The Bob War

[vondrack]

Part II:

vondrack: next point:
vondrack: DIPLOMACY
vondrack: this is tricky
vondrack: let me explain
vondrack: at this moment, our relations with GS are "polite"
vondrack: we have a tech trade prearranged
vondrack: we are trading luxuries (thanks to the great lighthouse)
vondrack: we are supposed to deliver Astronomy, getting Banking in return
vondrack: we believe it will be best to honor the deal
vondrack: not blowing our cover too soon
[ND]Darekill: certainly
[GoW]Donegeal: Galley upgrade to Caraval's right?
vondrack: we DID send them a very strongly worded ambassadorial note
MasterZen: did they answer?
vondrack: making it totally clear that if they expand on Bob, we will NOT stay neutral
vondrack: yes, they did
vondrack: just bull****
MasterZen: how surprising :P
vondrack: so... we do not plan to arrange any more deals with them
MasterZen: good
vondrack: but we would still like to keep our involvement secret as long as possible
vondrack: the longer they do not know
vondrack: the better
Panzer32: 4Just a note to wrap up the last point: I calculate we can do inv. in 7 turns with 0gpt
vondrack: cool!
vondrack: GS will get a hint once you two get Astro from us
vondrack: so - the question is: do you need it?
[ND]Darekill: still you would need some money to rush something right?
vondrack: I mean - would you be able to make any use of Astronomy?
vondrack: like building Caravels?
Panzer32: well I guess we don't NEED it, but we do have 3 galleys that we might like to upgrade
[GoW]Donegeal: come to think of it... we don't need Astro in this war...
MasterZen: but GS can actually use it...
[ND]Darekill: we would not need it soon.
MasterZen: 3 transported units instead of 2, and defense of 2, that's not good news for us
vondrack: not really, MZ - The Great Lighthouse does most of it for them already
[ND]Darekill: another point astronomy triggers the spanish UU?
vondrack: nope
vondrack: Navigation
[ND]Darekill: ah good.
MasterZen: I don't mean the range, I mean the units which can be transported
vondrack: if they do Navigation, they will not be doing gunpowder
redstar1: RP are certainly after Nav....
[ND]Darekill: We have no big navy but will it sufice for the trade that you have it.
vondrack: right... though I believe that GS has a navy large enough to not care...
vondrack: do you have any navy capable of attacking their transport vessels?
MasterZen: not significant
vondrack: do not get me wrong - we are ready to give Astro to you
vondrack: just trying to find out if it is worth giving GS the hint
Panzer32: 2 galleys near Port Isolation
[ND]Darekill: our only harbor is Arnablanca..
Panzer32: (and 1 on west coast)
vondrack: So - both of you... think this over and let us know. We have 5 turns to discuss this.
[ND]Darekill: + we have no city on the east coast.
MasterZen: I'd rather give GS the hint by not giving them Astro at all... think about it, they can land 15 instead of 10 units with caravels in a turn
[GoW]Donegeal: the only way GS would know would be if they checked for peace after you gave it to them....
MasterZen: and caravels are pretty much indestructible by other galleys or caravels
Panzer32: The thing is, if they have the hint, what can they do with it, recruit allies? I don't think so
vondrack: that would mean breaking a treaty... and letting GS know VERY early we are going to fight them
vondrack: they would be planning for three enemies, not just two
vondrack: the three of us are barely enough to balance their power, believe me
vondrack: they are a monster at this moment
Panzer32: I think it would be worth it, but this is my opinion
[GoW]Donegeal: say something came up and tell them Astro won't come for a couple of turns after you have giev it to us... we upgrade our navy and go after the b******s
vondrack: they will know someone discovered Astro
[GoW]Donegeal: how?
vondrack: and the only team capable of that is us
vondrack: checking the research cost
vondrack: goes down
vondrack: after someone learns the tech
[GoW]Donegeal: where... I don't know what your talking about...
vondrack: they will know the very turn we get it
vondrack: on the F6 screen
[GoW]Donegeal: yes but in MP the other teams don't get to see what techs you have!!!!
vondrack: no - that's something different
Panzer32: the # of turns to research goes down, Donegeal
vondrack: if you hover over a tech on the F6 screen
vondrack: it shows the number of turn to research it
vondrack: based on your current beaker output
Panzer32: Its a tricky science and I dont think any GoW member has ever done it
vondrack: they check it every turn, I am very sure
MasterZen: yeah, it's a common espionage trick
[ND]Darekill: That was how RP found out about Chiv.
vondrack: besides...
vondrack: let me elaborate a bit, please
[ND]Borc: can gs give astronomy to rp?
vondrack: nope
vondrack: not legally
[ND]Darekill: do you think they care ?
vondrack: and I believe they will not break the treaty unless we break some
vondrack: yes, they do care
vondrack: there si no loophole
vondrack: *is
[ND]Darekill: after they find out that we have it?
vondrack: nothing forbids us from trading it to you/GoW
vondrack: we have not promised we would not trade Astro to you
vondrack: and with our very cold stance
vondrack: they will hardly be surprised we'll do the trade
vondrack: ...back to my idea:
[ND]Darekill: anyway Astronomy isn'T realy important to us.
vondrack: ok
MasterZen: but it is to GS...
[ND]Darekill: Musketeers are another chapter.
[ND]Darekill: Yes it is for GS certainly.
redstar1: Conquistadors
vondrack: this is a bit I posted in our forum:
vondrack: err... better not
vondrack: sorry
vondrack: includes info I do not wish to dicslose
vondrack: *disclose
[ND]Darekill: *g* so you do have secrets? *gee* well we have too...
vondrack: we have debated this over a lot in Lego
vondrack:
vondrack: and we really believe that the benefits of keeping our alliance secret
[ND]Borc: very dirty secrets
vondrack: outweight the fact that GS will be able to us caravels
vondrack: *use
vondrack: we are still open to debate, but ATM we strongly prefer keeping the cover
vondrack: the element of surprise will be the key here
vondrack: to this effect
vondrack: we are not going to publicly announce our involvement any time soon
MasterZen: yes but that will mean a window of opportunity in which we still won't have Muskets and GS can clobber us with huge landings
Panzer32: I'm just wondering, how are you going to surprise them? With what?
vondrack: with Lego units on Bob
vondrack: they will not expect them there
Panzer32: right... are you planning to land any time soon?
MasterZen: we could really use some knights right now...
vondrack: our galleys are not very suitably positioned
vondrack: just a sec
[ND]Darekill: oh, I have to go.
[ND]Darekill: I'm sorry.
[ND]Borc: Wouldnt it be better if youi land on GS coasts
Panzer32: see you later Darekill
[ND]Darekill: Borc can you take over?
MasterZen: will take more than Astro for that
MasterZen: cya Herr Barbarian!
Panzer32: Borc - Lego doesn't want to do that
[ND]Darekill: By
vondrack: see you, Darekill
* [ND]Darekill has left #gow_cofa
[ND]Borc: hmm, im stiil busy at work...
MasterZen: doesn't, and can't IIRC
vondrack: well, the very first knights could land near Vigo in about 6 turns, I think - though we would prefer landing somewhere behind the lines, maybe near Arnablance
vondrack: yes, cannot - until Navigation
vondrack: but the transport capacity is very limited
vondrack: so do not rely on our troops for at least 10 turns
[ND]Borc: 10 turns sound snot too bad
[ND]Borc: ywe have many options where you can land later
Panzer32: snot?
[ND]Borc: will depend also from the gs tacic
[ND]Borc: *snot = not, sorry
vondrack: I would personally prefer assembling a bigger stack somewhere behind the lines, keeping it hidden, striking only when GS advances
vondrack: against your core
vondrack: basically -
vondrack: you fight at the RP soil
vondrack: we make sure you do not get into troubles in your homelands
vondrack: but that is just a very vague idea
vondrack: and will have to change, I am quite sure
vondrack: as the war progresses
MasterZen: GS's invasion might come sooner than we all think...
vondrack: well, yes, but what can we do...
[GoW]Donegeal: Vond... you realize that giving GS Astro will leave them one tech from being able to invade legoland, right?
vondrack: yes, I do
vondrack: if they invade, fine
vondrack: they will not be able to hold on Bob then
Panzer32: works the other way too Donegeal
vondrack: exactly
vondrack: so, one point I would like to have cleared: you DO want our units to start landing on Bob ASAP, right?
Panzer32: I believe so, yes
vondrack: Borc?
[GoW]Donegeal: yes... but if Lego holds onto Astro, then Lego will have a two tech advantage on invading Stormia!
vondrack: as I said - we do NOT want to invade Stormia, unless GS invades Legos
[ND]Borc: sorry... i am sometimes away for some seconds
Panzer32: are you planning on passing in the north or the south?
vondrack: probably both
vondrack: one galley is on the South, the other one in the North
[ND]Borc: but i am sure if we amek a poll ND will be glad to see you landing
MasterZen: us too
[ND]Borc: *amek = make
MasterZen: hell we don't even need a poll :P
vondrack: ok - at least 5 turns to do the polls
vondrack: just let us know if the poll turns out to be a surprise
[ND]Borc: 5 turns are 5 weeks
vondrack: the Northern galleys would be landing somewhere between Trafalgar and DDD, I assume
[ND]Borc: we will start the poll tonight! its just becasue we are republic
vondrack: the Southern one around Arnablance, I think
Panzer32: Vondrack - here are the best landing spots
vondrack: yes?
Panzer32: N or S of Trafalgar, N or NW of DDD - these tiles have roads
vondrack: ok, thanks

[vondrack]

Part III:

vondrack: next point:
vondrack: WORKERS
Panzer32: but it sort of depends how we move the workers
[GoW]Donegeal: what difference does roads make?
vondrack: would ND have any use for a couple of industrial workers?
Panzer32: they can move quicker?
vondrack: they allow us to move faster
[GoW]Donegeal: we can't have an RoP with lego or GS will get the hint.
[ND]Borc: normally yes - there is so much jungle her
Panzer32: but they don't have an embassy
[GoW]Donegeal: no embassy with any of us?
vondrack: right, no embassy with GS, nor RP for Lego
[ND]Borc: but the jungle is near the borders and close to the war zone :-(
vondrack: ah
[ND]Borc: we have an embassy with GS i think
vondrack: anyway - look your lands over and see if there are any urgent worker jobs you might utilize industrial workers for
Panzer32: but youre at war
vondrack: we might be able to send some over
vondrack: and do whatever you might need
vondrack: not that we would have SO MANY surplus workers, but if there was a real need, we could lend you a hand
vondrack: the pyramids help here...
MasterZen: brb
* MasterZen is now known as MZ|AFK
[ND]Zayxus: For ND near Trippolis workers would be useful
vondrack: how many?
[ND]Zayxus: as much as possible, I did not calculate.
vondrack: we could send 2 quite soon...
[ND]Zayxus: would be great, clearing jungle is a hard job
vondrack: but still, ~10 turns to get to you
vondrack: we will keep that in mind
[ND]Zayxus: please
[ND]Borc: i would prefer 2 workers near marlowa and Fort dreizack - we can defend them better there
[ND]Borc: and hide them
vondrack: it would be up to you to tell us where to deploy them
vondrack: one thing to keep in mind, please
[ND]Zayxus: yes?
vondrack: we are not having any "spare workers"
vondrack: we could use them for ourselves as well
vondrack: so request them only for urgent tasks, please
[ND]Zayxus: ND keeps that in mind
vondrack: good
vondrack: next point:
vondrack: CATAPULTS
vondrack: any need for them?
vondrack: it would be possible to arrange a "capture"
Panzer32: I don't think GoW has any need at this time; only if GS were to invade our lands
[GoW]Donegeal: what bout sending them to the capital and giving them away? sure they loose some effecive ness, but then cost is free and they are where they are needed immediatly...
[GoW]Donegeal: whoops... I type slow....
* Tiberius has joined #gow_cofa
* vondrack sets mode: +o Tiberius
Tiberius: Hi everybody. Little late for the party
MZ|AFK: panzer: GS might well invade
vondrack: we will need a city on Bob to be able to do that (trade workers)
[GoW]Donegeal: not after Astro...
vondrack: really?
[GoW]Donegeal: yep...
vondrack: but the would lose their industriality anyway
vondrack: *they
vondrack: for ND, I mean
vondrack: I assume you have your land well developed
vondrack: being industrious, too
[ND]Zayxus: RP has some cities with 7 people, it means 50% Bonus, could to be cracked down by catapults
vondrack: that's why I did not offer the same to you
Panzer32: no, GoW's land developement sucks
vondrack: ah... then we can trade, of course
[GoW]Donegeal: free labor right now would be a good thing...
[ND]Borc: if we cant take zaragossa we could use catapults but we ill see this very soon
vondrack: ok - it's still something we would not be able to provide immediately anyway
[ND]Borc: we hit them hard at zaragossa even without catas
vondrack: just keep in mind that we are open to this
vondrack: well... I think I am running short of "points"
Panzer32:
vondrack: I would like to stress one thing a lot:
[ND]Borc: yes, thx... anyway ND will not have the time to build catas so the offer is interesting (for later...)
vondrack: do NOT give GS/RP any hints that we have joined the war
[GoW]Donegeal: its sorta like the US in WWII... they keep giving all this stuff and help to GB but keep saying "We're Nutral!"
vondrack: whatever
Panzer32: yes. No hints
[ND]Borc: ... and the phone again ... sorry !
vondrack: we are deliberately staying out of the flames in the public forums
vondrack: *forums
Panzer32: I guess I can't go tell GS all the secrets like I was planning to, yes?
[ND]Zayxus: No hints, by ND.
vondrack: @ Panzer
Tiberius: We don't want to say we're neutral. We only want tu use at max the element of surprise
vondrack: right - we are concerned about someone spilling the beans too early
vondrack: there is nothing to gain by it and possible a lot to lose
vondrack: one more thing - could we arrange a regular weekly chat?
Panzer32: I guess you could join us in our GoW-ND chats
vondrack: always at this time?
Panzer32: yes
vondrack: ok
vondrack: btw - it would be nice to get news from the front occasionally
vondrack: like how many GS troops you spotted etc.
Panzer32: well GoW has 14 riders on the tile East of Toledo
Tiberius: not bad
vondrack: right
vondrack: any GS troops in sight?
MZ|AFK: knight in Toledo
* MZ|AFK is now known as MasterZen
Panzer32: we see a fortified knight in Toledo (walls)
MasterZen: we don't know of course if there's more...
Panzer32: might be lots more though
Tiberius: are you (GoW) focusing now on RP or on GS?
vondrack: yeah...
Panzer32: right now, GS
MasterZen: whoever gets in our way, Tiberius
Panzer32: because thats where we are ATM
[GoW]Donegeal: Targets of Oppertunity
Tiberius: kill'em all
vondrack: btw - GS told us they would be giving New Madrid back to RP very soon (1-2 turns)
[ND]NeMeSiS: sorry guys i have to leave now
[ND]NeMeSiS: bye
vondrack: bye
MasterZen: cya
Tiberius: bue
Panzer32: oh, really?
[GoW]Donegeal: really?....
Tiberius: bye
MasterZen: did they ever tell you why they gifted it?
[ND]Borc: bye
* [ND]NeMeSiS has quit IRC (Quit: )
MasterZen: it seems a bit strange to me since its not a port, and the city itself does not impede movement by roads to Toledo
vondrack: they say they wanted to establish a base inside the RP territory
Tiberius: +troop movements
Panzer32: thats good news for us; maybe we can get it during the changeover or at least before RP is fortified
[GoW]Donegeal: they need the port...
vondrack: which was only possible by transferring the ownership of N.M.
MasterZen: NM isn't a port
[GoW]Donegeal: no?
Panzer32: nope look at it
vondrack: right - the port has been founded very close to N.M. I assume
MasterZen: what? a new city?
[GoW]Donegeal: oh... so it isn't....
vondrack: they would have to declare war to be able to do it otherwise
vondrack: yes, a new city
vondrack: expect it on the coast
[ND]Borc: i understand :-/
vondrack: prolly on a hill
vondrack: NE of the cattle, maybe?
Panzer32: probably SE-SE of NM
Panzer32: or there, yes
[GoW]Donegeal: Barcelona! I bet RP will gift Barcelona!
Panzer32: its their only harbour Don
Panzer32: also its not 1 turn crossings for GS
vondrack: anyway - just thought you might wish to know...
[GoW]Donegeal: what do they need a harbor for?
MasterZen: trade iron?
Panzer32: squid
vondrack: maybe iron...
vondrack: ok, gentleman - anything else, anyone?
Panzer32: yeah
vondrack: shoot
Panzer32: hmm Civ just fatal errored me
vondrack: heh
MasterZen: a GS conspiracy...
Panzer32: are you making sistine currently
vondrack: switching to it this turn
Panzer32: how many turns until you finish?
vondrack: errr... let's make it this way: after we establish the embassy with you, we tell you if there is a problem, ok?
vondrack: I do not think wonder builds are necessarily a subject of this military alliance
[ND]Borc:
vondrack: btw - just to make sure we all know this: we have a no-Sistine clause with both of you
Panzer32: ok - we plan on speeding it up from what you see to time better with invention
vondrack: ok, fine
vondrack: plus - the GA, I assume...
Panzer32: yes, the GA will speed it up
vondrack: good
vondrack: will PM you
Panzer32: k
vondrack: anything else?
vondrack: Borc?
vondrack: Zayxus?
Panzer32: I have some stuff to discuss with ND
Panzer32: but that can wait
[ND]Zayxus: don't see to discuss more now.
vondrack: right - if there is nothing more, Lego shall leave now, ok?
MasterZen: great having you here
vondrack: our pleasure
vondrack: good luck to all of us
[ND]Zayxus: This was an interesting chat.
[ND]Borc: tankk you all! and sorry for beeing so busy,,,
MasterZen: I know we'll need it...
vondrack: yes, a lot of stuff done
vondrack: yes, we will need it
[ND]Zayxus: Let us continue.
[ND]Zayxus: Next week?
Panzer32: yes
vondrack: yes, next week at latest
[ND]Borc: can we have the log file again?
vondrack: sure, I can email it to you
vondrack: email addy?
Tiberius: next week = next turn, probably
[ND]Borc: great! neudemogyptica@cylusion.com
vondrack: k
[ND]Zayxus: yes, an chat copy as mail, thank you
[ND]Borc: this mail forwards everything to th 4 consuls of nd

[Tiberius]

One thing we forgot to ask from them: one or two turns before we land on Bob, we will need both GoW's and ND's world map. The reason is obvious. Given the fact that this is an alliance where everybody gives whatever he can for the common cause, I don't think they should ask for anything in return (and they definitely don't need our WM).

[Sharpe]

The Lego team has been discussed in several of the last posts in that GoW ultimatum "Glory of Manifestos" thread.

Particularly, UnOrthodox mentions that Lego felt that it couldn't receive RP cities due to its NAP.

Furthermore, Shiber finds that suspicious and wonders how we were "bullied" into such a NAP. (Though he later expresses how he respects how Lego and ND have played the game so far)

And finally, a discussion of how Lego is incapable of doing anything until Astronomy is discovered.

[ZargonX]

And finally, a discussion of how Lego is incapable of doing anything until Astronomy is discovered

Funny thing about that, eh?

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Sharpe
Furthermore, Shiber finds that suspicious and wonders how we were "bullied" into such a NAP.
And finally, a discussion of how Lego is incapable of doing anything until Astronomy is discovered.

Here's the quote:

Don't fool yourself, Lego is incapable of actively and efficiently warring with GoW on Bob until Astronomy.
I also find it curious... that Lego let themselves be bullied into a NAP in the first place.

You can't imagine how difficult was to me not to respond: "Good. The fact that you think so is just perfect. The bigger your surprise will be !"

[vondrack]

Exactly my feelings. I trashed two already written posts.

[vondrack]

Not sure where to put this, but this thread is probably the best one. I have dropped into the GoW/ND regular chat to quickly check what's new...

Session Start: Thu Aug 07 20:25:45 2003
Session Ident: #gow_cofa
* Now talking in #gow_cofa
vondrack: hello
Panzer32: Hi Vondrack!
* YenKo looks at donegeal
vondrack: sorry for being late
[ND]Borc: i think we should take them for the south... we had losses there!
Donegeal: um... anybody want to claim him?
[ND]Borc: hi vondrak!
vondrack: I ate something bad and my stomach aches like hell
Panzer32: we were just discussing current military stuff
vondrack: ok, go ahead - I will listen for the moment
Panzer32: Darekill: about the Ansars - I think we can handle up north for the moment
Donegeal: yeah... I think you will need them more against GS knights...
[ND]Darekill: good the more we have in the south the sooner we can send a bunch of them wherever you want them to be.
[ND]Darekill: The BASF wil beat all the Warchicken.
Panzer32: so thats pretty much it for GoW military
[ND]Borc: vondrack: btw: we had a 10:0 poll result: our parliament wants you to land
vondrack:
vondrack: I know
vondrack: NeMeSiS PMed me
Panzer32: oh, between 3-6 turns from now we get 6 more riders, probably more with our GA
[ND]Darekill: We try to hold Fort Löwenmut (Leon) long enough to soften up the spanish Attacks.
vondrack: how bad you losses were, Darekill?
vondrack: you went from average to weak vs. us...
[ND]Darekill: Then if we can we try to capture their Catas
vondrack: and how much is left of that Spanish superstack?
* Panzer32 sets mode: +oo vondrack YenKo
[ND]Darekill: We have lost two Ansar and two Pikes
Donegeal: but you kept the city?
[ND]Darekill: But we'll replace them
[ND]Darekill: Yes we kept it.
vondrack: great news!
Donegeal:
vondrack: and the stack? Spanish losses?
[ND]Darekill: the stack is pretty beaten now.
vondrack: congratulations!
Donegeal:
[ND]Darekill: they lost four Med. infs and two Pikes already.
vondrack: that's cool
vondrack: from our side - there is little news
[ND]Darekill: the Med. Infs there are at one Points two point s only two ar more then three point
vondrack: ...everything goes pretty much along the lines discussed last week
vondrack: we are doing our best to start ferrying troops
[ND]Darekill: But there are still six full power Pikes and a lot of Catapults...
vondrack: there has been one concern in our forum which I would like to mention here
vondrack: Lego would like to hold the first units that will land behind (unless there is a real emergence) and wait until we assemble a stack of ~15 knights
vondrack: we believe that engaging with 3-6 units would make little difference
vondrack: may I have your ideas on where you would need our units?
[ND]Darekill: that is hard to tell right now. because we don'T know how things will look in 15 turns.
vondrack: of course
vondrack: so, let me give our idea, ok?
Panzer32: well it would be nicest if Sirocco was taken out first so they can't ferry troops but that will be very hard to do
Panzer32: go ahead
[ND]Borc: if gs knights get through our home land then tis will be the emergence case, right?
vondrack: we would be ferrying troops to Bob and then move them to approximately the center of your homelands
vondrack: where they would gather
vondrack: they would be ready to counter any surprise landings by GS
vondrack: and would engage GS on the main front only after reaching some ~15 units
Panzer32: so womewhere in northern ND territory?
vondrack: just a sec, I will look at the save
Donegeal: Vond.. I was wondering what was the FA front looking like with you and GS?
vondrack: will answer - just a sec
vondrack: ok, troops positioning:
vondrack: perhaps somewhere in the Macao-Skulgaria-Thordoba triangle? (not sure where there are roads there)
Panzer32: here is a suggestion:
vondrack: ok, go ahead
Panzer32: If you put the stack on the tile E-S of Macao it can reach Port Isolation in 2 turns
Panzer32: It also has many links through ND territory
vondrack: yes, that's within the area I was thinking about
vondrack: sounds good
vondrack: diplo front:
Panzer32: right. Also its close to 1 source of ND iron to sort of guard it if it comes to that
vondrack: ok
vondrack: diplo:
vondrack: we had our regular chat with GS on Monday
vondrack: I did my best to confuse them like hell
vondrack: we made it very clear that if they get involved in a major way on Bob
vondrack: they will have to face us, too
Donegeal: do they think that you are staying neutral?
Donegeal: oh....
vondrack: I do not think they believe we would stay neutral
vondrack: I was very specific about this
vondrack: it was kinda "last warning"
Panzer32: this of course might mean that they won't accept any more RP cities
Panzer32: I think they just want to keep the ones they have currently
Donegeal: well... with stacks of 6 knights roaming around on Bob and them holding several cities, I think they are involved in a major way on Bob...
vondrack: ...they knew how we meant it
vondrack: OTOH:
* YenKo has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving )
vondrack: I made it sound like it was a serious diplomatic warning
vondrack: and dropped a few lines to indirectly indicate we were not really doing anything yet
Donegeal: but the Astro deal is still going to go through...
vondrack: re: Astro deal
vondrack: it probably is, but I can feel they may be looking for ways to delay it
vondrack: they are giving gold to RP to keep them fighting
vondrack: and their economy is unable to fund everything
vondrack: they seem to be worried about us stopping tech trades with them
Donegeal: hmmm... sounds more like they are involved on Bob in a major way...
vondrack: my impression was that they are still looking for ways how to make us remain neutral
vondrack: donegeal - I consider that a major involvement, too, naturally
[ND]Borc: brb
vondrack: that's why we will give no more warnings
Donegeal: if we embargo against GS, there is NO WAY they can keep up with us techwise
Panzer32: thats what we plan to do, Don
vondrack: and that's why we do not condition our help to you in any way
* Donegeal goes to check his logs again, feeling a bit embarassed for not knowing...
vondrack: Don - Astro is the last tech going to them
vondrack: to keep the cover as long as possible
Panzer32: Now, you said GS might delay Astro deal...
vondrack: yes - since the deal is Astro for Banking
vondrack: and they seem to be slower with Banking then we with Astro
vondrack: than *us...
Panzer32: if they delay enough, will you cut the deal (ie they see your troops)
vondrack: I do not think they will delay it THAT much
Panzer32: ok :P
vondrack: they should be done ~3 turns after us - at least that's my understanding
vondrack: I honestly cannot answer the last question (on cutting the deal)
vondrack: that would have to be discussed within our team
Donegeal: does that mean that you are going to delay giving us the tech by that many turns?
* Donegeal shrugs.
Donegeal: not like we need it.
vondrack: nope - that has nothing to do with it
vondrack: if they delay the trade, they will not be able to pose 'surprised' by the fact we trade with others
vondrack: and we are deliberately making it very clear that we do NOT side with them
Donegeal: there is no talk of a "no-trade clause?
vondrack: so even giving you the techs might not blow the cover too much... it would be just another "reminder" for them to back off
vondrack: NDAs are part of the contract
vondrack: eternal NDAs, AFAIK
vondrack: Astro is ours, Banking is theirs
Donegeal: so what do you do if they do "back off"?
vondrack: well, if they do "back off", I guess you will be able to handle them on your own
vondrack: but it is Lego to decide
Donegeal: NDA?
vondrack: if they did back off or not
vondrack: you mean - what do we do about the NDA?
Donegeal: no... what is it
vondrack: Non-Disclosure Agreement
Donegeal: Non-Disclosure?
vondrack: yes
vondrack: no-trade clause
vondrack: everybody calls it different
Donegeal: isn't talking about it with us a "disclosure"?
vondrack: ummm... we understand it as a "non-trade clause"
Panzer32: that means they can't tell us about the trade AFTER the NDA is agreed to
Donegeal: hahahahaha
Panzer32: well thats what happened to GoW once
vondrack: hm, I may be wrong about this NDA stuff - but hell, I don't care...
vondrack: I suppose I am not legally allowed to plot an alliance against them either...
vondrack:
Panzer32:
* Donegeal shrugs again.
Panzer32: anything else to discuss?
vondrack: just re-read the trade agreement... NDA=no-trade clause, I am sure
vondrack: not from our side, I think
Donegeal: so you can't trade Banking, even if you go to war with GS?
vondrack: correct... as long as we honour the treaty
Panzer32: get vox to get it for you
Panzer32: err. for us
vondrack: yes - that was one thing I was thinking of
vondrack: the other one - do we really need banking to win this war?
vondrack: I mean... anyone planning to build a bank any time soon?
Panzer32: just a warning about the Vox situation here:
vondrack: yes?
Panzer32: make sure to not just let them be the tech brokers that give you everything from other civs
vondrack: no worries - that's not the case
Panzer32: when Vox had lux in its palm, we were working out a deal with both
Panzer32: then Vox quits negotiations and we get all angry with Vox
vondrack: yes, I think I know the story
Panzer32: and we send them a simple note
Panzer32: then the next turn Lux is gone :/
vondrack: yeah...
Panzer32: ... for those who didn't know
vondrack: don't worry about our relationship with Vox
vondrack: that has been taken care of
vondrack: they are not going to interfere
vondrack: they were specifically asked to lay low
[ND]Zayxus: 12 Building a Bank? Now in a war? No.
vondrack:
Panzer32: same for GoW
vondrack: yeah - that's why I think the NDA on Banking is not a big deal ATM
Donegeal: they are going to be stronger in Legos Minor than they were in Estonia...
vondrack: probably, yes
vondrack: but not by much
vondrack: the terrain there is horrible
Panzer32: yeah
Panzer32: they'll have to work mainly coastline
vondrack: yep - and no fresh water either
vondrack: but still... they can be a fine researcher, given time
[ND]Zayxus: 12 Harbors, Aequaducts? Hard work.
[ND]Darekill: after this war I think we can find a way to end the demogame entirely.
vondrack: we will see...
vondrack: I made myself clear in the public forum
vondrack: in the "fun?" thread...
vondrack: ok - if there is nothing else, I'd probably leave now... not feeling well today
[ND]Darekill: I' know...
Panzer32: I don't have anything more to discuss
[ND]Darekill: Nothing from our side.
vondrack: ok, gentlemen - have a good night then!
* Donegeal has quit IRC (Quit: )
[ND]Darekill: good night.
[ND]Zayxus: thx, you also
Session Close: Thu Aug 07 21:12:32 2003

I made it clear we did not want our troops to become involved in combat until strong enough to actually make a difference. Both teams seemed happy to keep LEF as a reserve force (Panzer suggested the tile S-E of Macao, which sounded fine to me).

Few bits of info on the battle of Leon (ND did well, it seems)... and that's it. Nothing major this time.

[ZargonX]

Good chat, Vondrack. They've given us the go ahead, with no quotas on what to bring in. And keeping their backs covered for them should let them fight more effectively in the front. I guess they are still worried about the Astro deal, but we can figure that out on our own.

Oh, and hope your stomach feels better!

And, just picture this... GS thinks they're being all clever, sending a shipment of troops around the north, and trying to sneak into GoW's backside while they are occupied in the south. The stack lands, and suddenly a blazing storm of plastic knights tears them apart as soon as they hit the ground. Can you imagine the looks on GS' faces

[vondrack]

Originally posted by ZargonX
And, just picture this... GS thinks they're being all clever, sending a shipment of troops around the north, and trying to sneak into GoW's backside while they are occupied in the south. The stack lands, and suddenly a blazing storm of plastic knights tears them apart as soon as they hit the ground. Can you imagine the looks on GS' faces

Yeah, feathers will be everywhere...

But seriously - I just hope our plastic knights are there in time...

[lmtoops]

I fully approve of this plan and the Bob landing site.