Lux Invicta

[Kloreep]

I agree with lmtoops; we may push them too far with 9 (4b in redstar's draft). However, I think we should have a set boundary; perhaps it should be in the mountains just past the desert. After all, that area is a third chance at a domestic oil supply.

[Tiberius]

Push them ??? They are close to being exterminated and we are offering them refuge. Without our guidance they could (probably) never find land. We are their saviour, so to speak. In what way are we pushing them ? If we wanted to attack them, we could do it right when they land, why would we wait until later in the game? One or two units patroling their teritorry is hardly a danger. We send there 2 units, MercBlix and MercBaradei and this is it.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Push them ??? They are close to being exterminated and we are offering them refuge. Without our guidance they could (probably) never find land. We are their saviour, so to speak. In what way are we pushing them ? If we wanted to attack them, we could do it right when they land, why would we wait until later in the game? One or two units patroling their teritorry is hardly a danger. We send there 2 units, MercBlix and MercBaradei and this is it.

Tibi, this is a matter of establishing good neighbourhood relationship. I do realize (and they do realize, too) that we are their saviour. However, if we force them too far - especially by including "humiliating" clauses like the obligation to let observing units freely enter their territory - there will be the feeling of bitterness left in them, instead of gratitude. That would make them a potential threat much more than anything else, especially more than granting them a good deal of "autonomy". They want to stay in the game to have some fun, even if ultimately out of the main race (maybe to have some kind of revenge on ND?). Making them our forever humbled colony would be no fun for them (would you be happy about such an agreement if you were them? it's a matter of elementary pride...).

I say, let's make a solid treaty, let's make sure we have guarantees, but let them have as much freedom (=>fun) as possible without compromising our own security. Keep in mind that by the time they finally land on Legos Minor, we will have like 9-10 great cities, while they will be founding their very first... they will never ever want to attack us unless feeling humiliated and/or bitter, because our retaliation strike would be their ultimate doom.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by vondrack
However, if we force them too far - especially by including "humiliating" clauses like the obligation to let observing units freely enter their territory - there will be the feeling of bitterness left in them, instead of gratitude.

So limiting their navy to 0 or a very limited nr. of ships (your proposal) would not be humiliating, while a unilateral RoP would be?

Nevermind. I don't want this clause so badly. It was for the sake of our own safety. If I am the only one who want it, then forget it.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
So limiting their navy to 0 or a very limited nr. of ships (your proposal) would not be humiliating, while a unilateral RoP would be?

That was a very bad idea of mine, I admit. I have realized this later when talking to Trip again. It was nothing he would say or such, but I realized that we have to let them keep their pride and some feeling of independence and freedom even if they become de facto our vassal state... otherwise, they might happily backstab on the very first occasion, hoping for territory gains.

OTOH, if their honour says that it would be utterly dishonest to attack us, it may very well serve us... pushing them a bit further from thoughts of treachery.

At least I hope so.

I talked to Trip several times in the past few days and I believe that even if he is cunning and never misses any opportunity, he is not immoral or something like that. He miscalculated and now faces the consequences... as a man, I would say.

[Tiberius]

I hope you won't make any agreement with Trip without our knowledge and/or approval, will you? If we agree with giving refuge to Lux on Legos Minor, I want this to happen in a legal, official way. I want a contract, that is. Not some verbal agreement, that yeah, yeah, come here and we'll talk later about the conditions.

Don' be fooled by Trip, thinking that they are finished now and will play only for fun. Once we will give them a new chance they will fight to win, just like anybody else in this game.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
I hope you won't make any agreement with Trip without our knowledge and/or approval, will you?

Ehm... Tibi...?

I would never do any such thing, that goes without saying. The fact that I would like Luxes to be happy about the agreement does not mean I would be willing to trust them blindly...

OTOH, no treaty will ever make us secure, as any treaty can be breached. A treaty is good only for making sure that both parties understand what is the deal about and do not try to interpret it in their own favour. We will have to make sure that we are not vulnerable to any attacks from them, treaty or no treaty. What I was mentioning was that making them less likely to consider any treachery is important. The more happy they are about finding asylum at Legos Minor, the better for us.

So, let's try getting as much as possible while making a fair deal that will please both sides, shall we?

[Tiberius]

Agreed

[ZargonX]

What about this thought: Once they make landfall, in order to help them get on their feet, we will move a worker and a merc onto Legos Minor. The merc will be to help defend them from barbarians until they can defend themselves, at which point he will pull back to the chokepoint. The worker will be there to give them assistance in building an infrastructure, thanks to our industrious traits. They would tell us what they want, we would order him around.

The benefit of this plan is that while we are being helpful, we also will have "observers" within their borders, especially with the worker. The benefit of having our industrious worker around will outweigh the fact that we can see what they're doing. And, if I were them, I would definately appreciate the gesture.

[Tiberius]

Excellent idea, except we don't need observers that soon If we do that, they will have to kiss out feet for a year

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Excellent idea, except we don't need observers that soon If we do that, they will have to kiss out feet for a year

Agreed, this is a good idea. It would help them a lot and certainly make for a good start between our two teams. Our industrious worker would be able to get them up and running much faster, while providing us with some intel.

OTOH, Tibi is right that we will need very little intel when they are THAT weak. The real need will come much later, when they are established.

Perhaps... what about arranging some sort of a periodic deal for their world or territory map? Give them something in exchange, like a luxury or resource that we have enough of...? They would "report" their map and we would give them something useful, yet not that valuable for us in exchange, guaranteeing nobody will get their map from us.

[redstar1]

Of course if everything is roaded, we can send in a Knight or other fast unit for a quick look, and have them out again without Lux even knowing.

[Jack_www]

This seems like a good deal to me.
Kind a like having a vassal state without the war.
BUt we have to watch them so they dont go expanding into Lego Major. Also I would wait on the workers to help them, maybe a road for trade at first and the rest latter, we got our own land mass to devolope, we dont need extra work.

I am worried that they might become a burrened to us in the future though.

[vondrack]

Luxes saved by Voxes

OK, everybody, important news. Keep it top secret!

Luxes were - after being backstabbed again by GoW - saved from elimination by generous Voxes that sort of "leased" them one of their own coastal cities, allowing them to build a galley and a settler, before sailing towards our continent and returning the city back to Voxes.

This in turn means that our deal with Luxes is not a matter of "if/maybe", but a matter of "how" and "what price".

redstar, be so kind and start working on a treaty draft, please. I have asked Trip for their proposal, starting simply with a deal on trading the map of Legos Minor for their world map (once they make contact with us, I suppose).

Once again, keep this top secret!

[ZargonX]

Interesting... a quite unexpected development, to be sure. This will actually probably work in our favor, as this will increase the time required for Lux to arrive in our lands, giving us more time to firmly establish ourselves, and the terms of the agreement. Keeping this agreement secret is, of course, top priority.

And, this will also give us time to hopefully get iron working, to settle once and for all the issue of how many resources we have available...