The Bob War

[Kloreep]

This war is becoming a game turning point. I think it's also going to sprawl across all the correspondance threads if a thread isn't started.

First off, I want to comment on GoW's new statement of devotion to Lego: I think it's worth as much as the electrons it's made of, even if they themselves don't realize that. The only case in which I see this actually meaning anything is if Lego intervenes on Bob, but fails to stop GS getting some expansion room. This would mean disaster for ND and GoW and would eliminate their chances of winning the game; they'd be in complete revenge mode and would be very good Vox-style junior allies. If, however, we don't intervene, I don't see much chance of their pro-Lego stance remaining; if we do intervene and GoW and ND wipe out RP, they still have a chance at the game, and so while we might not be their next target after RP, that's pretty much all the benefit I see in the intervention + strong ND and GoW circumstance. In short, let's not start thinking they are our game-long allies...

However, that said, we definitely need to tip the balance back to ND + GoW. This is a sticky situation as far as our GS relations go, as we essentially gave them a thumbs-up for intervening on Bob; we really should have argued against direct intervention in hindsight. Oh well; what's done is done, and we can just reverse our position. We need to get GS off Bob or at least confined, that is definite.

BTW, anyone else find it funny this momentous war is happening just as the game date is about to switch to AD?

[lmtoops]

This is a tough decision to make. The safest path is to continue a semi-isolationism. We can support both sides and let them hammer away at each other. Meanwhile we continue to build our empire. Of course we run the risk of one team (GS most likely) dominating the war and coming out much more powerful.

I take it back, the safest path is doing what I stated above and .... secretly building a very strong, invasion ready army. My hope would be that the army is not used, but in case things start going bad on Bob, we can get involved.

I would continue with the Defensive Army plan (proposed by Vondrack and approved) on the East coast and in strategic areas. Delay the West Coast part of the plan and build the offensive army instead.

In any case, it's bed time....Leo

[Sharpe]

Some observations from the 10bc save:

ND has been cut off from both of its iron sources except for their Vigo city - I would imagine that is ND's next target perhaps or Zaragoza to cut off their horses.

GS can trade iron to RP though - watch next turn to see if that is the case.

Hmm GS gave RP their Inchon city? Rather unusual isn't it? Especially as there isn't any ROP agreement between them...

[ZargonX]

Recent public discussion seems to indicate that GoW, ND, and GS have all teamed up vs. RP. I'm going to try and do some digging to find out what the **** is going on over there. If GoW is scared of GS, allying with them and letting them take Spanish cities isn't really the best way to go about things, I would think...

[Kloreep]

In a chat with GS today, DeepO declined to disclose what the Inchon gifting was about. It struck me that was probably a stack jump to the Eye of the Storm, like the Voxodus on a smaller scale.

Whether this was just a speedup of a small stack or if it was a major shift of forces, we can't know.

[Sharpe]

I suspect that GS is preparing for an invasion into the eastern sections of initially ND then GoW to grab large sections of Bob.

[Sharpe]

In case anyone is interested - the known world consists of:

Bob - 677 squares
Mystery Isle - 18 squares
Legos Major - 353 squares
New Vox - 83 squares
Stormia - 200 squares

Total known land squares = 1331

NOTE: My count might be a little off as I was going fairly quickly - but no more than 20 or 30 squares max if even that...

Needed land squares for domination victory - 70% of 1331 = 932 squares PLUS 70% of world's population

Percentage of known world land squares in Legos Major - 353/1331 = 26.52%

Percentage of known world land squares in Legos Major and New Vox (Legos Minor) (353+83=436)/1331 = 32.75%

Bob/Borconia + Stormia + Mystery Isle = 895 - amount needed in addition to this 37 squares ! .... (Yikes that is too close...)

[Tiberius]

Should GS conquer entire Bob, the game is over anyway, domination or not ...

[redstar1]

We need to ensure that if GS does come a-knocking, the Bob civs won't just lay down and raze cities before them. We need them to pack those cities with units to hurt GS as much as possible.

[Tiberius]

It is about time to establish a roadmap regarding our actions on Bob.

1. How many GS cities we would tolerate on Bob?
2. If GS will not retreat, what immediate actions we can take? Embargo against GS, or only (moral+tech+economic) support to ND+GoW?
3. War preparations. When, where, with how many units, our military objective?
4. Finally, we must work on an official Lego opinion about the whole thing. We will be asked, probably sooner than later.

[Tiberius]

Let's see:

Decision:
2 or 3 GS cities on Bob would be the max we could accept, I think.

Actions:
nr. 1: announce GS about our decision through the private channels and then make our position public; make part of the public announcement that we don't support the war against RP
nr. 2: tech+economic support to ND+GoW, as much as it's possible, without hindering our development and military upgrades. This part is tricky, because they can use our help against RP, too. Must be careful in doing this.
nr. 3: Luxury+tech embargo against GS, obviously without breaking signed treaties and agreements between us. No declaration of war yet.
nr. 4: sending the military (only if GS gains too much terrain and ND and GoW asks for it). The purpose of our military actions would be a) destroy GS cities on Bob if possible; b) weaken its military; c) cut of their supply lines. This part should be kept secret.

[Tiberius]

Radek, if you don't mind, I copied your post from the GoW thread here.

Here is what I believe we shall do:

1) PM or chat with GS - make it very clear that with accepting New Madrid, they and RP crossed the line between what we consider "balancing the power" on Bob and what we perceive as a full scale, aggressive invasion of Bob. Tell them we now believe RPers have decided to more or less resign from the game (New Madrid was one of the best RP production centers), giving whatever is left to them to GS. We do not see this as acceptable.

2) Depending on how GS responds, we shall either make our stance public or continue the negotiations privately, perhaps trying to arrange a "limited war", guaranteeing we would not attack their homeland in exchange for them not attacking us on Legos. If they accept, fine, if not, fine, too.

I am going to draft a message to GS. Will post it ASAP for comments.

Yep, this is what I was talking about. PM or chat with GS and prepare in the same time a public announcement; however don't post it yet.

[Tiberius]

perhaps trying to arrange a "limited war", guaranteeing we would not attack their homeland in exchange for them not attacking us on Legos.

Hmm, I don't know. This is equal to letting them know that we will attack them On Bob. I thought this should be a suprise. We ought to scare them with an embargo and support for ND+GoW and keep the military plans secret.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Let's see:

Decision:
2 or 3 GS cities on Bob would be the max we could accept, I think.

With taking New Madrid, the line has already been crossed in my eyes. Not only they are now having three cities on Bob, but the TREND is simply too dangerous. If RPers are willing to gift one of their "core" cities (and New Madrid WAS on of their core cities) to GS, then I am no longer willing just to watch.

Originally posted by Tiberius
Actions:
nr. 1: announce GS about our decision through the private channels and then make our position public; make part of the public announcement that we don't support the war against RP

Agreed. See my post in the GoW thread. Just that I would not rush with public announcements. Have it ready, yes, but hold it until there is need/proper time. I would consider it bad manners to post such an announcement before letting GS know through diplo channels.

Originally posted by Tiberius
nr. 2: tech+economic support to ND+GoW, as much as it's possible, without hindering our development and military upgrades. This part is tricky, because they can use our help against RP, too. Must be careful in doing this.

Well... if they use it against RP, their problem.... The treaty we have with RPers prevents us from directly attacking RPers and "joining any wars against" RP, but not from supporting civs that are at war with someone else.

Originally posted by Tiberius
nr. 3: Luxury+tech embargo against GS, obviously without breaking signed treaties and agreements between us. No declaration of war yet.

Yep, agreed. If GS responds negatively to our note, terminate the lux deal (not a big deal for us). I would honour the Astro/Bank deal, but if they wish to cancel, I would not mind (as Astro is a strategic tech, while Banking is not).

Originally posted by Tiberius
nr. 4: sending the military (only if GS gains too much terrain and ND and GoW asks for it). The purpose of our military actions would be a) destroy GS cities on Bob if possible; b) weaken its military; c) cut of their supply lines. This part should be kept secret.

Now this is something I do not completely agree with. I believe we should start moving our troops to Bob NOW. With the limited capacity of our fleet, we will need some time to get those knights and mercs over to Bob. If we start only when GoW & ND get into troubles, it will be too late. I would suggest starting NOW, assembling a decent force in the GoW or ND rear. That way, we will be able to strike IMMEDIATELY if GS succeeds in their counteroffensive.

To this effect, we need to talk to ND and GoW:

1) We need an embassy with GoW - should be established this turn.
2) We need RoP with both of them - should be offered this turn.
3) We need them to agree to our troops starting to gather at a designated place in GoW or ND territory, somewhere quite far from the front line and from the sights of GS troops. This assumes some trust from their side, of course. I would ask them to pinpoint the location.
4) Make sure they understand our forces will engage GS and GS only.

[Sharpe]

Perhaps it is time for an "unofficial" response in the Manifesto thread by one of us (not Zargon or Vondrack as that would be considered official by the teams). Indicate that this is your personal view and not necessarily the view of Legoland (others have used this trick, why shouldn't we...)

One thing to include in this "unofficial" response for certain would be to indicate that it is felt that Legoland cannot stand off this issue any further; but the team is divided as how to deal with it (would give us some wiggle room for our "official" response).

Feel free otherwise to list our grievances against RP, our waryness in GS's intervention on Bob, and perhaps a little history of our relations with the other civs. Perhaps also reveal the differences between how GoW and ND dealt with our map situation and how RP constantly demanded our map in uneven trades to their benefit...

Perhaps it is also time to reveal what ND told us about GS wanting an anti-Lego alliance, and that we also know about RP's manuevering against us in the past.

Re our official response - we should inform GS that they are crossing the line and we would regard an invasion of GoW or ND's core areas as a territory grab and thus unacceptable to Legoland.