Dimplomatic Scholia: Ambassador's Office - Vox Controli

[nbarclay]

Here's my (very, very long) chat with Jon Miller. It started off well enough that I decided to feel out the possibility for a long-term symbiotic relationship. I really think it's possible if we can just shake loose from the feedback loop of mistrust we've been in. The chat is long enough I'll have to break it into two parts.

19:45] *** Now talking in the Cool Channel #voxcontroli
[19:45] < nbarclay > Jon, is this where you wanted me to go, or am I trespassing?
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > hi
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > no you are not
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > ok
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > I didn't even notice you join
[19:48] < Jon_Miller > my inbox is getting full again and I don't want to delete more for a few days at least
[19:49] < Jon_Miller > you there?
[19:49] < nbarclay > The problem with your proposal as it stands now is that you get the benefit of our faster research pace, while we have no definite time at which we can expect to get the benefit of your contact advantage. That seriously undermines the idea that there
[19:49] < nbarclay > is any kind of real balance in the proposal.
[19:49] < Jon_Miller > hmm, you are right that there is an issue there
[19:49] < Jon_Miller > we could play it foa bit
[19:49] < Jon_Miller > how many techs do you have that we dont?
[19:49] < Jon_Miller > I think all we ave right now (or will have soon) is IW and CW
[19:50] < Jon_Miller > Bucs just scored
[19:50] < nbarclay > Alphabet is the only one. Yes, we can research faster, but your trade for Iron Working caught you up. (Well, that plus a couple delays where we had to stockpile gold waiting for responses from you.)
[19:51] < nbarclay > CW???
[19:51] < Jon_Miller > WC oops
[19:51] < Jon_Miller > so we would be even right now, and we could see where it went from here
[19:52] < Jon_Miller > if one sides feels the other is not holding up (for a sig length of time) it can be ended
[19:53] < Jon_Miller > if you had way mroe techs than us I would understand your problems with the idea
[19:53] < Jon_Miller > because it would seem like we were stealing your techs and not delivering
[19:54] < Jon_Miller > do you know anyway to see the tech tree from inside the editor?
[19:54] < Jon_Miller > it is hard to just see one at a time
[19:54] < nbarclay > I don't know how to do it better than one tech at a time. Sorry.
[19:54] < nbarclay > (At least not for tech costs.)
[19:55] < nbarclay > [Thinking]
[19:56] < Jon_Miller > I have up both civ3 and the editor
[19:57] < Jon_Miller > another tamp td
[19:57] < nbarclay > You do have a point that for however long the arrangement lasts, it stops you from using your advantage in being able to trade to a civ we don't have contact with to pull ahead of us. That's definitely worth considering.
[19:58] < Jon_Miller > yes
[19:59] < Jon_Miller > note the other civ does not have this even thing
[19:59] < Jon_Miller > so they might pull some, however, they are not doing well in other ways
[19:59] < Jon_Miller > we are trying to convince them though
[20:00] < Jon_Miller > I will be back in a bit
[20:01] < nbarclay > Right. It sounds like basically, what we would be doing is operating as a single entity with regard to our trade relationship with the rest of the world. Lux could join us, or they could be part of "the rest of the world" that we're competing with.
[20:01] < nbarclay > Does that pretty much summarize the concept?
[20:01] < Jon_Miller > yes
[20:04] < Jon_Miller > actually since outside they have writing, horsebackriding might be better
[20:06] < nbarclay > One of my main goals is to get to Republic ASAP. We need Writing to get there, and with Gathering Storm's research power, even if they get Writing first, we'd have a decent shot at a branch lead beyond that.
[20:06] < Jon_Miller > branch lead?
[20:06] < nbarclay > A lead on a particular branch of the tech tree.
[20:07] < Jon_Miller > ahh, yes, a better way of expressing the idea than my teir one
[20:07] < Jon_Miller > we are learning for monarchy (because that is what the civ above us wants)
[20:08] < Jon_Miller > our taem is somewhat unknowledgable compared to you, we are elarning as we go along
[20:08] < Jon_Miller > especially about multiplayer stuff
[20:10] < nbarclay > The problem with your going for Monarchy is that it's not something two civs working together can leverage very well. Further, Monarchy doesn't yield anywhere near as much gold for further research once you get there.
[20:10] < Jon_Miller > yah, we have thought about it actually
[20:10] < Jon_Miller > but not until recently
[20:11] < Jon_Miller >
[20:11] < nbarclay > What I'd been thinking we might do beyond Writing, if we could build up a strong enough relationship between our civs, is have us go for Code of Laws while you go for Philosophy (which is a lot cheaper but still an obstacle to Republic).
[20:11] < nbarclay > Once both techs are researched, we would then be in a position to head straight for Republic.
[20:11] < Jon_Miller > yes
[20:12] < Jon_Miller > which might give us a good tech position compared to the other civs
[20:12] < nbarclay > (And while we're working on Writing, you could pursue something along another branch and try for a trade.)
[20:12] < Jon_Miller > yes
[20:12] < Jon_Miller > a good idea
[20:12] < Jon_Miller > raiders TA
[20:12] < Jon_Miller > TD
[20:14] < nbarclay > I seriously doubt that any single civ will be able to keep up with us in tech along a single path, so if we can get help with Philosophy (and especially if we can get Literature from someone so we can build libraries along the way),
[20:14] < Jon_Miller > we are persuing mysticism now
[20:14] < nbarclay > there's a good chance we could be first to Republic. From there, picking up other techs could be a whole lot cheaper.
[20:15] < Jon_Miller > and if we have the lead, we can get the most advantage from trade
[20:16] < Jon_Miller > and republic is a good reason to be at peace also
[20:16] < nbarclay > By the way, there are a couple questions that have been nagging at us. BetaHound sounded like there might be other land connected with yours besides ours. Would you mind clarifying that situation?
[20:17] < nbarclay > (The reason I ask is we're wondering whether our direction is the only one you can expand in.)
[20:17] < Jon_Miller > its very close, but not quite connected
[20:18] < Jon_Miller > so yes, no expansion that way
[20:20] < Jon_Miller > you there/
[20:20] < Jon_Miller > ?
[20:20] < nbarclay > Yes, just thinking.
[20:20] < Jon_Miller > about attacking us?
[20:21] < nbarclay > Actually, to be perfectly honest, trying to find a viable way to avoid such unpleasantness.
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > that is what I am trying to do
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > the reason why I have taken over diploamcy with GS
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > my team is very edgy
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > worried about being gained up on
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > and attacked with oyur army of chariots
[20:23] < Jon_Miller > RAiders TD
[20:23] < Jon_Miller > I think that we have more reason to be freinds, than enemies
[20:24] < nbarclay > Basically, ever since we've met, I've seen two possibilities. Either GS and Vox can be very close partners, or one can swallow the other.
[20:24] < nbarclay > Question (and I hope my teammates don't kill me for being so frank when they read this): How intent is Vox on trying to win the game rather than just do well?
[20:24] < Jon_Miller > yes
[20:25] < Jon_Miller > I want to stay in the game
[20:25] < Jon_Miller > an attack by us (even if we win) will put us far enough behind the other nations
[20:25] < Jon_Miller > in tech and the like, that they will walk over us later
[20:25] < Jon_Miller > I don't know about you
[20:26] < nbarclay > Given our starting position and the caliber of players on our team, it's hard to imagine us settling for less than a win unless someone forces us to.
[20:26] < Jon_Miller > you have nto had as much contact with the rest
[20:26] < Jon_Miller > that's what we are afraid of
[20:27] < Jon_Miller > are you refering to a win overall, or a win of a war between us
[20:27] < Jon_Miller > ??
[20:27] < nbarclay > Win overall.
[20:27] < Jon_Miller > the other nations are pretty sure that we will go to war, I would like us to not do so
[20:27] < nbarclay > (And I for one am not fond of conquest victories, by the way.)
[20:27] < Jon_Miller > mostly because I want a good place among the other nations, Vox is not competing jsut against GS
[20:28] < Jon_Miller > we are competing against all the rest
[20:28] < Jon_Miller > and I think that if either of our teams ignore this, that it will be for our loss
[20:28] < nbarclay > If your goal is to survive and prosper, and our goal is to win the game, our goals are not inherently incompatible. I've been sort of hoping that was the case, because I've had a plan floating around in the back of my mind.
[20:28] < Jon_Miller > which is?
[20:29] < Jon_Miller > we are trying to win, however, a conquest against you will nto favor that (at least not at this time) in my beleif
[20:30] < Jon_Miller > (we won't give you all but one city, nor will we be your vassals, we want an a treaty and one I think would benifit both of us)
[20:31] < Jon_Miller > you there?
[20:31] < nbarclay > Basically, my idea is not too different from yours, except perhaps on a grander scale. (And I'll warn you, this will be a tough sell to my own team, especially given that our relationship to date has not left GS in a trusting mood.)
[20:32] < Jon_Miller > neither on our side, but some of that is because we are scared of your team (and yoru charriots)
[20:33] < nbarclay > Just to be clear, we have an agreement within GS that we will not lie to other teams. Maybe a little misdirection, but that's it.
[20:34] < Jon_Miller > We cahnge our minds at times, as I am sure you are aware, mostly becasue we find the game being differently than we thought
[20:35] < nbarclay > My vision would start with a partnership researching down different paths and trading techs. Eventually, the best "two civs as a single entity" model would change from that, though, to something else.
[20:36] < Jon_Miller > to what?
[20:36] < nbarclay > After a certain point, upkeep costs start seriously eating into research rates. If the civ with less income funnels gold into the one with a greater income in return for techs, that basically lets the team research with the income of two civs.
[20:37] < nbarclay > Better, the team could also trade with other civs for techs on branches they aren't pursuing at a given time.
[20:37] < Jon_Miller > hmm, that is an obvious extension
[20:37] < Jon_Miller > my team has not thoght about it
[20:38] < Jon_Miller > makes sense though
[20:38] < nbarclay > That might be construed as a "vassal" relationship of sorts, but the civ providing the money could still research far, far faster that way than on its own.
[20:39] < nbarclay > And from our perspective, your palace could almost serve as an extra, "free" forbidden palace for us.
[20:39] < nbarclay > That would provide a way for our two civs to coexist and prosper in spite of being stuck on a relatively small land mass.
[20:40] < Jon_Miller > or the other way arround, what if we research faster than you?
[20:40] < Jon_Miller > but yes, money for tech is a good deal, in my mind
[20:40] < Jon_Miller > and if that al;lows the other side to ina way learn at twice the speed?
[20:40] < Jon_Miller > even better
[20:42] < Jon_Miller > that seems to be just workign on what each does btter
[20:42] < Jon_Miller > makes sense for an alliance
[20:42] < nbarclay > One other idea is that the alliance could be extended to military operations. Imagine WCs and immortals fighting side by side.
[20:42] < Jon_Miller > yes, I like that idea
[20:43] < Jon_Miller > and there is iron on this island, enough for both of us
[20:43] < Jon_Miller > (maybe more where you are)
[20:43] < nbarclay > That's good to know. Thanks.
[20:44] < Jon_Miller > just to make certain, you are still fine with us building above those mountains?
[20:44] < Jon_Miller > that wasn't a misdirection?
[20:45] < Jon_Miller > you watching the game? or not a football fan
[20:46] < nbarclay > We'd hoped (since before we even knew of your existance, actually) to build a city just a tile or so north of the "Sierra Centralis." Giving that up would be a bit tough, although it might make sense if we can form the kind of partnership I'd like to see
[20:46] < nbarclay > Not a football fan unless a team I especially like is playing, anyhow.
[20:46] < Jon_Miller > is it on the west side? we are planning on building their soon
[20:47] < Jon_Miller > we really son't have much room to the north
[20:47] < nbarclay > Yes, on the west side near the wheat and fish. Obviously, we have the same taste in city sites.
[20:47] < Jon_Miller > yah, that is where a settler is heading
[20:47] < Jon_Miller > hmmm
[20:51] < Jon_Miller > do tyouhave a settler heading there now?
[20:51] < Jon_Miller > it is the best site we can build right now
[20:51] < nbarclay > No; we feel like it's in our best interest to settle sites closer to home where corruption is lower at the moment.
[20:52] < Jon_Miller > we, you are better than we are
[20:52] < Jon_Miller > maybe we shouldconsder that
[20:53] < nbarclay > That might be another advantage to a partnership from your perspective - advice from the experts.
[20:54] < Jon_Miller > lol
[20:54] < Jon_Miller > how do you log a chatt?
[20:54] < Jon_Miller > I would like to pass this on to my members
[20:55] < nbarclay > Good question. So far, my screen buffer hasn't overrun, so I can cut and paste into a word processor if I can't come up with a better solution.
[20:55] < Jon_Miller > and we would of course pass of our luxs and resources to our partners first
[20:56] < nbarclay > Would you mind exchanging information about what luxuries each side has? We'd proposed that when we first met, but you didn't seem interested at the time.
[20:56] < Jon_Miller > we don't have extra
[20:56] < Jon_Miller > we will have extra iron though
[20:57] < nbarclay > Furs and/or incense, or something else?
[20:57] < Jon_Miller > something else
[20:57] < Jon_Miller > I think...
[20:57] < Jon_Miller >
[20:58] < Jon_Miller > nope, not something else
[20:58] < nbarclay > But just one in your whole area? That sounds odd.
[20:58] < Jon_Miller > we don't have much area
[21:00] < nbarclay > Still, it doesn't usually take much area with the map generator's algorithms.
[21:00] < nbarclay > As I said, odd.
[21:00] < Jon_Miller > we have other resources
[21:00] < Jon_Miller > lie iron
[21:02] < nbarclay > The biggest problem I see with selling GS on the alliance idea is the matter of trust. There have been enough awkward moments that the general impression seems to be that Vox is unstable and not trustworthy.
[21:02] < Jon_Miller > we will put iron working up, is that enough?
[21:02] < nbarclay > (I hope you don't take offense at my frankness, but I think it's important for you to understand the situation.)
[21:03] < Jon_Miller > and yes, we have similiar issues on our side, however, enoguh want peace that I think I can swing it
[21:03] < Jon_Miller > I can also be fairly persuasive
[21:03] < nbarclay > If we can go ahead with the Iron Working for Alphabet trade (which would keep Lux from profiting from an Alphabet sale), that would go a long way toward setting the stage for a possible partnership.
[21:03] < Jon_Miller > we would want it as part of a further deal
[21:04] < Jon_Miller > if you think that it is such, than good
[21:04] < nbarclay > The best I can promise right now is that I'll do my very best to make sure you get something more one way or another.
[21:04] < Jon_Miller > if it is not, than we are thinking that you will go to war with us
[21:04] < Jon_Miller > we will offer IW
[21:05] < Jon_Miller > there will be some time beofre it goes through, there can be a conclusion
[21:05] < Jon_Miller > but realise that I ahve been very honest with you and very open
[21:05] < nbarclay > I don't have the same power on GS that you seem to on Vox, but I like to think my persuasion skills aren't bad either.
[21:05] < Jon_Miller > we can have a bigger chat
[21:06] < Jon_Miller > and if my team does not feel I am doing well, than I could be in trouble
[21:06] < Jon_Miller > but in a bigger chat
[21:07] < Jon_Miller > you can invite more of your team, we can than talk to them
[21:07] < Jon_Miller > (there are 5 main members of Vox + 1 minor, I am fairly certain of 2 other main members)
[21:07] < Jon_Miller > (being with me)
[21:08] < Jon_Miller > your team can question me, hoepfull I can convince them of mine, and Voxs, honesty
[21:09] < nbarclay > A bigger chat right now isn't possible; too much of our team (the part that lives in Europe) is asleep. But we can try to set something up sometime.
[21:09] < Jon_Miller > ok, but soon
[21:09] < Jon_Miller > my team would need it soon
[21:10] < nbarclay > What time zone are you in?
[21:10] < Jon_Miller > east
[21:10] < Jon_Miller > USA
[21:10] < Jon_Miller > I am up all hours but mid morning
[21:10] < Jon_Miller > (I go to sleep at 5 and wake up at 12)
[21:11] < nbarclay > Maybe we can try to line something up for around 8:00 p.m. your time tomorrow. I'm not sure how it will work out, but it seems worth a try.
[21:12] < Jon_Miller > ok
[21:13] < nbarclay > So are we agreed that a long-term alliance would be good for both our civs, if we can just convince our respective teams of it?
[21:15] < Jon_Miller > yes
[21:15] < Jon_Miller > I am convinced of it

[nbarclay]

Chat, continued.

[21:19] < nbarclay > I guess the big thing still up in the air is the tech trade situation. One possibility (assuming you still have the turn) would be for you to go ahead and accept Alphabet and offer Iron Working. If we accept the deal, it will constitute a commitment
[21:19] < Jon_Miller > and your side will similiarly be true?
[21:20] < Jon_Miller > I don't want just a maybe, since I feel that if you don't ally, that we will be facing an attack soon
[21:20] < Jon_Miller > I can ask my players to sit on it for a while, until this is decided
[21:20] < nbarclay > from Gathering Storm to either accept your deal for a "trade all the technologies we get for an indefinite time" agreement or provide something else as compensation for the fact that you can get Alphabet cheaply. And not to attack you while we're
[21:20] < nbarclay > working out the details.
[21:21] < Jon_Miller > I will present that to my team, I think they will agree with that
[21:22] < nbarclay > A war soon is the last thing GS wants, for much the reasons you've outlined. It would be too expensive even to the winning civ.
[21:23] < Jon_Miller > yes
[21:23] < Jon_Miller > I agree
[21:23] < nbarclay > (Well maybe not quite the last thing - it might be possible to provoke us into one - but it would take a situation we regard as very serious.)
[21:23] < Jon_Miller > but my team is scared
[21:24] < Jon_Miller > I am sure it won't come to that
[21:24] < Jon_Miller > I feel very good about our conversation
[21:24] < Jon_Miller > the reason why I am FA with you is because my team is scared
[21:25] < Jon_Miller > I will tell them that I think that you will take the peace treaty
[21:25] < Jon_Miller > I tihnk that will calm them down
[21:26] < Jon_Miller > we want to build settlers, not troops
[21:26] < Jon_Miller > I am sure you do also
[21:26] < Jon_Miller >
[21:26] < Jon_Miller > (and workers)
[21:27] < Jon_Miller > you there?
[21:27] < nbarclay > Definitely, settlers and workers first. That's the only way either of us has any chance of competing with the rest of the world.
[21:28] < Jon_Miller > yes
[21:28] < Jon_Miller > that is why I want peace
[21:28] < Jon_Miller > 48-21 BWT
[21:28] < Jon_Miller > BTW
[21:29] < Jon_Miller > the line of the southern mountains (for us)
[21:29] < nbarclay > Here's something else to convey to your team. For the time being, you have nothing to fear from us unless you do something to make us pretty mad. But the day will come when GS has to decide whether Vox is worth more to us as allies or
[21:29] < Jon_Miller > the day shold come quickly
[21:30] < nbarclay > as conquered territory. If your actions give us reason to fear and mistrust you, you can guess which choice we are likely to make. Again, just stating facts in the interest of openness.
[21:30] < Jon_Miller > yes
[21:31] < Jon_Miller > I want a peace treaty
[21:32] < Jon_Miller > hopefully GS does also
[21:35] < nbarclay > For the time being, we definitely want peace. Longer-term, the issue of trust is an obstacle that will have to be overcome.
[21:37] < Jon_Miller > well, you know a lot mroe about Vox, than I know about GS
[21:37] < nbarclay > What do you mean about my knowing more about Vox?
[21:37] < Jon_Miller > you know more about what are position is
[21:38] < Jon_Miller > and youa re a better team (have very talented players)
[21:40] < nbarclay > I guess we do have a bit more land that you haven't seen than you do that we haven't seen, although we've traded descriptions to a certian extent.
[21:40] < Jon_Miller > yah, but I just gave you more description
[21:43] < nbarclay > Not a whole lot more, unless I missed something.
[21:44] < Jon_Miller > but important stuff
[21:46] < nbarclay > Maybe. The iron situation is interesting to know, but not something we won't learn for ourselves (aside from what might be on North Estonia) when we get Iron Working. The fact that Lux is separated by water is something we'd already guessed from your
[21:47] < nbarclay > ability to focus every single warrior you had at one point in the game in our direction.
[21:47] < Jon_Miller > hmm, yah, it could be guessed
[21:47] < Jon_Miller > even if you had went through there, I don't think you could have met the other civ
[21:48] < nbarclay > One of your cities in the way, or a case of warriors have to be on both sides at exactly the right time?
[21:49] < nbarclay > (Both sides of the water, that is)
[21:49] < Jon_Miller > I think maybe both might be the case, or maybe only one
[21:49] < Jon_Miller > I would have to go find the screen shot again
[21:50] < Jon_Miller > I have made so many posts in this game
[21:50] < Jon_Miller > I only became a King recently, even though I ahve been here since early 99
[21:51] < Jon_Miller > if you want I could go find te screen shot
[21:51] < Jon_Miller > deffinitely the second one
[21:51] < nbarclay > Yeah, it's amazing how quickly this sort of thing can increase one's post count.
[21:51] < nbarclay > Thanks.
[21:52] < nbarclay > Anything else to talk about, or have we pretty much covered what needs covered for the time being?
[21:55] < nbarclay > Hello?
[21:55] < Jon_Miller > yes
[21:55] < Jon_Miller > sorry, I went for a bit
[21:56] < Jon_Miller > I think so, until we can talk to your membes that are not in favor off the peace treaty
[21:57] < nbarclay > I'll see what I can do about lining up a larger chat for tomorrow at 8:00 P.M. Eastern time.
[21:57] < nbarclay > Do we want to meet in the Vox chatroom again?
[21:57] < Jon_Miller > that could work fine
[21:57] < Jon_Miller > I have been psoting the chat log in my forum
[21:57] < Jon_Miller > but I have had to copy paste
[21:57] < Jon_Miller > now I need to take the trash out
[21:58] < nbarclay > Okay, signing off, then. Until tomorrow...

[nbarclay]

Chat log for the multi-way chat with Vox (split into five parts):

[18:26] < Jon_Miller > nbarclay, would you begin?
[18:26] < nbarclay > Jon, you're the one that wanted a bigger get-together with more than just the two of us, it might be better if you get us started.
[18:27] < Jon_Miller > ah, OK
[18:27] < Jon_Miller > Have most of you read or otherwise followed the discussion that I and nbarclay had last time?
[18:27] < asleepathewheel > yes
[18:28] < zeit > I consider myself informed, hope its enough
[18:28] < Jon_Miller > (BTW, I think that the VEC does differently than the GS one in that our play the game and I don't think that GS one does)
[18:28] < Jon_Miller > ok
[18:28] < Jon_Miller > so than I guess that what this is a discussion is for is for an alliance between our two nations
[18:28] < SirRalph > I read all notes and discussions too
[18:29] < Jon_Miller > one, that I feel would be advantageous for us both
[18:29] < Jon_Miller > now some of the issues that nbarclay presented to me is that you might find us untrustworthy?
[18:30] < Jon_Miller > or that some of you might not be as certain about the benefits of an alliance?
[18:31] < Jon_Miller > well, IW is already heading for your capitol
[18:31] < nbarclay > Pardon me. I've had a couple people from GS pass me notes in other IRC windows.
[18:31] < Jon_Miller > so that shold help some
[18:31] < Jon_Miller > OK
[18:32] < nbarclay > There are really three main issues that have caused problems with trust that I can see off the top of my head.
[18:32] < nbarclay > 1) Vox's initial claim to respect our right to explore and hoping we would respect yours, and then blocking our explorer while continuing to explore yourselves.
[18:33] < Jon_Miller > ok
[18:33] < Jon_Miller > I can seek to address that
[18:33] < nbarclay > 2) The slowness of some of the diplomatic negotiations - sometimes it seems as if you couldn't do a better job if you were deliberately trying to hold us up.
[18:33] < Jon_Miller > ok, I will address 1 first
[18:33] < nbarclay > And 3) This latest situation where you made a deal and seemed to be saying that you would absolutely not keep to it because you got a better one.
[18:34] < Jon_Miller > hmm, wait, are you done yet?
[18:34] < nbarclay > Yes.
[18:34] < Jon_Miller > ah, ok
[18:34] < Jon_Miller > I will attempt to address 1 than
[18:34] < Jon_Miller > for the most part it was caused by fear
[18:34] < Jon_Miller > our fear of you
[18:34] < Jon_Miller > you guys have a lot of well known members
[18:35] < Jon_Miller > on your team, and looking at posts you guys have made on apolyton
[18:35] < Jon_Miller > showed that there was a strong interest in the early rush
[18:35] < Jon_Miller > which would work well with your knowledge of WCs
[18:35] < Jon_Miller > now, you guys seem to not be thinking that way anymore
[18:35] < Jon_Miller > but that was our thinking than
[18:36] < zeit > Actually- we never seriously considered an early rush...
[18:36] < Jon_Miller > also, we did not want you to know about how poor our northern continent was
[18:36] < Jon_Miller > because we thought that woudl cause you to rush (because we were very weak for a bit
[18:37] < Jon_Miller > if we could not settle the northern part of the southern continent, we would be finished
[18:37] < Jon_Miller > so we wanted to make sure we had a strong claim to that, before you were aware of how small our northern continent was
[18:38] < Jon_Miller > Zeit- well, a number of your members wrote about early rushes in the strategy threads
[18:38] < nbarclay > I can understand your fear of having our warriors near yours, but do you realize that your warriors are just as powerful and dangerous, and posed a very similar threat to our cities?
[18:38] < zeit > and yours about immortals vs. WC, so?
[18:38] < Jon_Miller > you had WC way before we had immortals
[18:38] < SirRalph > true, jon, but that's about oscillating wars against the AI
[18:39] < Jon_Miller > we expected charriots to come
[18:39] < nbarclay > If you had stopped exploring with your own warriors at the same time you stopped Grog's advance, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as big a deal.
[18:39] < SirRalph > Jon: WCs are not jungle going. You were completely safe, till we'd build a road through the jungle.
[18:39] < Jon_Miller > now that we have IW we feel safer
[18:40] < Jon_Miller > oh, well, we did not know that about WCs at the time
[18:40] < Jon_Miller > we stopped our warriors (or ordered them stopped) as soon as we say the ends of your culture
[18:40] < Jon_Miller > saw
[18:41] < zeit > Than again- you could have told us that you want us both to refrain from early scouting of each one's territory
[18:41] < Jon_Miller > it seemed as if you claimed all of the southern continent
[18:41] < Jon_Miller > we could not have that
[18:41] < Jon_Miller > otherwise we would be stuck with 4 cities tops

[18:41] < zeit > and that would serve your interests of hiding your poor land as well.
[18:42] < Jon_Miller > we weren't trying to scout your territory, we were trying to lay claim to the northern part of the continent
[18:42] < Jon_Miller > as soon as we thought we were coming in on your territory we backed off
[18:42] < nbarclay > What made you think moving warriors south of where our civs met would make us more likely to accept a Vox claim farther south?
[18:43] < Jon_Miller > because it would enable us to see how big the southern continent was
[18:43] < Jon_Miller > and so we could know if there was room for discussion on it
[18:43] < nbarclay > I guess I can see that - you wanted to know whether we had enough land that we could afford to let you claim some of the north?
[18:44] < Jon_Miller > yes
[18:44] < Jon_Miller > if the cont was smaller and you were farther north, I don't think there would be any choice but that our nations go to war (despite how bad that would be in the long term)
[18:45] < Jon_Miller > but, I think, from hearing your ambassadours talk, that there is room for both of us, if we are allies
[18:45] < zeit > small is a relative thing, as one studying modern physics must know..
[18:45] < Jon_Miller > yes
[18:46] < zeit > and for friends, the head of a pin has enough room
[18:46] < Jon_Miller > for freinds yes
[18:46] < zeit > so the question of dividing the land must be solved first as friends- and not as two rivals solely competing
[18:46] < zeit > which is as you said- bad in the long term, for both
[18:47] < nbarclay > Jon, are you by your e-mail account?
[18:47] < Jon_Miller > yah, who ever won the oher would lose (we think) to the other nations
[18:47] < Jon_Miller > yes, I am by all my email accounts
[18:47] < zeit > but for the weaker one- even worse, but you chose a course of action that presumes war
[18:48] < nbarclay > I drew up a possible border earlier today, along with a suggestion for Vox city placement. It reflects the fact that GS has significantly faster settler production but still tries to leave you with a viable core.
[18:48] < Jon_Miller > we did?
[18:48] < Jon_Miller > how many settlers and cities do you have?
[18:48] < Jon_Miller > but I expect it is faster
[18:48] < zeit > although you thought you would lose it, why doing that instead of trying to build trust, why?
[18:49] < nbarclay > We have three cities and a settler on his way to the fourth, but the real key is that when Eye of the Storm is running full tilt, it can crank out settlers in five turns and workers in two.
[18:49] < Jon_Miller > that is much faster
[18:49] < Jon_Miller > we are going to build our 3rd city
[18:49] < Jon_Miller > are land up north is not good for settler production
[18:50] < nbarclay > Anyhow, I don't know that we have a full consensus that the map I drew up is acceptable to us yet - some think it gives you more land than you could get in a straight REXing contest - but I'd like to e-mail it to you and see what you think.
[18:51] < Jon_Miller > I have not received it yet
[18:51] < nbarclay > I said I'd like to, not that I'd already done it. If you'll pardon me for a few seconds?
[18:52] < Jon_Miller > ah, ok
[18:52] < Jon_Miller > have I adressed the first issue well enough?
[18:52] < nbarclay > Okay, it's on its way.
[18:53] < Jon_Miller > for 3 there were issues with us not understanding how the tech trading game was going on outside of our continent
[18:53] < nbarclay > I guess you've addressed the first issue about as much as it can be. But imagine how it looked from our perspective - if you kept going, you'd know every resource, luxury, etc. in our lands while we would know nothing of the (for all we knew) vast lands
[18:53] < nbarclay > north of the chokepoint.
[18:54] < SirRalph > yes, it was an unfortunate situation.
[18:54] < Jon_Miller > right, that was a concern of ours
[18:55] < nbarclay > Shall we move on, then?
[18:55] < Jon_Miller > ok
[18:55] < Jon_Miller > I could speak more to the first issue, but we can come back to it later, possibly
[18:56] < Jon_Miller > I woudl like to pass that on to beta
[18:57] < Jon_Miller > but excepting one place I think that was what we were thinking
[18:58] < Jon_Miller > you still there?
[18:58] < nbarclay > Yes.
[18:58] < BetaHound > yes
[18:58] < Jon_Miller > ah, ok, so what are we doing now?
[18:58] < Jon_Miller > going on to the next issue or discussing land arrangments?
[18:59] < nbarclay > Whichever you prefer.
[18:59] < nbarclay > Did you get my e-mail yet?
[18:59] < Jon_Miller > yes, I ahve
[18:59] < Jon_Miller > have
[19:00] < zeit > perhaps clarifying #2 and #3, i think its more pressing to achieve trust, before both of us make more commitments
[19:00] < Jon_Miller > yes
[19:00] < Jon_Miller > for #2, that was us being slow in our diplomacy was it not?
[19:00] < SirRalph > yes
[19:00] < nbarclay > Yes. And the fact that your slowness kept interfering with our research.
[19:01] < Jon_Miller > oh, we actually thought that you that it did not slow your research (because of how fast your research was)
[19:02] < Jon_Miller > I think that there were a couple different reasons for the different times
[19:02] < nbarclay > The problem is that we reached decisinn points where we had to either pick a path we weren't sure of or risk starting down the wrong path and throwing away gold.
[19:02] < Jon_Miller > and I will have to dig through Vox forum for all of them
[19:03] < Jon_Miller > why don't we pick one example?
[19:03] < zeit > go ahead
[19:03] < nbarclay > The first time, we delayed research a turn, then started Bronze Working when Dissident sounded like you weren't interested, then delayed our research another turn, and then started on Alphabet still not 100% sure the two-stage deal was on.
[19:03] < Jon_Miller > could you pick it
[19:04] < Jon_Miller > ok, just a minute

[nbarclay]

Chat, continued

[19:04] < Jon_Miller > gotta dig back into vox history
[19:04] < Jon_Miller > I can tell you this though
[19:04] < Jon_Miller > we had a lot of threads like this brucehynes57@rogers.com
[19:04] < Jon_Miller > oops
[19:05] < Jon_Miller > I mean like this GS Tech Trade - What do we do?
[19:05] < nbarclay > Then when we got Alphabet, we were expecting an immediate trade of that for Iron Working, and when that didn't happen and we didn't hear anything confirming that it would happen, we put our research on hold for something like three turns.
[19:05] < Jon_Miller > and than someone would change their mind
[19:06] < Jon_Miller > we wouldn't have (probably) has IW by that time
[19:06] < Jon_Miller > we got IW earlier though because we got it from Lux
[19:06] < Jon_Miller > when we had 11 turns
[19:07] < Jon_Miller > so we have had IW, but you scared us again
[19:07] < Jon_Miller > with your tech speed, we were sure that you were trading with others
[19:07] < Jon_Miller > anyways, the earlier deal had a lot to do with minds changing back and forth
[19:08] < Jon_Miller > and worry about giving you military techs that you would use to attack us (We were afraid)
[19:08] < zeit > But still, a deal is a deal, and once you agree, you can't change your mind all of a sudden (in our perspective) without harming trust.
[19:08] < Jon_Miller > while the military techs you gave us (the wheel) would not be useful to us
[19:09] < Jon_Miller > oh, this was before the deal
[19:09] < Jon_Miller > I am talking about the inital bronzeworking - the wheel part of the deal
[19:09] < Jon_Miller > not the alphabet - IW part
[19:09] < zeit > sorry- you are right.
[19:10] < SirRalph > Jon, I have to go soon, but I would like to state my opinion about this deal
[19:10] < Jon_Miller > on the alphabet thing, yes we delayed a little, but we thought that you might be waiting for it to attack us
[19:11] < Jon_Miller > yes Sir Ralph?
[19:11] < SirRalph > First off, it would be insane for both of us to fight a war that early, while all others expand and develop
[19:11] < Jon_Miller > I agree
[19:11] < SirRalph > We did at no point consider to rush you
[19:11] < zeit > i concur
[19:11] < SirRalph > and we can understand your wish to be as safe as possible
[19:12] < Jon_Miller > but for us, we know that you ahve better land than us, so a war in the late middle ages would be in your favor deffinitely
[19:12] < SirRalph > but you also must grant us our right to have the same security
[19:12] < SirRalph > We were up to research towards Writing
[19:12] < Jon_Miller > hmm?
[19:12] < SirRalph > this is more beneficial for us, and you too, than the military stuff
[19:13] < Jon_Miller > if we are at peace
[19:13] < Jon_Miller > and stay at peace
[19:13] < SirRalph > but you must understand, that nobody wuold consider for long to be the neighbor of a civ, that can build immortals, without having an adequate tech
[19:14] < Jon_Miller > we understand you wish for ironworking
[19:14] < SirRalph > so we thought, we offer you a deal on the even (by beakers)
[19:14] < SirRalph > and we stopped our military research
[19:15] < Jon_Miller > (being even in beakers is not the way for trades with lux and ND and the rest of the outside)
[19:15] < zeit > WC for BW was in your favor- in terms of beakers, and alphabett for IW evens it
[19:15] < SirRalph > now it turns, that you are hesitating to give us the military tech we are considering to need for our defense
[19:15] < Jon_Miller > because we are afraid that you will attack us
[19:16] < nbarclay > Jon, the fact that WCs can't operate on unroaded mountains and jungles makes Iron Working a lot more important for our defense than you seem to realize.
[19:16] < SirRalph > so instead of researching Writing at a big speed, and helping both of us, we would be enforced to research IW uorselves, which would be idiotic, considering our situation
[19:16] < Jon_Miller > see, these are the reasons that in order for their to be peace, there must be an alliance
[19:17] < nbarclay > What would happen if we founded a city next to a mountain, you brought in immortals, and we had no way to attack them? We've been more than a little afraid of an attack from you too.
[19:17] < Jon_Miller > between the land that we would like, and the land yo uwould like, there are plains, which means that WCs are adequent defense
[19:17] < SirRalph > I cant speak for our entire team, but personally I would be in favor of an alliance
[19:17] < Jon_Miller > we need to have this alliance, because everyone outside of us are trading like crazy, and have a tech advantage
[19:18] < Jon_Miller > have you guys reached your turn yet?
[19:18] < SirRalph > Jon: We would like to trade too. Do you?
[19:18] < SirRalph > we have the turn
[19:18] < Jon_Miller > we have offered IW
[19:18] < SirRalph > it arrived 5 minutes ago
[19:18] < zeit > But this alliance initiative cannot be promoted by to honor the deal, it can only strengthen voices calling for war
[19:18] < SirRalph > We did not yet open it
[19:18] < Jon_Miller > yes, we would like to trade, that is why we want this alliance
[19:18] < SirRalph > brb
[19:18] < nbarclay > Sir Ralph, shall I go ahead and open the turn?
[19:18] < Jon_Miller > hmm, zeit?
[19:19] < Jon_Miller > can you repeat what you just said?
[19:19] < zeit > of course, i'll rephrase
[19:20] < Jon_Miller > ok
[19:20] < zeit > i mean- if we see that you can't be trusted with trade- what option do we have left besides conflict- even if we consdiered a partnership before?
[19:20] < Jon_Miller > As for the turn they had already have put alphabet up, so I went ahead and put up Iron Working. The turn will complete next turn, so I hope we are all agreed on this.
[19:20] < Jon_Miller > that is from our player
[19:20] < Jon_Miller > so IW should be up
[19:21] < Jon_Miller > we know that trust builds to an alliance
[19:21] < SirRalph > Jon: I have seen it, and I have no reason not to trust you anymore.
[19:21] < nbarclay > Zeit's concern is that if you break a trade when a better deal comes along, why should we trust you not to break an alliance with us if a better deal comes along?
[19:21] < SirRalph > nathan: read the message I wrote you
[19:21] < Jon_Miller > ah, it that was more our concern about not understanding how trading was working with human players
[19:21] < Jon_Miller > and us being worried about you attacking us once you got IW
[19:22] < zeit > I am very glad that this was sorted out, but now i'm sure you understand where feeling of mistrust came from
[19:22] < Jon_Miller > an alliance is somthing that we understand
[19:23] < Jon_Miller > and something where we won't be concerned about you attacking us
[19:23] < Jon_Miller > since it takes the fear down
[19:23] < Jon_Miller > I don't think there should be a problem
[19:24] < zeit > well, having you as trade partners sure lowers the value of war, doesn't it?
[19:24] < Jon_Miller > (the benifit of other trades was mostly just an excuse not to deal because of our fear of you)
[19:24] < Jon_Miller > we don't have WC yet
[19:24] < Jon_Miller > that is something that we should have soon
[19:24] < Jon_Miller > (or I don't think we have it yet, Beta still deals with them)
[19:25] < nbarclay > You said other teams don't look at tech costs when they conduct trades. How do they do business? More or less strictly by tier, or something else?
[19:25] < Jon_Miller > oh, did you mean something else zeit?
[19:26] < zeit > a wise saying
[19:26] < zeit > oops...
[19:26] < Jon_Miller > they lok at tech costs, tier was just a way in which we have tried to understand how it goes
[19:26] < Jon_Miller > they trade like the AI it seems, everyone has everything
[19:27] < zeit > I was reffering to the beaker costs- of those techs
[19:27] < Jon_Miller > therefore, if we give Lux a tier 2, they will pass it off to everyone else
[19:27] < Jon_Miller > and get a lot of tech (Worth far more than the beaker cost)
[19:27] < Jon_Miller > while if we get a teir 1, everyone already ahs it, so it is worth much less
[19:27] < zeit > Yes, so we must trade amongst ourselves, to keep up, fear and mistrust won't help
[19:28] < Jon_Miller > yes
[19:28] < Jon_Miller > because the teir one can't be traded for others
[19:28] < Jon_Miller > I don't think that they do a straight beaker trade though, because it would be hard to do all that trading that way
[19:29] < zeit > A wise saying says that fear breads mistrust, which breads conflict. I hope that even though no alliance was yet to be initiated between us, that some of your fear and our mistrust has dissipated
[19:29] < zeit > I don
[19:29] < zeit > 't know how others have been trading..
[19:29] < nbarclay > Right. It was something of a coincidence that there happened to be pairs of techs adding up to the same cost when we proposed our trade.
[19:29] < zeit > you are the ones connected to the outside world, which is another problem for us
[19:29] < Jon_Miller > yes, that does not happen often
[19:29] < Jon_Miller > right
[19:30] < Jon_Miller > we admit to be somewhat fearful that you and Lux will gain up on us
[19:30] < Jon_Miller > gang
[19:31] < nbarclay > We could probably afford to wait a bit for contact. Once foreign galleys start nosing around, the contact monopoly will disappear on its own.
[19:31] < Jon_Miller > yes, and by then trust shuold be such that we would probably ahve already given it to you
[19:31] < nbarclay > Except that if Lux gets Writing before we do, having contact with them would bring our cost down.
[19:31] < Jon_Miller > an alliance....
[19:32] < Jon_Miller > do you guys have more iron further south, or do you need the one to the south west?
[19:33] < zeit > we need IW to know that...
[19:33] < zeit >
[19:33] < Jon_Miller > you have it...
[19:33] < zeit > Only now
[19:33] < SirRalph > zeit, we have IW
[19:35] < Jon_Miller > maybe you could pass to nbarclay, when we discuss the city situation
[19:35] < SirRalph > Nathan gets the turn too
[19:35] < Jon_Miller > ah
[19:36] < nbarclay > I'll go ahead and load up my copy of the turn so I can have a look for myself.
[19:36] < Jon_Miller > so hopefully we can form an alliance?
[19:37] < Jon_Miller > of the variety that I and nbarclay discussed previously?
[19:38] < nbarclay > It looks like we have one iron in a place you haven't explored yet.
[19:38] < zeit > The details of any agreement must be discussed thoroughly, but i think now both of us understand that only by cooperating we have a chance of surviving
[19:38] < nbarclay > At the very least, we have a strong consensus in favor of the tech partnership you wanted.
[19:39] < nbarclay > A permanent, game-long alliance will require more discussion on our side; not all of the interested parties were able to make it to the chat.
[19:39] < zeit > which is as you said- what everyone practically does, so we must do as well in order to keep up
[19:39] < Jon_Miller > ok, so iron shold not be an issue
[19:39] < nbarclay > What do you think of my border proposal?
[19:40] < Jon_Miller > as I said, mostly we like it, but I would have to discuss with others
[19:40] < Jon_Miller > I think there is jsut one or two places
[19:40] < Jon_Miller > we can maybe, in this new era of peace, exchange map information
[19:41] < Jon_Miller > (my team does not like doing this outside of the game, but I think it is a bit before we can inside of the game, so we might be forced to)
[19:41] < nbarclay > Wtih four cities on North Estonia, you would have ten, although they'd be rather cramped. We'll end up with 13, only slightly less cramped, and it's hard to imagine us settling for less than that given our higher settler production capacity.
[19:42] < Jon_Miller > well, we were not thinking of taking a city
[19:42] < Jon_Miller > more like uncramping ours a little (that is the difference between your suggestion and our plans)
[19:42] < Jon_Miller > (not city, city site)
[19:43] < zeit > which means less cities- naturally
[19:43] < Jon_Miller > well, you have more cities less cramped right now
[19:43] < Jon_Miller > we have less cities more cramped
[19:44] < zeit > you mean after the agreement?
[19:44] < Jon_Miller > yes
[19:44] < Jon_Miller > umm, let me find the picture we had so I can sned to nbarclay
[19:45] < nbarclay > The reason I crammed so many cities there in my suggestion was so you could use as many coast and sea tiles as possible to generate wealth. It's one of my standard tactics on archipelago maps where I start without as much space as I'd like.
[19:45] < zeit > But you must understand, as said by Nathan, any more land for you would be unproportional to the ratio of our expansion rate
[19:46] < nbarclay > By the way, do you have a source of fresh water?
[19:46] < Jon_Miller > hmm, as you say
[19:46] < Jon_Miller > we have a lake to the north
[19:46] < nbarclay > I guess I should view that as good, now that we're allies.
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > we have many plains
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > int he southern part of our area
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > (The north continent)
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > basically we would like the city on the west cost to be down a bit
[19:47] < Jon_Miller > like a square
[19:49] < Jon_Miller > ok, I will jsut adjust your map nbarclay
[19:50] < nbarclay > You mean get the city adjacent to the fish?
[19:53] < Jon_Miller > yah, I think so
[19:53] < nbarclay > That would take two jungle tiles out of cultural contention (i.e. going to whichever city has the stronger culture) and make them clearly yours, and put a mountain tile and a coast tile into cultural contention.

[nbarclay]

Chat (3 of 5)

[19:53] < nbarclay > That's probably not a dealbreaker.
[19:53] < Jon_Miller > right
[19:54] < Jon_Miller > just look at the easter side, I was not doing well with the rest of it
[19:54] < Jon_Miller > I thought that we wanted the city on the isthmus one farther dowwn, but than I realised that we did ot
[19:56] < Jon_Miller > anyways I think that by the fish was what we wanted (I am not totally sure, Beta is sending me the map again (I seem to have lost it))
[19:56] < nbarclay > It looks like you have two green dots right next to each other by the fish. What's the deal with that?
[19:57] < Jon_Miller > a mistake
[19:57] < nbarclay > The one right below the red dot is correct?
[19:57] < Jon_Miller > wait let me get the polan from beta
[19:57] < Jon_Miller > plan
[19:58] < Jon_Miller > he sent it to jmiller@gac,edu
[19:59] < zeit > well, its been very nice chatting and negotiating with you Jon, i have to sleep (its 4 am, and tommorow is the election day here in israel!), good luck on the border deal
[19:59] < BetaHound > good luck with the elections
[19:59] < Jon_Miller > ok
[19:59] < Jon_Miller > bye
[20:00] < BetaHound > cheers
[20:00] < nbarclay > Bye.
[20:00] < Jon_Miller > sounds like your schedule is like mine
[20:00] < zeit > looks like it won't happen this time- beta, the left party are having a hard time...
[20:00] *** Quits: zeit (Quit: )
[20:01] < Jon_Miller > yah
[20:01] < nbarclay > I'm also very concerned about that green dot two tiles away from one of my blue ones. That's so close that one or the other won't even get its full 9-tile initial size.
[20:01] < Jon_Miller > nbarclay, the one right to the right of the fishes is where we want it
[20:01] < Jon_Miller > if that green dot is in the midle of nowhere, it might be a mistake
[20:02] < nbarclay > It's one tile east of the wheat.
[20:02] < nbarclay > ("6" using the keypad moves)
[20:02] < Jon_Miller > yes, that is a mistake
[20:03] < nbarclay > Good.
[20:03] < Jon_Miller > we want to have our south east city at a 1 from the wheat
[20:04] < nbarclay > Southeast or southwest?
[20:05] < Jon_Miller > 1 key speak
[20:05] < Jon_Miller > and I think we would like you to move your northernmost city 3 key speak
[20:06] < Jon_Miller > (the one that is on the jungle)
[20:06] < nbarclay > 1 from the wheat should be okay. We'll probably need a deal not to accept culture flips from each other packing cities so close, but otherwise, the difference from what I proposed is pretty minor.
[20:06] < nbarclay > (That is, assuming I can persuade the holdouts to go along with going ahead and defining borders now.)
[20:07] < Jon_Miller > how about the moving your other city down?
[20:08] < Jon_Miller > what we are mostly discussing is jungle
[20:08] < Jon_Miller > which dose little now, but is improtant for later
[20:08] < nbarclay > One straight down would put it on a grassland with shield, which is a definite no-no in my book. Also, it's already pretty crowded even where it is.
[20:08] < Jon_Miller > well, not straight down
[20:08] < Jon_Miller > a 3
[20:09] < nbarclay > 3 would put it on a tile adjacent to another city, which is a technical impossibility.
[20:09] < Jon_Miller > it would, I guess I don't have itopen
[20:10] < Jon_Miller > I would just like another jungle space and the like for the cities there
[20:10] < nbarclay > You and me both.
[20:10] < Jon_Miller > can yo umove it down 2?
[20:10] < Jon_Miller > well, you are getting 13 cities, and more sread out
[20:10] < Jon_Miller > we have 10 and more compact
[20:10] < SirRalph > I got to go, it's past 3am. Make a good alliance. Wish both sides success.
[20:10] < Jon_Miller > so I think that to make things better, it would be better to give us a couple of more squares
[20:11] < Jon_Miller > ok
[20:11] < notyoueithertoo > how much desert for you guys, jon?
[20:11] < Jon_Miller > bye Ralph
[20:11] < SirRalph > bye
[20:11] < Jon_Miller > no dersert, lots of plains
[20:11] < Jon_Miller > and jungle
[20:11] < notyoueithertoo > g'night sr
[20:11] *** Quits: SirRalph (Quit: bye)
[20:11] < BetaHound > yes - the small desert jon
[20:11] < notyoueithertoo > our 13 have a fair amount of desert.
[20:11] < Jon_Miller > wait some desert
[20:11] < BetaHound > one or two tiles - can't recall
[20:11] < notyoueithertoo > which i'm sure you know.
[20:12] < Jon_Miller > you are right that long term jungle is better than desert, not short term
[20:12] < Jon_Miller > we see 8 squares or so
[20:12] < notyoueithertoo > sure it is. it is one food. desert is 0.
[20:12] < Jon_Miller > deserte is production, and easier to change early on
[20:13] < notyoueithertoo > yes, but it is the long term that we are discussing. is it not?
[20:13] < Jon_Miller > irrigating desert is easier than irrigating jungle
[20:13] < Jon_Miller > yes, it is
[20:13] < Jon_Miller > but short term matters also
[20:13] < notyoueithertoo > therefore the jungle is far better, long term. especially with ind workers.
[20:13] < Jon_Miller > (not really short term
[20:14] < Jon_Miller > maybe we should exchange maps, that would help out?
[20:14] < notyoueithertoo > i shush now.
[20:14] < nbarclay > Irrigating desert doesn't allow sustainable growth, though. Basically, you can just work twice as many before you start growing if you irrigate.
[20:14] < Jon_Miller > mhm?
[20:14] < notyoueithertoo > *stop growing.
[20:15] < Jon_Miller > ok
[20:15] < nbarclay > STOP growing, I meant to say.
[20:15] < Jon_Miller > what is the deal with building on the desert?
[20:16] < nbarclay > Also, keep in mind that you're industrious, which makes clearing jungles a lot quicker than it would be otherwise.
[20:16] < Jon_Miller > are you not indutrious?
[20:16] < Jon_Miller > I thought you wer indutrious/reliious
[20:17] < nbarclay > The thing about desert is that until railroads, even with irrigation, each laborer consumes one more food than he produces. So without food bonuses, a city can only work two desert tiles before it runs out of food to grow any farther.
[20:17] < Jon_Miller > and you have a lot of luxuries also
[20:17] < Jon_Miller > we only hav eth eone
[20:18] < nbarclay > Yes, we're religous/industrious. I wasn't trying to say you could use jungle better than we can, just that you can use it better than a non-industrious civ could.
[20:18] < Jon_Miller > how does it matter, you are the other party in this
[20:18] < nbarclay > Look at it this way, if jungle is so worthless, why are you making a fuss about it?
[20:18] < Jon_Miller > and there is a big difference between 13 and 10 cities
[20:18] < Jon_Miller > jungle is not worthless, it just matters not a lot
[20:19] < Jon_Miller > how about this
[20:19] < nbarclay > Agreed about 10 cities vs. 13. But if we went for a straight REXing contest with no backfilling, do you think you could do better?
[20:19] < Jon_Miller > we will have 2 cities down nearer you in 7 tunrs or so
[20:20] < Jon_Miller > (I think Beta?)
[20:20] < BetaHound > yup - we would do OK.
[20:20] < Jon_Miller > while you do better, extra cities would nto do as good because of the desert
[20:20] < Jon_Miller > so I think we could get it down a little farther on the east
[20:21] < Jon_Miller > enough that we might be able to squeese one more sity in arround the isthmus
[20:21] < Jon_Miller > 11 adn 13 sounds much better
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > how about this
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > move the city on the far east down one
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > move the city on the center to the 3 position
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > you lose 2 jungle
[20:22] < Jon_Miller > we get slightly better cities, or one more if we squeeze it
[20:23] < Jon_Miller > (and by sqeeze I mean stick it somewhere where it would only have a couple of land places to use
[20:23] < Jon_Miller > not the 9 thing
[20:23] < Jon_Miller > (like 2 of are cities would be a square appart)
[20:24] < Jon_Miller > hmm, still there/
[20:24] < Jon_Miller > ?
[20:25] < nbarclay > Looking at the map.
[20:25] < BetaHound > yes
[20:25] < Jon_Miller > ok
[20:26] < BetaHound > Jon - one thing - I know what they have said about North Estonia - but we only figured 3 cities up there. 4 will be verrry tight.
[20:26] < Jon_Miller > I think by my suggestion you would lose a jungle or two
[20:26] < Jon_Miller > are we counting the ithmus as northern or southern?
[20:27] < BetaHound > ah - good point - it would be #4.
[20:27] < nbarclay > My count of ten assumes four besides the isthmus.
[20:27] < BetaHound > eeek!!!
[20:28] < Jon_Miller > I think that we were going to build 4 up there, but one would not have much land (like a few squares)
[20:28] < Jon_Miller > it would be just to make full use
[20:28] < BetaHound > Let me revist a gridded screen shot - and now that re-count the red dots - you are right. (commerce grad - sigh)
[20:29] < Jon_Miller > or at least I thought we were going to put one up the west coast to get that hill and those two plains
[20:29] < BetaHound > hang tight
[20:30] < Jon_Miller > mayeb you should send me the screenshot with our cities to the north
[20:30] < nbarclay > I'll admit I have to fly blind in thinking about what ought to be able to fit up there, but if there are 30 tiles up there, and four cities would each use six land and six coast/sea besides the city tile itself, that would leave a couple tiles on
[20:30] < nbarclay > North Estonia proper for the isthmus city to work.
[20:31] < Jon_Miller > I guess it is placement more than anything
[20:31] < Jon_Miller > our capitol is placed right in the niddle
[20:31] < Jon_Miller > so that nothing can be placed on the sides (unless it is only one scwuare away)
[20:31] < Jon_Miller > or above
[20:31] < nbarclay > That does make things more awkward.
[20:32] < Jon_Miller > so the capitol has moe of its share, and the rest has less
[20:32] < notyoueithertoo > i am out. see you all later.
[20:32] < Jon_Miller > have
[20:32] < Jon_Miller > ok, see yo later notyou either
[20:32] < BetaHound > bye nye
[20:32] < nbarclay > Still, if you think in terms of crowding the capital so it won't grow past 12 (which we're pretty much doing with ours), it might be doable.
[20:32] *** notyoueithertoo has left #voxcontroli
[20:32] < Jon_Miller > down to asleep
[20:32] < Jon_Miller > and nbarclay
[20:33] < Jon_Miller > for GS
[20:33] < Jon_Miller > and Jon
[20:33] < Jon_Miller > and Beta
[20:33] < Jon_Miller > for Vox
[20:33] < BetaHound > OK - in the north..
[20:33] < Jon_Miller > send me an email of where the cities were planned to be
[20:34] < BetaHound > it only has three on it - sending.
[20:34] < Jon_Miller > ok
[20:35] < Jon_Miller > I am sure we can fit a 4th there, it just would not be very pretty
[20:35] < Jon_Miller > would only have a couple of squares
[20:36] < BetaHound > sent
[20:37] < BetaHound > no - not pretty - that would three citoes all within two tiles of the capitol
[20:38] < BetaHound > the plains with the desert would be shared by miller town and the isthmus city
[20:38] < asleepathewheel > ah, I am here, but am watching (reading homework too)
[20:38] < Jon_Miller > ok
[20:38] < Jon_Miller > beta, I still haven't received the email, make sure you have the right addy
[20:38] < asleepathewheel > i am just observing
[20:40] < BetaHound > yup = shows it sent to jmiller3atgacdotedu at 9:36
[20:40] < nbarclay > By "within two tiles," are you talking about one or two tiles actually in between the cities?
[20:40] < Jon_Miller > yes
[20:40] < BetaHound > one ...
[20:40] < Jon_Miller > in at least once case, I ahve not seen the email yet
[20:41] < Jon_Miller > got email
[20:42] < Jon_Miller > yes, three cities would be 1 away from eachother
[20:43] < BetaHound > We could go for the site lower down on the west side, but that would crowd the isthmus city - and move every thing lese down even more.
[20:43] < BetaHound > And it would be a slug.
[20:43] < BetaHound > It will be mediocre as it is.
[20:44] < BetaHound > OK - back over to you jon.
[20:45] < Jon_Miller > our second city is already one away from the capitol
[20:45] < Jon_Miller > so we would rather not continue smaching them all inlike that
[20:45] < Jon_Miller > I think on retrospect, that maybe the second city we should have placed elsewhere
[20:45] < BetaHound > with a one tile lake for irrig., not much choice.
[20:46] < BetaHound > it was the best choice, and still is
[20:46] < nbarclay > I understand the sentiment of not wanting to have them all so tight perfectly.
[20:46] < Jon_Miller > ok
[20:46] < Jon_Miller > our two cities now, are right in the middle of teh landmast, and don't take any water
[20:47] < Jon_Miller > and don't really allow much for cities on the side
[20:47] < nbarclay > The key to my "cramped quarters" strategy is that once harbors become available and I'm out of Despotism, coast squares are the best gold producers in the game (not counting stuff with bonuses), and sea is as good as anything else for generating gold.

[nbarclay]

Chat (4 of 5)

[20:47] < nbarclay > And harbors let coastal cities grow whether they have food on land or not.
[20:48] < Jon_Miller > yah, that is why I am thinking that we should have considered that and built elsewhere, but it still doesn't change that right now, we don't have any coast sities to really build
[20:48] < Jon_Miller > (well, not a 4th anyway)
[20:48] < nbarclay > So on one hand, super-tight spacing is ugly and costs land tiles, but on the other, if it lets me use much extra coast and sea, it can bring in a lot of extra gold.
[20:48] < Jon_Miller > (without it really cramping things up)
[20:49] < Jon_Miller > our land is 3 to 4 wide
[20:49] < Jon_Miller > and our cities are placed right in the middle of it
[20:49] < BetaHound > you're right. No where is it 5 wide.
[20:49] < nbarclay > That definitely makes the situation more awkward than I'd hoped for when I drew up my propsal.
[20:51] < Jon_Miller > as I said, we will probably place a 4th city up there (just because I personally am not into losing even a square)
[20:51] < nbarclay > If we would accept your proposals for moving the two eastern cities (the coastal one 2 and the other one 3, on the keypad), can you figure out where your cities would end up?
[20:52] < Jon_Miller > but most likely it would not be anything until much later (if ever)
[20:52] < Jon_Miller > yes we could
[20:52] < Jon_Miller > what we discussed about the one on the west coast
[20:53] < Jon_Miller > and than the one in the center down one
[20:53] < Jon_Miller > (down a 2 position)
[20:53] < nbarclay > I've already agreed that as far as I'm concerned, the change on the west coast (by the fish) seems reasonable.
[20:54] < Jon_Miller > move the northeast one to 7
[20:54] < nbarclay > The other change is a lot more complicated because it involves not just questions of which tiles would definitely be gained or lost but also which tiles would be in cultural contention.
[20:54] < Jon_Miller > and also add in one more city
[20:55] < Jon_Miller > which would really cramp things, but be better
[20:55] *** notyoueither (notyoueith@h24-86-76-127.ed.shawcable.net) has joined #voxcontroli
[20:55] < Jon_Miller > hello nye
[20:55] < BetaHound > hello
[20:55] < notyoueither > hello.
[20:55] < notyoueither > still going i see.
[20:56] < nbarclay > Yes. We're having something of a border dispute, you might say.
[20:56] < nbarclay > Fortunately, just on paper.
[20:56] < BetaHound > diplomacy is a meal best eaten slowly ....
[20:56] < Jon_Miller > yes, a much better way to do so
[20:56] < nbarclay > Much better a clash of pens than a clash of swords.
[20:56] < BetaHound > true!!
[20:56] < Jon_Miller > oh, I have to be in class at 9:30 tomorrow, I have been waking up at 2!
[20:57] < Jon_Miller > because of the movement of the center city to the 3 position
[20:58] < Jon_Miller > you would not lose any land space in the east
[20:58] < Jon_Miller > only a coast space
[20:58] < notyoueither > i thought there might be difficulties in what jon was suggesting.
[20:58] < notyoueither > i am not looking at maps though.
[20:59] < nbarclay > Can you give me a location in terms of keypad directions relative to one of the dots for the additional city?
[20:59] < Jon_Miller > oh, to the city that I want to move down
[20:59] < Jon_Miller > we would be adding a city to the 7 position
[21:00] < Jon_Miller > so ti will be 1 away from two cities
[21:00] < Jon_Miller > but we like that better than only having 10 cities
[21:00] < nbarclay > To the 7 position from what?
[21:00] < Jon_Miller > (And a number of them 1 awafrom other cities)
[21:00] < Jon_Miller > from the northern city in the jungle
[21:01] < Jon_Miller > which I want to move to the 2 position
[21:01] < Jon_Miller > maybe I shuod redraw
[21:01] < nbarclay > That would probably be useful.
[21:02] < BetaHound > Looks like it should be 8 from the blue dot - which puts it in the plains square and which will be a drag.
[21:02] < BetaHound > I would suggest we need to confirm on a gridded screenshot of the area to make sure there is no misunderstanding.
[21:03] < Jon_Miller > ok
[21:04] < Jon_Miller > yah, a grid might be nice
[21:05] < Jon_Miller > could someone with the save cook one up for me?
[21:05] < Jon_Miller > NYE
[21:05] < Jon_Miller > you should have gone ot he GW-Roleplay discussion
[21:05] < notyoueither > i did. then i left.
[21:06] < BetaHound > I have an old one - one minute.
[21:06] < Jon_Miller > ok
[21:06] < Jon_Miller > ok
[21:06] < Jon_Miller > see, that makes everyone else on the other continent I tihnk
[21:06] < Jon_Miller > because GoW was the only other one we thought might not be there
[21:06] < notyoueither > ???
[21:07] < Jon_Miller > (wait, I am not sure wbout legoland either)
[21:07] < nbarclay > You have confirmation that Lego is on the same continent with the others?
[21:07] < Jon_Miller > I am not sure, beta?
[21:07] < nbarclay > Last I knew, we weren't sure about Lego.
[21:07] < Jon_Miller > GoW and lego were the ones that we were not sure about
[21:07] < Jon_Miller > but I thought we had proof of lego
[21:07] < Jon_Miller > and this seems to suggest GoW is ther aslo
[21:08] < Jon_Miller > (we thought both of them were on the other cont with eth others)
[21:08] < Jon_Miller > but did not ahve proof
[21:08] < Jon_Miller > I could go up
[21:08] < Jon_Miller > look it up
[21:08] < Jon_Miller > one of the discussions we saw made us think lego was with the others
[21:09] < Jon_Miller > (have you all noticed how much you can learn by chatting with people??)
[21:10] < nbarclay > I get the impression that you folks do more of that than we do.
[21:10] < BetaHound > jon - sent.
[21:10] < Jon_Miller > ok
[21:10] < Jon_Miller > I tink roleplay chats more than we do
[21:10] < nbarclay > I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.
[21:11] < nbarclay > Something about the name "roleplay" fits that perfectly.
[21:11] < Jon_Miller > ha ha ha
[21:12] < nbarclay > As for myself, just keeping up with discussions within the GS group, not to mention my occasional moonlighting as a special envoy (just to Vox, so far at least), consumes enough of my time.
[21:13] < Jon_Miller > I ahve been on a lot recently
[21:13] < Jon_Miller > because classes have been out
[21:13] < Jon_Miller > and none of my freinds were here in maryland
[21:14] < Jon_Miller > but my freinds (And aquitances who I would like to be freinds) have returned
[21:14] < Jon_Miller > and classes start tomorrow
[21:15] < Jon_Miller > so I will be spending less time hree
[21:15] < Jon_Miller > (I hope)
[21:17] < Jon_Miller > sorry, just a bit more
[21:17] < nbarclay > Unfortunately, these games can have stuff come up at times that aren't entirely convenient.
[21:18] < Jon_Miller > hopefully this isn't oo bad for you?
[21:18] < Jon_Miller > but yes, I know
[21:18] < nbarclay > Let's just say I've been a lot busier with this than I'd planned to the last few days.
[21:19] < nbarclay > But at least we seem to be getting a lot accomplished.
[21:20] < nbarclay > And with a deal to start giving each other whatever techs we get, tech trade negotiations will be a lot easier.
[21:20] < BetaHound > Now why doesn't LUx see that???
[21:21] < nbarclay > LOL
[21:21] < BetaHound > They call it 'socialistic'....
[21:21] < BetaHound > And calc even called in 'communistic' once as well.
[21:21] < nbarclay > "Socialistic" is when someone makes you do it whether you want to or not.
[21:22] < nbarclay > When you do it voluntarily, "partnership" is a much better word.
[21:22] < asleepathewheel > sorry I haven't been more attentive, i've been unfortunately occupied with other things, I just wanted to comment that this has gone quite nicely tonight, and I appreciate the work and time Nathan and Jon have put into resolving our differences
[21:22] < BetaHound > Hey - watch it - I'm Canadian eh.
[21:22] < BetaHound > yes - I concur.
[21:23] < nbarclay > Why the "I'm Canadian" bit?
[21:23] < BetaHound > Yes - nb - partnership is a better word for it.
[21:24] < BetaHound > brb
[21:25] < Jon_Miller > we are all canadians here
[21:25] < asleepathewheel > excuse me while I ask a probably already answered question
[21:25] < Jon_Miller > sorry, I have been playing with photo editing software
[21:26] < asleepathewheel > does lux and the others know that GS is the civ that shares your continent?
[21:27] < Jon_Miller > yes
[21:27] < asleepathewheel > oh, ok.
[21:29] < Jon_Miller > sorry, wait a bit longer
[21:29] < Jon_Miller > I sent it to the wroong address apparently (for beta)
[21:29] < Jon_Miller > and hopefully nbarclay, we will not need to do this again for a LONG while
[21:30] < asleepathewheel > thankyou for letting me sit in on this conversation, it was quite fascinating. That said, it is time for me to leave
[21:30] < asleepathewheel > thanks
[21:30] < notyoueither > cya atw
[21:30] < asleepathewheel > bye
[21:30] *** Quits: asleepathewheel (Quit: )
[21:30] < Jon_Miller > bye
[21:31] < nbarclay > Jon, it looks like you moved the fish/wheat city in connection with moving our cities?
[21:32] < Jon_Miller > yah, I thought we had discussed that a while ago?
[21:32] < Jon_Miller > or did we miscommunicate
[21:33] < nbarclay > I thought the plan was for you to have it 2 from where my red dot was.
[21:33] < Jon_Miller > ok, I will send it to you
[21:33] < Jon_Miller > it is two??
[21:34] < Jon_Miller > a 2 and a 3
[21:34] < Jon_Miller > oh, wait 2 versus 2
[21:34] < nbarclay > I was talking keypad, and you were talking distance?
[21:35] < Jon_Miller > so now I see why you were mnore concerned about the middle
[21:35] < Jon_Miller > yes there was some of that
[21:35] < Jon_Miller > I first said a 2 keypad
[21:35] < Jon_Miller > thanI asked for a 2 distance
[21:35] < Jon_Miller > but ehre, check out the latest
[21:36] < Jon_Miller > got it?
[21:38] < nbarclay > Got it.
[21:38] < Jon_Miller > ok, so we have soemtihngs to talk about
[21:38] < nbarclay > This is starting to get about as ugly as the situation around your capital.
[21:38] < Jon_Miller > I thought we were just talking about the middle city
[21:38] < Jon_Miller > but we can talk about the lower one also
[21:39] < Jon_Miller > yes, I expect it will all be ugly for us, but I would like to have the 11th ugly city
[21:39] < Jon_Miller > rather than 10 nicer ones
[21:41] < nbarclay > The tricky part from my perspective is that we have another city site (that can't be moved easily) 2-2 from one of the revised locations for our cities and 1-1 from the other.
[21:42] < Jon_Miller > 1-1??
[21:42] < Jon_Miller > 2-2??
[21:42] < BetaHound > keypad and distance
[21:42] < nbarclay > On the keypad.
[21:42] < Jon_Miller > hmm, so it would give you a weaker city
[21:43] < nbarclay > If a unit starts at one site, the moves he would make to get to the other.
[21:44] < Jon_Miller > ok, I know where I could put another blud dot wth\
[21:44] < Jon_Miller > but there is (or could be) quit a bit of room above your northernmost city
[21:44] < nbarclay > That means the inland one gets stuck with only a handful of tiles that aren't already designated for another city.
[21:45] < BetaHound > nathan - can I ask a question?
[21:45] < nbarclay > Sure.
[21:45] < Jon_Miller > so if the one that is not marked can take some of the land arround the top moved one
[21:45] < Jon_Miller > we can hav our dot jsut be where it is at
[21:46] < Jon_Miller > and you build that city earleir
[21:46] < Jon_Miller > remember, you will have the advantage of culture, since you are religious
[21:46] < Jon_Miller > that is soemthing we have not been considering
[21:47] < Jon_Miller > this ahas been some long bargaining
[21:47] < BetaHound > FRom what I can see - the continet very much widens out the further south one gets. That results in both more landmass, and more coastal squares. We are being very much squeezed from waht we originally intended.
[21:49] < nbarclay > I'm working with two constraints here. On one hand, you need enough land to build a civ worth playing. On the other hand, we need enough land that our team won't think it's better just to grab the whole thing when the time is right.
[21:49] < Jon_Miller > yah, but I think that is true for both of us
[21:49] < nbarclay > I hate to be so blunt, but that's the way it is.
[21:49] < Jon_Miller > yes, that is an important ballance
[21:49] < Jon_Miller > perhaps mapmaking would help it
[21:50] < Jon_Miller > so how about all our dotted positions
[21:50] < Jon_Miller > because of your temples, you shold have the advantage on us with vulture
[21:50] < BetaHound > freudian slip
[21:50] < Jon_Miller > and so will have some of the land that is not right beside the two of ours cities
[21:52] < Jon_Miller > as far as I can see you lose maybe 3 squares of jung
[21:52] < Jon_Miller > le
[21:53] < Jon_Miller > the mountain with the iron that s between the two of us will go to you
[21:53] < Jon_Miller > as will the position 6 of it

[nbarclay]

Chat (5 of 5)

[21:53] < nbarclay > Are you talking with the current placement on the map, or with the wheat/fish city moved back next to where my red dot was?
[21:54] < Jon_Miller > curent
[21:54] < Jon_Miller > and than you would get all squares 9 from that mountain
[21:55] < Jon_Miller > wait you would lose 4 jungles and a plains
[21:55] < Jon_Miller > maybe that is too much
[21:56] < Jon_Miller > why do you tihnk that moving the city near the fish back by a 7?
[21:56] < Jon_Miller > what woudl that add to you?
[21:57] < Jon_Miller > I think another jungle??/
[21:57] < Jon_Miller > so you would lose 3 jungle and one plains
[21:57] < Jon_Miller > is that better?
[21:58] < Jon_Miller > (considering all the dotted positions exluding the city near the fish)
[21:58] < nbarclay > On the map you sent, even assuming we have superior culture, the inland city would only have one jungle, one forest, one grassland, and three mountains not within the radius of another city.
[21:59] < Jon_Miller > ok, if we moved the fish city it would take another jungle
[21:59] < nbarclay > Moving the wheat/fish city back would help (assuming we can maintian superior culture); at least the city could get to size 6, maybe eventually 8 with enough irrigation.
[21:59] < Jon_Miller > so 2-j, 1-f, 1-g, 3-m
[22:00] < nbarclay > so 2-j, 1-f, 1-g, 3-m???
[22:01] < Jon_Miller > 6+1+3+3
[22:01] < Jon_Miller > hmm?
[22:02] < nbarclay > Actually we could get three jungle with sufficient culture. We'd get the one 3-3 and the one 3-6 from your city.
[22:03] < Jon_Miller > yah, I thought of both of those
[22:03] < Jon_Miller > but just added one to what you said
[22:03] < Jon_Miller > so 3-j, 1-f, 1-g, 3-m
[22:03] < Jon_Miller > plus the city site
[22:03] < Jon_Miller > seems good to me
[22:04] < BetaHound > so we are talking the spot bewteen the fish and the wheat - or south of it.
[22:05] < Jon_Miller > between
[22:05] < Jon_Miller > it would make there city much nicer
[22:05] < Jon_Miller > (give them two jungle)
[22:06] < BetaHound > So - is it decided then?
[22:07] < nbarclay > I'll take it back to my team. I can't say for sure whether they'll go for it or not.
[22:07] < Jon_Miller > ok, I will do likewise
[22:08] < nbarclay > On one hand, there's been a fairly strong desire for more than just three tiles of the jungle.
[22:08] < BetaHound > very true
[22:08] < nbarclay > On the other, though, it sounds like your situation at home is maybe a bit more cramped than we'd factored into our thinking. Certainly, you can't get as good a city placement.
[22:09] < Jon_Miller > we would like mapmaking and see if there are any other islands about
[22:09] < Jon_Miller > particularly since eveyone else seems to be on one continent
[22:09] < nbarclay > There is one other thing about your starting position that gives you a potential long-term advantage, though.
[22:10] < Jon_Miller > which is!!!
[22:10] < Jon_Miller > ??
[22:10] < nbarclay > Lux is the closest civ on the other continent to this continent, and if you would conquer part or all of Lux, at least part of it would fall within range for your capital to make it productive.
[22:11] < BetaHound > Wait till we tell em that!!!
[22:11] < nbarclay > We don't have anything that we could conquer and make productive without a palace or FP move.
[22:11] < Jon_Miller > except us
[22:11] < BetaHound > ;(
[22:11] < Jon_Miller > perhaps if you joined a military alliance withus
[22:11] < Jon_Miller > against Lux
[22:11] < Jon_Miller > we would let you have more land
[22:11] < Jon_Miller > just a though
[22:12] < Jon_Miller > on my part, don't know what the rest of my country feels
[22:12] < Jon_Miller > but WCs+ Immortals
[22:12] < Jon_Miller > at this stage of the game
[22:12] < Jon_Miller > very potent
[22:13] < Jon_Miller > we woudl need mapmaking tohugh
[22:13] < nbarclay > Actually, I've been thinking about the possibility of a joint operation in that area to get a foothold on the other continent shortly after we get Republic. I haven't discussed it with GS yet, though.
[22:13] < Jon_Miller > are capitol is on the very end of teh continet
[22:14] < Jon_Miller > so yah, a lot of the other continent is closer to us than the jungle areas
[22:14] < BetaHound > would work
[22:14] < nbarclay > Which puts it right next to some of Lux's lands.
[22:14] < BetaHound > yup - and a very short galley trip away.
[22:15] < BetaHound > speaking of trip...
[22:15] < BetaHound >
[22:15] < Jon_Miller > did oyu ever talk to him?
[22:15] < BetaHound > Nope - he never showed.
[22:15] < BetaHound > Lata'
[22:15] < Jon_Miller > byew
[22:16] < BetaHound > No - I was quoting trip.
[22:16] < BetaHound > And his signature
[22:16] < Jon_Miller > ah
[22:16] < Jon_Miller > and Lux only has 2 cities
[22:17] < BetaHound > BUT - I am tried - my wife seems a bit peeved - and it is time for sleep.
[22:17] < BetaHound > Really - only two?
[22:17] < Jon_Miller > yah, it is late
[22:17] < Jon_Miller > I thoguht so, maybe that was a while ago
[22:17] < BetaHound > Nathan - nye - jon - a pleasure.
[22:17] < nbarclay > Bye
[22:17] < Jon_Miller > yes
[22:17] < Jon_Miller > bye
[22:18] < BetaHound > Good night one and all, and cheers to the new spirit of co-operation we have founded.
[22:18] < Jon_Miller > cheers
[22:18] < Jon_Miller > :beer:
[22:18] < BetaHound > bye
[22:18] *** Quits: BetaHound (Quit: )
[22:19] < Jon_Miller > ok
[22:19] < Jon_Miller > so we present what we have?
[22:19] < Jon_Miller > and put up discussion for a war with lux?
[22:20] < Jon_Miller > with cities of Vox an exchange for GS's help?
[22:21] < Jon_Miller > either of you still here?
[22:22] < nbarclay > From GS's perspective, I would tend to view an attack on lux as merely a first step toward further conquests on that continent. (Note, what I'm saying now is personal viewpoints.)
[22:22] < Jon_Miller > well, yes
[22:23] < Jon_Miller > but I am sure that we could redistribute Cities
[22:23] < nbarclay > Some city exchanges giving you some of our share of the conquered Lux territory and us some extra jungle cities might be an interesting possibility, though.
[22:23] < Jon_Miller > so that corruption is a minimum
[22:24] < notyoueither > well this has gone in unexpected directions...
[22:24] < Jon_Miller > in what way NYE?
[22:25] < notyoueither > we started to talk about tech trading. we are up to dividing the continent.
[22:25] < nbarclay > And dividing beyond our own continent.
[22:25] < notyoueither > no worrioes. there will be war. there would be very large advantages to those wars being off our shared land.
[22:25] < Jon_Miller > yes
[22:26] < Jon_Miller > but this was intended
[22:26] < Jon_Miller > on my part at least
[22:26] < Jon_Miller > to be more than about tech trading, but to open up further discussion of an alliance
[22:26] < Jon_Miller > and now that the tech trading ahs appeared to go through
[22:27] < Jon_Miller > I feel like the alliance will follow



[22:35] < Jon_Miller > no, we got our fear of the rush from Beta looking up strategy threads
[22:35] < Jon_Miller > written by members of your team
[22:35] < Jon_Miller > all telling about the early rush
[22:35] < notyoueither > i knew both eli and dis were in this game, but the rush was the right thing for me to do. so i did it.
[22:35] < nbarclay > Rushes can work when civs start close, but the farther apart they are, the less practical they get.
[22:35] < notyoueither > eli is having fun now.
[22:36] < Jon_Miller > yah, and because of the jungle, your WCs can't rush
[22:36] < Jon_Miller > I see that now
[22:36] < notyoueither > i think he got the pyramids, great lighthouse, oracle and at least one other ancient wonder.
[22:36] < Jon_Miller > Eli has been less active in our game recently
[22:36] < Jon_Miller > maybe he is having too much fun in that game
[22:36] < nbarclay > (And personally, even in SP, I tend to regard early warfare as a bit costly in terms of ability to keep up with other teams. Then again, I like doing my own research rather than relying on extortion - which wouldn't necessarily work well in MP anyhow.)
[22:37] < Jon_Miller > it works sometimes though
[22:37] < notyoueither > that is true nathan.
[22:37] < Jon_Miller > I am playing a SP game right now, and I took over the roamns before they built legions
[22:37] < Jon_Miller > it was nice
[22:37] < notyoueither > the farhter apart, and the harder the terrain, the less they work.
[22:38] < Jon_Miller > but I didn;t really do a rush, just an early war
[22:38] < nbarclay > The catch to extortion in MP is that once players get damaged beyond a certian point, they're likely to go down fighting rather than give away their techs just to be left with a small area not worth playing.
[22:38] < Jon_Miller > our capitols are acutally probably pretty far apprat
[22:39] < notyoueither > i think so, jon. that is a blessing.
[22:39] < Jon_Miller > it is just the northern land mass does not give much choice in areas to trave in
[22:39] < nbarclay > I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 20 tiles between capitals.
[22:39] < Jon_Miller > so it makes it seem closer (to us at least)
[22:40] < Jon_Miller > yah, there are a lot of things huamsn will and won't do, that computer players woulds
[22:40] < notyoueither > the idea of a long term alliance and joint adventures overseas is intriguing.
[22:40] < nbarclay > You're probably already thinking in terms of "close to the center of our eventual empire" rather than "close to our capital".
[22:40] < Jon_Miller > well yah (to both)
[22:41] < nbarclay > We're what, the only two teams in the game with powerful ancient UUs? Or am I forgetting someone? (Lego has an ancient UU, but it's oriented more toward defense.)
[22:41] < Jon_Miller > but going across the sea for some of our land seems interesting
[22:41] < notyoueither > i was in a 30 hour mp game like that.
[22:41] < Jon_Miller > carthage
[22:41] < Jon_Miller > 30 hour, wow
[22:41] < notyoueither > there were 3 players.
[22:41] < Jon_Miller > I ahven't really had any good ones, but I ahve not tried sicne Dec
[22:42] < notyoueither > me (#3) and the #2 agreed to an alliance.
[22:42] < notyoueither > whoever could win, would win supported by the other.
[22:42] < notyoueither > the outcome was left open for either of us to win.
[22:42] < Jon_Miller > so neithe conquest?
[22:42] < Jon_Miller > or is there an alliance conquest?
[22:42] < notyoueither > in the end, it fell to me to get into a nuclear exchange with number 1 so that #2 could build the ss.
[22:43] < Jon_Miller > that is really cool
[22:43] < Jon_Miller > late game and all
[22:43] < nbarclay > How did one civ survive against two to get into the modern era?
[22:43] < notyoueither > if i had built the un, #2 would have voted for me, and i would have won.
[22:43] < Jon_Miller > I have freinds with Civ3 PtW arround ehre, we plan on getting together
[22:43] < notyoueither > it was queer. none of us were in good position to attack the other. except #2 and I.

[nbarclay]

On Thursday, Jan. 30, Jon asked me how things were going, and I sent him the following. (Sorry about not posting it more promptly.)

About all I've been able to accomplish with the last version I sent was to
make the one we hammered out in chat look better by comparison. Sorry I
couldn't do better for you. There's still a faction that would rather just
REX it out instead of predefining borders, though, so the matter is still
under discussion. (But I think the faction that prefers the stability
predefined borders would bring - if the borders are in a location acceptable
to us - is larger at present.)

[nbarclay]

Message to Vox indicating that we've ratified a modified version of the proposed border treaty:

Greetings Jon and People of Vox Controli:

After extensive discussion and debate (and a bit of scrambling to adjust to
Dissidentville's location), Gathering Storm has come to a strong consensus
ratifying the enclosed border treaty proposal. (I had to adjust one of our
city locations to make it viable with Dissidentville where it is, and
another because one of our generals wanted to make absolutely certain that
cultural disparities could not cost us control of an iron source.) If this
would be acceptable to you, we can have the stability that comes with
predefined borders so that both our nations can focus squarely on building
up our economies in our nations' cores. That will make both our economies
much stronger, both for research and for production, than if we waste early
cities on a land grab in high-corruption areas. It will also help us lay a
stronger and more stable groundwork for possible (and I like to think highly
probable) future partnership in other areas.

By the way, we're sorry if Hack's recent movement caused you any concern.
Your settler happened to come south at a time when Grog was away from his
normal post hunting barbarians, which raised a theoretical possibility that
other units could have come with the settler. Hack's new position ensures
that he can let us know in the unlikely event that units that accompanied
the settler might move farther south.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[nbarclay]

"Quick note" back from Jon:

quick note

we have been playing as if it was ratified

so since it has been ratified on both sides it is good, BTW, we are about to
meet another nation

[nbarclay]

New PM from Dissident:

Greetings esteemed Chief Economist of Gathering Storm. Hope this camel arrives safely. I/we have not heard much from your great nation lately. I am sorry I missed out on the fireside chat that occured last week (or was it the previous week). I feel that much was discussed I don't know about. And our tribal founder Jon Miller has been scarce lately. I was wondering what sort of tech. trade arrangements are possible. We are preparing to research wild and new areas of study. And would like to see what we could arrange. No sense duplicating our research efforts. I look forward to future trade agreements. I'm sure they can go smoother than the last now that peace seems to be our common goal. Remember we can combine research to improve both of our nations over the others. Rumour has it there is much bickering on the much larger continent- I cannot confirm this though. This could be our opportunity for both of our nations to prosper.

[nbarclay]

Jon Miller just sent me a string of e-mails:

What are you researching right now?

We are still on mysticism (Getting close to completion).

I will send another emial in the near future (I basically haven't been
involved this last week).

umm, just to make it clear

we have finished learning what we were (mysticism) and are on to something
else

we would like to combine research efforts with you (That was a big part of
the deal)

as well as send mysticism to you

I ithnk what we can learn right now is polytheism or math

we will be gifting you WC and mysticism

as part of the trade deal

[nbarclay]

And now a two-parter from BetaHound clarifying the situation:

Lots of Stuff- Part1
nbarclay and Sir Ralph of Gathering Storm.

Greetings Gentlemen.

I have been pulled back from the Voxian Economic Council to talk to you about a number of things. I know that Dissident had tried to contact you, as well as Jon Miller, but many of us are busy with other RL activities, and a lot has happened in the game lately.

I sincerely hope we can look beyond past issues when I was representing Vox Controli. They were tense and untrusting times, and I apologize if I did anything personally to add to that atmosphere. I do believe we have entered a new era of trust and co-operation.

To business. We have completed Mysticism. We have sent it to you on the trade table as accepted. You need simply to accept to receive it.

We have also sent Warrior Code as part of the same package. This is where it gets complex, and why we need to talk - and perhaps even schedule a chat. Monday was a good evening last time - perhaps tomorrow night. Let us know. Anyways .. 'the facts, m'am, just the facts.'

You know we have met Lux. We had a deal with them - to complete a really misunderstood trade deal of old - where we would trade Mysticism for Warrior Code. Before that happened, we met GoW. After very little discussion, they proposed Warrior Code, Horseback Riding, and contact with you, in exchange for Mysticism and contact with RolePlay. The technology portion of that trade has gone through - BEFORE we really got down to discuss it or agree to it. So we also have Horseback Riding, which we will send next turn. (I'm not sure why you can't forward on a tech you received that turn - it shows that we have it.)

We explained to Lux what happened, and for good will, traded them Mysticism anyway for 20 gold.

In the meantime, and this baffles me - this is not acting guys - this really baffles me - we have been given contact with RolePlay. I figure they both have writing, and GoW just agreed to it. It didn't show up on any of our trade screens, and we obviously don't have writing yet. Any ideas?

Anyways - Roleplay was offering Mysticism, which we politely declined. They are also offering contact with NeuD. As are GoW for 20 gold.

Now - two key things we need from you.

One - a discussion on what we research next. We have put research on hold for one turn - waiting to hear from you. (Guess we had this one coming, eh. ) Our two choices are math (20 turns) or polytheism.(29). Or, we hang tight until writing is done (how long?) and we do one of philosophy or code of laws to get us both to the republic. Any thoughts? (Please think quickly - it is great for the treasury - but bad for science - and that means bad for both of us.)


end of horse number one (yes, a horse - even if we don't have any...)

(continued on second camel - er horse - yes, this is a horse)

Two - we have two - and now three civs clamoring at the door to meet you. You can see from the above that we have not held back any technology, nor used this leverage to our advantage in any way.That was the deal. But, with everyone trying to get in touch with you - that contact is now worth something - to both of us. We should try to maximize it terms of mutual benefit.

If you insist, and as part of the good will arrangement that now exists between us, we can and will simply provide contact if that is what you want. But that gets nothing for both of us. Also - one complication - as part of the Horseback Riding deal, GoW wants us NOT to trade it to you, so they can. We can explain that we are just going to give it to you, but they may not understand. The other civs on the continent (RP, NeuD, Lux, and GoW) seem to be in a dog-eat-dog kind of world, and may not understand our research pact. We know that Lux does not.

We can either tell GoW about our arrangement, and that there is no way we could hold back a tech. Or we can keep it from them, which makes contact with you more valuable. But we will be seen as being deceitful. GoW is fairly straightforwrd, but aggressive. Lux is a handful to deal with, and Neu D has written us and told us of similar issues. Neu D seems like a pretty solid civ, but we have had limited correspondence. And RolepLay- well who knows?

The real plus to opening up the trading arena is that with two of us wheeling and dealing - and then simply sharing what we get - we should be able to easily stay ahead of the others. But we - both Vox and GS - should get something in return for opening up that arena.

Also - we would like to eventually discuss expansion plans. If you recall the last discussion on border arrangements, the northen part of the neighbouring continent is very close to our capitol, and closer than the border towns down south. If we can get across and expand into that continent, with your assistance, then we can discuss a different split of the land in Estonia. I may be getting a bit ahead of the game here, but we should have some medium term goals.

Anyways, please get back to us regarding the first two points. If you think a chat will help, name a time tomorrow evening, and we will try to gather our limited supply of folks.

Take care. Hope all is well at your end.

Cheers! Beta

ps - I much prefer doing business this way and in this environment.

[nbarclay]

Message I sent to BetaHound asking for clarification on the Horseback Riding situation:

Thanks for the clarification. You've given us a lot to think about, and, as seems usual between our teams, on a very tight schedule. Question: Did GoW make your not trading Horseback Riding to us a condition of the deal, or did the two issues arrive on separate horses?

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Reply from BetaHound (two messages):

nathan - well perhaps it is best if I show you the note. It is attached at the end. The tech trade is done - we can 'stiff' GoW on the 'contact with GS' thing, but we have tried not to do that to date. The note is a bit unclear. He references a discussion with me that we have not had - I offered the straight tech deal. And the contact with Roleplay just showed up - I'm not sure how you actually turn it down. So we feel that this deal has kind of been 'thrust' upon us. We like it as it gets our alliance some good return on Mysticism (the two techs - some 80 beakers worth), but we need to work out something on the Horseback Riding issue. Obviously don't let GoW know we have sent this.

Also -if we were to do this - how do we give anyone contact with you. It is not on our trade screens, so it must be dependent on having writing.

BTW - over dinner I was thinking of Mathematics (pi r squared - actually we had strawberries for desert) and we may be able to auction off contact with you for mathematics. We learned from Lux - sorry forgot to add this - that they think GoW is currently researching math. Don't know what the others are researching. We (vox) may look like leaches for trying to get the best deal for contact with you - but then again - anyone we aggravate becomes your close friends. We stay close friends with the others. As long as they don't clue in to the tech trading arrangement bewteen us, we can probably make it work.

The delay on this was not us trying to jerk GoW around. It was my birthday yesterday and my wife had a day and night planned downtown - dinner, Lion King, spiffy hotel, - it was hard for me to say "sorry hon, we got this deal going with Glory of War, You understand." jon is pretty busy with school these days, and Dissident had things on the go. And that's about it.

I am around and close to a computer for the next couple hours and tomorrow all day.

Here is Ghengis' note:

Current Deal
This is an overview of the deal we discussed with Roleplay and Betahound but never received confirmation from Dissident. I have sent this on through the game as our team time has run out of time (24 hour rule) and I can't wait for the answer any longer.

---

We accepted the trade to give you Warrior Code AND contact with Roleplay for 15 gold now.

(You know have contact with Roleplay and Warrior Code)


We have sent you an offer for Horseback Riding and chosen accept, all you have to do is click accept and you will have Horseback Riding that turn.

By clicking accept you agreee to:

Give us and Roleplay contact with GS and agree NOT to trade Horseback Riding to GS (allow us the right to trade it to them).

---

If wish to have contact with ND we will give that to you next turn for 20 gold.

Sorry for the lack of notice but the 24 hour rule but a constraint on the amount of time we had to work with. Roleplay is fully informed of this deal and is expecting to receive contact from GS from you next turn.

Second Message:

After all that I didn't really answer your question. I would say it is a condition of the deal - but as my first reply indicated, not discussed or agreed to in writing at all. We can always claim 'ignorance'. Hey, we're good at that, remember. ... Beta.