DIPLO: GoW comments

[DeepO]

Originally posted by alva
Isn't there any other normal team in this game,sjjjjeeeesh.

Nope. We're all pleasantly disturbed

I'm not sure on the HBR - no settlement deal, they will certainly argue that them not settling near to us is just as valuable as us not settling near to them. Further, the way they are practically demanding it doesn't sound nice either, I'm half sure they have more territory then us, just don't use it that efficiently. Didn't Trip say somewhere that neither GoW nor ND had a coastal city yet? we've got 3...

I more or less agree on what Nathan said, however I'd like to get a clause in that we think they are demanding from the wrong perspective, in that our space is more limited then theirs, so it should be us demanding to keep all other civs off our continent, instead of them. But also tell them we know what kind of diplomatic tension a 'beachhead' would bring, and we don't intend on risking our spotless reputation.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

We don't have enough concrete information to be sure that our space is more limited than theirs. I'd be inclined to word it more like,

"We find it ironic that you are the ones complaining about a limited land area when, especially after your joint campaign against Lux, you and ND probably share more land than we and Vox do. Nonetheless, we recognize that your reaction to a Stormian city near your lands would most likely be just as negative as our reaction to a foreign city on our continent would. So assuming your representation of the situation proves to be reasonably accurate, we agree not to settle on northern Bob if you agree not to settle on our continent. We are not, however, interested in exchanging maps; we are willing to accept your word unless and until we have reason not to, and we have nothing to prove that would necessitate giving up our own map."

[DeepO]

If I understand the finesses of this, we are not promising to not settle, but only say that we won't, unless they lie to us, no? Also, why are we protecting the Voxian lands, and are they protecting the ND lands? I'd rather have a 'don't settle too close' deal instead of a 'don't settle on our continent' deal.

BTW, do we need an expiration date?

DeepO

[alva]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Take advantage of it how?

Somekind of compensation.
Even not settling our continent might do, as long as it sounds as if we are doing them a favour, IE that their gain is bigger then ours.

[nbarclay]

They already proposed an expiration date, so we ought to insert the same date in our counter-proposal. Yes, I did choose a wording where our promise is valid only if they aren't lying to us about the situation. My impression is that they are including ND lands as well as their own in the area not to be settled, which would justify us in protecting Voxian lands. And "keep off our continent" is both simpler and less informative than trying to explain what parts of the continent we regard as belonging to us would be.

[DeepO]

On the "keep off our continent" clause: I was thinking, do we really want GoW not to settle any Voxian lands? If they would, Vox needs to deal with them, thus there is not really a problem for us, I thought. hence my "don't settle within 5 tiles of one of our cities" agreement.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Oh... and I don't know if we need to delay the turn before we get an arrangement with GoW. There are going to be at least 2 more turns before RP has CoL, and because they now they are going to get it, nothing stops them from negotiating a deal with GoW now.

What is certain is that we need to make this deal with GoW asap, so let's get on with this:

Proposed minimum deal to GoW:
1) we give you CoL now, no guarantee other then your word of honor
2) You trade MM to us the moment you discover it, in exchange of 30 gold
3) there is, at GoW request, a No-whoring treaty involved, of 15 turns after giving CoL, or 10 turns after MM, whichever comes first.
4) this deal is no longer negotiable after signing

Then we can start on a next deal, involving settlemnet plans, future deals, maps, etc.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

The thing I dislike about a "within five tiles" agreement is that it's tied to information that's not readily available in-game. Also, I suspect that there's former Luxian land that GoW definitely wants to protect its right to settle but doesn't have a city within five tiles of at present. And in any case, I can see someone trying to settle our lands for the incense, but why would anyone from Bob send settlers to Voxian lands where they'd likely end up getting in a fight over totally corrupt jungle?

[nbarclay]

Why give up the 100 gold guarantee? Also, I suspect that the Map Making deal will go through more quickly if we do go ahead and settle the settling matter at the same time.

[DeepO]

5 tiles: before we should be able to send a settler their way, they should have settled it already, or the land is simply to big for them to make those demands. Further, in principle we don't need any information outside what we can't see: the moment we land, GoW can warn us we're too close, and need to move on.

100 gold guarantee: why do we need it? I would ask for it, but we need some bargaining chip, and this can be it... I can imagine it's for them the part that upset them most: if I got it right, they are offering MM to Lux for 40 gold, if we are offering the equivalent of 180 gold they will certainly value their techs differently.

For us, the 30 gold difference between CoL and MM is good enough, but keep in mind that this is 30 gold for 48 beakers, we are paying them over 60% of first-researcher's cost. That's a lot... they can operate on more like 25% normally, which makes 150, or even 100 gold for CoL a lot, worth more then what they would buy the tech for...

Combining deals: I don't think it will be faster, for the simple reason that there we need to ratify it. A no settlement deal should be polled in our forum, while the CoL-MM was already decided (at least, nobody complained).

DeepO

[alva]

if I got it right, they are offering MM to Lux for 40 gold, if we are offering the equivalent of 180 gold they will certainly value their techs differently.

So why don't we buy it from Lux and split the difference...

[zeit]

Re: Lux-GoW and MM:
Havn't they agreed to buy that from us?.

HotE did mention they are working on a trade with Lux- including peace.

Check their new reply- HotE confirmed my earlier suspiciouns- GoW is not inclined towards warfare, and they didn't take the war seriously. He also partially apologized for the mistake- with a bit of guilty feelings, i suppose. So no point in giving the guarantee, we could use it for a loan or something.

I'll go ahead and offer HotE a 100 guarantee deal, also with that offer Nathan wrote regarding settling BOB and WM trade.
Hopefully, GoW will just grab it and won't ask for too much, not after their latest glitch. As for the rest of the deal, i'll tell him these issues are negotiable, but not in this deal...

[alva]

the lastest message from GoW

1. Where did Lux go ?

Maybe we should leak somewhere (unofficially), we didn't give Lux a safe haven. ("Drop" it in the chatroom orso )

I can also tell you that peace with Lux could be close at hand. We are still on talking terms with them and are close to closing a tech deal which includes peace.

GoW is giving tech to Lux????? or vice versa?

And finally, I would like to ask what the iron situation is on your continent. We have a supply, but it is close to the ND border, and we could lose it. Our team is looking at trying to secure a safe 2nd source from another civ.

This one is mighty interesting.

[Shiber]

I guess we could offer them CoL for 100 gold this turn (we can't delay this anymore, I fear that RP will "change their minds" about this deal too).
The iron is very interesting indeed. Perhaps we should start thinking about settling the iron city site south of Dissidentville earlier than we planned, if only for its trade value (if not to GoW, then to someone else).
Regarding the map trade, we should reply with a strict 'not interested', but we need to be careful not to imply by this that Lux has found a safe haven in our continent and we are trying to keep that in secret (meaning, we need to provide other, preferably convincing excuses for why we do not wish to trade maps at the moment).
Regarding the sale of HBR, I really don't see how we are committed in any way to buying HBR from GoW. If RP or ND can make a better offer, we'll take it, and GoW should realize that and then make us an offer that could compete with whatever RP and ND could offer.
Another interesting bit is GoW telling us that they are REXing. This is good news - it will leave their economy (and ND's, assuming that they are REXing as well to fill the same gap) further behind.
Finally, I suggest that we don't tell GoW anything that we'd like to keep confidential, since apparently they like to trade secrets.

[Shiber]

Anyway, we need to tie all the loose ends and offer CoL for Lit to RP and CoL for 100 gold to GoW this turn. Delaying this deal even further is a bad idea IMHO (look where delaying it by one turn got us to), and we don't want to hold the save for too long and break the 24 hours law.