Foreign Affairs Consulate: Gathering Storm

[Hot_Enamel]

I still think we will have to send peace and gold each turn. Anything else, and no one will trust us for a gpt payment ever again.

Plus, it separates us from the war, if it ever goes pair shaped. We can claim that we had no interest in the war, other than the sale of the horsemen with which Vox could do as they wish.

We met all of our repayments with GS in full and on time, and please dont kill us now that you have destroyed Vox.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I never agree to GPT deals unless I'm going to war with the idiots anyway so I could care less if anyone offers us a GPT deal.

If we agree to accept one IT SHOULD be considered a sign we are getting ready to declare war on you.

[Hot_Enamel]

We have a new ambassador

Hot_Enamel,
Since i'm taking a trip to the US and will be back in 20 days- Shiber has taken my seat as ambassador to GoW. Please contact him about our latest offers.

Zeit

[Master Zen]

Chat with Shiber

I had a chat with Shiber of GS a few hours ago, I had posted it here but I made a new thread instead so it gets more attention

-MZ

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83035

[Hot_Enamel]

Caught Shiber on line

Session Start: Wed Apr 09 22:08:59 2003
[22:09] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Hey
[22:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Anything interesting been happening ?
[22:12] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I am away from my keyboard for 20 minutes - will check in periodically
[22:19] [Shiber] I am drafting a diplomatic message to you at the moment; I will get back to you shortly. If you wish to chat right now, please say so, as I'm always glad to engage in conversation with members of your team.
[22:43] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Well - I am back --
[22:44] [Shiber] Welcome back
[22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I dont have much to tell you
[22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] The Vox thing is badly timed
[22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We have been discussing iron trade on the forum
[22:44] [Shiber] Yes, it's such a shame; I understand that you were preparing to strike at ND.
[22:45] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Not that I am aware of ?
[22:45] [Shiber] I trust that you have adequate forces to protect Port of Isolation, though.
[22:45] [Shiber] Oh, then maybe I was fed with rumors... lol
[22:45] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Yep - We are not afraid of Vox - We have plenty of troops available
[22:46] [Shiber] One of your members told me recently that you want to upgrade some troops along the ND border.
[22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] UPgrades yes
[22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Attack no ... not yet
[22:46] [Shiber] Then I must have made the wrong conclusions
[22:46] [Shiber] I've also been told that you fear that as soon as either team gets their UU, a war would break out
[22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But we always have war plans ...
[22:46] [Shiber] Yes, you must justify your team's name!
[22:47] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Oh Yes- ND's UU is certainly worrying for us
[22:47] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], there is something we should talk about.
[22:47] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have nothing - Are you prepared for Vox ?
[22:48] [Shiber] Some of my teammates have raised suspicions that Vox's 2nd invasion was just a ruse that was coordinated with your team.
[22:48] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Why would we do that ?
[22:48] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I see no advantage in us doing that
[22:48] [Shiber] I trust GoW, which proved to be very honest in the past, but I'm having a hard time convincing my teammates.
[22:49] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], frankly, neither do I; but when war breaks out, people get paranoid.
[22:49] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Since ND changed leaders...I am no longer forwarded the sav...so I have not seen it
[22:49] [Shiber] A screenshot of Vox's invasion force would surely alleviate our worries, though.
[22:49] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But unless som eof our members are also lieing in our forums ????
[22:49] [Shiber] Please don't misinterpret this as an attempt to blackmail you for intelligence
[22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Nope thats ok - We are just better prepared for them this time
[22:50] [Shiber] We just want reassurance.
[22:50] [Shiber] That's good to hear!!
[22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Last time, they had a settler & a city
[22:50] [Shiber] We were actually worried that Port of Isolation might return to Voxian hands
[22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That will never happen
[22:51] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That city, would allow them to transfer troops city to city, and attack on the same round
[22:51] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Very dangerous
[22:51] [Shiber] Can you please provide my team with a screenshot?
[22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I will see ... You know how GF feels about that
[22:52] [Shiber] I fully understand
[22:52] [Shiber] I don't expect a screenshot, but I don't expect to convince my teammates without one
[22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sure - I will ask
[22:52] [Shiber] Anyway, negotiations between ourselves can continue as usual.
[22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That is excellent
[22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have been trying to get GoW to discuss an iron trade
[22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But war plans have got everyone excited
[22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And it got pushed aside
[22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And I have been RL busy
[22:53] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], that's one of the things that could be affected by our suspicions. In the past few hours some have been saying that "we shouldn't give GoW anything", which I find appalling, but that's the reality I have to deal with.
[22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I need to clarify this ...
[22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] GoW, has iron
[22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But its position is easily overrun by ND if they wisg
[22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] wish
[22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We want a back up supply only
[22:54] [Shiber] Oh, I've forgot that you've already told us that.
[22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We dont trust ND
[22:55] [Shiber] Yes, we can certainly be your back-up source, at least as far as I'm concerned.
[22:55] [Shiber] We just have to keep a good relationship going on
[22:55] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent...I posted my suggestions today on our forum....but no one has said yay or nay
[22:55] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] No probs ... Can you handle Vox
[22:57] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And the Fuedalsim trade ... GF has been handling that...I think we are going to offer you gpt...We need the cash for upgrades
[22:58] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], we are more than prepared.
[22:58] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent
[22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We have no plans on invading Vox...our horsemen would be slaughtered
[22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But if you need any help ... just say
[22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Vox is not our best friend at the moment
[23:00] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We kinda screwed them on the port isolation deal
[23:00] [Shiber] lol
[23:00] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], is GoW researching anything at the moment?
[23:01] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I dont think so.... We need to upgrade...and I think we are going to buy Fuedalism from you
[23:01] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], then you must be making a lot of gold from your income if science is set to zero.
[23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I should really check before I say these thingsd
[23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Our forum is not that well organised
[23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I used to just check the sav ... but I cant now
[23:03] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] If GS gets wiped out... We could use some of your teammates
[23:03] [Shiber] lol
[23:03] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Master Zen & Calc have been good ... We needed new blood
[23:05] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Is there anything else you need to bring up ... I will look into getting you a pic ..
[23:06] [Shiber] There's a draft for an interesting diplomatic message in the GS forums. I hope I could send it shortly
[23:06] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sending to who ?
[23:06] [Shiber] to you, silly
[23:06] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I am in bed in about 1 hour .. will I get it before then ?
[23:07] [Shiber] btw, I've been thinking: if we could provide you with Feudalism in a matter of turns (2 or 3) and promise to give you an exclusivity of 5 or 6 or so turns before we would sell it to anyone else (means that you'll be the first to get it for a long duration of time, since we're the only ones researching it), you could hoard gold for several more turns and you'd be able to pay us in cash
[23:07] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], I definitely hope so.
[23:07] [Shiber] In any case, I'll CC it to GhengisFarb.
[23:08] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent Idea .. I am sure we will discuss it .. CC to GF is wise
[23:08] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have a quick question .. Have you been able to build a harbor ?
[23:08] [Shiber] it's been on our build list, but now that Vox have declared war, things may change
[23:08] [Shiber] it's very upsetting, really
[23:09] [Shiber] but maybe we could find the cash to rush it
[23:09] [Shiber] we'd hate to see you get stuck without iron while we are still not prepared to trade
[23:09] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] You must be cashed up .. Ok the harbor thing is is a problem .. I know about that
[23:10] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] My team dont really want to pay you to build one .. But we will see what happens
[23:10] [Shiber] not really, we'll be short on cash, what with the upgrades and all, unless we cease research for a while
[23:10] [Shiber] more info in the diplomatic message
[23:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sure .. I understand... I have been pushing for a wine trade for you...as payment for a harbor & iron backup
[23:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But as I say..The team has been excited about taking on Vox..so it has not gotten a lot of response
[23:13] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] OK - I am heading off - Anything else ?
[23:14] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Good Luck with Vox .. Let us know if you need help ..
[23:15] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], what was that about wine?
[23:16] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] wine for Iron backup maybe......as part of the deal
[23:16] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] It is my recommendation only...definately not approved yet
[23:17] [Shiber] You mean a constant supply of wine in exchange for our expenditures on the harbor, and we'd be obliged to provide you with iron should you lose your source?
[23:17] [Shiber] That could work.
[23:17] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Yep - something like that
[23:17] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] OK - Thats good to know that you are interested...I will push the idea
[23:19] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Well - I got to go - will catch up with you later
[23:19] [Shiber] Alright, cya Hot_Enamel[GoW]!
[23:19] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Bye
Session Close: Wed Apr 09 23:19:55 2003

1. They know that the war was fake. Someone spilled the beans for sure. Either ND or RP (most likely)
Bastards

2. We must make every effort to calm their fears that we are aggressive
I strongly suggest that we offer ...
Constant supply of wine for Iron Backup. (They will accept the wine as "payment" for their harbor build)
I think they do have a harbor...and we just continue with our galleys down their west coast...looking for their harbor.
We claim the galleys include spears & settlers...looking for islands with iron....
We come in peace and tell them to ask lego..we are peacefully circling their continent as well.

3. There is always the chance, that the Vox/GS war is fake, and we have been screwed. GS & Vox are waiting for us to send over our Horsemen, and then attack us. Not a bad idea...but IMO..unlikely.

4. They will have pikes in 3 turns .. Oh dear

[Donegeal]

Their land must be filled with bonus resourses and rivers. They only recently got to the middle age and are already almost dome with feudalism? Either I am right about their land or they are lieing about feudalism (which I hope)

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

There ain't no way I'll agree to give GS anything. Their the big moneybag civ with the triple anyoneelse research rate.

The only transaction I see in their future is in blood. Their blood.

[Hot_Enamel]

Well..The wine deal means nothing really...and just hides our real intentions.

They dont have a harbor..so it cant happen anyway.
And hopefully they will be killed off before it happens.

It's just providing an illusion of friendship, and a reason for our galleys to be sailing south

[Master Zen]

Told you guys we should have donde the whole photoshop pic trick...

why would ND spill the beans? I don't think that would be in their interests. As for RP it might, and I don't doubt it.

[Panzer32]

Deal proposal to Gathering Storm:

We give:
-200 gold. The Gathering Storm will determine the payment type, providing not more than 100 gold goes into the down payment.
-Wines after a trade route is in place
-2 gpt while receiving Iron

They give:
-Feudalism in 2 turns
-Sea RoP to allow our galley to pass through. (I told them we were looking for Iron islands and also would like to scout a trade route).
-Iron if we need it.

[Hot_Enamel]

After scanning the forums...I dont see anywhere we have stated that Vox actually landed and that we actually killed any units.

That being the case...in order to maintain the friendship illusion.. can we tell GS that Vox did not land any units...and therefore cannot provide a pic. It was all verbal, as we waited for then to actually land.

[Panzer32]

Or we could post in the main forum "hurry up and land so that we can kill your units!".

Or we should give up on the illusion now that we are only a few turns away from invading.

[Master Zen]

Permission to speak freely??

They would be REALLY stupid not to get the ruse by now. Vox would be CRAZY to invade Bob AND GS at the same time. Crazy and irrational.

Our ruse worked to catch GS off-guard during the first turns and to give the impression that there was no Vox-GoW alliance. I hope it worked. Now that they are officially at war there's really no reason to expect they are still buying this.

Vox may be crazy but they're not that stupid, to risk national suicide on two futile adventures. GS knows that Vox needs all they have to take them on.

On another note, I think GS is overstating their strength. They are proud strat-forum warriors, their pride will not allow them to seek allies even in the most darkest of situations. Because of that and from what Shiber said in the conversation I don't think they are so near to feudalism as they claim, perhaps 2-3 turns more. I think they're doing this as a display of supposed strength.

Now consider this, the moment one of their WC get's lucky they'll get their golden age. This will speed up greatly their science and production rate. I think they are confident of that and that's why they are seeking to hoard $$ and wait till the GA kicks in.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I don't feel comfortable handing over any $ to GS until they are handing over Feudalism. If Vox takes a few cities whats to prevent them from delaying Feudalism a few more turns?

[Hot_Enamel]

I think it's important that we give ourselves the opportunity "get out of dodge" if this whole thing goes pear shaped.

1. We claim that Vox did not land any troops, but we could see them positioned on their continent. Therefore the war of words was true..maybe Vox used it as a ruse..but certainly not us.

2. We need to name our horsemen invaders Vox#1, #2, #3 etc etc......So that we can further claim the units were "purchased" by Vox, and we had no real interest in the destruction of GS

3. We continue with normal trading relations with GS. This means sending them an gpt offer for fuedalsim. And also offering them wine for iron. The wine for iron is a good idea IMO.
Most likely we will never have to give it to them.
We can have a 5 turn warning exit clause.
It puts them off guard.
Luxeries @ chiefton level are overly rated...you get enough happy people anyway.
And finally, it gives us a reason to send our galleys south..looking for their harbour

4. I also want to ask them, if they are really at war with Vox ...They claimed we were faking it...I want to ask if they are faking it, and are planning to do a joint GD/Vox invasion of GoW. Shiber claims that many of his team dont believe us...I am going to claim many of our team still believe their is a joint GS/Vox alliance.
I want to do this just for fun

Can everyone please let me know their thoughts. I want to send the wine offer tonight. I could do it unofficially, and tell them the deal will still need to be ratified.

Regs