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  • Chat with Togas

    Some of this is personal. I have to work with this guy in other contexts. I wanted to chat with him before things got too heated. I wanted to see if I could calm things down. I think I did to an extent. But, a lot of it has to do with GS, so I am posting it here.

    Prelude. I idle in the ISDG channel most of the time. I came home, reviewed the channel, and found this:

    Note. There is nothing sensitive in this scrap. Don't worry Sir Ralph or Soren.

    [10:31] * Togas has joined #apolytonisdg
    [10:31] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Togas
    [10:41] {Trip> heya Togas
    [10:41] {Trip> interesting comment about GS :P
    [10:41] {Trip> I'm sure they'll be pleased to see that one
    [10:43] {Togas> f*ck them
    [10:43] {Togas> Why am I not surprised that GS is the only team who says "we don't want to break up join new teams"
    [10:43] {Trip> I know
    [10:43] {Togas> we're a TRUE TEAM
    [10:44] {Togas> not like you idiots
    [10:44] {Togas>
    [10:44] {Trip> LoL
    [10:44] {Trip> Aeson said he'd join another team
    [10:44] {Togas> I guess that's a start
    [10:45] {Togas> anyhow, one idea I liked from the thread was possibly making a smaller game, instead of an 8 team one
    [10:45] {Trip> that could work
    [10:45] {Trip> 5 teams on a small map
    [10:45] {Togas> maybe making a "less serious" 4 team game on a small map
    [10:45] {Togas> 5 teams is better
    [10:45] {Trip> however many people we can find
    [10:45] {Togas> better politics with 5 teams
    [10:46] {Trip> 15 or so people right now
    [10:46] {Togas> get anyone who wanted to join the first one, but was too late to join
    [10:46] {Trip> the idea has yet to seep down to the less active and people who don't hover over the forums yet :P
    [10:46] {Trip> I'm really curious as to what GS is suggesting
    [10:46] {Trip> keep ALL the teams the same for another game?
    [10:47] {Togas> GS wants to keep THEIR team the same ... whatever we do is up to us, as we won't be able to beat them regardless
    [10:47] {Togas> probably invite some really good people from other sites to compete against THEM
    [10:47] {Togas> they're the Poly All Star team
    [10:48] {Trip> if redstar designs the map, we should hire him to give GS a 1-tile tundra island ;P
    [10:48] {Togas> We should have a mapdesigner/historian
    [10:49] {Trip> like mongoose
    [10:49] {Trip> I'm still recruiting vondrack for Sunshine ;P
    [10:49] {Togas> bah
    [10:49] {Togas> Vondrack is too busy
    [10:49] * Trip will wear down his moral fiber one day
    ...
    [16:53] * ZargonX has quit IRC (Quit: )
    [16:53] {E_T_playing_PBEM> doh, I was just about to sent it
    [16:55] {E_T_playing_PBEM> 4 game #2 sent
    [16:55] {E_T_playing_PBEM> BRB
    [16:59] {Trip>
    [17:01] {Togas> Funny how those GS guys get so riled up about someone saying they're egotistical
    [17:01] * BigFree\Asleep is now known as BigFree
    [17:01] {Trip> LoL
    [17:01] {Trip> heya BF
    [17:01] {Togas> I don't know why that would bother them so much
    [17:01] {BigFree> heya all
    [17:13] * vondrack is now known as vondrack|asleep_til_4amGMT
    [17:16] {Trip> hiya
    [17:18] * E_T_playing_PBEM is now known as E_T_out_to_store
    [17:40] {BigFree> Trip?
    [17:40] {Trip> hm?
    [17:40] {BigFree> come to FAM
    [17:41] {Trip> I thought E_T had 5 PBEM games to play :P
    [17:51] * Togas has quit IRC (Quit: )
    [17:55] {E_T_out_to_store> Yeah, and I had to go tothe store, too
    ...
    [18:54] {Trip> I like hockey
    [19:01] * nye_nothere is now known as notyoueither
    [19:01] {notyoueither> turn is here.
    [19:01] {notyoueither> i'm gonna wait a bit though. i would like to chat with mwia if i get a chance.
    [19:02] {BigFree> cool
    [19:12] * Togas has joined #apolytonisdg
    [19:12] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Togas
    [19:14] {notyoueither> 'f*ck them' ???
    [19:16] {notyoueither> Care to tell me where this crap is coming from, Togas?
    [19:18] * GeneralTacticus|sleep is now known as GeneralTacticus
    [19:19] {notyoueither> I guess not...
    [19:20] {Trip> he's been idle for a while
    [19:21] {notyoueither> he just joined
    [19:21] {Trip> didn't see that :P
    [19:22] {Trip> 2 to 0 Avs!
    [19:22] {Trip>
    [19:23] {notyoueither> Go Quebec!
    [19:23] {notyoueither> oops.
    [19:23] {Trip>
    [19:23] {notyoueither> talk about robbed. their team moves and wins the cup the next year. :/
    [19:24] {Trip> it was the location's influence
    [19:24] {notyoueither> the east was tough then, so you may be correct.
    [19:24] {Togas> NYE -- I'll address your "concern" when I'm done with the save.
    [19:24] {Trip> bah :P
    [19:25] {notyoueither> ok
    [19:27] {Trip> they just smacked Roy
    [19:27] {Trip>
    [19:27] {notyoueither> smack 'em again!
    [19:27] {notyoueither> don cherry is on.
    [19:28] {Trip> psha :P
    [19:28] {notyoueither> he seems to be wearing my couch. hth did he get that?
    [19:30] {notyoueither> there is a video of him to the tune of zz top 'sharpe dressed man' very funny.
    ...
    (\__/)
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  • #2
    Sorry, there will be a slight delay before I post the chat with Togas.
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    Comment


    • #3
      The Chat

      Session Start: Wed Apr 16 19:46:42 2003
      Session Ident: Togas
      [19:46] Session Ident: Togas (~tom_ogas@adsl-63-196-117-61.dsl.frsn01.pacbell.net)
      [19:46] {Togas> I don't think you want to talk to me about my feelings and what caused me to make that statement.
      [19:47] {notyoueither> why?
      [19:47] {Togas> You may want to read the context first, that should answer your questions.
      [19:47] {notyoueither> i am baffled why you seem to have such a large hate on.
      [19:48] {Togas> I don't think you want to get into it.
      [19:48] {notyoueither> better now, here, than later elsewhere. i think
      [19:48] {notyoueither> cause your pissing off a lot of people.
      [19:49] {notyoueither> and i honestly can't see why.
      [19:49] {Togas> Egos and attitudes piss me off, and if my being pissed off makes them pissed off, perhaps it comes to light, perhaps not.
      [19:49] {notyoueither> where is the attitude?
      [19:49] {Togas> Your team has a horrible attitude.
      [19:49] {notyoueither> bull ****.
      [19:50] {notyoueither> in what way horrible?
      [19:50] {Togas> They do and you do.
      [19:50] {Togas> We constantly discuss it, my team, off topic.
      [19:50] {notyoueither> why?
      [19:50] {Togas> with other people.
      [19:50] {Togas> Because it pisses us off
      [19:50] {Togas> No one likes to be treated like "lesser" individuals
      [19:50] {notyoueither> what pisses you off?
      [19:50] {Togas> Your team's attitude
      [19:50] {notyoueither> no one is being treated as lesser individuals
      [19:51] {Togas> Listen, I don't see the point in arguing over this because clearly I feel and people I talk to feel that we are
      [19:51] {Togas> and I don't have the patience to try to do an ego-intervention.
      [19:52] {notyoueither> ahh, ok. well then. step off or tempers are going to get very ugly, very fast.
      [19:52] {Togas> I'd appreciate if you guy would step off the arrogance
      [19:52] {notyoueither> you seem to be projecting.
      [19:53] {Togas> you seem to be in denial
      [19:53] {notyoueither> of what?
      [19:53] {Togas> OK, I'll try to briefly explain....
      [19:54] {notyoueither> ok
      [19:54] {Togas> In the beginning GS gathers together ... recruits ... a team of stat forum posters.
      [19:54] {Togas> guys who have excellent reputations, and who have tons of experience.
      [19:55] {Togas> they all get together in one team, each of them knowing they're the best, and as the days and months go on, that belief ... that opinion festers into an uber-confidence.
      [19:56] {Togas> in time, as you catalog the "mistakes" of your opponents, that uber-confidence leads to a natural conclusion : We're clearly better than them.
      [19:56] {Togas> noses are raised, ego inflate, cooperation with such lesser players decreases.
      [19:57] {Togas> then ISDG starts and the GSers are surprised at how many of the "lesser" players are getting into positions of power.
      [19:57] {Togas> Eventually (thank god) the decision is to try to work together and Dominae does an excellent job at briding the gap between the strat-forum experts and the regular Demo gamers.
      [19:57] {Togas> but the fact still remains ... the GOOD players are dragged down by the lesser players.
      [19:58] {Togas> a fact that, thankfully, doesn't exist in team GS
      [19:58] {Togas> where only the brightest and the best exist.
      [19:58] {notyoueither> you know what?
      [19:58] {Togas> When the upstart and "worthless" Vox declares war on GS, .... the egos are unleashed
      [19:59] {Togas> in every post and every put down and every cynical remark.
      [19:59] {Togas> after a while, those of us outside of it get tired of the stench
      [20:00] {notyoueither> we are expected to be silent while 'grog fought like a girl' made the rounds?
      [20:00] {Togas> the boiling point for me was when you posted how you don't want to work with anyone else, as you have your team.
      [20:00] {notyoueither> why am i in the isdg?
      [20:00] {notyoueither> why did i suggest to trip that he run for moi, and support you?
      [20:00] {Togas> Because it represents the best of Poly
      [20:01] {Togas> and you are the best of poly
      [20:01] {notyoueither> me?
      [20:01] {Togas> one of the best
      [20:01] {notyoueither> biggest posters, maybe...
      [20:02] {Togas> no one can stop you or object to cliques being formed and people wanting to only play with certain people.
      [20:02] {notyoueither> we're no better at this than most any other team. many of us know that.
      [20:02] {Togas> but none of us have to be happy about it either.
      [20:02] {Togas> Frankly, I don't believe that anyone on your team buys into that, NYE
      [20:03] {notyoueither> oh, it is only too true. yes, some of our members have high opinions. i have seen the same in some posters from other teams on various topics.
      [20:05] {notyoueither> i myself, and sir ralph are certainly aware that there is a lot of talent on the other teams.
      [20:05] {Togas> I'm sorry but I don't believe that. I doubt that you can review the way your team has played the game and honestly say that you're "no better" than any other team, as I continue to see posts speaking with disdain about how Vox has played the game, set up their cities, carried out their public works, etc.
      [20:05] {notyoueither> they have not exactly done well. have you seen the map?
      [20:06] {Togas> And I'm sure that if you've seen our map your team would be whispering the same thing.
      [20:07] {notyoueither> maybe, but i thought your score was rather large.
      [20:07] {Togas> score = population + territory
      [20:07] {notyoueither> yes, which means you must be doing well at building, no?
      [20:08] {Togas> that doesn't really say if we're managing it well. We might be. Who knows, but Im sure we could easily be critiqued. But it's beside the point
      [20:08] {notyoueither> yes. it is.
      [20:08] {Togas> I'm happy to see guys like Aeson posting very humours articles on the war.
      [20:08] {notyoueither> me too. and many others
      [20:08] {Togas> And there's been some great jokes and play back & forth.
      [20:09] {notyoueither> that has been our intent.
      [20:09] {notyoueither> have fun.
      [20:09] {Togas> however, Trip can't view the save. Has no screenshots. I asked him if he was getting to report from both sides so we could find out in the end how the war went.
      [20:09] {notyoueither> however, most of us are not role players. i certainly am not.
      [20:09] {Togas> he tells me that he can't get GS saves, screenshots, and that his questions get ignored.
      [20:10] {notyoueither> hense my wanting to keep gs together. those who want to stay.
      [20:10] {Togas> You know ... if anyone wants to join my group, I let them in
      [20:10] {notyoueither> he asked question 6 hours before the war started. we were a bit... preoccupied.
      [20:10] {Togas> If anyones to to join yoru group, they get blackballed.
      [20:10] {Togas> they have to be "good enough" for GS.
      [20:10] {notyoueither> not true. we just let someone in.
      [20:11] {Togas> only the ones who are perceived as talented and 'worthy'
      [20:11] {notyoueither> most of us did not knwo him.
      [20:11] {notyoueither> that's not true, togas. just known.
      [20:11] {Togas> that sort of attitude exudes an overconfidence that you guys probably don't even realize.
      [20:11] {notyoueither> we have many members who are very active, as leaders, who are not known for strat stuff.
      [20:11] {Togas> Sir Ralph claims he will blackball any Vox people after you kill them because they have shown themselves to not be worthy
      [20:12] {Togas> they're all very well known.
      [20:12] {Togas> I read these posts. What am I supposed to think?
      [20:12] {notyoueither> where did he say that? is that where he says he would do it because they broke a treaty? when he was angry?
      [20:12] {Togas> I believe it's in the Immortal Beloved thread
      [20:13] {notyoueither> yes. and he says it because of honour. not skill.
      [20:13] {notyoueither> and he was angry.
      [20:13] {Togas> so I suppose that makes it OK.
      [20:13] {Togas> and I suppose he really isn't egotistical.
      [20:13] {Togas> he just appears that way?
      [20:14] {notyoueither> there are actually several membes of vox i would be glad to have. they are either good with the public, or experience mp players.
      [20:14] {Togas> you'd like to have them because they have skills.
      [20:14] {notyoueither> yes, i would value some of them for skills.
      [20:14] {notyoueither> others because they would be good fun.
      [20:15] {Togas> there are a lot of people out there who are good fun.
      [20:15] {notyoueither> sure. but people have to be known, or the risk of a plant is too high.
      [20:15] {Togas> but the message posted is that you're not interested in being on any new teams or breaking up GS ... you want to stick with your clique.
      [20:16] {Togas> and like I said, you have that right.
      [20:16] {notyoueither> yes. i want to stick with my team. i know that not all of them will stay. so be it. but i viewed these teasm as longer term right from the get go.
      [20:17] {notyoueither> i had hoped gs and some of the other teasm would get into inter site games.
      [20:17] {Togas> you guys can do whatever you want.
      [20:17] {notyoueither> of course we can.
      [20:18] {Togas> Just know that by being inclusive and exclusionary, you're going to piss people off
      [20:18] {notyoueither> too bad. not all of us are looking for the same thing.
      [20:18] {Togas> and I'm not the sort that happily tolerates that sort of behavior.
      [20:19] {notyoueither> what i have a hard time with, and many in gs, is that we be attacked for our preferences.
      [20:19] {Togas> You're being attacked for your attitude
      [20:19] {notyoueither> what sort of behaviour? that with which you do not agree?
      [20:19] {Togas> The attitude
      [20:19] {notyoueither> we aren't Role Players, Togas. Joining a meat team or sunshine holds no interest for me, and many others.
      [20:20] {Togas> And you have no interest in having a fun game with the rest of us, I hear you.
      [20:20] {notyoueither> bull ****. i am in the isdg. i am in pbem.
      [20:21] {Togas> but you stepped it up, complaining how we'd straight jacket you with some new concept
      [20:21] {notyoueither> but i view gs as something more long lasting than you view rp. i guess i am a bad person.
      [20:21] {Togas> No. You're just a snobby sort.
      [20:22] {notyoueither> well, the direction of discussion is a game where only rople players will be welcome. how inclusive is that?
      [20:22] {Togas> I don't recall that being stated or implied.
      [20:22] {notyoueither> really? sunshine will start wars?
      [20:22] {Togas> what I DO recall being stated explicity was that many people were hoping to break up the cliques a bit, mix up the teams, have a fun game
      [20:23] {Togas> my theme suggestions were my own.
      [20:23] {Togas> if you objected to that, oh well
      [20:23] {notyoueither> a spam fest, you mean.
      [20:25] {Togas> Ah. My posts were spam.
      [20:25] {notyoueither> No, but a demo game devoted to rp'ing is just about that. and it excludes anyone who is not a rp'er.
      [20:26] {Togas> That's not at all what you said in the thread, but it is a very creative argument.
      [20:26] {Togas> kudos
      [20:28] {notyoueither> no, what i said in the thread was said because i though gs would be interested in the game, and i wanted to keep open the possibility of gs participating.
      [20:28] {notyoueither> i don;t think that will happen, at this point.
      [20:28] {Togas> But only if your team, as a whole, participates.
      [20:28] {Togas> because you are an exclusive sort of crew
      [20:29] {Togas> who only likes to work with certain people.
      [20:30] {Togas> You're very polite about it. Very respectful. But in the end the message is still the same.
      [20:30] {notyoueither> Tom, do you have some sort of complex on this?
      [20:30] {notyoueither> I already told you, i suggested to trip that he run for MoW. And I supported you for FAM. Where is my elitism?
      [20:30] {Togas> NYE, back in the 60s in the south the argument was that we have our water fountains, they have their water fountains
      [20:31] {Togas> we have our seats on the bus, they have their seats on the bus.
      [20:31] {notyoueither> So I guess any foot ball club, or track club, they must all be racsists, right?
      [20:31] {Togas> we have our schools, they have their schools ... it's an attitude that I dislike tremendously
      [20:32] {notyoueither> so you have a lack of understanding of the concept and attraction of teams. OK, I can understand that.
      [20:32] {notyoueither> But you are incorrect in what you see as mpotivating people other than yourself.
      [20:32] {Togas> I see us as one community. Like a bunch of kids on the playground. The kids pick teams, play sports against each other, and in next time pick new teams.
      [20:33] {Togas> but a group of kids on the playground refuse to be on a team with anyone but their friends.
      [20:33] {notyoueither> well. i don;t share your views. i must be a bad person. worthy of comparison with southern racsists.
      [20:33] {Togas> that is how I see this.
      [20:33] {Togas> I know you don't share my views.
      [20:33] {Togas> And I told you from the beginning that this wouldn't solve anything.
      [20:34] {notyoueither> you are very intolerant of those who do not.
      [20:34] {Togas> unfortunately you are the intolerant one. I actually will team up with anyone.
      [20:35] {Togas> and you are right, I am not very tolerant of intolerant people. I suppose, in a way, that makes me intolerant.
      [20:36] {notyoueither> So, the fact that you differ with me about the place of some of the teams from the ptw dg, makes me intolerant?
      [20:36] {Togas> no, my differing doesn't change how you are.
      [20:36] {Togas> behavior makes the man
      [20:36] {notyoueither> well, this is actually about you, and how screwed up your views of gs are.
      [20:37] {Togas> Oh, it's about me?
      [20:37] {notyoueither> yes.
      [20:37] {Togas> please.
      [20:37] {notyoueither> i believe it was you who launched into attacks which have many people on or near boil.
      [20:37] {Togas> I call a spade a spade. I don't pull punches and I don't kiss ass.
      [20:38] {notyoueither> well, if you knew what you were punching, it might help.
      [20:38] {Togas> people get offended because I point out egotism and cliquishness.
      [20:38] {Togas> oh, I see. If I knew how proud you guys were?
      [20:38] {Togas> I know. It's very obvious.
      [20:38] {notyoueither> no. people get offended because you were full of **** on this topic.
      [20:39] {Togas> if I'm full of ****, there's no reason to be offended.
      [20:39] {notyoueither> well. that is nice. i guess we should all just put you on ignore, is that it?
      [20:39] {Togas> go ahead. That would be very adult of you.
      [20:40] {notyoueither> about as adult as you previous reply.
      [20:40] {Togas> NYE, do whatever the hell you want.
      [20:40] {notyoueither> i most likely will.
      [20:40] {Togas> I'm just speaking my mind.
      [20:40] {Togas> you're the one who wanted to discuss this with me.
      [20:41] {Togas> It's criticism. I know you guys don't like being criticised.
      [20:41] {notyoueither> ok. but your mind is creating a lot of animosity. what does that do for you community?
      [20:41] {Togas> Why don't you ask some of the people in my community
      [20:42] {notyoueither> well. now we on gs are not part of your community, is that right?
      [20:42] {Togas> You know. I was hoping you guys might want to open up and be a part of the general community
      [20:42] {Togas> but you don't.
      [20:42] {notyoueither> some of likely do, but as i said, some of us have longer term ideas about the team.
      [20:43] {Togas> those who want to, I'm very happy and releaved.
      [20:43] {Togas> and I will personally apologize to them.
      [20:43] {notyoueither> why, because they fit your pigeon holes of behaviour?
      [20:43] {notyoueither> they kiss your ass?
      [20:43] {Togas> because they're accepting of others.
      [20:44] {notyoueither> so are we togas.
      [20:44] {Togas> prove it.
      [20:44] {notyoueither> any who wanted to could join gs, if they are known, and we need members.
      [20:44] {Togas> I form my opinions based on observed behavior
      [20:45] {notyoueither> what behaviour is that?
      [20:45] {notyoueither> picking up LoA, because I knew him from OT?
      [20:45] {notyoueither> Vulture, because he posted some in strat?
      [20:46] {notyoueither> Ixnay, even though he barely plays civ3?
      [20:46] {notyoueither> asaik
      [20:46] {Togas> good.
      [20:46] {notyoueither> we rejected a few who were completely unknown, or were known trouble makers.
      [20:47] {Togas> There's the taint of the vox war posts that hopefully will go away in time.
      [20:47] {notyoueither> so, where's the clique?
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      Comment


      • #4
        [20:48] {Togas> but you know me. I call it like it is. I don't protest just to cause problems.
        [20:48] {notyoueither> if you wanted in, you would be in.
        [20:48] {notyoueither> so too just about anyone else anyone else knew from somewhere.
        [20:48] {notyoueither> and we needed members.
        [20:49] {notyoueither> i agree, you call em as you see em.
        [20:49] {notyoueither> is it possible you ever see 'em slightly incorrectly?
        [20:49] {Togas> Last thing I need is to cause a mess with a bunch of well known Poly guys.
        [20:49] {Togas> and it's possible that you aren't seeing things correctly either.
        [20:50] {notyoueither> the mess is on, togas. believe it or not, this chat was an attempt to clean it up.
        [20:50] {Togas> so ask a few people who are on the outside
        [20:50] {Togas> people who's opinions you can trust.
        [20:50] {Togas> if they say i'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
        [20:51] {notyoueither> i freely admit there is a perception problem with gs.
        [20:51] {Togas> but if they point out some of the thigns that are bugging me, consider that perhaps I have a valid beef
        [20:51] {notyoueither> there has been ever since vel joined.
        [20:51] {notyoueither> what is soo scary about gs, anyway? why are we soo good?
        [20:52] {notyoueither> vel
        [20:52] {Togas> it's not that you ARE good, it's that you believe you're good. Have very logical reasons to think so. And the result of such beliefs tends to be an attitude that is unfavorable to outside parties.
        [20:52] {notyoueither> vel's last post was sometime back when we were picking civs.
        [20:53] {Togas> think of the US in the Iraqi invasion.
        [20:53] {notyoueither> really? i though we were easy to deal with diplomatically. too easy for my tastes.
        [20:53] {Togas> The US believes they're right and knows they are the only super power.
        [20:54] {Togas> but it results in the rest of the world being unhappy at their "attitude."
        [20:54] {notyoueither> we are the only super power? why? when have we been pushy?
        [20:54] {Togas> It's an analogy
        [20:54] {Togas> about perceptions
        [20:54] {notyoueither> where is the analogy?
        [20:54] {Togas> funny.
        [20:55] {notyoueither> first, we're a clique, except we're not.
        [20:55] {notyoueither> now, we have a bad attitude. but where?
        [20:56] {Togas> my point was made a long time ago, and there's no need to restate it. It's about my perception of your team.
        [20:56] {Togas> my perception comes from what I have read
        [20:56] {Togas> and my perception will change when I see a different sort of behavior.
        [20:56] {notyoueither> so, no one from gs is allowed to trash talk?
        [20:56] {Togas> you can do whatever you want, NYE
        [20:56] {notyoueither> of course we can.
        [20:56] {Togas> but if you care about how people perceive you, find out.
        [20:56] {notyoueither> but you said something about community.
        [20:57] {Togas> ask people who will be honest with you.
        [20:57] {Togas> If I'm full of ****, you'll know and be able to disguard me as a bitter outsider.
        [20:57] {notyoueither> i already said, there is a perception problem.
        [20:57] {Togas> and instead of being bitter back and ignoring and taking to the next level, you can be assured that I'm silly
        [20:58] {Togas> but if you get feedback that says you guys need to tone it down, please listen.
        [20:58] {notyoueither> tone down what? an example please?
        [20:58] {Togas> I've said my peace.
        [20:59] {notyoueither> alright. however, you know that i am also one to call em as i see em, yes?
        [21:00] {Togas> but know this .... when my team says that "GoW might get mad..." and I'll say "F*ck Them" and it means just that. "So what?"
        [21:00] {Togas> so don't think that my cussing was any bit unusual.
        [21:00] {Togas> it's an expression.
        [21:00] {notyoueither> i call bull
        [21:00] {notyoueither> you are very bitter about this.
        [21:01] {Togas> Yeah, I was pissed off at your attitude and the attitude of many of the people on your team.
        [21:01] {notyoueither> yes. and i'm pissed with you. just so you know when the flames errupot after the next inflamatory post.
        [21:02] {Togas> and ...?
        [21:02] {notyoueither> and... just that.
        [21:02] {Togas> just what?
        [21:02] {notyoueither> slag us, and i will not be silent. i will not be private.
        [21:02] {Togas> you want to get into a flame war?
        [21:03] {notyoueither> you are free to see things how you will. i will respond when required.
        [21:03] {Togas> I don't think that will help your case, really.
        [21:03] {notyoueither> that's me, not gs.
        [21:06] {notyoueither> anyways, think about it. clique? incorrect, as I've shown.
        [21:06] {notyoueither> perception problem? yes.
        [21:06] {notyoueither> but perception is not always reality.
        [21:07] {Togas>
        [21:07] {Togas> whatever you say, NYE.
        [21:07] {notyoueither> bye
        [21:07] {Togas> later
        Session Close: Wed Apr 16 21:07:40 2003
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        Comment


        • #5
          The guy has a major problem with us, and at this point, with me. I thought you all should know, because this guy has been guiding the dagger.

          I have no idea how some of you view this team. If you regard it as some transient thing, or as more than that. As is obvious, I have always regarded it as more than 'just this game'. Maybe I should drop that now. However, I will not drop it to satisfy the complex of someone who has some... rather interesting views on anyone who doesn't want to use the 'play ground' the way he wants to.

          All I can say at this point is that this is very bizarre. I am honestly scratching my head. Why is any of this so serious for any one to go out of their way to pee other people off? I am baffled, but maybe I have missed something.
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          Comment


          • #6
            Hmmmm....

            I think he has a point, I believe that he is overly sensitive to the issue; however. We seem to be playing into a Goliath Ceasar complex?

            How does this team present less confidence than it really has?

            It is a fine line between confidence and cocky.

            I guess we appear haughty. How to be less so? Do we want to be less so?

            I for one have been regulated to lurker status, only because I am swamped with RL. Not because I feel unwelcomed or not honored. Actually I feel quite honered as an individual. I feel terrible for dropping the ball as the Vox diplomat. I was simply overwhelmed by the pace of the game + RL

            Now I am not percieved as a "strat-forum-ringer" type, but I feel that when I am in the flow of the turns, my stratagies can stand up with the others out there. For me, it is just matter of getting caught up....

            As for "duration".... I will always be gust, gale or drop in the Gathering Storm, and would be happy to be on a team with any one of you again. As for GS permanence (beyond memory and archives)...Never occured to me.... There can be only one....no?


            Mss
            Remember.... pillage first then burn.

            Comment


            • #7
              Reminds me of Sirian... uses some of the same phrases and definitely forms and targets his statements the same way (derogatory and undefined).

              I've had a lot more interaction with Sirian, so I'll describe why I think he says what he says, as it seems like it may very well apply to why Togas is saying the same sort of things for the same sort of reasons. (So this isn't psychoanalysis of Togas, even if it does apply. It's analysis of a certain mindset that Togas may or may not be working off of. Sorry also that it's terribly long, but it's probably only a very small part of the problem even as such.)

              -----------------

              Sirian participated in the first few GOTM's over at CivFanatics. He's a very good player, but not really into micromanaging and such. Because he doesn't like doing the little things that add to score in Firaxis' scoring system, he realized he's never going to win the GOTM competition the way it was set up. The 'milking' game just wasn't the type of game he enjoyed playing.

              My first interaction with him was when he was trying to define what is and what is not an exploit (ie: spirit of the game). The GOTM was being run by Matrix, and his say was final... but he always tried to keep the rules based on what the community as a whole decided on. Sirian didn't agree with the rest of the community (no one does exactly, it's compromise in action that defines a community ideology), and left to help found RBCiv so he could form it to be what he felt Civ should be. That's perfectly ok, everyone has that right.

              He left off by insulting basically the whole community as exploiters and cheaters, even though he 'hides' his accusations by not directing them at anyone in particular and making terribly long and redundant posts. He came back to play a GOTM several months later (it was a deity game, having made comments that only deity was worthy of him or some such), did relatively well (only a handfull won, he had one of the lower scoring games of those that did), said he didn't care about how he finished, and then went back to insulting the community again... We (the GOTM community in general) don't like the things he likes, and so he goes so far as to define our likes as his own... and that we aren't being true to ourselves or the spirit of the game by playing the way we choose to.

              As far as I can tell, he's got it in his mind that we all think we are better than him because he doesn't score as high as some other people do. He thinks that because he thinks he is better than the people who score less than he does. It's his outlook though that is bringing him to that delusion. He's just fighting back, not realizing it's his own unfounded opinions that he disagrees with. He defines scoring as important to himself (even though he adamantly argues that he doesn't care about scoring or placement at all), and he can't see that other people could think differently. Sure there are others who define their enjoyment through the scoring as well, but most don't seem to.

              He just doesn't 'work' in the GOTM environment. It's too bad because he certainly has a lot to offer, and has done a great deal at RBCiv to be proud of. But the way the GOTM is set up touches too near his own 'faults' (as he see's them consciously or not) and so it becomes a very personal fight to him.

              -----------------

              To some extent we all do it. We see someone with 'more' or 'better' as we would define it, and jealousy kicks in, scewing our perception of that person. It doesn't mean that person feels they have 'more' or 'better' themselves, but it's human nature to project it onto them. I know my trigger is usually a guy with a good looking girl... my initial impression is the guy is a jerk, even though I'd have no idea if he was or not. Probably because I tend to be a jerk around girls I care about. I try not to let the perception affect me, but it's there.

              What I think Togas see's here is a bunch of guys with what he feels are good looking girls (to use the analogy). It doesn't matter if we define what we have the same way he does or not, his perception of us is going to be based on his definition of the 'worth' of whatever it is and how he would feel if he was in possession of such. When he calls names, it's showing his own conflict with himself, his 'intellect' attacking his 'instinct'. He just projects the 'instinct' onto his target(s).

              That doesn't really bother me much, it's more the writing style and the intellectual deceptions in it that I dislike (and yes, a big part of that is because I struggle with the same thing, not in the same way IMO, but it's the same sort of thing). If he were to come out and say "Aeson is egotistical and cliquish", so be it, I really don't care (take that as egotism if you will... I don't really care ). When he targets all of us, but doesn't have the balls to actually address anyone in particular, that's what makes me upset. It's a method of protecting himself, as then he has the fallback of "I wasn't talking about you, you're the exception" if anyone calls him on his BAMing (to steal a phrase from the OT, it just fits so well), along with being indirect enough that if he does want to continue once he's called out he can pull the "I didn't address you, but you seem to be taking it personally, must fit?" type cop out.

              ----------------

              Anyways, that's what I see in what Togas is writing.

              Comment


              • #8
                I especially loved the part about Trip not receiving a game save and screenshots. What utter bull****. Trip is and was always welcome to be included in our mailing list. It was him who refused this, for whatever reasons. Our players have enough things to do and I don't see the necessity to add the responsibility to upload and link every shot every turn just to please one person, who could as well bother himself only once by getting a bigger email account. Sorry Trip, if you read this, it's nothing against you, just the way I see it. It's the way our team played from the beginning, everyone had to adapt to it, and I see no reason to change this just for you.

                I won't join this game as long as Togas is in. I don't have a problem with anyone else and with any team else. As a prove may serve, that I joined the German team for the ISDG (well, where I'm not very active, though). So far about me being "cliquish" and "dismissive towards others". And since Togas one of the game initiators and for certain won't leave it, I think I'll find something better to do with my scarce spare time than to play in a game where I'm constantly flamed by someone I hardly offended in any way.

                Comment


                • #9
                  OMG...
                  If I had to chat with this guy for as much as 80+ minutes, I would begin to have steam come out of my ears about halfway through. I can't believe that you've managed it NYE. You must have incredible tolerance and patience, and I respect you for that.

                  Excuse me if I'd stay out of this discussion. I don't think there's anything that I could add to it.
                  "Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
                  And the truth isn't what you want to see,
                  Close your eyes, and let music set you free..."
                  - Phantom of the Opera

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Beyond insulting.
                    The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                    Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      NYE, back in the 60s in the south the argument was that we have our water fountains, they have their water fountains
                      [20:31] {Togas> we have our seats on the bus, they have their seats on the bus.
                      A variant of BAM (instead of Baseless Assertion Man, we have Baseless Analogy Man!)

                      This sucks, though. What we have here, to say the least, is a perception problem. A powerful member of another team basically hates us, and is clearly pulling strings to try and bring us down. We saw this coming early on when the team formed up, and in the early "trash talk" thread.

                      Right or wrong (IMO, wrong) the other teams (at least some) think we're arrogant SOBs, and would dearly love to see us knocked out. So, I think we should shut up in the general forum about the Voxidiot's poor gameplay (I was guilty of this at one point too, so mea culpa in part) and try to avoid coming off as "snobby."

                      I think Togas is way off the deep end with his perceptions, but my opinion doesn't matter when it comes to relations with other teams. THEIR opinions do.

                      This is a nasty little mess we have here.

                      -Arrian
                      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree with Arrian here, and others elsewhere... time to shut up, unless a given communique is part of our plan.

                        BTW, can someone point me to SR and Togas' public altercation?
                        The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                        Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It was in the thread regarding starting a second PTW Demogame.

                          By the way, I do think NYE's comments re: keeping GS together, GS being a team, etc, may have pissed some people off who were already annoyed with us (not a knock on you, NYE, I think of GS similarly... I just dunno if I would have come out and said it). I kinda winced when I read those posts and the responses thereto. We just gotta be a little careful not to feed the perception that we're arrogant & elitist, that's all.

                          -Arrian
                          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            On Togas-

                            That guys got problems. He has really wrapped a lot of himself into this game, not to say we haven't, but I doubt any of us would feel pure hatred for someone on another team.

                            I was angry at first, but now I just feel pity for him. He needs to take a vacation from this game and gain some perspective.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Theseus
                              BTW, can someone point me to SR and Togas' public altercation?
                              There was none. He posted dismissive, insulting and generalizing stuff about GS, I said that once I'm not welcome in his game, I leave it out. Not even in a bad tone. I haven't talked a word with him personally.

                              This guy needs psychiatric counselling, if you ask me. He has a serious small penis complex.

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