Foreign Affairs Consulate: Gathering Storm

[Aggie]

OPD PM'ed me for ideas on if peace was possible.
Here is my response followed by his to mine.

Response to OPD's PM
"Hi OPD, its strange being on opposite sides of a war from people we used to work so well with in the past.

First off, these are my views and not necessarily those of GOW.

I believe that peace is possible between us. The main item preventing that is the presence of RP on our continent. I do not share this dislike, however many on my team do. Am I correct in assuming that the cities on N. Estonia are the first signs of an RP relocation. If so peace is closer in some ways that earlier.

On the other hand the landing of force near our homeland has complicated matters somewhat. Now I am not suprised at this development(I would have sent the first forces to this area, not the south). However, this event has the potential to change a distant war between nations on foreign soil to a war of national survival and perhaps to world war. Once this line is crossed events become much more complicated. For example, as of now I have not activated plans for an invasion of estonia, obviously I can not allow a potential invasion launch point to go unmolested.

Obviously, East Bob is not vitally important for any other reason than location, just as N Estonia is not vital to GS except for its location. So a war there can not truly be called a war of national survival and it is possible that we can overlook this event and make peace. The problem is that this is my personal view and not that of my team. It is possible that once national pride is insulted, peace will only come at a high price. So on this, I ask you to please reconsider your actions in N Bob, mainly ask yourself "Is the possible gain worth the definite losses and problems caused".

On the real issue though, RP on Bob, I see hope. The question is "how can GS make a peace deal with us and honor their deal with RP". I am a man of honor myself and do not expect you to violate a preexisting agreement. Does the Alliance with them have a time limit(that is reasonably close). If so perhaps we could have a cease fire till then and with the Alliance expired RP would be forced to accept a deal to relocate. Or is the Alliance for the"duration of hostilities". In that case we can simply make peace and then restar the war. In that event GS has honored their agreement and can hold its head high. I mean you have done valiantly and bravely and have endured significant losses with no potential of compensating gains. Lets face it the war gives no real gain for you or us and peace is desirable. All this being said I must stress(as theseus did) that until we have a solid agreement that we will continue all military actions.

After we have peace, then other plans can be made.

Best wishes and good luck
Aggie



Here is a PM of OPD to me for diplomatic purposes.
"OPD's Response to me
"Aggie,

It is a shame we are on opposite sides.

However if we were to reach an agreement I'm sure you'd very much like working with the generals of GS. I find wars like this alot more fun when the odds are in more your favour and am sure you would too.

First of all I do not want to talk about what we are doing, what we will do, what we could do or what you may do as I don't think that would be constructive.
I believe we can make a good and fair agreement without threats or statements about how big millitaries are. There is nothing to gain from such statements or hints, instead we would like to entice you to join us. You stated that you would like RP off you continent. We think it may be possible for this to happen. What else would you like from us?

All I will say is that the flow cannot and will not stop. So from what you say in your pm it is of vital importance that we come to some sort of agreement very quickly.

And now for the good news!!!
As you may be aware Lego have recently contacted us. Their message has given us the opportunity we needed to get close to convincing RP that northern estonia would be the best place for them.

We believe it is possible that RP can agree to a RPodus and so an agreement between our 2 nations is possible. For the great benefit of us and perhaps the demise of everyone else.

We would very much like to know what sort of deal you'd like to make with us, we'd like to split Bob between us and perhaps even make further plans...

What do you say to us entering into a contract with you for the destruction of ND, as a first step?

You may be aware that there are certain people within GS who are untrusting of GoW and therfore we would like assurances that if we leave Bob alone and have us move forward together, that we do not have a risk of losing more than the position we currently have.
Specifically as a token of good will we would ask that technologies be passed from you to us so that there can be no turning back.

hope to hear from you soon

[Hot_Enamel]

I suggest...

Hostilities can only stop if.

1. They remove themselves from Bob

or

2. If they want a presence on Bob, they give us cities on Northern Estonia.

Then we can have serious talks with them about who is the biggest threat in the game, and how we manage their threat.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Specifically as a token of good will we would ask that technologies be passed from you to us so that there can be no turning back.

HELL NO!

They must not get gunpowder. Leave them blissfully in the dark as to where the saltpeter lies.

Frankly, my gut reaction is to negotiate, sure, but refuse this whole peace process in the end. IMO they are in trouble, this invasion is a last ditch effort, and they know it.

After GS is removed we can have our fake war with ND to keep Lego off guard. GS is done, they know it. Let's finish it!

[Aggie]

I agree, the negotiation is only a ruse. I have no intention of any peace except surrender of the unconditional kind. But if we can get them to get RP to vacate the continent, our job is made easier. Effectively that would allow Lego to go full bore into the war, since they have said they will not help us destroy RP, only help us protect against GS. Well, if all the contested cites are GS, they can help us on offense.
Aggie

[UnOrthOdOx]

Can anyone else make it to a chat this evening at 23:00 EST (19:00 PST) (I THINK thats 04:00 GMT)? To speak with GS about this...um 'proposal'

[UnOrthOdOx]

Alright, make yourself comfortable and put on your reading glasses....this is going to take a while.


I sent the following along with forwarding HE's message in the other thread:

I must apologize,

I meant to get back with you yesterday, but I got EXTREMELY sidetracked when I received a shipment of bones.

Yes, bones. I am a bit odd, and have taken to collecting them, in case you didn't notice that over at MZO. However, there were and are inherent difficulties to such a thing as I am discovering. That said, I spent most my free time cleaning and sorting my first shipment yesterday.


I was asked to forward this by a member who was unable to attend the chat:

Again, let me be quite frank and honest.

There are some on the team that harbor some hostility towards GS. I am sure that GS feels the same about us.

Compound that by the fact that this came across, intentional or not, as a threat more than a negotiation with troops sitting outside our cities. We have a history of dealing with teams that threaten us. Lux threatened us, Roleplay threatened us, and we had a way of dealing with them both. We also feel that, while costly, we could win a war to remove GS from off of Bob. Some may have even lost sight of the game due to that fact, frankly.

Now, the majority of the team still wishes to win this game, however. To do that, ND will have to be dealt with at some point. This is our best opportunity to do such a thing, but there are concerns that it only speeds us to a point where Lego/Vox and GS/RP are desiring to end the game against each other.

Currently, we like the proposal on many points. We would certainly prefer to be allowed to destroy Roleplay, but most are willing to concede on that point.

You know...what is sad is that if things had gone as I attempted before this war, we would be have either begun this already, or have been heading to lego by now.

How are things being received in GS? And, when is a good time for a second chat? Friday is out of the question for me. Tomorrow is POSSIBLE, but in general bad. Saturday is certainly my best day, personally. However, any evening both Master Zen and Panzer are usually available and willing to talk, so we can easily defer to your schedule.

[UnOrthOdOx]

This is GS's Response:

UnO, I am going to respond to your 3 PMs all at once. Rather than do the quote thingie or different colors, I am just going to start and end each of my responses with *s (elite* responses that the are! ).

Unfortunately, this makes for a very long missive…. Let me suggest that we not keep adding to each other’s posts in the future, and start to move towards a contract.

Also, please note that this very my own personal response, albeit vetted and edited by rest of active GS.
_________________________

[Reminder: * means from GS, otherwise from GoW]

I must apologize,

I meant to get back with you yesterday, but I got EXTREMELY sidetracked when I received a shipment of bones.

Yes, bones. I am a bit odd, and have taken to collecting them, in case you didn't notice that over at MZO. However, there were and are inherent difficulties to such a thing as I am discovering. That said, I spent most my free time cleaning and sorting my first shipment yesterday.

* Dragon bones, perhaps? *

I was asked to forward this by a member who was unable to attend the chat:

Again, let me be quite frank and honest.

There are some on the team that harbor some hostility towards GS. I am sure that GS feels the same about us.

* Yes, I am very cognizant of this. Things have been quite heated at times, and have veered into the personal. I will be addressing this further below, but let me start with an intensely personal response. I believe in something I call ‘Apolyton Spirit’, which is why I’ve been hanging around this place for almost two years (and this is the only online community in which I participate (well, MZO too , but that’s kind of related)). And, for the Civ3 community here, I like to think that I’ve played a part in maintaining that Spirit… for those on GoW that only know me from DGs, I have been active in the General and Strat forums, especially in helping newer players, and I also founded Apolyton University, which is the most collaborative of such efforts as I am aware. Although I did not found GS, I was and have continued to be one of its biggest recruiters, including especially the many Strat forum posters. The PTWDG was supposed to be FUN, and a learning exercise for the ISDG… in certain ways, it strayed faaaar from Apolyton Spirit, which bums me out. I do not have any hostility towards ANYONE in the PTWDG, and am going forward trying to return the Spirit to the game.*

Compound that by the fact that this came across, intentional or not, as a threat more than a negotiation with troops sitting outside our cities. We have a history of dealing with teams that threaten us. Lux threatened us, Roleplay threatened us, and we had a way of dealing with them both. We also feel that, while costly, we could win a war to remove GS from off of Bob. Some may have even lost sight of the game due to that fact, frankly.

* Two points to address: 1) We felt that we needed both a carrot and a stick in this situation… that may offend, but given the expected resistance, emotional and otherwise, we felt (and feel) that we needed both, sorry. Also, we do need a Plan B!! 2) Yeah, you’re right, there’s no way we can successfully take on both ND and GoW… but neither of us is going to win following that path, rather ND or Lego will.*

Now, the majority of the team still wishes to win this game, however. To do that, ND will have to be dealt with at some point. This is our best opportunity to do such a thing, but there are concerns that it only speeds us to a point where Lego/Vox and GS/RP are desiring to end the game against each other.

* Um… I was sorta thinking GS/GoW/RP against Lego/Vox. Ya ready for this? I’m thinking of RP as a JOINT vassal. Yeah yeah, I’ll get to your relationship(s) later. ( /me is going to get EVISCERATED by the RP players in the post-game review.)*

Currently, we like the proposal on many points. We would certainly prefer to be allowed to destroy Roleplay, but most are willing to concede on that point.

* As was said in the chat, we don’t even have a contract with them… meaning it’s really an emotional response on our part, or a point of honor. BUT… (keep reading).*

You know...what is sad is that if things had gone as I attempted before this war, we would be have either begun this already, or have been heading to lego by now.

* Never too late to get started!! When I broached this path to GS, I was met with disbelief… but now everyone is on board.*

How are things being received in GS? And, when is a good time for a second chat? Friday is out of the question for me. Tomorrow is POSSIBLE, but in general bad. Saturday is certainly my best day, personally. However, any evening both Master Zen and Panzer are usually available and willing to talk, so we can easily defer to your schedule.

* GS absolutely unequivocally without-any-question wants to do this deal. I am not so sure we will have time for another chat, although I can be available later this evening… but we need to go to contract.*

quote:
If this was my PBEM, I would send them something like this before the next chat.

Theseus, we appreciate your upfront attempt at the chat last night.
Unfortunately, our team still has some concerns and grievances that we need to discuss/settle.

*Bring’em on!! *

1. GS broke our NAP. (We can agree to disagree on this matter)

* Agree to disagree.*

2. GS backstabbed us. While we were negotiating a “gangbang” on Roleplay, the forces you were amassing to attack Roleplay was then used against us.

* I’m not gonna agree with ya there either. MORE importantly: it’s water under the bridge… we have grievances too, which I ain’t gonna touch.

3. One of GS’s biggest beef with Vox, was that GS had to waste their entire GA on military to crush Vox. Because of GS’s interference in the Roleplay war, it has taken many more turns and a much bigger military buildup that we expected. Instead of a quick war against RP, the war has been drawn out, and we blame GS for GoW having to waste their GA on military

* Sorry. But, as precedent, we didn’t let that beef get in the way of a cordial Voxodus, did we?*

4. We find it very difficult to believe that your views are a correct reflection of the views from the rest of your team. Anybody can reread the Spite & Malice threads to get an indication of GS’s true perception of GoW. With so much hatred for our team, we find it difficult to believe that you are willing to simple bury the past and work together in the future.

* I truly, truly, truly regret that period of the game and the community… but I also was/am fascinated by it: The degree to which some pretty smart people got wrapped up in an ON-LINE COMMUNITY GAME is simply amazing, especially ‘cause we are talking about Civ, and everything that means about the people involved (needs much more thought, on my behalf at least). Now that things have settled (slowed ) down, I think that the people who are still around can separate the game from the relationships; the best direct analogy I make is watching the original SPDGers in action together in the ISDG… evidently there was some historical rancor, but now it’s like clockwork. In fact, when you think about it, this effort (GS & GoW) is the first attempt to really get past the early MPDG issues (cool!). So, yeah, we’re past it… Wait, I’m not done: There is no hatred for your team. Period.*

5. Have a reread of Vels thread. He has made it quite clear that the game is no longer about winning, but more about honour and rebuilding RP to its former glory. Again, must we just take your word that this is no longer true ?

* Ah, Vel. Um, yeah. Vel is, Vel. Errrrr. What can I say? I love the guy, respect him tremendously, wish he were around more. But he is a bit like a dog with a bone… He had actually never really participated much in GS; I personally have called on him for help when GS was in trouble, and in each case he jumped in with two feet. In re the flame wars, he very creatively took a stance on honor, and went for it with gusto (fer chrissakes, several of us were “blessed” and given titles by Pope Calixtus of Spain!!). Let me re-interpret: We have a self-imposed moral commitment to RP, and will act within those bounds… but that is just one element in how we will play out this game.*

6. Even if you convince us that your current active membership has a different view of GoW, what guarantees do we have that your older membership will return with their old grudges against us ?

* One, I just don’t see it happening. Two, GS ‘culture’ is such that any commitments made by the team of NOW will be honored by the team of the FUTURE (now don’t get started on the NAP thing… I am making a different point in direct response to the above question ).

7. You dare demand that we gift you all of our tech to make a show of good faith ? From our perspective, it is NOT GoW who needs to show good faith.

* I’m not sure where that came from… did we make such a demand? I think good faith in this regard works both ways, btw: What techs do we each have and want? How do we coordinate?*

8. All of your plans demand that RP remains within the game. GS hates us… but the attitude from RP is tenfold against GoW. We have plenty of PM’s which clearly states how much RP wants to hurt GoW. How can you expect us to leave team alive in this game, who will obviously conspire against us for the rest of the game. If you don’t believe us, read the sig on Bigfree’s next post in the ISDG.

* Again, we don’t hate you. OK, that was the easy one. Yes, dealing with RP will be tricky. Again, I’d like to hold out the analogy of the stick and the carrot: Stick) RP is done, yes? They live by virtue of our loyalty, and yet also at our sufferance. Carrot) We offer them a meaningfully way to play out the game (in my mind, Tibetans)… but, on their terms, that means that we (i.e., GoW and GS) will need to ‘feed their satisfaction’. THAT means roleplaying… are you guys ready to pay respect to the Pope? That is what must happen. We at GS are more than ready to broker a rapprochement between RP and GoW, FOR REAL, including the symbolic. Think of the benefits… you already see, I think, the opportunities that would come from a GoW/GS teaming… now add in the benefit of a third core and partner. TOUGH to contemplate, I know, but the best course of action for ALL of us.*
_______________

In terms of the team’s commitment, let me say that we are very consensus oriented, and I would never send all this to you without team approval. Somewhere above, you asked if GoW had to take my word that this is all true… when we have a contract ready, I will personally round up every GSer I can find, and either have them virtually sign the contract, or send you PMs, or whatever is needed to make sure you understand our commitment.

I… do not have the words that I want to speak. In history, I admire such as Caesar, and Truman, and Churchill, and Kennedy, and hope to deliver stirring words and thoughts such as they did.

NOW is out time to take control of this world!

The past? It is PAST.

In recent days, we have had delivered to us C3C… I haven’t played it yet, but the WW2 Pacific Conquest is evidently amazing… and stunning, as in everyone who has reported on it thus far has been stunned by the extent of action, units, etc., and jumping into the middle of a game that had not been played from 4000 BC.

Do you all understand my point?

THROW OFF THE FLAME WARS!! In this game, the PTWDG, we are where we are… can anyone credibly argue against a GoW/GS alliance in all due logic?

This thing that we do, the PTWDG, is one of the most amazing phenomenon in the Internet and gaming world… it pains me that it has suffered as it has, and that team participation has lessened as it has… but nonetheless, it is a harbinger of things to come.

When the time comes, I want my name attached to this. And further, I want me and mine to be seen GLORIOUSLY…

This idea? GoW and GS together, out of nowhere?

Tremendous.

Let’s do it… and then, in the final showdown, let the chips fall as they may.

[Panzer32]

From Theseus yesterday (was too busy last night to post):

Chat?
We have the PTWDG save.

T

Sometime in the evening maybe? Its too late now to have an UnOrthOdOx chat time

I would rather someone else looks after this chat. I'm not good at this type of diplomacy and not really interested in it. MZ, UnO?

[UnOrthOdOx]

We're discussing now.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Start of #GoW_CoFA buffer: Sat Nov 15 15:30:16 2003
* Now talking in #GoW_CoFA
* MZ[Food] sets mode: +ps
[[GoW]UnO] make a password and secret?
[MZ[Food]] it's secret
[MZ[Food]] i'll put up a pword once he gets here
* Theseus has joined #GoW_CoFA
[[GoW]UnO] SirUlias: Look, GS has done an honorable job, they
have done more than neccessary already.
[[GoW]UnO] SirUlias: NO ONE, and I do mean no one can say that
GS has not done their best and most honorable job in keeping RP
alive.
[Theseus] Hey.
* MZ[Food] sets mode: +k squid
[MZ[Food]] there, everything is secure
[[GoW]UnO] Ok, Theseus, continuing my line of thought.
[[GoW]UnO] The thing is, we would like to be given the
opportunity to honorably finish our contract with ND.
[[GoW]UnO] If ANYONE can understand that it is GS.
[[GoW]UnO] You have told us that you don't have a CONTRACT to
save RP, but we DO have one for their removal and preferable
destruction.
[MZ[Food]] I like the latter myself
[[GoW]UnO] I'm sure you can see how this all feels like finding a
way out more than completing the contract.
[Theseus] Correct. We would see you entirely completing the
contract... so I don;t see the problem.
[Theseus] Let me be specific... RP would not set foot on Bob
until ND's demise.
[[GoW]UnO] What I am asking, to put it more bluntly, is would GS
consider allowing us to finish it here, and not keep RP alive.
[[GoW]UnO] I really don't see our team subjugating to the pope,
nor do I see us trusting them again.
[[GoW]UnO] This also brings problems up with the cease fire you
propose.
[Theseus] How so?
[[GoW]UnO] It would look awfully strange to others if no action
took place, would it not?
[[GoW]UnO] Secrecy is of the utmost importance.
[[GoW]UnO] upmost.
[Theseus] Nah, not for one turn... we'd fortify everything on
hills and mountains... if you wanted to ping us with Cats
that'd probably be OK, and would be reasonable.
[Theseus] Thank god there are no C3C Armies involved.
[[GoW]UnO] GS wouldn't have rushed a wonder, I can tell you that.
[Theseus] And none of that "subjugate to the pope" crap will be
allowed. I think of their surviving status being a lot more
like Tibet than Vatican City.
[Theseus] Some roleplay would be involved though.
[[GoW]UnO] You are expecting me to control the posting and
roleplay habits of the like of Ghengis and HotEnamel?
[Theseus] LOL
[MZ[Food]] that'll be well near impossible
[Theseus] Hey, we all do what we can. We can make provisions for
that. I'll bring Nathan back in.
[Theseus] Boy was that part of the game painful.
[[GoW]UnO] So, there is no way GS will consider Roleplay's
destruction?
[MZ[Food]] c'mon have some fun fer christ sakes, game will be
played faster with one less team
[Theseus] LOL
[Theseus] I won't say no, but it's REALLY hard.
* [GoW]UnO is uncomfortable with the situation of small teams and
votes...
* MZ[Food] also
[Theseus] Do you mean a UN vote?
[MZ[Food]] yep
* MZ[Food] is now known as MasterZen
[[GoW]UnO] It's possible. You allowed Vox to live...you are
saving RP's ass...
[Theseus] Vox vote for GS?? You gotta be kidding.
[MasterZen] well, maybe that was part of the contract...
[[GoW]UnO] For all I know it was a requirement of the Voxodus.
[Theseus] Nope... we shoulda thought of it, though.
[Theseus] Damn.
[Theseus] 'Cause we would have gotten it... double damn.
[MasterZen] you guys needed an evil scheming diplomat on your
team. There's spare material in GoW, next time maybe there'll
be a pre-season draft
[Theseus] Given that, I don;t think the UN vote should be an
issue.
[[GoW]UnO] God that forum better not ever be made public
[MasterZen] what forum?
[Theseus] Yeah, we are defintely not evil enough.
[[GoW]UnO] GoW
[MasterZen] lol
* MasterZen makes a mental note to delete all his GoW posts
before the game is over
[Theseus] Re the death of RP: It's just really emotionally hard,
even for me.
[[GoW]UnO] Yeah, too bad the search don't work on Private forums.
[MasterZen] don't worry, Theseus, our glee will compensate your
saddness over RP's loss
[Theseus] Thanks a bunch.
[[GoW]UnO] Look at it from our side, we have SIGNED something,
made it EXTREMELY public...
[MasterZen] Yeah, Togas even calls us "ND's *****es"
[Theseus] Man, we're proposing to send them to the projects!!
They'll have maybe 4-5 crap cities in N. Stormia.
[[GoW]UnO] And later be back on Bob.
[Theseus] You beat the living hell out've them.
[Theseus] And they'll have CRAP cities on Bob.
[[GoW]UnO] Theseus, the Glory of WAR would like to off someone
for once...geez...
[Theseus] I threw out an idea to MZ earlier... what if there were
a restriction that their territory on Bob could not touch GoW's?
[[GoW]UnO] If we finally decide to allow them to live, that wont
be a problem. It's the allowing them to live thing.
[Theseus] Uh, UnO... you can have the coup de grace on ND, OK?
[Theseus] LOL
[Theseus] How come it was OK for Lego to save Vox?
[Theseus] They were absolute scumbags to us.
[MasterZen] they made it funny
[[GoW]UnO] That was between you and Lego, I personally made it
VERY public I preferred them to be destroyed.
[MasterZen] RP was never funny
[[GoW]UnO] I don't like the idea of vassals.
[MasterZen] you funny = you get to survive. You boring =
dieieieieeeeee
[[GoW]UnO] I wouldn't want to play out a game like that.
[Theseus] Well they're a friggin' laughing stock now.
[[GoW]UnO] My son is enjoying King Kong...it's rather funny.
[Theseus] I don't see what good RP is going to be from a 'vassal'
perspective.
[MasterZen] they'll find a way...
[[GoW]UnO] Look, we're not in a position to sign the deal right
now, that is obvious.
[Theseus] Correct.
[MasterZen] there's always a way
[Theseus] I'm gonna take a chance...
[Theseus] I believe we can get this done... with or without RP.
[[GoW]UnO] I meant today, MZ, let the hotheads time to settle
down...
[[GoW]UnO] WITHOUT RP would definately be closer...
[Theseus] I am unilaterally entering a cease fire for one turn so
we can get a deal done.
[Theseus] All units in your territories are going to be
fortified, and no new ones will enter.
[Theseus] You guys do whatever you gotta do. I suggested some Cat
pinging.
[[GoW]UnO] I can say that we are not in a position to attack
anyway, but may bombard if only for appearances.
[Theseus] I've gotta play the turn. Is it OK if we leave this
open. or start a new room specifically for GoW/GS discussions?
[[GoW]UnO] Erm, what more needs discussing?
[[GoW]UnO] unless you allow us to kill RP...
[Theseus] Doing a deal.
[Theseus] There's a lot of deal points to settle. Also, I'd like
to continue to address other GoW members' concerns if
necessary... inlcuding whoever wrote the long letter.
[Theseus] And, I know that other GSers want to participate.
[Theseus] And, maybe you can convince us to let RP die.
[[GoW]UnO] Well, I'm afraid that this isn't the best time for me.
I was just here to see to the ceasefire, I am really sorry.
[Theseus] If this is going to stay open, Cort Haus can't get in.
[[GoW]UnO] I have my kids and can't concentrate/babysit at the
same time.
[Theseus] UnO, I'm not saying we have to deal now... I know later
is better.
[[GoW]UnO] I just saw your message, and you, and was trying to
get the emergency done.
[Theseus] I'm just saying it might be helpful to keep a chatroom
open.
[Theseus] And thanks for showing up by the way.
[[GoW]UnO] You just happened to catch me getting online to see if
anyone was comming to the game I'm trying to set up tonight.
[[GoW]UnO] Care to join?
[Theseus] Simultaneous?
[[GoW]UnO] yep, we got the kinks worked out earlier in the week
[Theseus] What time?
[MasterZen] I tried to play simul last night but me and Trip
couldn't connect
[MasterZen] I played turnless about 3 weeks ago with BF and
Arnelos, modern start, it was fun as hell
[[GoW]UnO] 10:30 EST
[[GoW]UnO] 22:30
[[GoW]UnO] My wife is out till midnight (my time) so I can play
for 3 hours...
[Theseus] I can host.
[[GoW]UnO] Oh good, my dial up aint the best.
[MasterZen] 9:30 CST
[MasterZen] sounds good, If I'm around I'll play too
[[GoW]UnO] Maybe Panzer can even join if your hosting.
[MasterZen] btw, this going to be C3C or PTW?
[[GoW]UnO] C3C.
[MasterZen] doh, don't have it yet
[[GoW]UnO] Or, that's what I was planning, one of the conquests.
[MasterZen] (only the incompatible beta)
[Theseus] I still like the idea of keeping a chatroom open, for
the weekend at least.
[MasterZen] i'll play next time
[MasterZen] Theseus: if I'm online i'm always on AIM
[[GoW]UnO] If you have a continual connection, go for it. It's
impossible with my dial up.
[[GoW]UnO] (continuous chatroom that is)
[Theseus] Will it stay open?
[MasterZen] on AIM? nope
[Theseus] Here...
[MasterZen] ah here, I can keep GoW_CoFA open
[[GoW]UnO] Ah, just reading up on Clan MZO.
[[GoW]UnO]
[[GoW]UnO] Anyway, I need to get going, I'll get back to you on
Clan MZO, MZ
[Theseus] MZ, where do I find the log file?
[[GoW]UnO] I've already been asked a few times about what the MZO
on all my names in Diablo is...
[MasterZen] ah you need to enable logs
[[GoW]UnO] Theseus, Rightclick the room name at the top.
[MasterZen] File/Options/Logging, then change to "Both" at the top
[[GoW]UnO] Just right click the room name, choose buffer, then
save-as. Should work.
End of #GoW_CoFA buffer Sat Nov 15 15:30:16 2003

[Master Zen]

this was the earlier chat I had with Theseus via AIM, first half is just C3C stuff:

CivTheseus: You avoiding me?
Raguil79: hehehe, couldn't be avoiding ya if I just added you to my AIM list ;-)
CivTheseus:
Raguil79: I was at the dentist, just got back
CivTheseus: You ok?
Raguil79: yes, just a regular check up, everything in working condition
CivTheseus: I've been reading about Armies at 'poly (weekend catch-up).
CivTheseus: They are stunning.
CivTheseus: "So a 4xSipahi Army with max bonus is friggin' 16 attack??!! And moves 4 tiles?? And blitzes? And pillages?"


Raguil79: yes, though I still miss my military leader rushes
Raguil79: it's almost impossible as hell to rush an ancient wonder now on emperor and above
CivTheseus: I got a SGL in one of the Conquests.
Raguil79: I got one in the epic game (in the beta) but that was only in the very early industrial when I had finally gotten ahead in techs (this on demigod)
Raguil79: I used it for a scientific GA. Wasn't really that helpful actually. Fortunately I had done prebuilds for ToE and Hoovers
CivTheseus: Hmmm... come to think of it, this will prolly be the biggest determinants of difficulty level. At what level can you reliably be the first to research techs?
Raguil79: well, I only played three full games. Two on emperor and one on demigod. Demigod was pretty hectic. I only leveled with the AI after the early industrial
CivTheseus: I am going to start my first epic game after playing the PTWDG turn.
Raguil79: most of the game I spent waging war just to get techs for payment
Raguil79: then again, I wasn't playing that seriously. Rushed through it, beat it in 9 hours
CivTheseus: Yeah, I tried the first two Conquests on d-g... between the change in objectives, some of the new changes, and the diff level... got my ass kicked.
CivTheseus: Didn't you have to play more during the beta?
Raguil79: My main job was actually helping with the spanish translation files
CivTheseus: Ohhh.
Raguil79: I didn't really have much time to play the game. Started a bunch of games, but only finished three
Raguil79: Sid is outrageously difficult. AI to AI trade rate of 200!!!
CivTheseus: Yeah, I saw screenshots that Catt posted... and they start with 18 units!!
CivTheseus: (I think)
Raguil79: it's like fighting a tank with a toothpick
CivTheseus: Well, the RNG has to cut you a break then. ;-)
Raguil79: during the beta I only heard of one guy winning on Sid in an epic game, and that was (he admitted it himself) a map which favored him greatly
CivTheseus: Jesus, I happen to be looking at a chart of the diff levels... Sid also gets 24 free support.
Raguil79: lol... takes us mortals about 2000 years to make an army that size
CivTheseus: So, uh, about the PTWDG...
Raguil79: to be honest I've been a bit awol this week regarding the PTWDG, damn ISDG has got my hands full dealing with our feisty neighbors CFC
Raguil79: but go ahead anyway, I'm all ears
CivTheseus: Ah... I 've been following that too, although I don;t post all that much. You guys are doing a fabgulous job.
Raguil79: thanks
CivTheseus: Re PTWDG, we want to do a deal. It's the only way we see both of our teams having a shot at the win.
Raguil79: ok, did you convince RP for doing an RPodus(tm)?
CivTheseus: I'm of Russian decent...
CivTheseus: I am now banging my shoe on the conference room table.
CivTheseus: NOT RPodus!! lol
Raguil79: "We will bury you!"
CivTheseus: If GoW and GS come to agreement, yes, RP will be relocated to the projects, uh, I mean North Stormia.
Raguil79: LOL!
Raguil79: we're still a bit uneasy at them returning to Bob though, if that's part of the plan
Raguil79: people forgive, but they never forget. RP will never forget this, and if they get even one chance of trying to screw us later they most likely will. I know I would ;-)
CivTheseus: How about if there were a restriction that their territory could not touch GoW's?
Raguil79: maybe
Raguil79: btw, everything I say is "unofficial"
CivTheseus: Think about it... GS will do all the work of resettling... it'll be up to us what cities they get.
CivTheseus: Yes, unofficial... but I need to play the turn.
Raguil79: when do you think the resettling could take place?
Raguil79: because until that happens we are technically still at war and still allied to ND
CivTheseus: Do you mean by RP? Not until after ND was gone, certainly.
Raguil79: ah, I was referring to them going to tha projects
CivTheseus: OH, sorry.
CivTheseus: Next turn?
Raguil79: wow, that's pretty soon
Raguil79: I say this because frankly the team isn't entirely convinced yet, we're still debating it
CivTheseus: I'd like to suggest a one turn ceasefire between GS and GoW (not RP, btw).
Raguil79: I wish I could say "yes" but Aggie would have to respond to that one
CivTheseus: I know.
Raguil79: have you tried PMing him?
CivTheseus: No... dumb of me.
CivTheseus: UnO just logged on.
Raguil79: yes, I noticed
CivTheseus: I think he's going to try to set up an AIM chatroom.
Raguil79: ok

[Hot_Enamel]

GS has to remove the "stick" before any deals.

Either we destroy them, GS destroys them by attacking us, or they return home

I would prefer the first two options.

[UnOrthOdOx]

No.

I say we stick to our policy with people threatening us. They admit it is a threat even.

Lux threatened us, RP threatened us, now GS threatens us. We DO NOT get threatened!

We need to tell them by the next turn a decision, I say we use that as the basis.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Lux threatened us

Really, when?

[Panzer32]

I'm really not sure