Turn 42

[nbarclay]

As best I can tell, barb galleys are produced by barb camps on the coast. At least I've noticed a strong correlation by which the galleys seem to appear not too long after the camps (albeit not in the earliest stages of the game).

[nbarclay]

The upcoming turn is 41, and this is the right thread for it.

Vox doesn't have Alphabet yet, so they can't have started Writing. The real problem is that if Vox reneges on the second phase of the tech trade and we research Writing before Iron Working, we give them a nice window of opportunity to attack before we get Iron Working and get an iron source hooked up. And if I were Vox, I don't think I'd renege on the tech trade unless it was part of a plan to attack; at least not without some sort of diplomatic effort to smooth things over. (Although it's possible that Vox is delaying because they don't have a handy source of iron; you don't suppose their worker's activities are aimed at hooking up a supply from the Spinebreakers, do you?)

Nathan

[Shiber]

Re: Re: Re: Turn 41

Originally posted by nbarclay
Writing; we just got Alphabet.

Sorry, that's what I meant to type.

This is difficult. I can think of a dozen different tricks that Vox can play on us to delay our research or to backstab us.

[DeepO]

Interesting idea, iron in the Spinebreakers... that would explain a lot!

I know the timing isn't really good, but how long will writing and IW take us, 25 turns? If Vox is going to attack, and reach us in 25 turns, we can defend with WCs... I don't see a major force coming our way. Most likely, they don't have a barracks yet, and not enough cash to upgrade a decent immortal force... but of course, this can change quite rapidly.

DeepO

[nbarclay]

I hate the idea of having only WCs to defend with. For one thing, a lot of our potential city sites, including the prime site on the gold hill, can't be defended adequately with WCs. For another, Vox can get effective combat units both by building and by upgrading warriors, whereas we can get them only by building, and that would give them the best shot at competing with our production capacity that they'll ever get.

And remember that after we discover Iron Working, we still have to hook up an iron supply. That could easily give them another ten turns or more beyond when we finish researching Iron Working. (On the other hand, I think 25 turns for Writing+Iron Working is a bit high, especially considering the new cities we'll have coming online during that time.) Or if we get Iron Working and find out there's no iron around, we'll need another military tech to have forces capable of entering mountains or jungles.

Nathan

[Shiber]

I've been watching Eli's slow units vs. fast units thread in the strat forum, and I'm getting the impression that they'll want to road deeper into our territory before they start sending down immortals.
Plus, keep in mind that they don't really know where exactly our cities are positioned, or how far south this island stretches. When they send an invasion force, it will most likely make a few wrong turns on the way.

Anyway, the point is - even with IW, we'll need iron. We most likely don't have iron yet, and we'll need to build another settler and send him to the nearest iron deposit - probably the spinebreakers.
WCs appear to be our best solution in case of an invasion. I suspect Vox knows that we stop researching whenever we finish a tech to wait for their answer, according to the power graph. They will most likely pull off the same trick that they tried last time in order to delay our research. We need to stop doing this and research writing, whether or not Vox replies by the time turn 41 arrives.

[nbarclay]

I checked the research costs Sir Ralph posted with Turn 39, and at our current income, we'd be looking at 14 turns for Writing and 10 for Iron Working. We'll have some additional income from extra cities and larger sizes in EotS and Hurricane by the time we're done, but we're still looking at at least 20 turns before we find out where iron is and get a chance to hook it up.

I don't feel at all comfortable with that against Persia and its immortals, especially given that iron is most likely to appear in areas where WCs would be next to useless for defense. What happens if we get caught where the only way we can expand much north of EotS and defend our cities is to fight using archers for control of a source of iron?

[zeit]

I say research writing, Vox's backstabe wont come for a little while, and eventually we'll trade IW with them, after explaining them what it means that they won't cooperate (and they seem to enjoy this state of temporary peace). They want to get they're road ready before attacking, and that would take time. And, if what we think about Vox's territory is true, then it would take them even longer to mount a serious offensive. In the meantime, we should take advantage of their (limited) willingness to cooperate and deal techs, we will need this in the future, when everyone will probably be dealing techs, and we won't have anyone to trade with (sniff, sniff )- I say no to the (Voxian) delay, and yes for researching writing.

[nbarclay]

Message back from Vox. I'll post it in the ambassador's office and start work on a reply. It looks like they're having a hard time believing our research rate.

[Harovan]

Turn arrived.

[DeepO]

Sir Ralph, maybe best not to rush it...

DeepO

[Harovan]

Tech trade declined, as we already know. I will offer it again and hope for our diplomats to send an appropriate note.

The barbarian went 7 and threatens the Voxian road builders. Shall I attack it or go for the camp, risking a veteran Voxian warrior?

[Harovan]

Ok, I agree not to rush it, but in this case Nathan has to take over, I can't stay up forever. Either I play it now, or he plays it later and we discuss things a little. Although I won't participate for long, I'm getting tired.

[nbarclay]

I can play it, and we definitely need to come to a decision on whether to keep stockpiling gold (my favored option) or start researching again. I hate to hold up our research, but with how untrustworthy Vox now appears to be, I don't think we dare delay Iron Working to research Writing if Vox doesn't live up to their trade deal, and I have a lot fewer reservations about having a gold reserve for possible warrior upgrades than I might otherwise.

Nathan

[Harovan]

My favored compromise would be to wait exactly one more turn with 100% taxes, offer Alphabet again and tell them, that if they don't fullfill their part and accept it immediately, the deal is void once and forever, and word of them being untrustworthy trade partners will reach the other civs as soon as contact is made.