DIPLO: Legoland Comments

[notyoueither]

DeepO. I am sorry that I have to ask you to stop the free exchange of information with Lego. Why are you disclosing our battle plans and rough estimations of troop deployment with a side who could be coming in against us in a few turns, or could be passing information on to ND and GoW?

I am sorry to be blunt, but this has to stop.

[Shiber]

Well, at least they trust us now as a credible source of information.
Shall we relay some false information that we would like GoW and ND to believe to be true and that Lego cannot know that is false?

[DeepO]

I thought I didn't disclose anything that would not be known next turn by the ND-GoW alliance? I mean, they are going to see our troops (well, not what troops, just that there are troops present), they will see our new city, and they will see NM returning to RP. The reason why we did the exchange is far less exotic than whatever reason they can come up with, I thought it didn't harm.

The only other comment I made was that we were commited to defending RP, instead of let them die and invade North Bob while the South crumbles. If that was a disclosion of our battle plans (which I thought were actually a bit contrary to that, the only real surprise attack would be an invasion of either ND or GoW), my apologies. I thought this would help to defuse the situation, that this kind of message would keep them out for as long as possible. If we would not have said that we try to defend RP, but instead left the possibility we're going for an invasion up North, Lego would ally with ND-GoW immediately.

But, I made a mistake in sending that message without running it past the forum first. At the time, Lego was still holding the save, and my idea of the time was that a message was needed before they ended their turn. In retrospect, that probably wasn't a good idea... it certainly was not my intention to take our foreign policy into my own hands.

DeepO

[notyoueither]

OK, DeepO. However, if Lego is tending towards being hostile to us, you gave them information on which they could act during their turn. That is one turn faster in reacting to us than they would have had.

Also, divulging that cities are definitiely going back to RP, and which ones, would be very useful for GoW to know, would it not? How do we know that 'the leak' is not simply information we have disclosed to Lego being passed on to GoW? In fact, it looks very clearly as if there are firm contacts there. Why?

GoW learned of Inchon from two different sources, if UnO is to be believed. That would mean there is a fair amount of contact between either Lego or Vox with GoW. Or, at the very least, people on those teams who might hate us and be passing info on to GoW.

Now, it is a fairly accepted practice that not even general details of plans are passed on to anyone other than allies during a war. Lego will not think ill of us if we give them general information about our intentions. If they demand more, there can be very few reasons for it, and not many of them good.

What I ask is that no details or general ideas about our plans or forces be passed to Lego under any circumstances. If they need reassurance about our intentions, I would very much appreciate being involved in formulating the response. We need to turn the trick of keeping them passive while telling them nothing of importance.

[DeepO]

well, let me promise one thing then: I will not send any PM to Lego without leaving the text here for at least 12 hours. Like I said, that was a mistake.

I don't agree on the temporary cities being important information to GoW, though. I never said anything about timing on returning Toledo, and with our RoP and the GS tendency to take cities under pressure, GoW would be foolish to assume they can swiftly ride to NM, and take it before we can accept it from RP, or defend it from within their borders. In fact, if they would take their 14 riders and try such a thing, we would be better off then if we have to defend Toledo next turn.

As to Lego-GoW contacts: that is something we should explore more deeply. There will be undoubtedly be contacts, but how far would these go? In case Lego already has sided with GoW, there is no point in even trying to keep them close. But is there? if talks are still happening, we might be able to at least delay the involvement of Lego, if we downplay our power enough.

Most of GS is certain that we will be able to destroy most of the invaders, and take the war into ND-GoW territory, I don't think GoW will think similarly. They can whine about being the underdogs, we can whine about having to defend RP, who are the real underdogs here. I don't see any other options... we're too powerful to be able to tell them we're the underdogs... they won't ever believe it.

DeepO

[DeepO]

I've got an idea on checking if Lego is spilling information to GoW, or not. But, it has some problems attached, and will certainly spill more strategic info then would be ideal. And... we will need to move quickly for it to be effective.

What if we disclosed to Lego the exact reason for taking Inchon: transportation of 2 horses from RP, and gifting 7 cats to RP, which would be teleported as well. If we only tell this to Lego, and ask them not to tell this info, we would probably see quite fast when GoW hears about it. I doubt it that they can have their mouths shut for long, if we would be helping RP by giving them 7 cats.

The problem is of course that it will also mean that we have 7 cats less on Stormia. That RP gains 7 cats is no big issue: ND will have spotted these the moment they open their turn. But us having less cats... I'm not sure if it is worth the gamble of finding out if Lego is freely distributing info or not.

DeepO

[DeepO]

As my previous message was not correct to Legoland, here's the draft of what to send them.

Hi Vondrack,

Just a quick correction on my previous message, well, not a correction, more like a change of plans.
New Madrid was not given back to RP this turn, which means it won't be back in their possession at 50 AD. This was done because of a change in situation with the GoW riders, RP could not defend the city adequately, and we can miss more cities turning to the GoW-ND alliance; it will be hard enough to get everything back to the old. We will give it back asap, just not this turn... first we need to remove the threat of GoW taking the city.

In telling you this before GoW sees what's going on, I only want to avoid you think we're deceiving you. Please keep this to your own...

DeepO

Okay, not the best of messages... I'm a bit tired and pressed for time. I want to correct what I sent earlier, and want to do that before they get the save (possibly after GoW had its way). Also, this could perhaps be used as a way of forcing GoW to attack Toledo, in case Lego spills information to them. But it probably has to be reworded for that.

I'll see what the comments are when I return tomorrow afternoon...

DeepO

[Shiber]

I don't like it.
I'd rather tell them that there's been a change of plans, and we're keeping NM for now, but we'll have no need nor use for it after GoW's units in the theater have been dispatched or chased away, and we plan to return it to RP then.
Your last paragraph is very good.

[DeepO]

fair enough... you're more asking to change the timing, right, not the intent of the message? It can be sent the moment RP has the save, thus before Lego gets it...

DeepO

[Shiber]

No, I don't mind if it gets to Lego before RP gets the save. On the other hand, if we send the save after GoW has passed the turn, Lego can easily notice that we don't trust them much (it'll probably take two days before GoW passes the save, a day for ND and a day for GoW).
I just don't want to be very revealing. To tell them that we're keeping the city but not for long would be enough IMHO.

[DeepO]

RP has the save, and if we want to keep to the Sunday chat date, we'd better lay out what can and cannot be said to Lego.

I'd want to mention that RP won't get NM this turn, but hopefully soon. Reason: Change of plans (nothing more). Further, I'd like to ask about the precise intent of the PM: does this mean we were given a last warning, or did it meant that all deals are off?

I won't tell them anything (more) on our plans, if they ask why I can always state that their last message has brought some fear to us, and we don't see giving out any more information good for us. The only thing said could be that we intend to defend RP, not conquer Bob.

And lastly, they can get info on broken deals by GoW, and why we don't consider the NAP to be broken by us. But I doubt they're interested in this, last public message Vondrack posted mentioned that he know considers GS to follow the letter of an agreement, not the spirit. Very unfortunate (I don't see it like that), however most likely it can't be changed back. GoW spoiled our reputation here...

Frankly, I don't particularly look forward to this chat, it's starting to become too complex for my tastes.

DeepO

[Shiber]

If they ask about the letter of the agreement and the spirit of the agreement, tell them that GoW diplomatically-outmaneuvered us and made us promise to sign a NAP before revealing to us that they're going to gang-bang RP, and then decided to forbid us from landing any units on Bob.
GoW abused the fact that we keep our promises by making us promise to sign a NAP and then turning the entire world situation upside-down. Hopefully Lego would sympathize.

[notyoueither]

Actually, we were welcome to come and do as much damage to RP as we could, and then give all the cities away to GoW and ND.

We maintained the letter and the spirit of the agreement in our actions vis-a-vis GoW. We took what we could, and we told them to shove the rest. NAPs do not mean cooperating on conquests.

Had GoW stayed out of our lands, we would have contented ourselves with bashing on ND's army. That did not happen.

I would very much like to be at this chat. What time is it set for? Can it be delayed if I cannot be there early enough? I have some ISDG issues to address.

[zeit]

I'd like to be there as well- Lego must be kept at bay for as long as possible. We all realize that they'll be facing us sometime in the not so distant future, as the two teams are set on a collison course, but we might be able to slow them down, through good diplomacy, coupled with us standing to our promise (researching banking).

The bottom line should be:
GoW had put us in an uncomfortable position when they asked for the NAP before hearing about their plans. Things have gotten worse when we heard there was no future for us on Bob, and that we are not welcomed as permanent residents, but only as far as having temporary camps that would be replaced in the future for something else (no need to spill the beans here, even if GoW's promise was BS), while each will have more than twice as much tiles as we do when the war is over, and will be left with a decent sized army, gold consuming and hungry for more. We kept our word on this, keeping everything secret, when we were approached by RP- this led to our intervention.
We could have landed on GoW land if we wanted to end their involvement quickly, while breaking the NAP- but we chose the hard way, to block GoW while risking an attack from them (we knew that in this uncomfortable situation, they won't keep to their agreement. see: CoL incident, their mercenary role in the Voxian war), which is why we didn't cry foul when they entered our borders, this was expected from them.
Being gifted cities from the enemy is not considered a hostile act by the GS and was not addressed in our NAP with GoW, and although we recognize its ambiguity, it does not go against the NAP.
True, it does put GoW in a very uncomfortable position, as much as the NAP puts us in an uncomfortable position when faced with two civs soon to take control of Bob quite easily who deny us of any territory on Bob, while requesting our assistance (we can't blame them for that, but they can't expect us to sit idly while they do it).

(That's a long bottom line... )

[DeepO]

Sorry, guys, Last night I returned home too late, and went straight for bed. I'll try to arrange something tonight. nye, from what hour on can I schedule a chat if you want to join? It can't be too late, in case zeit wants to be there too (21h GMT?)

DeepO