DIPLO: Legoland Comments

[nbarclay]

I don't know the difference by heart, but I have the editor up (where I can check easily) for other reasons. Banking is 52 and Astronomy is 56, so the difference is fairly trivial compared with the total costs. I wouldn't mind trying an offer of 180 gold plus a world map and seeing what happens; considering the cost difference for the other two techs, it would be a reasonable deal.

[DeepO]

okay, so that seems doable. at 26(?) per editor cost, that would amount to a difference of about 100 gold, or at 25% some 25 gold in our favor.

Do we have to funds to offer it to them right now, in total, in next turn? If so, I'd rather offer them the choice:
- 180 gold plus WM asap (next turn)
- 100 gold plus WM now, 100 gold in 3-4 turns (still before they give us education).

This means they can chose, or further negotiate if they want.

One final thing: does this mean we will definately be going for banking? I don't mind, but if we promise it to Lego, we should do it, or face further negotiations to change the deal...

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Based on my earlier check with Education, if the multiplier is an integer, it has to be 24. Multiply 24 times 44 and you get 1056, which fits neatly within the range I'd pinned the cost down to (and is the only integer that fits).

We have the gold to pay for Education up front (and still pay for Chivalry with some left over). I definitely don't want to offer them extra gold for a delayed payment, since I don't see anything I'd want to spend the gold on in the next 3-4 turns.

I think the Banking/Astronomy deal is definitely something we want to pursue. Imagine our galleys upgraded to caravels. But it might be good to discuss with Lego the possibility that changing world events can disrupt plans, and the longer-range the plans, the greater the risk of disruption.

[Harovan]

I can confirm, that the multiplier is 24, based on our research analyses during the ancient age.

[Arrian]

I think 180g+WM is a lowball offer. But if we wanna start there, we start there, but be prepared to come up.

I'd go as high as 250g+WM.

Also, Nathan posed an important question w/regard to Astronomy & Banking.

Let's see if we can get Lego to agree that each team has EXCLUSIVE rights to sell the tech they research. So we research banking, and though we provide it to Lego, they agree to never sell it on. Likewise for us with Astronomy.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Arrian, I think that's the idea behind having 20-turn NDAs... although asking about pure exlusive rights might be good too. However, I'd hate us to be the ones proposing it, as it will cause others to see us even more as protectionists.

I agree, maybe the 180+WM is a bit too low. We'll see, if they don't go for it, it's ok too. It will be an important point if we can give it to them right away (do we still have the save after I return home? Maybe we could even offer it to them this turn)

DeepO

[Aeson]

With the Lighthouse our Caravels can travel on sea tiles right? That would allow us to find any other land out there before anyone else. Copernicus would be a good next build in Hurricane too. Lego could beat us, but then it would make a nice Smith's build most likely. I'd rather we be the ones to research Astronomy, but if Lego is going to perfectly time a Copernicus prebuild, it isn't going to matter anyways. We can't have a prebuild in place soon enough to finish even the turn after.

I think with the Astronomy/Banking deal, we should try to have a 'share the wealth' type agreement in place. If one of our teams has sole rights to trade the techs (indefinitely), and is willing to split the profits, we can probably both get more than Lego or GS (whoever is deemed less worthy of being embargoed) would get if we were bidding against each other. At the least we should be able to get 2 more techs each from the deal.

If we are bidding against each other (even with 20 turn NDA's), the likelyhood of the winning team getting 200g or less for their tech is pretty high given how trading has been working in this game.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Aeson
With the Lighthouse our Caravels can travel on sea tiles right?

Can't they travel sea tiles anyway? I thought that upon discovery of astro, all boats (including galleys) could travel the sea, just not the ocean. And the lighthouse doesn't change that: it doesn't let caravels travel ocean tiles... but they remain one MP faster, of course.

DeepO

[Aeson]

Astronomy allows travel on Sea tiles I think. Navigation/Magnetism are the ones that open up Ocean travel for all vessels.

[Arrian]

Right, so Caravels can travel on sea no matter what, but our Lighthouse gives us an extra move (plus sea travel for our galleys).

I like your "share the wealth" idea, Aeson.

I say we propose that to Lego.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

okay, just sent a very quick proposal, Arrian and nye, could you please keep an eye on a response from Vondrack? I probably won't be able to check again this evening (sorry, something came up, I did not expect to go out tonight, but duty calls )

DeepO

[Arrian]

I did not expect to go out tonight, but duty calls

"Don't think of it as work." [/Animal House]



-Arrian

[Aeson]

I think we could raise our offer a bit, but not too much. 200g and our map, with Furs for 20 turns once Astronomy comes around (basically no value, but see if they'll bite)

We should also remind Lego that they (and everyone but GoW) passed on 200g for Feudalism with half the NTA. 275g for Education (44) would be the equivalent of 200g for Feudalism (32), but the length of the NTA difference, and that 200g wasn't viable for Feudalism, was the basis of our offer.

Perhaps we can give them a further promise that we won't attempt to resale (by making future trade agreements with it) on the Tech for the 20 turns, so that they are almost guaranteed to be the one's able to trade it, and without competition. Unlike with us, where GoW obviously was negotiating to sell it after the agreement expired from the time we gave it to them (if not before).

[Aeson]

Forgot to mention, we should bite on the 'delay for a few extra turns' bit, and try to get it 3-4 turns. Then we could offer more gold, say 300 (it's worth it IMO in that timeframe, gives us a viable shot at Copernicus if we go builder, if we go warmonger... we should just upgrade though ).

[DeepO]

Aeson, I kind of anticipated that, and I agree in full. The reply I sent Vondrack (I did log that one, no?) tries to address these issues... it mentions the longer NDA, it mentions that we would like to get into some kind of agreement where the researcher profits from subsequent sales after the NDA expires. The only thing that works in their advantage is the promise of waiving the difference between Astro and banking, but using the same ratio, that is only a 24 gold advantage.

I wouldn't offer them furs just yet, but it could be a promise. Let's first of all see what they ask...

I was under the impression that they can't hurry it more then they're already doing, but maybe I'm wrong.

Oh, and Re: Copernicus: Are you talking about getting it after the Colossus, or forgoing the Colossus, and going for Copernicus instead? I'd rather have the Colossus... it's science output increase isn't that big as Copernicus, but it comes very close (only the tiles with 3 commerce get more with Cop), and doesn't only work for beakers, but also for gold. (and luxury, but that doesn't apply). For me, the Colossus has priority over Copernicus...

DeepO