DIPLO: GoW comments

[zeit]

DeepO- i think MM will be here the moment GoW has it- why would they want to let their 100 gold sit idly in our coffers, when the interest is a fixed 30 gold- the sooner they get their gold back, the better (for them), i'm certain they understand this issue, and it seems they consider they gold quite precious, according to HotE's messages.

I will ask for clarification on this matter, nonetheless- and will clearly put that MM should be sent when researched, and also asking details about the NWA. As for the other issues, i promised him to have further negotiations on those matters, but i did mention i was pretty busy during weekdays, so i think he'll get off my back regarding those issues (like Iron, maps, intel), at least for a few days.

About ND: we could simply ask them that, but i think its too late- i should have thought this was the case- ND buying from RP, but i was too busy with Gow to notice that, nonetheless, we can try. It's strange, though- RP and ND both researched Literature- so either they trade for a different tech, or gold. If its gold, why didn't they bargained with us as well?

Perhaps they had other motives, like previous agreements with RP, or a sudden change of hearts- maybe they want to balance the trade, by preventing us from being the sole beneficiaries.

We could, OTOH, simply ask, with somewhat hurt and agitated tone: "If you don't like the deal, why don't you reply and say so".

Re: GoW war tendencies - look at HotE's messages, all they are concerned is with the land size, economical issues, and their desire to make peace and trades with Lux- does that look like a warmongering team?

like i said before, this team's "warlike" stature is only an excuse for GF and the rest to act like barbarian and post "arrgh" and "we kill you soon..." messages on the board... .

[Shiber]

Originally posted by zeit
About ND: we could simply ask them that, but i think its too late

How so? They still can't conduct the deal. As far as I understand, RP has to offer CoL, and ND has to make a counter offer and accept. RP will get CoL during turn 65, and assuming that they'll send the deal to ND as soon as they get CoL, ND will receive it by turn 66, due to the order of play.
If we can convince ND that what they're doing is immoral, not to mention that it agitates us, they might back off. Remember that we backed off from demanding HBR from Vox after we were told that GoW had some sort of an arrangement with Vox and that they'd be upset if Vox gave us HBR; we would have already bought HBR from GoW instead of received it from Vox, if it wasn't a useless tech that's only necessary to enter the mid age. The same approach might work on ND as it worked on us.

We could, OTOH, simply ask, with somewhat hurt and agitated tone: "If you don't like the deal, why don't you reply and say so".

I suggest that you try to sound upset, and try to convey the message that we deem their actions as immortal and disrespectful, and that this could seriously severe our relations in the future.

like i said before, this team's "warlike" stature is only an excuse for GF and the rest to act like barbarian and post "arrgh" and "we kill you soon..." messages on the board... .

Gotta agree with that. I think they gave up on this whole mercenary thing, since it seems that the market is completely empty.

[Shiber]

Originally posted by DeepO
I think it is, but it would require a bit of creative use of the in-game diplo options. If you declare war, all your resource deals are ended, no? By making peace the turn after, you can do it whenever you want. IIRC, but I'm far from sure, gold is suspended, but lux / resource deals are not, they simply end.

That would work, but I was hoping there was a "conventional" way of doing this perhaps a feature that was added to PTW to alter the length of agreements, which I wasn't aware of.
Even If war and peace are declared in the same turn, other civs will receive a message that we went to war and then signed peace, right? In that case, it'd be better to post a short explanation in the public forum, saying that we did this to cancel a deal, with full consent from GoW, and that it was meant to last less than 20 turns. Otherwise, rumors might start to spread and people would say that we renegotiated an agreement while it was already in effect, or worse. Such a situation would certainly put a dent on our reputation, if not handled properly.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Shiber
Even If war and peace are declared in the same turn, other civs will receive a message that we went to war and then signed peace, right?

Yes, but only if they have an embassy with either of the two teams who go to war. Plus, I'm not sure if you start and end the war before the other team plays its turn.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Considering that ND had no deal with us, and considering our own deal with Vox, I don't see any basis for us to characterize it as "immoral" for ND to stonewall us and buy Code of Laws from someone else. Indeed, if we criticize such a move on their part and they figure out what we and Vox are up to, they would have excellent reason to be upset with our apparent hypocrisy.

Nathan

[zeit]

I agree with Nathan- there is nothing immoral in them striking a deal with RP perhaps somewhat "not nice" - doing that while not replying to our constant messages. We can try act a bit agitated, but i see no basis for claims of them breaking any non formal rule.

I say its probably too late, because i assume that by now ND has closed a deal with RP, if our assumption is true.

I also rather it is alva who sends the messages- he already said ND were quite confused with whom to contact, so i rather he handles this.

[zeit]

Well- now that the tech trade is behind us (at least the negotiatons... ) we can deal with the other issues concerning our relations with them.

Lux- according to HotE's last message, we can understand that they know Lux is here, so, i think we should all be prepared to be directed with questions- especially from ND and GoW. HotE said they were having a tough time signing peace with Lux. Beyond the immediate understanding i have for this matter, after hearing and seeing the frustration handling this situation can lead to, i also asked myself: what is it that Lux doesn't want GoW to get from them. I don't they had conversation which goes like:

Lux: "we will not have peace with your barbarians, despite we are small, we have pride"
GoW:" oh no, please do, we want to have peaceful relations with, you can be our friend and ally, which is great interest for us"
Lux: "hell no"
GoW (mutters to himself): "these luxian are so difficult to deal with".

I suppose something is bargained- the question is what- what does GoW has to offer Lux? money? keeping ND busy (highly unlikely) not sailing to take on Lux themselves?
And what does GoW want? Lux is not exactly a trusted party in the eyes of the northern tribe. Have any ideas?

They said they'll turn to Vox- which is understandable, but how much they know about the mutual resentment between the puppet, according to HotE and its master?

Should we step into the picture and offer our aid, as negotiators for this issue too, or that we had enough of trouble and would like to keep it low, with all that has to do with BOB tems.

GoW, and most likely all the rest of the BOBians seem to think we have a terribly tense relation with Vox, and that war is soon to erupt. It would be quite a shock to them if they know we are sharing techs, perhaps even tricked, and most likely quite upset. That secret will be discovered some day, but then again, it may not- we can keep maintaining a false sense of imminent war, untill one will actually erupt. We should also consider the following question- how does GoW know about Lux whereabouts? they have been told by Lux, at least that's what i believe.

I need to know what you want me to say and don't say to them, i'd hate lying, but i could always say things are getting tense with Lux here, and not mentioning the tech partnership, nor the border treaty. But what would Lux or Vox tell them, when they once again come and talk to them.

Also- is it okay that i tell GoW we managed to sell CoL to ND?

[nbarclay]

As I understand it, the deal is a peace treaty acompanied by GoW sellijng Lux Map Making, but Lux needs the 20 gold they got back from Vox and 20 back from us before the deal can happen. That's why the situation is so frustrating for GoW - Lux is having a lot harder time getting their hands on the gold than they'd expected. (But, fortunately, Lux doesn't seem to be explaining the whole situation to GoW.) Once we release 20 gold back to Lux, assuming they agree to still give us the maps we want, that situation should clear up.

Regarding how GoW knows Lux is here, process of elimination would be a sufficient source of information. The only things I can think of that would be even theoretically possible are if Lux still has a settler wandering around Bob somewhere or if they got a city from another civ. And if GoW can establish that Lux didn't get a city on Bob, and feels like there's nowhere left for a settler to hide, that leaves here. Although it's certainly possible that Lux said things to GoW that provide additional reason to believe that Lux is here.

Nathan

[Shiber]

Good question - how did they find out?
Possible immediate explanations that I can see:
1. Lux told them.
2. GoW have made an intelligent guess.
3. Vox is trading secrets.

We know that Vox are opportunistic, so #3 is definitely possible IMHO. I recommend that we keep an eye on Vox and see if we can find any substantial evidence to that.

Originally posted by zeit
Also- is it okay that i tell GoW we managed to sell CoL to ND?

I'd wait until the deal with ND is completed in-game before telling anyone, but once it is - sure, why not? In fact, it'll improve our relations, since GoW will get the feeling that we're being open and honest with them.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by zeit
Lux- according to HotE's last message, we can understand that they know Lux is here, so, i think we should all be prepared to be directed with questions- especially from ND and GoW.

Well... who said that GoW knows Lux is on our continent? I agree they say it, but what are their sources? It is not unlikely that they are speculating on Lux's whereabouts, and are fishing for confirmation here... Before we tell them Lux is here, we should hear from Lux that they told GoW. I don't want us to be the team that takes away all doubts, let Vox or Lux do that.

This makes it a lot harder to answer to the rest of their questions, I agree we can't keep them hanging forever, we should indeed prepare a response to their 'now that Lux is also on your continent, how does the situation evolved?' question. We can say that the situation with Vox has always been tense, and this hasn't changed as we're both weary of what the other's UU can do in battle.
But, I don't mind telling that we also know that either we take Vox out completely, or we stay away from them to prevent later grudges. After all, there is no profit in us taking over fully corrupt cities, if we see no possibility to hold on to them long enough to make them profitable.

I suppose something is bargained- the question is what- what does GoW has to offer Lux? money? keeping ND busy (highly unlikely) not sailing to take on Lux themselves?

One of the things GoW has to offer is peace, and promising to not sail to extinguish them. Another might be to keep ND (who is clearly more eager to take out Lux) from getting MM, so they can't sail to eradicate Lux.

And what does GoW want? Lux is not exactly a trusted party in the eyes of the northern tribe. Have any ideas?

Gold. They need it, to deal with 2 stronger neighbours.

They said they'll turn to Vox- which is understandable, but how much they know about the mutual resentment between the puppet, according to HotE and its master?

I guess not much. Most of this seems to come from speculation, or misinformation by Vox and Lux. HotE doesn't say one word on the subject of us being advantaged by the deal with Lux, on the contrary. So they certainly don't know everything that is going on. Keep quiet on this one, we don't want to anger Vox or Lux.

Should we step into the picture and offer our aid, as negotiators for this issue too, or that we had enough of trouble and would like to keep it low, with all that has to do with BOB tems.

No. Let them mediate all they want, we should stay out of this until there is something for us to gain. Let's stay on the low profile that has done us a lot of good in this game... they can forget about us completely until we're ready to take our rightful position in the world.

GoW, and most likely all the rest of the BOBians seem to think we have a terribly tense relation with Vox, and that war is soon to erupt. It would be quite a shock to them if they know we are sharing techs, perhaps even tricked, and most likely quite upset. That secret will be discovered some day, but then again, it may not- we can keep maintaining a false sense of imminent war, untill one will actually erupt.

I agree we should not pretend we're at the brink of war with Vox, however, we should (and this is no lie) keep the image of a tense relation. We don't want the Bobian civs to see us as an alliance, as it will most likely create an alliance on Bob as well. I would hate to think what a combined ND-RP team could do to us. So, gossipping that we don't want a war right now is ok for me, telling we're close is not.

We should also consider the following question- how does GoW know about Lux whereabouts? they have been told by Lux, at least that's what i believe.

And I believe it to be a matter of deduction. Let's summarize some points:
1. Lux is gone, by exploring Bob knows it is no longer on the continent.
2. Lux couldn't have built a galley, as it both didn't had MM, and no coastal cities.
3. By combining 1 and 2, it is clear that Lux must have bought a city on another continent.
4. The only ones in contact with Lux are either Vox or GS, so either Vox or GS has sold them a city
5. Vox has lost in score when Lux 'moved', but gained in power (gold?).
6. GS would never sell a city to Lux, as we do not want to jeopardize early growth (which is our main advantage)
7. combining 5 and 6, Vox has sold Lux a city
8. GS has not given CoL or literature to Vox, Vox has not given HBR to GS. Lux OTOH has gotten all techs Vox already had.
9. Both Lux and Vox are not willing to discuss it, while GS simply ignored questions. But Lux and Vox have been chatty before, GS has always been secretive.

Combine all this, and you could deduce that Lux is currently a puppet of Vox...

I need to know what you want me to say and don't say to them, i'd hate lying, but i could always say things are getting tense with Lux here, and not mentioning the tech partnership, nor the border treaty. But what would Lux or Vox tell them, when they once again come and talk to them.

No lies, in any case! We can leave some of the thruth behind, but never can we tell something that isn't true.
As the deduction where Lux has gone to is quite clear, we could tell them where Lux is, but I'd rather wait until one of the 2 other teams comments on this.

One possibility is say to GoW that we aren't allowed to discuss the whereabouts of Lux, as we promised to remain silent. They won't ask further, but have a very strong lead that we know where they are, and don't fully approve.

Also- is it okay that i tell GoW we managed to sell CoL to ND?

I don't mind, but I think it would be better to simply say that the situation with ND-CoL solved itself, without any real confirmation that they got it from us.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Shiber

I'd wait until the deal with ND is completed in-game before telling anyone, but once it is - sure, why not? In fact, it'll improve our relations, since GoW will get the feeling that we're being open and honest with them.

It should be completed in-game now. As I recall, they'd already accepted our offer and offered 5gpt in-game in return, so when I hit Accept, that should have completed it.

[zeit]

DeepO- i really liked your analysis, and it makes perfect sense, but still, i don't think HotE would have said such a thing in a pretty confident manner that he did- unless he had confirmation. If anyone confirmed that, i'd say this was Lux- imagine the frustrated Trip telling him how Vox is blackmailing them, or at least that they give them a hard time.

GoW might be upset because Lux isn't offering enough- i wouldn't say Lux has the economy to support any serious trade for the time being, and GoW wasting their time with a petty sum of 20-40 gold from Lux seems more like charity than actual trade- how long will Lux be able to maintain any trading capabilities? not for long.
I think, that for the sake of regional stability, we should first get an agreement with Lux to talk about this with GoW- or at least tell them we do so, and try to help GoW to make the right move. I see an option for bettering the relationship with GoW, especially when we face an enthusiastic and active (in their board as well) consul. Perhaps helping them with a backup iron source, pushing them for compromises with LI- so that everything here goes smoothly for us as well, and generally trying to stabilize the situation- this is the way to go, as we focus on economy buildup, and wonder building.

So for now, i'll add to my list:
"tell GoW the issue with ND was solved."

I also think its safe to tell Lux and Vox GoW knows, Vox will know this shortly- or maybe already do (HotE: "Lux is having difficulty in trying to abide by their master"- means they know something about the relation, and from who- Vox or Lux?). I suppose i can also tell them something like:

"for the time being, we unfortunatly cannot share information regarding Lux Invictia. Hopefuly, in the future, these issues could possibly be discussed. What we can say is that the recent happenings in our continent did increase tension, But although the relations between Vox and us have been tense, the GS constantly seeks peaceful resolution, and aspire to maintain stability. We hope your effort to stabilize the relation with Lux succeed, and that it yields a peace agreement and renewed trading relationship. Regarding the Iron trade- we currently have no tradable iron deposit, but could possibly acquire such one. For now we advise you to build a colony, as dangerous and expensive as it may be- you can use it to upgrade warriors, in the face of imminent threat. A trade route has to be established, and an ownership on a tradable deposit, before such trade is possible- and it is best to be constantly prepared."

Please comment and i'll edit accordingly.

[Theseus]

Good analysis, DeepO.

[DeepO]

The proposed message to GoW certainly changed a lot over night... what about explaining to them now that we did knew where Lux went, but were bound by secrecy. And, that this latest stunt of Vox certainly increased tension again, even if we're still trying to avoid war.

Re: iron: indeed, advise them to get an iron source, for two reasons:
1. we don't know when we will be able to trade iron to them
2. Although another source would be in our vicinity, we can't be sure we'll get it, certainly not now that Vox has gotten their city back, and might prepare to take that source from us.

Maybe, but I'm not sure on this, could we say that we agreed on letting Lux live in exile on our continent, a prmosie that would have net us some future advantages. Advantages we now will miss...

DeepO

[Shiber]

Hmm... but we want GoW to have iron in order to balance Bob as much as possible, no?
Here's an idea: how about we tell them that we're willing to trade our only source of iron (at the moment) to them for a period of 20 turns, or less if we are suddenly attacked and need to upgrade warriors (in which case, we promise to resume trading once the fighting has ceased and give them the full 20 turns), in exchange for their world map and some gold (they will have to stop their research for several minutes to accumulate gold to pay for the upgrades anyway). GoW will have enough iron for a period of time long enough to build several swordsmen and upgrade several warriors, and we'll make a nice profit and finally get a map of Bob.