternate Jackson: The Pyramids-Settler-Barracks-Unit
Alternate2 Jackson: The Pyramids-Worker-Barracks-Merc-Merc-Worker
Alternate3 Jackson: The Pyramids-Worker-Barracks-Merc-Temple

I prefer the 3rd the most; it gets a Merc quickly and prepares it to be in Republic at size 6. It could be 1-poprushed, but the problem with that is the unhappiness for 20 turns afterward; approximately 13 turns of that time will be in Republic (the other part in despotism and anarchy), and it will not be able to field all its citizens at size 6 during that time due to unhappiness. Because of this, I'd say its better to spend an extra turn on the temple, then build a worker. This will waste some food while the temple and worker are built, but only a little bit.

So, I'm striking out the old Jackson queue above and inserting Jackson3.

Further Edit: Sharpe pointed out to me that Legopolis didn't need to build the Temple first, and, running through it, I think it could build both the Library and Marketplace before the Temple. Queue adjusted.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Kloreep
Further Edit: Sharpe pointed out to me that Legopolis didn't need to build the Temple first, and, running through it, I think it could build both the Library and Marketplace before the Temple. Queue adjusted.

Hmmm... as mentioned in today's plans, finishing the current Merc in Legopolis is very wasteful. If we change the production to a Temple, it will be finished in 5 turns (making optimal use of all shields), just one turn before Legopolis grows to pop 6... we can either go on with the Merc and then Settler (as Legopolis will be able to operate at up to pop 7 with 1 MP unit, Temple & Dyes), or a Settler immediately... I have been thinking a lot about which sites we need to settle URGENTLY and to be honest, Sharpehaven was the only one I considered vital. All others should certainly be able to wait for few more turns... thus, I suggest skipping one Merc+Settler combo in favour of a Temple. The result of this operation should be that we get all the planned builds faster and/or cheaper, as the city will be operating at a higher pop level (->higher shield/gold output).

[Tiberius]

Sounds good to me. However I wouldn't build a settler without a nm after the temple. We are short of troops even now, there's no need to build yet another poorly defended (or even undefended) city.

[Kloreep]

Vondrack proposes building something else instead of a Merc in Legopolis, and I agree that's a good idea. But I think a Library would be a better build. New Legopolis plan I propose: Library-Merc-Temple-Settler. Here are my calculations:

+1: Pop growth to 5, +8 for 29
+2: +7 for 36
+3: +7 for 43
+4: +8 for 51
+5: Pop growth to 6, +8 for 59
+6: +9 for 68 (Robbie mines tile S of Legopolis)
+7: +9 for 77
+8: Lib complete
+9: +9 for 9
+10: Pop growth to 7. +11 for 20
+11: +11, Merc complete
+12: +12, 12 (stealing a hill tile from Jackson; this shouldn't affect the Barracks build there)
+13: +12, 24
+14: +12, 36
+15: +12, 48
+16: +12, Temple done - in 5 turns!
+17: +12, 12
+18: +12, 24
+19: Settler complete, just in time for Legopolis to be ready to bounce back up to Pop 6

[lmtoops]

I think the library is a better choice. We don't need the temple, but the library will help us maintain our tech advantage.