DIPLO: Legoland Comments

[alva]

does that mean GoW have a few units landed there?

The one regarding to this in the publu forum to me indicated Barbs.
I didn't catch this one in the chat, so no idea, but I think he meant the same thing.

[DeepO]

I'll see if I find the quote, that should clear things up. Maybe I just read it wrong, it sounded different then on the public forum. Plus, I was wondering on UnO's story, we know it is based on the thruth, but just how far? Maybe GoW is also farming barbs.

I think I just realized why Lego wants Vox so close to them, up until now I was always puzzled, there are benefits, but none seem so great as to invite them to their continent when you have the pyramids to fuel your expansion, and you're designated builders.

It wouldn't surprise me if Lego and Vox from now on sign some kind of MPP, notice how Vondrack said somewhere they were obliged to keep them alive in case things went badly with the war? It might very well be that Vox will somewhat become the smaller brother of Lego, not exactly a vasal, but more of a brother team. Legoland knows that it won't get support from Bob when times get critical, and might certainly fear us, in which case a close partner will certainly help. And by inviting Vox, they buy their eternal friendship (well, as much as they can trust them, but it's easy to trust someone who is half your size).

I think it's safe to assume Vox will be a (smaller) power to keep thinking on if we let the Voxodus occur, certainly when it comes to Legoland. The question is: will we give this kind of opportunity to another team?

DeepO

[DeepO]

[23:26] {Shiber> anyway, lots of barbarians in your 'hood, i hear
[23:26] {Shiber> i heard that vox is moving in soon though
[23:26] {vondrack> yeah... we have been able to pull a great contract with them

This I found, but it was not the quote I was looking for... if I see it, I'll quote. I don't know where I read it anymore, sorry.

DeepO

[notyoueither]

We can't stop a Voxodus, DeepO. Lego could gift Vox a city next turn. In fact, they would have to for the worker trasfer to take place. Yes?

What we can do is stop the orderly depopulation of Voxes Stormian cities. We would gain some slaves. Perhaps we would gain another GL, but no assurances of that.

We would lose goodwill with Lego, RP and GoW perhaps. We would lose 2 free techs. We would need to continue building some forces to replace loses, so we would lose more development time in some of our cities.

We would also run the risk of GoW and RP coming across the straights in some strength, perhaps occupying some ex-Vox cities. We could then look forward to dealing with immortals defending cities, with horsemen nipping at our vulnerabilities.

I think this war has gone very well. The landing at Elipolis and its capture may not have been the optimal military move (I would have landed to kill immortals before they killed 6 of our pikes) but it very well could crown our decisive victory over Vox. Taking that city has demoralised them and their sponsors. It has them ready to give us all that we could capture and a bit more. We give up some slaves, and the chance at another GL. I like it.

[DeepO]

I realise that we can't stop a Voxodus and how it will affect our standing in the world, that's not really my point. I was just analyzing: if Lego really gets a full time MPP partner in Vox (added to coordinated research, or even 1 team on research, the other on tax), we should try to see this beforehand, and try to react to it. If we don't see possible reasons for Lego to do this (besides the already mentioned ones, of course), we can only say afterwards: "that we should have spotted, it was so obvious it would happen"

How to counter it? Difficult... maybe demand from Lego that whatever tech they gain from Vox, they will sell us at half the price if Vox refuses. Maybe we need to consult all the other teams with this proposal, surely they are also kind of involved. If Bob is in on this proposal, and the mediator role Vondrack is assuming, they might have opinions on this too. If they also think to gain (e.g. in tech) by keeping Vox alive, we might get some gifts there to, or at least some assurances.

Besides, it would be good for relations anyway.

BTW, would it be possible to ask for a general time-out publicly (say 3 days), so that we have time to do this diplo stuff? 24 hours isn't much...

DeepO

[notyoueither]

I agree, DeepO. The potential is there that Lego is gaining a 40 turn research puppet. We can't stop that in time. My bet is that they already have a settler prepared to pop a city and gift to Vox. I would.

This is something that we should discuss with the world.

We have a little left before Vox passes to Lego. Lego then has 24 hours. Then we have 24 hours. If we really need to we can ask for an extention near the end of Lego's time, or right at the beginning of ours.

[DeepO]

The problem with the time is that Vox can start on Voxodus this turn, move their troops where we want them, and generally surrender instead of having to adhere to a unilateral cease fire. Which means we need that extension before they need to pass on their turn...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Right.. the chat just ended... which also reminds me why I don't particularly like chats, I type too much, they always end up being hours long

We learned quite a number of things, though.

1. The deal for Theo / no Sistine clause will go through. We should ratify it asap, a message from vondrack should arrive soon. If we manage to ratify it before they play their turn, it should be offered us now.

(one question, though: it looks they have Theo for quite some time now... are any other techs already discovered? we missed this one in the rush of the past few days)

2. we need to start discussing what to research next. Aeson brought up the idea of splitting cost, where we pay them gold, so they can get to Edu faster (fastest would be 6-7 turns). Otherwise, the only real tech open is printing press, as we're going to need to wait on Vox's engineering before we can start on invention. Lego prefers to go for Astronmoy after that.

3. we keep them posted on the Voxodus plans. (Need a chat with Vox here!). They are going to settle a city in 5 turns, and add a worker to it asap. The plan was to allow Vox to poprush a spear as the place seems to be infested with barbs. we might be able to do a bit more with this information, perhaps not. For Lego, it is no option to have the city there for any longer as necessary (i.e. they want to gtift it the turn it gets settled), as it disrupts corruption... Vox's captial will be closer then their outmost city.

4. They have deals for Engineering and Chivalry, but nothing else. Further, they haven't made deals with all teams for Sistine yet, but it looks like they're close.

5. they are not planning on a peaceful GA soon! So... no Collosus, although it remains an option. There is a clause in the Vox treaty to keep an unupgraded warrior for them, so in case it's need they can start their GA like that, but Vondrack seems to prefer a peaceful start himself, in at least 30 turns.

6. they're not really interested in extra lux, before Astronomy, certainly if it means them paying gold for it. But, seeing as this is still an idea, and Aeson doesn't think it is possible, we shouldn't put anymore resources in it. They definately like to trade after astronomy

7. WM: seeing as they won't give out their map, I proposed to sell ours at 50 gold. They made clear they can't afford it now, but would be perhaps interested in buying it on a loan (which is fine for me, personally). still needs to be discussed.

Other comments will surely follow, I'll try to reread the log (that is, if I don't fall asleep half way through it). I found it quite interesting....

DeepO

[Shiber]

Certainly a from me for this deal.

[vulture]

We should clarify with them about the possibility of using Sistine as a prebuild, firstly so they don't get paranoid if we do switch a prebuild to the Sistine for some reason, and secondly so they can warn us if they are going to complete the Sistine soon and ruin our prebuild (once we agree to a no-Sistine clause they might be willing to give us an ETA on their build, if we promise not to share the information).

[DeepO]

last message from Vondrack:

1. we can use Sistine as a prebuild

2. They would be willing to speed along in research towards Edu, if we help them in gold. They have an ETA of 6 turns. As a proposal, they ask for half our 100% tax income.
I responded we would bring a good offer, without disclosing our exact gold income...

So: Do we want to spend gold on Lego getting Edu sooner? I would say that, in case we get it in 6 turns, and we are not allowed to trade it on, a good deal would be about 1/4 of their cost... don't know how much this amounts too (250 gold?), but if we provide it to them before they actually do the research, that should be enough. The price for the WM should be distracted from that (so we end up with about 200 gold for Edu, if we would pay now)

3. They want to prearrange future tech-deals (which was one of the ideas we proposed in chat), and ask for prearranging Banking (us) / Astronomy (Lego). Astronomy is more expensive, but they want to wave the difference in case the first deal gets accepted.
I certainly welcome the idea of having at least one good deal for our next tech, and I don't think many will object to this. However, we need to decide quickly what we want to research in 6 turns time...

Please comment on this quickly, Legoland should not be left waiting. Certainly not on the Edu deal... I'm away for the rest of the evening, so Arrian or nye, could you respond to them in case anything gets decided today?

DeepO

[Shiber]

2. 6 turns? Bob will most likely be in war by then. Who will buy the tech?
Even if we offer it on a loan with 0% interest, noone would commit now. Education has no military value, and no value at all when you're only building military units.

[Shiber]

Additionally, if we sign a tech deal with Lego, I'd like Vox to be involved. Lego can press them and force them (the easy way or the hard way) to pay some of the costs.

[DeepO]

well... I thought to avoid the war on Bob, by offering not to resell it ourselves (for the moment). After 20 turns, the war might have ended... If we can leave the risk in Lego's hands, while still profiting from getting Edu early, it would be good for us (I think). The only exception is if we would get attacked.

The 200 gold (+WM) I propose over 6 turns should be enough to keep our reserve at the point we are now, or even do a bit better then that. 100% tax leads to what, 80 gold per turn? half of that means 240 gold in 6 turns, so it is what they ask for... we would need to find a way to word it properly, though.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh, and Re: Vox: Do you mean for astro/banking? Vox won't have any gold to spend, and if we race along, they can't keep doing 40-turn research either. So before they build up their empire again, they are not really a factor to take into account IMHO.

DeepO