Inchon landing ~600BC.

[Arrian]

EDIT: Forget the number 600, I'm not actually aiming at that particular year

I've been looking at the map, pondering how I'd like to go about our counterattack vs. Vox.

Here's what I would like to do:

I want two more galleys for the west coast. I want 3 pikemen and a settler.

I want to sail north, and land that stack on the hill 2, 2 from Eliopolis.

Assuming we survive to the next turn (which with 3 pikes, I think we should), we build a city up there. Then the next priority is to get more pikes some offensive units up there to kill any units that try to get around or attack the city. Vox's iron should be cut just by us building the city.

Then we can march on Dissidentville at our leisure, and when we choose to invade Estonia proper, we will do so against an ironless opponent.

Potential downside: we could lose the 3pikes + settler. Upside: if our city survives up there, they're screwed.

I still think they are morons for not building Eliopolis on the hill "2" from their city. I want to make them pay for that mistake.

-Arrian

EDIT: a couple of edits due to me being an idjit about certain things.

[Velociryx]

Arrian - I like the plan, but have reservations as to the timing, pending the action around Arashi.

If they attack (and I believe they will), then the ~600 timeframe works for me, cos they won't have much of an army left.

If they do as Theseus has predicted, and march around Arashi heading further south, then we'll need to continue to focus on land-based units (pikes and medievals) to throw a stop-gap force just in front of our second city down the spine, in which case, I do not believe the ~600 date to be a viable timeframe.

But I have to say, I love the plan itself! If we do it though, we put our city in much the same position as Dissidentville is....too remote to be quickly reinforced. To that end, we should also plan for having WC's en route to that area overland? This would enable us to reinforce the area much more quickly than they might otherwise be expecting, if they operate under the assumption that we're relying on ferrying via galleys to bring reinforcements up.

It would be ideal if we could time this attack with a probe toward Dville with slow movers, as a successful attack there would put still more of our forces far enough north to be in a position to provide support for the new town.

One additional thought....for flexibility, how would you feel about adding a third galley, and including an additional pike +1 worker? If they lose their main attack force, we'd be almost guaranteed to hold the town with 4 Pikes sitting in it, cos I can't envision a situation where they could scrape enough force together to push that kind of defense out.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

I KNEW that ~600 was gonna get me in trouble.

I don't have a specific date in my head for this operation. It's more along the lines of "when we've beaten back their attack and are ready to take the offensive." I shoulda put ~500 BC.

Regarding an extra galley & pikeman... well, if I had my druthers, I'd have 10 galleys with a massive army on them. But I'm trying to keep it small. 3 pikes & a settler to start with is the minimum I think can work. If we can muster another galley w/pikemen, great. We will have a better feel for the numbers later.

As for reinforcement, it will have to be via galley until we take Dissidentville and get a road connection. Still, with the Lighthouse, our galleys move 4 tiles/turn, which means they can do a pretty fast shuttle run from our NW coast (around where Monsoon is, whether or not the city survives).

-Arrian

[Theseus]

I concur with timing this to match a slowmover attack on D-ville.

Arrian = Rumsfeld

Move fast, keep'em off balance.

[Randolph]

good idea.
1) can you build a city inside someone else's cultural boarders even when you are at war. (I think I remember that you can, but I'd like to be sure)
2) What would you think of also building a horse unit or two for a probe attack on the road to their iron colony (if it is not or only lightly defended)? If we have a city where you plan, and they have no iron it will have the dual effect of an entertaining last stand with archers, and a practical shot at a great leader. On that note if Vox doesn't just fold after they lose the major battles should we try to milk a leader or two out of a contained Vox?

[Shiber]

I'd prefer to scout the area of the colony using the galleys that will offload the troops near Eliopolis, as they return to friendly shores.

[Arrian]

Arrian = Rumsfeld

I suppose I'll take that as a compliment.

I'd prefer to scout the area of the colony using the galleys that will offload the troops near Eliopolis, as they return to friendly shores

That's what the two EAST coast galleys are for. I'm talking about a WEST coast operation.

Randolph, yes, you can build a city inside a civ's cultural borders when at war. That's the key to my plan.

I do this all the time vs. the AI, but of course Vox is not the AI. Still, even if they are smart enough to have those two hills covered, we could still drop the pikes off on a jungle tile and cut off Dissidentville. There is just too much territory for them to cover up there.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

If it were an AI nation, I'd be all for milking, but IMO, humans are just too unpredictable. Odds are that even WHEN we cut their iron, they'll secure another source via trade....we can't rely on them off from their iron source as a perma fix, IMO.

Example - We cut them off from their iron source, they drop to building a mix of warrior/spear until they can secure a deal for Iron from elsewhere and get another round of financing, and suddenly we're looking at big stacks of Immortals again.

I agree that we should take every opportunity to create some GL's....it's just that, the longer the war grinds on with them, the more likely it is that something unpredictable/beyond our control will occur.

-=Vel=-

[Arrian]

I'm not for milking them... I want to kill them ASAP. Cutting their iron is moving toward that purpose. Sure, they might be able to trade for iron... but at that point it would have to be charity. They could not afford to pay for the iron while upgrading warriors to immortals and losing a war.

Anyway, cutting the iron is only one reason I want to do this. The other is creating a strongpoint north of D-ville that stops their forces cold while we can mop up in the south and then move north en masse.

The first thing I'd want our little hill city to build would be walls. Then we're talking about the same defensive prowess as Arashi. That confines them to the north, except by sea, which we seem well-positioned to control.

By the way, I was just thinking... I know you can build inside other's territory, but I cannot remember if building directly adjacent to an enemy city is ok. You can't build your own cities adjacent to one another, but I think I've done it with enemy cities. I just can't remember for sure. Still, the southern hill would work just as well, once we got offensive troops (and cats) up there.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Sure, taking their iron will be far from a permanent fix, however, they will need to build a harbor before receiving iron in a trade... and I haven't seen any harbor yet. No matter what approach we take to cutting their iron (this city plan sounds lovely), it has to be swift, and followed by an attack force, so that they are forced to build troops, instead of harbors.

I would love to milk them, in order to get some GLs (at least 2), but I doubt they will let us. We need to take their iron before we can set up serious GL farming, but they will realize it, and most likely make one final attempt at regaining territory before they disband all cities they can disband, or before they give their cities to some other team.

BTW, when the first Vox city is about to be taken, we should post on the public forum that if other teams decide to accept gifted cities from Vox, they face an automatical delcaration of war. I'm sure noone would do it, but just in case...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Arrian, you can't build adjacent to another city, you need to be at least 1 tile apart. That first hill is not an option, but if we would be able to settle the second one (right outside their cultural borders), we can.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Yeah, figures. So it's the southern hill, then. That works too.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

I know you can build inside other's territory, but I cannot remember if building directly adjacent to an enemy city is ok.

Can't build a city adjacent to another.

I wouldn't want to risk a Settler with the first landing or in the first Galley(s). The Settlers we do send should be with the main stack, mostly to claim roads culturally so that Immortals can't have the initiative on the attack. If we have 2-3 Settlers, we can advance in almost complete safety past Dissidentville (clear roads with the military 2 tiles ahead, build city, kill any adjacent stacks with Med Inf, finishing it off with WC's that can move back... 1 tile cultural buffer). Having a Settler to clear Jungle with may also prove very important, as Vox is likely to cut their roads if it comes to that (in which case the Settlers aren't needed for keeping road buffers).

I think we will have a spare unit or two to send from Hurricane in 3 more turns. If Vox attacks Arashi, it would be 2 turns. Just landing a unit on the road to the Iron colony is going to help (diverts Immortals away from the front, and means a 1 turn delay for any planned upgrades). If the unit can pillage the road (decent chance if we send a Pike and a Med Inf) Vox has to build a Harbor at least. (80 shields of Immortal down the drain)

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Aeson

I wouldn't want to risk a Settler with the first landing or in the first Galley(s).

It's a gamble, yeah. But there is method to my madness. Building a city greatly increases our pikes survivability, as they heal 2x as fast as they would just out in the open, and we can pretty quickly rush walls.

We didn't gamble with A9. That's fine... the battle in/around Arashi is the key to the entire war, and is thus not something one is inclined to play "fast 'n loose" with. But this doesn't require a huge investment, and though it could fail, has a huge upside if it succeeds.

Think "Operation Market-Garden" - it failed (because the Brits had faulty intelligence and didn't know there were 2 Panzer divisions smack in the middle of their paradrop areas), but it wasn't far from success, and had it succeeded, it could have been spectacular.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

If we build the city, we have to defend the city, which pigeonholes what we can do. If we cut the Iron, we could then withdraw to a Mountain, Pike defending and Med Inf taking shots at any passing units, load back on a galley, ect... depending on what we face.

If we lose the landing city, Vox has their Iron right back, and it doesn't cut off Iron to Dissidentville in any case (where all the Warriors will be upgraded).

I think our first landing should be on the road 4 or 47 of the Iron Colony, with 2-3 troops (anything that is available from Hurricane after those Immortals are dealt with). This gives us the best defensive terrain that can be expected, and pillaging the road(s) there probably means Vox's only chance to get Iron anywhere from then on out is to build a Harbor.