Announcement

**alva** · January 5, 2003, 22:25

1. We just met GS, shall we prepare for war or not
2. Do need more defense or can we trust GS (:roleyes:

)

etc.

**DeepO** · January 5, 2003, 22:43

Sounds good... I've been doing it for while, and will add here when I can think of it. But right now, this body needs sleep

DeepO

**Harovan** · January 5, 2003, 23:07

I never was good in roleplaying. But I will lurk here.

**Shiber** · January 6, 2003, 04:06

Do we respect agreements with GS and create a trust-based relationship, at least for now, or do we violate them this early (e.g. keeping the warrior fortified in the Isthmus).

**Conqueror** · January 6, 2003, 06:07

If i would be Vox, i would NOT move that warrior out of the isthmus even how much GS diplomats tried to persuade me. I'd just sit there and smile. Map information is that much important. If i had the chanse, i'd send a spearman there, too, as fast as possible without delaying expansion.
Even if GS would settle the hill next to isthmus and ask "leave or declare war", i would not leave. I would pack more spears there and fortify them maybe along with few catapults to pound the GS city.

**Meshelic** · January 6, 2003, 06:15

I agree with Conqueror on this one.

If I was Vox, I would not take their demands too seriously, if they made any at all. If the GS were so infuriated by our presence on the neck of the isthmus then they must have something to hide. They are probably located nearby, and if not, I would look further.

I would not prepare for war, but would block their route into the continent itself [although I don't know if there's a continent or not] at nearly all costs. There is no reason for them to expand past the isthmus into our territory, so I'd stick around and defend if they attack.

**DeepO** · January 6, 2003, 08:22

First of all, I, as a Voxian, will be a lot more careful when sending diplomatic messages. I have to agree that the only proper action is to move, as we were the first to say we want and give the right to explore. Indeed, as the GS diplomats have pointed out, I'm violating that here.

Maybe I can delay it a little bit, but I'm not certain if I want to wage war with GS, which will certainly happen if I keep blocking the Neck. They are powerful, and maybe our immortals are better then their WCs, but we'll need a lot of them, because most likely they will have spotted us, and can build up a defense for many turns before our immortals reach their targets.

GS says they want to trade, but they don't seem very convinced of it. They asked us a bunch of questions, but instead of answering them theirselves, they more or less sent an ultimatum that if Thadeus doesn't move, all trades are off. They have to trade with someone, so maybe there is a ot of land to eplxore on the other side of them. We do need to scout their land, no matter what.

What if Thadeus was to move? Of course, we need to take the tile back immediately, or we risk being flooded by many warriors, we saw another close, and this turn, we're seeing another 2. Those can't be allowed onto our land. But what is the consequence of moving Thadeus only for their scout Grog to pass? One of our cities isn't defended yet, don't we risk that GS backstabs us once they find it, and destroy our city? They say they want to play honorably, but we haven't heard much about it, and certainly we haven't seen much.

They are militaristic, with a team where the best strategians rule the war cabinet, which was first made clear on their own thread in the general forum (where more then a few hints at archer rushes were given), and again in last message, where they threatened to kill our "spies". Phuh. spies. Those are hard working explorers, not spies. But back to my line of thought: I know the archer rushes were more or less invented in this team, and luckily we seem far enough apart for this to be practical. But, they picked the civ with one of the best ancient UUs, most likely because archers aren't so good, but where they fail, WCs flourish. It's a good thing that the Isthmus is further protected with a few tiles of jungle that Tim just found (it seems to stretch from coast to coast), but how long will it take their workers to cut that down?

But, our immortals will certainly be feared by them. Once we get Monarchy, we can put them to good use. We already have a trading partner, so we don't need the GS per se, if they were not so good we wouldn't hesitate to attack them. Maybe, just maybe, can we trade with GS instead, and attack Civ X. But attacking they will do

DeepO

**FrustratedPoet** · January 6, 2003, 09:30

Originally posted by DeepO
with a team where the best strategians rule the war cabinet,

First of all, if I was Vox I would concentrate on my own game and not give a **** about the supposed skills of anyone on opposing teams. Thinking that any team is naturally better than any other is stupid - especially at this stage of the game when so much depends on the terrain and the luck of the RMG.

As a member of Vox I know we have a big advantage and I wouldn't give it up for anything.
We have control of the isthmus and we have explorers in GS territory. I wouldn't trade them BW in a 'fair trade' because I don't want to help GS out at all.
Trading BW for them is like saying "I don't mind if you have Spearmen, go ahead and make them". Well, I don't want GS to have spearmen.
I can see that GS have quite a lot of forest and mountains and I'll take Immortals versus WC's in that terrain any day of the week.

I would start researching IW right now (if haven't already started) and would prepare for war immeditely. Live enemies are dangerous enemies. I have the upper hand and I might not get a better chance than this.

**DeepO** · January 6, 2003, 09:59

Hmm... true FP, to some extent.

I, the wannabee Voxian, am not that convinced that we don't need to take in mind what kind of members our foes consist of. I haven't seen those mountains and forest yet, I only know the jungle, and the start of a few mountains, of which I have no idea were they lead to. I know I'm protected for the moment, but I fear those WCs, as they will be good on defense anyway. But, believing in ourselves is imperative, and maybe we choose Persia because of their traits, their UU is powerful, and not to be underestimated. Sure, it was one of the things to research first, [out of role] which I believe they either have already, or are very close at gaining[/out of role], and surely we will want to use them. The problem is of course that if we start attacking GS now, we will trigger our GA, and by the time we reach what we have explored already (where GS is not to be found), they can build some good troops.

I can imagine that GS has researched the wheel first, as they need it for their UU. If I am smart, I will have found they don't have spears yet. But then again, if I'm smart I will recognise that spears aren't the best defense against our fierce immortals, those damn WCs are. Maybe we should try to build a few horsies ourselves, to better deal with this threat, if only because they can be great for disrupting GS's economical progress.

I've just moved Thadeus onto our Isthmus, of which I know it is for this moment an unpassable barrier. I do want to get another scout onto the other side of what is already ours, but I'm hesitating. After all, 2 warriors are not to be taken lightly, but I spotted 2 of GS's warriors close, if they decide to attack Thadeus, there is no turning back, as with a bit of bad luck he will fall. With 2 warriors, there is no problem.

What is a problem is that we have no defense in our 2 cities anymore, but one of the first thing to do is build some. But, if we just build one spear to block the Isthmus, we don't need defense, and we can focus on settling new cities. The request of GS to scout our lands should therefore be ignored, even if it is not very honorable of ours... but who cares what they think of us. They won't be in a position to attack the Isthmus fast, and once they do, we should be able to more then adequately defend it. After all, it's just a few tiles away from our cities.

DeepO

**DeepO** · January 6, 2003, 10:52

I've been thinking on the barb comment of Vox. Why would they say such a thing? And how can we correlate it with our own experiences?

1. They didn't see any huts, and believe barbs to be not-present (hence no huts). So, they don't mind leaving their cities undefended, as no barb will attack them. This means they will have gotten their 4th warrior from chopping, and ceremonial burial from trade (as I can't imagine they would be researching it).
2. They saw a lot of barb camps already, perhaps 2 in short order. But, it doesn't stroke with our own experiences, and given their presumably smaller territory it would be strange. So far we haven't seen anything indicating barbs, except the presence of huts (BTW, wasn't this changed in PTW by any chance? I know that in Civ3, no barbs means no huts, but could this be changed into few huts? On al our explored land, we only found one hut, which seems less then normal (but you never know with RNGs)

Could there be another reason why Vox would say that random settings explain a lot? And if we see to our own exploration, I'd be inclined to believe it was #1: they saw no huts, and thought there were no barbs. Let's hope that those nasty barbs sack their cities soon

DeepO

**Arrian** · January 6, 2003, 11:10

If I was Vox, I definitely would not move Thadeus. He stays put, and gets reinforced when possible.

I would then concentrate on building a solid core group of cities, while trading some tech with the other civ (assuming they aren't lying... which I don't think they are) and researching IW at minimum science. Yes folks, minimum science. IW can then either be used to upgrade several warriors to Immortals and launch an attack, or as tasty trade bait.

Upon getting IW, figuring out the iron situation (do they have it, if so how long to hook it up, does it slow overall REXing to do it right away: all the stuff we've discussed with regard to horses), the next step is to decide whether or not to attack GS. Given the exploration situation, Vox will know more about GS than GS knows about Vox, granting Vox a tactical advantage. The jungle is another. However, GS's war chariots provide a mobility edge to help counter the awesome attack power of Immortals.

If I'm them, I'd hit us. I'd go for a 10-15 warrior to immortal upgrade, sacrificing research for cash. Throw in a few spearmen as cover, and charge. They can stay peaceful and trade with the other civ while hitting us. If they can conquer us, they're all set. They run the risk of a protracted war against a skilled foe, but the rewards of success are great. I'd do it.

-Arrian

**DeepO** · January 6, 2003, 11:27

But it is a risk... IW at minimal research gives 40 turns, and somewhere around 400 gold (provided they build barracks, which need to be maintained). 10 immortals in 40 turns won't be enough to fully conquer us, 12 (for which they have enough gold to upgrade warriors) might, 15 is safe, but unrealistic. The moment they cross the Isthmuss, they will be spotted, which means we(GS) have some 13 turns to weaken their stack, for which we have various opportunities (before reaching the mountains, after it for 2 turns, etc.). Those 13 turns alone would be enough to rush over 10 WCs, added to the already present defense their immortals are toast before they reach EotS (they might be able to take some border cities).

So, taking GS out is no option on their own, and once they started this, they can be garantueed to get into a long and painful war. Maybe their initial attack was enough to secure the whole continent, but by the time Vox succeeds, it will see the first galleys with settlers appearing on what they call Estonia. It is not a good strat to win, and given that there are enough intelligent members (apart from some other elements), they have to realise this too.

What is possible is that they seek an alliance, so that all of this can be speeded up. If they can send out 15 immortals 25 turns from now, we will be toast. But their own economy can't be strong enough to support this.

DeepO

**Arrian** · January 6, 2003, 11:42

Of course, we could always pray to the civ gods that they don't have iron.

-Arrian
(I still think they're gonna hit us)

**nbarclay** · January 6, 2003, 13:13

If I'm Vox, I recognize that a major early war with GS would cause enormous damage to both teams' global standings. Plus, I definitely don't want to blow my GA. On the other hand, if GS gets knights without at least being crippled first, I'm probably toast because knowing who's on their team, they won't hesitate to use WC-to-knight upgrades to take me out. (If I play things right, I should be able to take advantage of my road network and immortals to handle a WC attack - I hope.)

There are four times when I might be able to launch an attack on GS on favorable terms:

1) Any time when I have a significant force of immortals and they are heavily invested in cities on terrain I can get my immortals to without having them attacked by WCs first. I want to control the jungles and mountains north of GS, but not at the expense of triggering a premature GA without doing major damage to GS in return.

(2) If I can use my trading partnership to get to Monarchy first, that could give me the edge I need in a GA vs. GA war, especially if the terrain keeps favoring me the way it does so far.

(3) There's a window in the early medieval era where as long as I'm ahead in tech, I'll have pikemen to defend my immortals from their WCs and they won't have knights. That would be a truly perfect situation (especially if I can get far enough ahead that they don't even have pikemen to defend against the initial attacks), but it's dangerous to count on because if GS can catch back up in research, the window may not be long enough.

(4) If I can maintain my tech lead, I can also get knights first, so I could use horseman-to-knight upgrades to attack. Although as long as they don't have knights, I might be better off sticking with a combination of immortals and pikemen for scratch-built units rather than building knights from scratch.

If I can even just seriously cripple GS, I don't have to worry so much about being destroyed by them and can then shift my focus to the other teams.

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