Contact with Lux Invicta!

[Hot_Enamel]

Have we officially responded to Lux regarding this yet ?

We must be very careful in all correspondance (both official & unofficial) with all teams, as we are yet to decide who we will align ourselves with.

If we have regular non-official corresponance with any team. (say ND or Lux). And then this correspondance dries up because we we decide to attack them in 10 rounds, they they will know something is going on.

A sudden lack of commuication will surely tip our hand just as much as if one of our members openly tells a team we are going to war with them.

Regs

[Panzer32]

I'm not sure how to really reply to this... if anyone has any ideas, I'm open to suggestion. We really need to figure out who were allying with.

I think the 15 turns may be Lux trying to start a war before our nonagression pact with them runs out, thus automatically making us neutral or on their side.

[=OttomusCeasar=]

Originally posted by Panzer32
I think the 15 turns may be Lux trying to start a war before our nonagression pact with them runs out, thus automatically making us neutral or on their side.

Who exactly do we have nonagression pacts with and for how much longer?

[Panzer32]

We have nonagression pacts with Lux (necessary for them not to take over our undefended city) until 1725 BC, and Roleplay, 50 turns from 2850BC. If anyone wishes to calculate the end turn, go ahead

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

1725 BC the war begins...............

[Panzer32]

btw, the Roleplay nonagression pact might stop them from coming in on Lux's side (for a while). If they do break the treaty and do attack us, then out comes the propaganda machine into the public forum...


ROLEPLAY A TREATY BREAKER!!


hehe

[Donegeal]

According to the save that Borc sent to GF and I, Lux does indeed have contact with Vox. It would be my guess that Vox must be somewhere to the east of Lux where a single tile of coast separates Our continent and Vox's.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Got this memo form BFM in my pm box today:

Hello GhengisFarb, Glorious Warmonger,

I would like to speak to you about the conversation we had not long ago. You surprised me with some of the things you said, especially about the HBR trade with RP. I will outline the course of events here:

a) First, we agreed not to trade HBR to RP, unless you wouldn't trade it to them. This was written in an agreement and sent to you.

b) You sent back the agreement, but without the sentence '...unless GoW does not trade it to RP', to Trip. It wasn't noticed by us that you had suddenly changed the text, so we did not reply and it was our opinion that the text I descibed under a) was agreed upon.

c) We got a message from RP stating that the deal GoW-RP was off.

d) We concluded, from c) and the text from a), that it was now open to us to offer RP a trade.

e) You contacted me and said that we had broken a treaty.


Let me know if I give a rightful description of the events.


Before I comment on this, let me clearly point out that Lux values to be open and honest. We also do not want some short-term advantage if this means losing you as a strategic partner. Especially now that relations are becoming tense on this continent.

I have also asked a representative of RP to testify what I said.


Fact 1: we have not traded HBR to RP yet, because we want to sort things out with you first.
Fact 2: we feel that if you do not trade HBR to RP, ND or some other Civ will. Not in 20 turns, but sooner than that. Our window of opportunity is closing.
Fact 3: we offer you =again= room to trade HBR to RP. If you cannot work this deal out, however, we'd rather be the civ trading HBR to them, and not ND. Shall we say we want clarity in two turns from now?


Let me know how you and your people feel about this.


Then, another thing. You asked in our chat whether we have been amassing troops. Well, we fear that ND is the aggressive civ, so we are prepared to defend ourselves if they attack. However, we will not make an attack ourselves. We value peace above all.
I would like to know your thoughts on this situation as well, because if ND and Lux go to war eventually, GoW might be drawn in. What is your opinion of the ND civ?


I hope we can resolve this matter soon. I also hope to meet you on #Apolyton channel in the next few days!

BigFurryMonster
Minister of Peace

Here is draft of a possible response:

BigFurryMonster wrote on 29-01-2003 14:50:
Hello GhengisFarb, Glorious Warmonger,

I would like to speak to you about the conversation we had not long ago. You surprised me with some of the things you said, especially about the HBR trade with RP. I will outline the course of events here:

a) First, we agreed not to trade HBR to RP, unless you wouldn't trade it to them. This was written in an agreement and sent to you.

That was the second thing, the first negotiation was that Lux would not trade Horseback to RP period. This was to force RP to trade Writing to us and I gave Lux my word that if it cost them getting Writing we would do whatever was necessary to insure Lux received Writing.

Then the treaty was sent to me REWRITTEN to allow Lux to do the exact thing we negotiated for them to not do. I deleted the improvised clause and sent it back.

c) We got a message from RP stating that the deal GoW-RP was off.

d) We concluded, from c) and the text from a), that it was now open to us to offer RP a trade.

e) You contacted me and said that we had broken a treaty.

Roleplay led us to believe that your team INSTRUCTED them not to trade with us. A complete violation of the treaty, not only did you not give us a chance to trade by your own doctored clause you tried to undermine and prevent us from even negotiating a trade.

You also stated that you had sent them a memo stating that you could not trade them Horseback Riding and that you couldn't send a copy to me unless Roleplay gave you approval.

Roleplay claims that this memo never existed and that you are lying about ever asking them for permission to send us a copy of anything.

Roleplay also told us that you claimed to have researched Horseback yourself and told them you never got it from us.


The current situation:
(This is unofficial but it best describes the overall mood so you can get a better grasp of how our team may react since you cannot read the comments in our forum.)

This incident has shifted GoW's members from approx 70% in favor of siding with Lux to approx 55% in favor of siding with ND. The remaining 45% is split between staying out of the situation and supporting Lux.

Several of the pro ND camp couldn't care less about siding with ND and simply want to go to war with Lux at the end of the nonaggression treaty. There is wide speculation that Lux and Roleplay have signed a military pact to split the continent amongst themselves and destroy us and ND, a theory which they say Roleplay members lend credence to.

Honestly, there isn't much I can do at this point. The only thing that will change their attitudes is some sort of positive response from Lux.

Roleplay will now give us Writing for no less than 100 gold. Which has infuriated the members of my team as they see that as the cost for trusting Lux.

The best idea I can see is for you to trade Horseback Riding to Roleplay for Writing and give Writing to us. I seriously doubt your team would do this, but it would allow me to convince my more pro-war colleagues that we lost nothing in this exchange. We wanted Writing for Horseback and we got it and by not costing us gold it would undermine two of the arguments of the war supporters.

If necessary we could simply not tell Roleplay where we got it.

Another other option is gold. I had offered to assist Lux in getting Writing if our deal cost them that tech only to discover Lux going behind our back and rejecting my offer. If Lux could help offset the 100 gold cost of Writing that would help to undermine the resentment of my team members.

Lastly, these are not ultimatums, I still plan to honor the commitments my team made in the treaty in regards to Construction, Commerce, and Mathematics. I am however less than secure in my beliefs that Lux will honor theirs. These are merely suggestions on ways to decrease the animosity and tensions between our teams.

[Hot_Enamel]

BFM's point b)

They admit they made the mistake.
The final agreement is the last email regarding this deal.
That is the GF one with the clause deleted.

If they misread it, then that is their problem.

The GOW insist they abide by conditions of the contract and not sell it to RP.

Secondly, we insist that they immediately inform RP that they cannot and willnot trade HBR to RP.

In my eyes, Lux remains on my **** list until we get confirmation from RP, that they will now do a straight up trade (Writing for HBR).

If RP demand additional gold or any crap like that, Lux can reimburse us. From our Roleplay chat, it is obvious to me that Lux has been feeding bull**** to RP about us.




GF.... You can quote me on the above and attach it to your email as an example of a pro ND member.

To me, whatever you come up with to get Writing as soon as it is available, is agreeable to me.

Regs

[Hot_Enamel]

From BFM's email, (and their earlier request if we would be ready in 15 turns), I think they are getting ready for an early archer/chariot rush of ND.

We should warn ND that they should prepare them selves.

And put our offensive into overdrive.

If Lux catches ND out, and destroys half of them....and then we destroy Lux....this would be a dream come true.
We would become the dominent player in the NOrthern Region.

GF, The last thing we want to happen, is for Lux to panic and not go through with their war plans.
Perhaps mention to them, that it is your opion, it is most likely, that the GOW will remain neutral.

Regs

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Currently both cities are building Spearmen as we can't built Swordmen or Horsemen without Iron or Horses.

I figure we build the Spearmen now, connect the Horses then switch to full Horsemen production and use our Spearmen stockpile for awhile.

[Panzer32]

Hold the presses...
______________________

Lux Invicta

Hello Dear Panzer:

I am jdjdjd of España (RP), Ambassador to the Ottoman's(LI).

I am writing on behalf of the Ottoman's, to clear up a misconception that is out there and may hurt your opinion of LI. Lux Invicta never sought to trade us HBR for Writing until after I had approached BigFurryMonster about it. That was after I was told it was certain that our team and yours were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfere with the RP-GoW trade and only negotiated after we told them the trade was off.

Please let us know should you have any questions.

I remain,

jdjdjd

[Hot_Enamel]

Originally posted by Panzer32
Hold the presses...
______________________

Lux Invicta

Hello Dear Panzer:

I am jdjdjd of España (RP), Ambassador to the Ottoman's(LI).

I am writing on behalf of the Ottoman's, to clear up a misconception that is out there and may hurt your opinion of LI. Lux Invicta never sought to trade us HBR for Writing until after I had approached BigFurryMonster about it. That was after I was told it was certain that our team and yours were not going to trade. Since RP and GoW worked out our differences, the trade will commense with GoW and not with Lux. Lux has never tried to interfere with the RP-GoW trade and only negotiated after we told them the trade was off.

Please let us know should you have any questions.

I remain,

jdjdjd

And this is an edit from the GOW - RP chat

[21:02] [Arnelos] Lux HAS offered us Horseback Riding - your deal sounds FAR better, though. Obviously, the despot (Togas) gets to make the decision on this, but I agree that your deal sounds good
[21:03] [GoW_Panzer32] yeah, Lux is a lying team anyways
[21:03] [Ninotsback] i share Arnelos' opinion completely
[21:04] [GhengisDevil] WRITE DOWN WHAT ARNELOS JUST SAID PANZER
[21:05] [Ninotsback] they havent made a trade. they considered it tho
[21:05] [GhengisDevil] They can't ever OFFER it.
[21:05] [Ninotsback] well then
[21:05] [Ninotsback] that makes that clear
[21:05] [Ninotsback] on the other hand, we have not accepted their deal at all
[21:06] [GhengisDevil] Busted
[21:06] [GhengisDevil] BFM swore to me this morning that he sent your team a memo that said they could not trade you Horseback Riding.
[21:07] [Ninotsback] we received just the opposite
[21:07] [Arnelos] yeah, we asked them about this "deal"
[21:07] [adaMada] Ghengis -- I belive you, personally
[21:07] [adaMada] *believe
[21:07] [adaMada] But ONE team is lying, and we really have no proof either wa...
[21:07] [adaMada] Any way we could, once and for all, settle the issue?
[21:08] [GhengisDevil] BFM told me this morning he could not send me a copy of the memo because he had to have your teams approval and yoru team wouldn't give it.
[21:09] [Arnelos] (we never said that)
[21:09] [Ninotsback] ok, very honestly now, i tell you, BFM never asked us for aproval on anything concering GoW
[21:09] [Arnelos] yup
[21:09] [GoW_Panzer32] But there are some things that are pretty convincing
[21:10] [Ninotsback] This swirl of controvorsy... every little "wrong" thing about it has SOMETHING to do with Lux
[21:10] [Arnelos] but given that Ninot agreed with me...



We could stir up some real bad blood between Lux and RP if we sent the above to Lux.

And if Lux cracks it and honours the agreement not to sell HBR to RP, then HBR becomes more valuable to RP.

And it still doesnt resolve the problem that Lux does not own the rights to HBR and cannot even offer it to RP.

We should also send the above to adaMada. And ask him the question of what the hell is going on with his team !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Even in the chat they SPECIFICALLY state that Lux offered them Horseback Riding.

Then jdjd turns around and BLATANTLY TELLS THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

They are obviously lying to regain Lux's position with us and I therefore think we should view Lux and Roleplay as almost the same civ. Perhaps consider Lux and northern colony of Roleplay.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

I got this memo from BFM in my pm box:

Hello GhengisFarb!

Again, thank you for your quick reply. We Luxians like to deal with miscommunications that have arisen as soon as possible (we'd rather avoid them in the future, though).

I have consulted the people of Luxia. They feel that more care could have been taken in the process -with the sent messages and all- but they want to continue trade anyway.
Also, it is not a good thing that RP asks so much of you for Writing.

Luxia is divided, but have listened to my advice. That is to go with your solution. We will get Writing from RP and give it to you for free. But we feel that: we hereby compensate you in a very royal way. It is the trust we put in you.
We have therefore a few sidenotes:

a) As you said yourself, keep this a secret. We do not want to be known as the Civ that gives away tech for free...! That goes for both ND and RP, and for any other civ you might meet in the future.

b) Do not trade Writing to ND. I cannot check this, and I won't hold you responsible for doing it anyway, but I ask you a favor in return for the one I just gave you.

c) We (obviously) need Writing first. I don't think that will be a problem, but I cannot claim that I have it until the scroll is at my side of the bargaining table.

I hope that in the future, you will cast your "serious doubts" about Lux aside, and that you can convince your people of this as well. I repeat: we are a peaceful and honorable nation. We value trust, and will keep our promises.

We will contact RP to see when they have Writing for us.

Realize that you have lost nothing, but have gained the option of having an extra friend.

BigFurryMonster

Roleplay will now give us Writing for no less than 100 gold. Which has infuriated the members of my team as they see that as the cost for trusting Lux.

The best idea I can see is for you to trade Horseback Riding to Roleplay for Writing and give Writing to us. I seriously doubt your team would do this, but it would allow me to convince my more pro-war colleagues that we lost nothing in this exchange. We wanted Writing for Horseback and we got it and by not costing us gold it would undermine two of the arguments of the war supporters.

If necessary we could simply not tell Roleplay where we got it.

I'm thinking we can continue to explore south, get Writing from Lux, and when our Non Agression treaty is up still have the option to go to war.