Lux Invicta

[quantum_mechani]

I would say that in the event they do manage to reach our continent, giving them Legos Minor would be the best course. I mean the good land on Legos Minor is so far from Legopolis that most of its benefits would be lost. Thats aside from the possibility that someone would settle it anyway before we could get to it. This wayed against the benefits of having our own vassal makes a deal thats hard to pass up.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by redstar1
As for LI. I'm not wholy against the idea of them using Legos Minor as a staging post, or a last retreat. But I think we would have to put some fairly stringent controls on how they get there and what they do there. There is probably room for 2 decent cities (with harbours) and 1 or 2 other ones but its certainly something that needs to be discussed at length both here and with LI.

I do agree that stringent controls would be a must. Go ahead and throw your ideas in. I shall be talking to Trip later today, so anything we can come up with may be proposed and pre-discussed soon (no final deals made, though). Some ideas crossing my mind:

1) no or very limited navy
2) will allow a spy to be placed, once it becomes an option
3) a carved-in-stone border on the isthmus they would not be allowed to even approach with a military unit

q_m makes a good point about the wasted potential of Legos Minor... while we would be wasting most of what can be sucked from that part of our landmass due to the distance from Legopolis, Luxes would make most of it, running a small, tighly packed empire. That would maximize our combined power - they would most probably never try attacking us (the isthmus would be almost unpenetrable), but if going with us against a common enemy, they might come in handy.

[redstar1]

I'll see if I can get online later and maybe get involved in that discussion

I certainly think it would be worthwhile putting the idea across...

[ZargonX]

As I mentioned during the chat last night, I do not think we should alter any of our plans either. At minimum, it will take the Luxes at least 25-30 turns to get anywhere close to our lands. By the time they arrive, Forkmouth should be up and running, and I would like to see a city placed in the SE portion of our lands to form a new eastern port.

As for giving them refuge on Legos minor, it is feasable, but with very strong conditions attached.

1) no or very limited navy
2) will allow a spy to be placed, once it becomes an option
3) a carved-in-stone border on the isthmus they would not be allowed to even approach with a military unit

These are good, but there are some mitigating circumstances...

-The mountains and hills on Legos minor could proved to be a source of iron and coal in time, and we have no idea what sort of strat. resources we have on our mainland. In the event we have no iron, we don't want the Luxes settled on our closest source. If that were to happen, they could easily decide to trash any agreements with us since they would have the advantage. I think we will have iron and whatnot on the mainland, but it is something to consider.

-We still do not know how far/close the Vox/GS continent is to the west. If it turns out to be somewhat close, do we want Lux serving as the middleman between us and two other civs?

All in all, I guess I'm undecided at the moment. If they agreed to the conditions, they would be hemmed in quite effectively, with the potential of serving as a good ally. However, if another team were to get to them sometime in the future and convince them to turn on us, we'd have an enemy on our doorstep, essentially.

Of course, this is all tempered by the fact that Lux will probably never even make it to our lands

[Kloreep]

I'd be okay with giving them Legos Minor, as long as they agree to our conditions. You might add gifting us all techs we don't have that they do upon first contact, though that might be pushing them a little too far; they may not be powerful, but if we propose this deal, we'll be essentially admitting they can became a big problem for us if want. And since they probably realize they don't have a chance at winning if they have to start over, I think a refugee Lux team's allegiance would simply depend on who they like most...

Edit: And if we do want to push them - though as I said, our "permission" for a cruddy little empire may not be much to a defeated team - their WM is another good thing to ask for. It would be really helpful to get part of Bob's geography; in fact, I'd put that as a higher priority demand than techs, which we can always trade for.

[vondrack]

Yeah, their map should be requested, that's a good idea. It will be of no use to them anyway, and almost to no immediate use to us, but it would be valuable in the long run.

Perhaps we might offer exchanging their worldmap for the map of Legos Minor once we are done charting it (should be within 10 turns)?

[ZargonX]

Indeed. Maps are always helpful to have, and as you pointed out, it's not doing them any good anymore...

[lmtoops]

I think it's a GOOD idea to give them Legos Minor. We could never make much use of it.

We could come to an agreement on the techs. We will have some techs that they do not and maybe they have some we need. I don't see this as a sticking point.

I would like an agreement on Iron. If we have none and they have 2, then they should gift us the extra. If we have none and they have 1.....we'll need to discuss this.

Let's not limit their Navy too much. After all, this is all they have. If they are a true allie, then a resonably strong Navy would be of benefit.

Definitely make it plain that if they land on Legos Major, we will war.

[Tiberius]

I agree to give them refuge on Legos Minor, with the following observations:

1. We must sign a treaty, carved in stone, save the PMs, whatever, so keep the proof that they agreed with our conditions (to avoid later discussions, that they approved this but not that, etc)

2. They will be never, not now, not later, allowed to land on Legos Major. Such action would lead automatically to war

3. carved-in-stone border on the isthmus they would not be allowed to approach within, let's say 3 tiles;

4. They declare and sign that they will never ever sign a treaty against us (like a trade embargo or such)

5. Full tech exchange between them and us once they land (everything they have vs. everything we have)

6. Once we make contact, exchange their world map with the map of Legos the minor

7. should they discover resources we don't have on Legos Minor, first they ask us for a trade and only then the others

8. They should be forbidden to make public their new geographical position, to exchange minimaps with others or conduct any diplomacy that would compromise our security (until we say them that they can; that should be after we colonized the entire continent).

9. We should be allowed at any time to keep or move troops on their territorry. (UN observers )

I don't agree on the no-navy clause; on the contrary; we want them to expand (if they can) on other continents

That's it, I think. Finally, a word of warning: don't ever trust them. Everything we agree should be very precise, written and signed.

[lmtoops]

I don't like the idea of haveing too many restrictions. They are already handcuffed in many respects. If we have too many restrictions, we can are asking for some violations.

I suppose we can start with all of Tiberius' demands and then negotiate down a bit.

Now that I re-read Tiberius' demands, they aren't so bad. I only disagree with 3 and 9. I don't think we need a demilitarized zone. Any I think it's too much to have our troops patrolling their territory. Further, we have no need to be in their territory.

[Tiberius]

Well, that 9 would be an unilateral RoP (and furthermore, we let them on our teritorry, so we demand the freedom to move freely on our former teritorries; * sigh * nostalgy, what can we do ).

As for 3, indeed, it is not very important, but it would be an early warning for us, should they ever rebell.

[redstar1]

I think that it might be a good idea to draft an agreement up to cover this potential 'arrangement'. Bear in mind though that Lux are at least 40 turns away from landing on Legos Minor and it may all become academic. Still, it doesn't hurt to be prepared....


Legos Agreement (First Draft)

1. Legoland claims all territory currently uncovered, and such territory that may be uncovered in the future. that is part of our continent/island.

2. Legoland distinguishes Legos Major as continuous territory east of Angus' Neck. Legos Minor is distinguished as all continuous territory west of Angus' Neck.

3. Legoland regard Legos Major as sacred territory and reserve exclusive right to settle on this land. Legoland reserves the right to use force to expel any foreign agent(s) discovered on Legos Major.

4. Legoland is prepared to offer exclusive right to settle on Legos Minor to the Lux Invicta tribe under the conditions set out below:

- Lux Invicta recognise the sovereignty of Legos Major as exclusively that of Legoland and promise not to attempt to cross Angus' Neck.

- Lux Invicta recognise the right of Legoland to station 'observers' on Legos Minor at arranged intervals to ensure the conditions of this treaty are not threatened.

- Lux Invicta sign a non-agression pact with Legoland to ensure that hostilities are not an option, and also to ensure that Lux Invicta do not disclose information to other Nations that may impinge on Legoland's national security.

5. In addition to these conditions, Legoland is openminded about cooperation with Lux Invicta and strives for a close alliance.





Well I think thats the basics for now. Further discussions with Lux will bring up more but until then i think we can discuss among ourselves what is acceptable and what is not.

[Tiberius]

I definitely want (urge, to be clear) to include in any treaty all of our demands, not just a general outline (see my List of the 9 demands). I know that some of them you have included in your proposal, but I think all of them are reasonable and should be included in any agreement, even a preliminary one.

Besides, I'm against point 5. Yes, we are openminded for cooperation with anybody, including the Luxes, but shouldn't we wait to meet them and see what kind of people/civ they are before we commit ourselves in a long-term alliance?

[redstar1]

Yeah, I agree with your points, I just didn't add them but I will do for draft 2 with your permission of course.

The thing about point 5 is that its only active if we both agree to the whole thing, by which time we will know if we want to co-operate.

[lmtoops]

I would like specific agreements on tech exchange.