Next turn plans 60AD to 1240AD

[ZargonX]

23) Red Bricks to change production to Sistine
yes, gentlemen, one more turn and we are hopefully done

How many hundreds of years have we been planning for this day?

[vondrack]

Following the happiness analysis I have just posted in a separate thread, it is obvious there is no need to build colosseums in the near to mid future (up to pop 19, we are fine with just cathedrals, even if import no more than 3 luxuries). However, our most developed cities, especially the inland ones, will be running out of build options in the near future...

I can see the following options:

1) build new military
Rather not, IMHO (except the camps). Our military is strong to everybody else (and that's with just a single infantry!), which seems "strong enough" to me - and the upkeep we pay for something we are not using for more than "passively impressing/threatening" others sounds like kind of wasting money... a strong shield production base capable of building a large force once the necessity arises is IMHO more important than a large standing army.

2) build navy
This obviously applies to coastal cities only. IMHO, we should gradually replace all our pickets with ironclads - they pose no threat to other teams (no ship chaining possible), hardly ever becoming a reason to alienate them, they move 5, and can never be upgraded (so they can stay there indefinitely). We need 12 more ironclads to replace all of our picket caravels/galleons. Three of them are already under construction. After finishing these ironclads, I'd pause and wait for destroyers to become available (those only come with Combustion, which is like 13-15 turns from now).

3) build coal plants
Considering that we do not really need to build that much stuff now and the added pollution coming from them, coal plants do not seem to be a good choice generally. A coal plant would make sense in Legopolis (if we finish Wall Street there and are still unable to build a hospital). Coal plants might make sense in some non-riverbank coastal cities (in those that will become our shipyards). But considering that:

a) transports are 100S (and we will hardly ever build any - we have loads of caravels and galleons to upgrade)
b) submarines are 100S
c) destroyers are 120S
d) carriers are 180S
e) battleships are 200S
f) nuclear submarines are 140S (but come very late)

there are only certain spt levels making sense: 25, 30, 40, 45, 50, 60, 70, 90, & 100. We should be able to get up to 45-50 with just a hospital and factory - so, unless the coal plant takes the city to the next spt level, we do not need to build it (and even if it does take it there, it may be arguable whether it's necessary, as we will be using the cities flexibly to build whatever they are able to build at an optimum rate).

4) generate wealth
5) build modern military units to replace obsolete ones
Talking about riflemen and cannons here - we need no more cavalries, IMHO. Infantries are 90S, artilleries are 80S.

To upgrade a rifleman to infantry, one needs to pay 20g (the shield cost difference is 10S), Means that a 45spt city can either be set to wealth and generate extra 11gpt, or it can build brand new 2t infantries. The first option brings in extra 22g we use to upgrade the rifleman to infantry (net profit 2g). The other option needs no gold for an upgrade, as we replace the rifleman with the new infantry, disbanding the rifleman for 20S. IMHO, it's quite obvious that it's better to build brand new units than to upgrade the obsolete ones, as we are basically choosing between 2g and 20S we can use to speed builds in low-shield cities up. Plus, we upgrade our regular defenders to veteran ones.

For cannon and artillery, the comparison is even more in favour or building new units: a 40spt city needs only 2t to build a new arty piece, while it needs 10t to generate 80g needed to upgrade a cannon to arty.

So - as long as we have cities that have nothing meaningful to build (i.e. have everything except coal plant, colosseum, and courthouse if close enough to the capital/FP - and no navy to build if coastal), I suggest that we use them to build military units to be used to replace the existing ones. I would go in the following order (keeping our military at 60 attackers/defenders and 30 artillery - once we generate extra gold, while still researching 4t techs, we can add more defenders and artillery):

a) regular riflemen (3 in Panama, 2 in Nou Camp)
b) cannons (29 of them)
c) veteran riflemen

I'd like to stress this only applies to cities that really run out of good builds - like Karina after it finishes the cathedral and before it will be able to build a hospital.

[ZargonX]

I would definately like to see our naval pickets all kept up as the most modern ships we can. Additionally, lots of artillery will be very useful, and I would like to see very large numbers of that, as well.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
I would definately like to see our naval pickets all kept up as the most modern ships we can.

You mean like replacing the ironclads with destroyers and later battleships? Why would we want to do that? The pickets (i.e. the early warning screen) will be sunk on day 1 of a war, because of sitting there like ducks, giving the enemy the advantage of the first strike (which will actually be a lethal blow) - better have cheap obsolete units sunk than modern, expensive ones, no? The current wave of ironclad replacements is motivated by the different nature of the ships being replaced - caravels and galleons are transports ships we'll need elsewhere and would have to build from scratch if not recalling them from the picket positions.

I would, however, enhance the early warning screens by another belt of submarines once we are able to - so that once the picket ironclads go down, we still know what's coming at us.

Originally posted by ZargonX
Additionally, lots of artillery will be very useful, and I would like to see very large numbers of that, as well.

Completely agreed - just that we need fast research more than loads of arty ATM. If we build dozens and dozens of arty pieces, we will have to pay upkeep for them, which will slow us down in the tech race - as long as we are able to research techs at the 4t pace, yes, arty all the way. But until we get to that speed, I would stick to the 30 arty pieces we currently have, just replacing the cannons with true artillery.

[ZargonX]

You mean like replacing the ironclads with destroyers and later battleships?

Sorry, I misphrased that: I want to see our Naval response force made up of the latest ships. The pickets can be any ol' junk

[vondrack]

Agreed then.

[vondrack]

Our military to be upgraded in the near future:
56 riflemen ... 56 * 2g/S * (90S-80S) = 1120g needed for upgrades to infantry
8 horsemen .... 8 * 2g/S * (80S-30S) = 800g needed for upgrades to cavalry
29 cannons ... 29 * 2g/S * (80S-40S) = 2320g needed for upgrades to artillery
Total funds needed for upgrades: 1120+800+2320=4240g


Plans for 930AD (Turn 209):

Unit Movement/Actions

1) F.D. to move N-NE-NE-N
heading for Crossing to upgrade and anchor there permanently

2) G.B. to move SW-SW-W, then upgrade

3) Iron to move SW-SW-SW-SW-SW
heading towards the southernmost tip of WNS

4) new ('58th') infantry finished in Nou Camp to fortify there

5) new ironclad finished in Logville to be named 'Heart of Iron' and moved S-S-SW-SW-SW
shall sink those 2 barb galleys and then turn eastwards to replace one of the picket galleons

6) new ironclad finished in Crossing to be named 'Anvil' and moved SE-SE-SE-SE-SE
heading for the position of B.D. to replace her


Worker Movement/Actions

7) Farmer, Leopold Jr. & Michael Jr. to move NE and rr
I must have made a mistake last turn - to finish Wall Street in 4t instead of 5t, we will need to up the shield production in Legopolis by one more shield (300-127=173, 173/4>43)

8) Jack & Liam to move to SW-SW of Karina and rr
maxxing out the growth potential of Ahhmyfoot

9) Patrick & Bill Jr. to move to N of Zargonia and rr
allowing the Zargonia labourer to be reassigned from the irrigated grassland to the iRRigated desert for an extra spt (needed to shave a turn off the factory build there)

10) Chris & Frank Jr. to move to N-NW of Logville and rr
needed for a quick 1t settler in Logville

11) Kirk to move E-NE and irrigate
finishing the 1t worker pump setup of Farmerville

12) Bruno to move to W-NW of Crossing, then road
Crossing could operate at nice 16spt (perfect 80/160S builds) if working a hill instead of the iRRigated desert

13) Ken to move to N of Q.M., then road, rr, and irrigate
14) Rudy to move to N-NW of Q.M., then road, rr, and irrigate
preparing to maxx out the Q.M. food potential, allowing more hills to be worked at higher pop levels

15) Duncan & Fritz to move to SW of Ahhmyfoot and rr

16) Dean & Logger to move to W of Sharpehaven and rr

17) Kevin, Jesse, & Keith to move to E-NE of Oasis and rr

18) Eric, Philippe, & Richard to move to SW of Kloreepville and rr
19) Martin, George, & Charlie to move to SE of Kloreepville and rr
20) Adam Jr, Francis, & Jason Jr. to move to SE-SE of Kloreepville and rr

21) David, Elias, & Gus Jr. to move to S of Q.M. and rr
22) Ira, Jimbo, & Paddy to move to SE of Q.M. and rr
23) Kevin, Jesse, & Keith to move to SE-SE of Q.M. and rr
24) Jacob, Stanley Jr., & Toby Jr. to move to E-SE of Q.M. and rr

Gastarbeiters over on Bob:
25) Felix, Luke, & Joe to rr, then go home

26) new worker finished in Invoice to be sent over to Vox
27) Ivan Jr. to be sent over to Vox


City Management

28) Legopolis to change production to Great Library
will be switched to Wall Street once we complete five stock exchanges

29) Farmerville to work all (6) irrigated tiles, 1 rred/mined bonus grassland, and 4 rred/mined regular grasslands; start a worker
should be a nice 1t worker-pump (+20fpt, over 10spt)

30) Red Bricks to start a factory

31) Forkmouth labourer from the floodplains E-NE to the rred/mined grassland N-NW
to shave 1t off the factory build here

32) Karina labourers from the iRRigated plains S-SW and SW-SW to the roaded/irrigated bonus grassland NE and roaded/irrigated desert NE-NE
freeing the iRRigated plains for Ahhmyfoot

33) Zargonia labourer from the roaded/irrigated grassland W-NW to the iRRigated desert S
for an extra shield needed to complete the factory in 4t instead of 5t

34) Dye Fields labourer from the rred/mined grassland S to a coast
Stock Exchange still in 2t, more commerce

35) Logville labourer from a coast to the newly rred/mined grassland N-NW; start settler
with close to 30spt, Logville is hardly optimal for building 80S ironclads... so we better build some infrastructure here. The two pop points currently working coast could be better used to generate shields elsewhere - Logville has some fine growth potential we're currently wasting a bit... so we do a 1t settler here, send/add him to one of the newly aqueducted cities, and set Logville to a mid-size project(s) like cathedral or stock exchange, while happily growing back to pop 12

36) Sharpehaven labourer from the rred/mined grassland SE-SE to coast
allowing Forkmouth to work the grassland

37) Oasis to work all railroaded tiles, roaded/irrigated grassland, and the hill E-NE

38) Tarzania labourer from a hill to the fish
uni still in 1t, but more food & commerce

39) Invoice to start another 2t worker
means labourer from the coal mountain to coast

40) Ahhmyfoot to work both iRRigated plains, 4 mined grasses including the bonus one SE, and the rred hill E

41) Crossing to start another ironclad

42) Nou Camp to work 4 hills, iRRigated grassland, and rred/mined grassland; start infantry
a cool 5t infantry setup (just like Camp David)

43) Port Hammer to work all land tiles, fish, and one more coast; start worker
a quick 1t worker used to transfer pop elsewhere (it would only be working coast, which is suboptimal ATM)


44) set science slider as low as possible while still nailing Refining in 1t

[Jon Shafer]

I find it extrordinarily odd that the team that could benefit most of all from Hospitals is hardly giving them a glance.

[vondrack]

Since when you were given the access to our forum to tease us?

Sanitation is important, hospitals are cool, but as you can see, we are doing reasonably well even w/o them. We will have to wait for Sanitation to be delivered by Vox (it's going to be their next research project, after Communism)... which is not going to happen for at least few more turns - we are certainly not going to detour ourselves, as keeping the pace (or lagging behind as little as possible) in the main tech race is more important ATM.

But... you did know that, didn't you? So stop teasing us - better go whip other teams so that they don't delay the game so much.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by vondrack
Sanitation is important, hospitals are cool, but as you can see, we are doing reasonably well even w/o them.

But good enough?

I've never been one for pulling punches when I thought I was winning. But that's just me.

And no, not foreshadowing, just an observation.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by vondrack
We will have to wait for Sanitation to be delivered by Vox (it's going to be their next research project, after Communism)...

How much time will it take btw?

I'm all for prebuilding hospitals, so that they are built the turn right after we get sanitation. In the face of GoW + GS science, we will need these hospitals as soon as possible. If not, even GS may become more productive than us with hospitals + factories.

[vondrack]

Most our cities are now producing like 35-45spt, which makes prebuilds rather unimportant... the whole build takes like 4-6 turns, so shaving 1-2 off by using a prebuild is not a big deal...

I fully acknowledge that having Sanitation/hospitals would be great, but I currently do not see how we could get to the tech at a reasonable price - my estimate is we'll have to wait like 10-15 turns before we get it from Vox. They need few more turns to finish communism and then some time to do the Sanitation.

The more workers we send over to them, the sooner we get Sanitation (and Communism, too).

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Spiffor
How much time will it take btw?

This is almost impossible to say, because it directly depends on how many workers we feed Voxes with. I have to admit I am not fully up to date on the progress of the communism research - we should get it around 970-980AD, I believe (basing my estimate on a notice by Rhothaerill attached to the 890AD save). That's some 5-6 turns. Then about 6-8 more turns to Sanitation.

[vondrack]

Our military to be upgraded in the near future:
56 riflemen ... 56 * 2g/S * (90S-80S) = 1120g needed for upgrades to infantry
8 horsemen .... 8 * 2g/S * (80S-30S) = 800g needed for upgrades to cavalry
29 cannons ... 29 * 2g/S * (80S-40S) = 2320g needed for upgrades to artillery
Total funds needed for upgrades: 1120+800+2320=4240g


Plans for 940AD (Turn 210):

Unit Movement/Actions

1) F.D. to move NE-N-NW and upgrade to galleon
then anchor there, joining the Ferry Fleet

2) G.B. to move E-NE-N-NW, then to Jackson and anchor there

3) Iron to move SW-SW-SW-SW-SW
heading towards the southernmost tip of WNS

4) use our arty and cannons to bombard the two barbarian galleys E-SE of Horsefish down to 1/2

5) Heart of Iron to sink one of the barbarian galleys E-SE of Horsefish
shall sink the other one on the following turns and then turn eastwards to replace one of the picket galleons

6) Anvil to move S-S-S-S and fortify
allowing B.D. to sail back to Crossing and join our Ferry Fleet

7) new ironclad finished in Kloreepville to be named 'Maul' and moved NW-NW-NW-W-SW

8) settler finished in Logville to join Ahhmyfoot


Worker Movement/Actions

9) Farmer, Leopold Jr. & Michael Jr. to move to NW-NW of Logville and rr
10) Jack & Liam to move to W-NW of Logville and rr
11) Patrick & Bill Jr. to move to N of Logville and rr
12) Kevin, Jesse, & Keith to move to NE of Logville and rr
13) Eric, Philippe, & Richard to move to N-NW of Logville and rr
maxxing out the Logville output/growth

14) Chris & Frank Jr. to move to SW of Tarzania and rr
15) Duncan & Fritz to move to S-SW of Tarzania and rr
helping the city reach the optimal output of 40spt

16) Kirk to move to SE of Ahhmyfoot and irrigate
17) Dean & Logger to move to S-SW of Ahhmyfoot and rr
18) Martin, George, & Charlie to move to NE of Ahhmyfoot and rr
preparing the city for the joined settler, keeping it at max shields and +3fpt with one more grass/hill worked

19) Bruno to road

20) Ken to road

21) Rudy to road

22) Adam Jr, Francis, & Jason Jr. to move to E of Tipperary and rr
23) David, Elias, & Gus Jr. to move to E-NE of Tipperary and rr
maxxing the shield output of the city

24) Jacob, Stanley Jr., & Toby Jr. to move to E-NE of Oasis and rr

25) Ira & Jimbo to move to SW-SW of Crossing and rr

26) Jesse & Paddy to move to SE of Abilene and rr
27) Kevin & Keith to move to N of Abilene and rr

Gastarbeiters over on Bob:
28) Felix to road
29) Luke & Joe to mine

30) new workers finished in Farmerville & Port Hammer to be sent over to Vox


City Management

31) Farmerville to work all (6) irrigated tiles, 1 rred/mined bonus grassland, and 4 rred/mined regular grasslands; start a worker
1t worker-pump (+20fpt, over 10spt) in action

32) Panama to start cathedral
last infrastructure build before switching to navy production

33) Logville to work all shield-producing tiles; start stock exchange

34) Tarzania to work all hills, all mined grasslands, and one iRRigated bonus grassland; start stock exchange
a nice 40spt setup - first a 5t stock exchange, then a 4t cathedral, then either a hospital or military replacements

35) Kloreepville to start another ironclad
the last ironclad before switching back to infra (the navy production will taken over by Panama)

36) Tipperary to start temple

37) Port Hammer to work all land tiles, fish, and 1 coast; start marketplace


38) start researching Steel at 70%
should eventually be a 4t research project, as it's likely that someone discovers Steel before us and lowers its cost to ~3000 beakers, allowing us to quickly finish it by going 90% on the fourth turn

39) send as much gold to Vox as needed to allow them go 100% research
thanks to making 500+ gold on the last turn of our Refining research (thanks to whoever discovered the tech last turn ) and Wall Street coming online in 4t, I believe it's time to start funding deficit Voxian research. Unless I hear you protest, I will contact Voxes tomorrow asking them to fire their research up to 100%, sending them as much gold as needed to cover their deficit.

Agreed?

[Spiffor]

Agreed.

We definitely need these hospitals quickly, so 100% vox research is an aim worth achieving