Chat with Togas

[Theseus]

Too friggin' bad.

I'll roleplay with him... I call Genghis Khan, and he can be whoever he wants.

[DeepO]

Randolph, I answered to you before, as I had done to asleep around the time he posted something similar, and I find it very good you bring it up again. I think you mention the one point where strat forum guys might have a serious advantage over 'the rest': communication. We don't play that much better personally, it's simply the communication that does it, and that (sorry Togas) makes us better then other teams.

In here, I don't have any problem asking 'stupid' questions, throwing wild, unworkable ideas into the open, because I know that nobody will get offended, and most of the times somebody notices, and takes part of the idea to a higher level. Sure, Nathan is (after Aeson perhaps) the best micromanager on this team, but he is not afraid to hear critisism, or receive suggestions, and this is what has brought us so far. It still amazes me that we are able to outsettle all other teams significantly, building a wonder for half the game in our 2nd best city, starting from a decent, not great position, and suffering 6 turns of disease (costing us 5 pop, seriously messing with our plans). (okay, I admit, we might have built a few more defenders along the way, a minor mistake of ours)

This is what makes GS so fun, I have learned more here the past 3 months then in the 6 months prior to that in the strat forum, which I hardly visit anymore -- also because I have no time for playing SP games. But what I learned is not so much about the finer details of Civ3, but it is about how to go out on wild ideas, keep re-evaluating them, and adjusting the moment something else looks better. It's about posting every single (possibly good) idea you have, before you decide on your own if it is worth it or not. Others will judge it for you, and by discussing it in team, you will need to explain why it is good, while trying to find counterarguments to everything someone else can say.

This discussion is what makes any idea well-thought, and exactly this discussion is what makes GS into a special team. Sure, score wise we probably have 10 of the top 100 Civ players in the world in our team (of which I count myself to, some of my games would certainly make it in CFC's top 10 score lists, if that is what you see as a good measure of how well you are in a game), but that does not really matter, if we really would be egotistical instead of teammembers we wouldn't have gotten this far, Vox would have killed us long ago.

This proves, for me, 3 points:
- All input to this team is welcome, and necessary. Without discussion, we would die.

- We are not special in any case, each team with enough discussion can match our personal skills, because as a team they will certainly beat any of our stand alone members. Seeing that many teams are faring less, one can only assume that they have not debated the game so much, because otherwise someone in their team would have spotted mistakes, and asked to correct them.

- Togas is clearly wrong on one point, but I don't want to explain that to him, he manages to offend us each time we want a decent discussion. We are not egotistical by far, as it would mean our undoing. It's very strange to see all these members, many of them (including myself) being at the edge of being stubborn, over-confident or even elitist, getting along so good, forming a super team, instead of a bunch of super individuals. On the contrary, the idea I get from RP is that Togas is a dictator in his own team, meaning that the reason RP is not doing as good as it could is because it drags it level down to the personal level of Togas, instead of using all talent present in his team. (it's not really correct, but it comes close).

We may be elitist in that we don't want to break up the team, and some of us hope that this team can do some more glorious stuff later, but not in the members we take on. Not once have I decided to take on a member because he would be good in-game, but of course, you need to know someone to let him in (or actually, you need to not 'hate' someone to keep him out). If you would apply now, you would still get a abstain from me, I haven't seen you once before this team started, and have certainly no reason to black-ball you. Plus, all new members are still welcome for all I care, we can use more people to keep the discussions going. As long as we don't grow into 50 members, which would break our concensus based decision making, we will do fine.

DeepO

[Theseus]

Eloquent, DeepO. :b

[Dominae]

DeepO, sorry to say, but you're missing the whole point (Togas' point).

Of course we (Gathering Storm) all get along, because we're all 1) "in the club", 2) similar in temperament, specifically our drive to win. Concerning number 2, just look at our "platform" ("to find the most optimal strategy to win"...or something like that), and tell me anyone on this team is not proud that we're the ones trying (and maybe succeeding) to be the best. Stating that our team internally displays a lot of teamwork and general "good feelings" does not address Togas' beef with us.

Overall, I believe the players on the other teams want to win. So I can very much understand that when one team sucks in all the talent (so to speak), and makes it their raison d'être to be "the best", it can be frustrating to be left out. And most people here would say "too darn bad!", but this is exactly the kind of attitude that everyone else is criticizing us for.

We're not humble. We're good enough that some humility would not be out of place. It would do us some good.

Imagine if the Dream Team would parade around every year, saying "We're the best in the world, can we conceivably lose?", "Look at France, almost none of their players can dunk!", or "Our star player is injured, we're not going to do as well as could this year". Etc. etc. The rest of the world would probably look at them in disgust. Which is why the players of the US Dream Team have been heavily coached as to how to act in press conferences, etc. Their strategy: avoid the topic as much as possible; play the game, win, shut up about it and go home.

The only reason (that I can think of) as to why this is getting us so worked up is that we've got something to prove. Before saying "that's not me", sit back and consider the truth of it. How would we feel if we lost this game (say, to Vox)? Are we rising to meet a challenge for the sake of fun and competition, or are we just trying not to lose, because it would be slightly more humiliating than we would like? Chanting the mantra "we're the best" can be a good exercise in positive thinking, but it can also be a refuge for the arrogant.

Let's win this thing, then pat ourselves on the back later, shall we?


Dominae


P.S: I fully realise that my comments will not be popular among many here (especially considering that I have not been contributing much lately). But, for myself, I'll always be more faithful to Apolyton as a whole than Gathering Storm alone. And I hope you'll all understand that I'm just trying to prevent the appearance of a rift (between "Strat Forum Gathering Storm" and the rest of 'Poly) where there need not be one.

[Dominae]

Another thing: personally I also am on this team because, in my esteem, it contains some of the best Civ3 players on the 'net. But this does not make me want to win more. Just because we all consider each other "good players" does not mean we have to live up to each other at all costs. I'll be just as interested in seeing how all these great players take loss than how they push themselves to win.


Dominae

[DeepO]

Dominae, I don't disagree with you, but why is it contrary to what I said? I honestly believe that we do not have any special qualities, even if we may have a couple of the best players in our team. The thing I wanted to say is that it is team work that makes us good, not individual quality of players. And this is exactly where I think Togas is wrong: his team should not be any less as ours, if they would have the same kind of interaction as we have.

I don't consider us to be the best (well, apart from the mentioned drive to over-confidence I regularly fall victim to), not at all. But yes, we're here to win, like all other teams. We have, quite naturally, found a formula to become better then our individual skills, by communication. There is no reason why other teams couldn't do that, so of course we're not superiour then others.

The thing is, I don't see ourselves as the dream team, at least not like the US basketball one. We do not singlehandedly outclass everyone in this game, at least I don't. It's the team play that makes us good, and if other teams do not do that, I don't care if they lose, I won't feel sorry.

Look at Togas, for instance. He is feared here, for only the diplomatic damage he manages to inflict. We can't do that, nor do we try. Does that make Togas humble about his ability? On the contrary, he boasts all he can in the ISDG. Do we do the same? I've seen only one such discussion, and that was the discussion on how close we should settle our cities, in which we did 'stand on our stripes' (Dutch). Do we attack Togas for his personal skill? no... not once. So why does he find the nerve to do it to us? His team could be equally good as ours, if they plaid right.

BTW, nobody comments on ND, or on Lego, for the simple reason that both teams seem to have found the same balance as us. They too are teams, not individuals. I respect them a lot, and think that one of our 3 teams has the most chance of winning this game.

Last comment: it certainly is not easy for us to get along so well, I work in a highly 'intelligent' place, and if you see some of the backstabbing between professors and researchers, you would be scared. The moment you realise you might have something special compared to someone else, it makes communication a lot more difficult. In other teams, one or 2 leaders can lead a team, in GS that wouldn't work in 100 years, for the simple reason that nobody is going to accept authority if he thinks he can do better then the leader. For me, this is the only reason for our success, and the main achievement: getting along, and listening to others. And yes, maybe the strat forum has helped in that, as it too can be a high-testosterone place.

One last comment: We're not exactly humble, and indeed, that doesn't suit us. But again, seeing as we're not special, and other teams aren't humble either, screw them. I don't want to create any ridges between us and the rest of 'poly, but I'll be damned if we have to be pressed into the corner all the time, kissing Togas *ss to be allowed into the rest of the world. Are we really the ones causing rifts here?

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Dominae
Another thing: personally I also am on this team because, in my esteem, it contains some of the best Civ3 players on the 'net.

See, that's the difference, I think. I don't see us as the best players, even if I fully acknowledge that many of the best known players are on our team. I didn't join this team because it had all this talent, I did it because I was asked by friends, and hoped to consolidate friendship with many more people. Call me naive, but that's my reason for joining, and only that.

Other teams have plenty of talent too, maybe less known, maybe less 'developed' into posting ideas, but there is enough talent on this game to fill 20 teams.

Of course I acknowledge that fast enough, GS looked to be the best competitor for winning this game, however in my first few posts in the public PTW forum, I already stated that one of the biggest problems with our team would be the conflicting opinions, and resulting discussions. I also feared, that when you decided to be less active in our team, that those discussions were part of the reason for your decision, and I didn't like it. Because, if it can remain friendly, the discussion is what saves us, and makes us better friends. And friendship is the reason to stay in this team, not the prospect of possibly winning it. And certainly not the idea to boast later to those unfortunate teams we were able to beat.

DeepO

[Aeson]

I'm here just for the discussions. If we lose due to my arguments, I'd feel bad for the team, but it's not really a big deal to me personally.

Togas' last post is a good end to this IMO (at least as pertains to an out of game experience). He's still reserving the right to 'point out' who he thinks is the problem, but the apology to GS as a team is close enough to what I had hoped he would post.

[Randolph]

Originally posted by Dominae
Imagine if the Dream Team would parade around every year, saying "We're the best in the world, can we conceivably lose?", "Look at France, almost none of their players can dunk!", or "Our star player is injured, we're not going to do as well as could this year". Etc. etc. The rest of the world would probably look at them in disgust. Which is why the players of the US Dream Team have been heavily coached as to how to act in press conferences, etc. Their strategy: avoid the topic as much as possible; play the game, win, shut up about it and go home.

A very good example of what I was trying to get at.

[ManicStarSeed]

Data for the contrary

As for the "elite/clique" thing ...isn't it obvious that we have more members than any other team except RP?

Mss

[OPD]

Re togas

I know him well from the SPDG and this seems quite out of character from him. Although there are better players he more than makes it for it with excessive organization and hard work. At one point while FAM in the SPDG he had more deputy FAM's than there were ministers. From what I read it is obvious that he is mightily pissed off - probably that all his hard work seems futile but there also seems as if there is something more to the way he is acting than just being pissed off.

I may be reading into it things too much but I get the feeling he is justifying something his team are or are about to do to GS.
The way he goes round in circles and repeats himself shows that he only wants it to be clear that RP are possibly others are pissed off with GS. Perhaps so that when we and others see how badly he screwed us he can justify his actions and not look so bad.

IMO Togas values friendship with others esp NYE alot and wouldn't throw any friendship away merely out of spite.

on another note
{Togas> I call a spade a spade.
as Oscar Wilde once said those who call a spade a spade should be forced to use one. I'd like to see Togas digging a few graves for his own people.

[Harovan]

Well, I don't know Togas as good as you do, but if his intention was to piss GS off, he achieved his goal. Before this incident, I could care less about RP. Now I want them dead.

[Arrian]

It remains to be seen exactly what is going on. However, if our suspicions are correct...

After we defeat Vox, I would LOVE to drop several galley loads of attack units (med inf, which has little shelf-life) next to a nice city of RP's, and just break it. "We know what you did. Now (cityname) has paid the price. Do not ever mess with us again."

-Arrian

Edited out a misunderstanding.

[notyoueither]

Good to see you, OPD.

I agree that there may well be more to this than the thread where it blew up. I am sure of it. Whether there is something in game or not, I don't know, but it is plain that he is one of those with dislocated noses by our very existence. Sir Ralph said something earlier along the lines of a small something or other complex.

The ironic thing is that he is miffed with me, still I believe, and I am all too aware of some of the talent on the others teams.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Arrian
SR, did you see the "help from Bob" comment by Jon Miller in his chat with NYE? That's circumstantial evidence of RP assisting/directing the Voxians.

That was me dropping bait. He didn't bite that I noticed.