DIPLO: GoW comments

[Shiber]

I don't like sending them threats, but I do like intimidation (which is just what we want to build up if we don't want GoW or anyone else to get any more ideas of landings).
Telling them to check the military advisor, and also the power graph is good. I'd also remind them that the last people who landed a military force on our coast from a galley were just as surprised to see it gone the next turn as they were boasting on the public forum. A reminder that we are industrious, and that most of our territory is roaded, and most of our forces are mobile (meaning they can attack from 6 tiles away) would also achieve a nice effect, IMHO.

[Aeson]

I don't think we should say anything to GoW about landing. The talks made it very clear that we would kill any units that landed on our shores, and GF made a statement as to the effect that 2 units near our core would have... mainly that they just die.

They know that landing 2 units doesn't gain them anything. No need to make them feel like we are assuming they will break the agreement.

We should ask GoW about the Chivalry part of the deal. Ask them if they've agreed to it, and when we should prepare to get the 200g together.

[DeepO]

Aeson, I agree on Chivalry, we should find out soon. If ND and GoW work together (remote possibility, but not impossible), they could agree not to give chivalry to us... leaving us 'open' for invasion.

DeepO

[Arrian]

Ok, have we had any contact with GoW since we killed their units? I mean, if we're really at war with them, I gonna start thinking of how to hurt them.

"I've done worse than kill you. I've... hurt you. And I wish to go on... hurting you." [/Wrath of Khan]

-Arrian

[Shiber]

Zeit, could you write a draft for a message to GoW?
IMHO it should address the following issues: why have they landed units on our territory despite our warnings, why won't they accept the peace offer that we sent them and whether they would like to begin trading luxuries.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue?

[zeit]

Can we trade luxs before we have a harbor?

I'd rather not get into details on our very first message, let's address the more immediate concerns- like peace...

We also want to get a clearer picture on how they view our conflict with Vox and if they even wish to have trade relationship with us of any kind.

I thought about telling them we face growing hostility from certain teams, both hidden and obvious expressions of it, and that we wish to know where does our relationship stands, beyond this skirmish between us, which we don't see as a declaration of an all-out war.

True, this is somewhat naive of us to tell them, in a sophisticated way that we feel like: "everyone hates us" when we obviously don't trust them, when we're in an official state of war, and especially when we feel like everything we share is used against us.

But if we break it down and consider it, i believe the harm that could come from telling them so, including a request that relationships are renewed can turn into real gains, if GoW is still considering it's course of action. Perhaps they became hesitant once they have witnessed our resolve, as well as our capabilities to stand behind our words, while facing what used to be the strongest ground based military in the world.

I'd understand if for now we take a more cautious approach and stick to the formal template of a peace offer, while raising the obvious question Shiber posted.

In these days, it's hard for us to make a first step, especially after being burnt so badly (there is a saying in hebrew, which probably a common one about that one who was burnt from boiling water, and now is cautious when handling warm water), but perhaps now, when we feel a bit more confident and determined than before that we turn to potential friend/foe with more of what they wouldn't expect us to.

Please comment on this idea, as i most likely have no clue on what i'm talking about...

[Shiber]

Originally posted by zeit
Can we trade luxs before we have a harbor?

No, but if they're seriously interested, we'll have a reason to build a harbor other than for vet ships.
What's more important is that raising issues such as future trade of luxuries make it very clear to GoW that we do not see this as a real war, nor do we hold any grudge at them for betraying us.

In these days, it's hard for us to make a first step,

I know... but IMHO it's VERY important that we make it.
All in all I think we should let them know that we do not see this little pseudo-war as something serious. Maybe GoW will get the message and think along the same lines, and then they'd realize that they're being dragged into some ridiculous affair by Togas and that this would not really benefit them at all in the end.

[Aeson]

I think we should wait for peace. Right now they probably feel completely safe... Vox has our attention. They (almost surely) aren't going to ship over a large part of their military just to get killed when it lands and leave their homeland open to be attacked, and we have to deal with Vox first, so the war doesn't have much point anyways.

The longer we are at war with GoW, the more likely it would be that we could actually hit them. Plus things might change and we could want to hit GoW (in combination with ND, or to help them from being sandwiched on BOB) by the time Vox is dealt with.

If we are facing a coallition of some sort in the future, peace with GoW isn't going to help us any as they'd be in on it too. If we had a harbor and wanted to do luxury trading, then a peace treaty might be worthwhile, but I don't see how we gain anything by making peace right now.

[asleepathewheel]

the only reason, IMHO to even deal with GoW in the near future is Chivalry. As ND is wasting time on feudalism, GoW will be the only to hold it for some time, and we need it in order to attack BoB shortly after Vox is taken.

[DeepO]

Question: Why isn't GoW accepting peace?

possible answers:
1. They're under contract to attack us from someone, possible Vox

2. They hope they will be able to take some of our cities when we're not defending them

3. They need the happiness bonus, as we have attacked them, and they currently are experiencing war unweariness

4. They want to break the NDA on Feudalism

5. something else

I don't why they don't accept it, but do they have any reason to stop the war? I don't think so... not as long as we're being a threat to them, or we offer them something better. Do we want to stop the war at our expense? Not really, only if it gives us a shot at getting Chivalry. So, I think we can politely threat them, either by saying that if they continue this, they will be our first target on Bob where we considered them our least likely target, or by saying that they will forego future favorable trade deals if they keep this up. (e.g. us researching Chivalry, and giving (not selling!) it to ND.)

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

I agree with everything DeepO has stated.

Also, I would add that perhaps they attacked us to distract ND, like they were sugesting in the ruse earlier.

I wish they would accept the damn peace because I think RP should be eliminated next. I just don't trust them, and feel they are and will manipulate the other teams against us.


Maybe we should next target the team that accepts Beta into their ranks, just for his commentary

[alva]

I wish they would accept the damn peace because I think RP should be eliminated next.

No need to lower ourselves to the same line of thinking as Togas.
Our strategy should be so that it gives us the best chance of winning, not making sure anyone in particular won't win.

Let's deal with vox first and take it from there.

[alva]

Having said that, getting in contact with Gow is priority.
I wouldn't even mention any trades at all.
Come to think of it, Zeit having been away a couple of days might gives us the perfect angle to do so.
If he contacts gow seemingly unofficial "Hey, I'm gone 2 days and look what happens...", this could leave both sides not having to loose face and 'feeling' to be on neutral grond.

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by alva

No need to lower ourselves to the same line of thinking as Togas.
Our strategy should be so that it gives us the best chance of winning, not making sure anyone in particular won't win.

Let's deal with vox first and take it from there.

Lower ourselves to the level of Togas? I'm not sure how or why you implied that into my words. I'm looking at the best way to win, I think we next wage war either on GoW or RP. I would prefer RP due to their duplicitous nature and that they have the most room for expansion next to lego. Nip that in the bud I say.

[notyoueither]

There is also an ever so handy sea lane right to their capital. Turn x-1 all clear from the RP POV. Turn x, 6 GS pike and 8 knights are on a hill next to their harbour and within spitting distance of Madrid...