DIPLO: Legoland Comments

[DeepO]

Hmmm... I see your points, and I agree. However the follow up as you put is is exactly why I think we should prepare what to say, it's obvious that this needs some preparation. nye, you mention 3 of my points (Inchon, their feelings, we're preserve RP), and even if you're not proposing to actively solicit information it's not so far from what I said.

Getting in touch the moment they get their save would indeed be good (which is basically the same as when RP is about to pass it on), but most likely, that will mean I can't contact Vondrack, and someone else has to take over.

and Aeson, you're very right in that hope implies weakness, however my idea of using it was that we should not try to appear overpowerful, even arrogant either. But I can easily see your points, especially that whatever we say can go to ND and GoW, and should therefore be approached very cautiously. I don't think Lego will give information to ND or GoW, but you never know. I do think, however, that if we don't keep contact with them fluent, they will have no reason whatsoever anymore to keep things from them, and for the moment, I'd rather be their lapdog then face them as pure opponents.

BTW, would any good come from disclosing the deal we rejected from ND and GoW: we get a couple of cities for our help against RP, until Lego is destroyed?

DeepO

[Aeson]

'Weak' was perhaps the wrong word. 'Vulnerable' would have been closer to what I mean, but still isn't quite right. We can't actually look weak with our city sizes, infrastructure, and military the way it is, and we can only look vulnerable in certain theaters, not overall.

We can make ourselves look out of position, which a team would want to take advantage of to help nullify our other advantages.

So we can downplay our overall position, but probably shouldn't downplay any specific position too much. We don't want to ever show our Achilles heal, or give the other teams the idea that we have one (unless we are setting a trap ). Make sense?

-------------------

I wouldn't be suprised if ND, GoW, and Lego aren't having much the same talks about invading GS as GoW/ND approached us about in regards to Lego. Lego is smart enough to realize that the GoW/ND talks about an 'invincible' home base after railroads is applicable to both of us equally. If they are going to try to kill one island nation, they would have much the same motivation to kill the other as well.

[DeepO]

Agree Aeson.

as off 5 minutes from now, I will be unavailable, so in case Lego needs to be contacted, please do so...

DeepO

[Shiber]

Lego are having a chat. I can't tell how many people are participating, only that #legoland is being used.
My guess is that Vondrack and ZargonX are the only ones involves, since they're the only Legolanders that are currently using Apolyton, and therefore it's nothing serious. I'll let you know if I find any evidence to indicate otherwise.
Btw, they need to play their turn.

[DeepO]

Lego chat will be starting in about 15 minutes or so (Vondrack was busy). I will keep extremely silent, just ask them about their intentions and ideas Re: this war.

For those interested: /join #babbelbox schermpje

(please, not too many people, this has to remain informal)

DeepO

[DeepO]

I hope last chat was as unrevealing as possible...

main points:
- we have 10 turns from now to research banking. Astro will get here in 8. Lego is going for any of the optional techs, as they want to trade invention from someone
- Vox is on 40-turn research, but they weren't really saying which one. Maybe better contact VBox over this
- For the moment, they are watching carefully what happens on Bob. They stay out of it, for the moment, but in case we would gain too much ground, they will intervene.
- Inchon hasn't been told to ND or GoW
- I thought I said only stuff to them that ND and GoW knew. E.g. they asked about the troops in the East, I told them GoW are in our territory. I did not comment on what we feel of that, or at least I tried to.
- They were worried about us getting many RP cities. I said that what we have for the moment woud be temporary (I hope that was okay). I told them what we would want to gain from the war, Lego thought it too be very vague
- They obviously anticipated more concrete info, but understood we couldn't give much.

more? I don't know... I'm exhausted, next time I miss this much sleep I let someone else do the talking, even if that means they will miss a familiar face.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Okay, it seems obvious we need to contact Lego again. I've got time for a chat this evening, so can try to grab Vondrack. If this needs to be done over PMs, we might be taking too long...

It's important that we keep our image as honorable clean (after all, we have been honorable all the way, so why let others spoil it). Which means we have to give away some info on what has happened diplomatically. I see 2 major points:
A: previous deals with GoW, and how they treated us
B: last deal, and how they tried to get us in on the RP war. Also includes the NAP, as it is obviously out in the open now.

I don't mind commenting on any of this, it doesn't look like GoW is ever going to be friendly to us again. Which means we have no reason anymore to keep negotiations secret.

so...
A1: scouting of GoW of Vox invasion: doctored screenshots
A2: getting a sea-RoP under promise of having an empty galley, not intended to land troops, landing troops 3 turns later from that empty galley
A3: 'technical state of war', because they wanted the chance to play their merc role, and enjoy the happiness. Only wanting to get peace the moment they could gain from it
A4: asking us where to land their mercs, asking us for a ruse, big display in public forum, doctored screenshots and all, while we were still in war.
A5: Selling Feudalism one turn before the NDA had transpired (which we only now discovered)

B1: AFAIK, we were offered a NAP before any talks about ganging up was been done. We declined
B2: We accepted the NAP once it became obvious there was going to be a war. A NAP seemed logical to close with GoW, as they were the smallest civ on Bob.
B3: We asked about plans for invasions, we then were informed of the ND contract on RP. We knew this at the time of Lego asking about it, but couldn't comment as it was secret
B4: We were asked to participate in the war. We never solicited our help by ourselves.
B5: Help could exist in two parts: either sail a coupld of galleys around RP, to draw defenders to the South. Or actively participate in the war, invading RP.
B6: payment was a problem: we wanted 3 cities permanently on Bob, to keep 1-turn galley crossings out of the possibilities. We were offered those 3 cities, temporary, until we conquered Lego, after which we could get part of Lego. We declined.
B7: Our NAP was being abused by GoW, to stall us. Last chat, they were talking about 'this is such a lengthy process, we will need several more weeks to get a deal in place.' In several weeks, there wouldn't have been anything left of RP.
B8: main idea in going through these negotiations was dual: on one hand seeing what the plans for conquest were on Bob before interfering (very little of the plans leaked to us), OTOH seeing if we would get the opportunity to become the 3rd Bob civ. But it was clear that GoW and ND wanted a 2-civ Bob
B9: at the same time, we were approached by RP, and made a deal with them, where we were going to protect them. Initially, this had the same payment as ND and GoW refused us: 3 coastal cities. This can change if we are forced to actually attack GoW and ND in their territory, instead of getting the territory back which they took of RP.

By being so open diplomatically, I hope to avoid any strategic questions. Also, by filling them in, we short-circuit any allegiations GoW can make about us.

Lastly, I hope it will give us some credit in asking about deals too: what was going on in the Vox war? who were the ones hiring GoW?

Comments please?

DeepO

[Arrian]

FYI - my understanding is that Vondrack doesn't think much of treaties in this game, and probably doesn't really care much about who is "right" and who is "wrong" between us and GoW.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Arrian, so he says... however the log will be read by most of Legoland and not Vondrack alone, and I'm pretty sure that if GoW is the only one able to discuss this with Lego, our standing with them will fall.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Bah.

If you feel the need to tell him something, just say that we didn't violate our NAP with GoW, and that's that. No need to dredge up things GoW has done in the past (sure, it shows a course of performance, but is ultimately irrelevent to the charge of GS dishonour).

-Arrian

[Aeson]

I agree with Arrian. Let GoW be the whiney one. If they ask about a specific situation, we can tell, but definitely don't bring up the 'GoW are liars' parts. It will look like we are trying to justify our own indiscretions, whether we have made them or not.

[DeepO]

okay... you have a point. We don't need to whine in private either. If asked, is it okay to mention these things, though?

DeepO

[Aeson]

I'd say so. The only real secret we have from Lego at this point is that we plan on beating up ND and GoW and taking a big chunk of Bob... and I'm sure they realize that will happen now.

GoW's threats have to be rather disconcerting for Lego, as we obviously won't be able to just stop after helping RP. GoW wants it to be a blood feud to the death... which means we can't leave them alive even if we want to.

[Arrian]

Good thing we've gotten Monarchy from RP, then. If this drags on, which I think it will, we might need it.

-Arrian

[zeit]

One thing we could mention is the CoL fiasco- Lego has been there, and tried to solve things out... I'm sure just mentioning it would be enough, if we want to counter-soil's GoW reputation in the eyes of Lego.

I don't think anymore is necessary, and perhaps bringing this issue from the dead is not needed, but if we want to say something back, this would be it.