Dimplomatic Scholia: Ambassador's Office - Vox Controli

[nbarclay]

Confirmation of our intent for confidentiality, and clarification on the forward observers idea.

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

I apologize if my large number of messages offends your love of the number One, but I hope you can keep in mind the nature of these camel caravans that I must rely on.to deliver my messages. When one caravan is starting to move out, I never know when the next might be ready. So if I have any correspondence for which time is of the essence, I must finish it and send it while I have the chance. If I forget something (or am too busy to address any but the most urgent matters before a caravan leaves), well, I just have to wait for the next caravan.

In regard to the confidentiality issue, I had already said in my previous message, “We will, of course, treat information we receive from you as equally confidential.” But perhaps that portion of the message was damaged along the way, traveling such a vast distance as it had to. In any case, I assure you once again that information we receive from you will be held in the strictest confidence.

From the reports I have been hearing on your warriors’ movements, I am starting to wonder whether there might have been some sort of translation error regarding our concept of posting forward observers. Our intent was that if you desired, instead of withdrawing them toward home, you could station Willy on the northernmost ridge of the mountains he had been exploring (now to his southeast) and Tim three tiles due west of that (“4-4-4” from that mountain in the Language of the Keys). Reports from our explorers indicate that those two locations would combine to provide an ideal vantage point from which you could verify that our forces are not intruding toward your lands. We certainly have no objections if you prefer to station your warriors farther back, but we want to make sure that if you do so, it is for your own reasons and not because you mistakenly think we demand it. (Of course as I wrote before, both sides' forward observers will need to withdraw as our nations' borders expand.)

Well, the camels are about to head out again, and I cannot think of anything else I need to say at the moment. Best wishes to you, BetaHound, and to all your people.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm,
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

P.S. I am somewhat puzzled by these strange terms you keep using when talking about economic matters. Our scholars say they sound like they might have something to do with mathematics, but since we have not yet even discovered Alphabet, such concepts are far beyond us. For the present, my economic modeling must be confined to moving around stones representing various elements of our economy, but I do regard myself as among the foremost practitioners of that skill.

[nbarclay]

Another response from BetaHound:

Greetings Nathan - esteemed shuffler of stones. (hint - call it an abacus, tell them its mathematics, and they will think you're a genius.)

Thank-you for your note of clarification. Indeed, there was confusion at our end. In much the same way as when our warriors were heading south I had a difficult time turning them around, it would now appear that they are heading north with the same singularity of intent. The internal camel network is still under development. Sigh...

But we were in agreement as to look-out positions for Warrior Willy and Warrior Tim. Something got lost in the translation with the language of the keys at our end. They will be moving to take up the agreed upon positions shortly.

I trust Thud has made himself comfortable. With a new city going up shortly, he will be able to avail himself of the luxuries of suburban fast-food markets.

I appreciate the confirmation of the confidentiality pack. With all the paper-work these days, well it gets a bit overwhelming for one such as myself. I need to revisit your other recent letters to see if there is anything outstanding. But with the earlier tensions relieved we can do this at our leisure.

Once again - thank-you for your note. I will be talking to you shortly. Regards. ... BetaHound, VFA, Vox C.

- by the way - I should open up the One Book in the next day or two ... maybe something from the Book of Eli.

[Theseus]

1. I don;t have the map in front of me... what means the comment re Thud's position?

2. The Book of Eli... any thoughts?

[nbarclay]

Message from us to Vox regarding the second phase of the tech deal. (I had to split it in two parts due to the 4000 character on PM lengths.)

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

At long last, the time has come for the second part of our technological exchange. Our scholars have worked out the basic shape of the letters of our new alphabet, and while they would keep fiddling around with the last few details forever if we let them (you know how scholars can be), we have told them that they need to move on to other tasks. (What good is an alphabet, after all, if they don’t figure out how to use it to write?)

We are still just short of a point where we could present a formal offer of Alphabet through the Interface of the Mystic Game, but if you could initiate the agreement by offering Iron Working on your end of the Interface, I feel confident that we will be able to present Alphabet on our end immediately after. Then, once you indicate to the Interface that you accept the deal, the first major trade agreement between our peoples will be brought to a successful conclusion.

Speaking of Writing, our people would be very interested in some sort of additional trade agreement once we learn that skill. Our fondest wish is to gain full diplomatic contact with other nations, and our people are ready to offer a proposal in that regard. Once our researchers finish learning how to write, we would offer you that knowledge in exchange for helping us to establish formal contact with your immediate neighbor plus some minor, far less valuable technology that you have researched. You would benefit from an exchange of knowledge on terms highly favorable to you, and we would benefit by obtaining contact beyond your borders more quickly than would be possible otherwise. (For that matter, once you learn how to write, you may also be able to arrange contact with more distant nations.)

If we arrange such an agreement, however, we would like it to include “patent” protection (as our first lawyers contemplate calling it when they someday write their Code of Laws) on the technologies involved. Under the concept of a “patent,” each side would retain an exclusive right to sell or trade the technology it researched for some limited time, say twenty turns, after the exchange is completed.

There is no need for urgency in working out the details of an agreement involving Writing, since our Writing project is not expected to be finished quickly. But it seems prudent to go ahead and let you know what we are thinking in order to reduce the risk of duplication of research efforts. Please consider our proposal and let us know what you think when you get a chance.

While I am sending this message (and given your fondness for the number One), there are some other matters that seem worth addressing. First we have still not established who the other nation you have formally met is. Last we heard, you were asking them for consent for you to tell us their identities, and we remain understandably curious.

Second, although you have told us about the lands you call North Estonia, you sounded like there is a third part of the land mass connected to North Estonia. Our cartographers remain highly curious about that land, and as I indicated earlier (although it may have gotten lost amidst the flood of more urgent issues), it would be easier to determine what should be regarded as fair eventual borders between our peoples if we knew more about those other lands.

And third, the road you are building near Lookout Ridge (as we call the mountain Grog is using as his observation post) has raised some eyebrows among our people. There are those who fear (as much as it embarrasses me to say so) that even in spite of your words of peace, you are building it as a route through which to invade us. My own thought is that you are perhaps preparing the way to build a city northeast of Lookout Ridge, but it would set certain people’s minds at ease if you would tell us of your intentions. As Wisdom 4:7 says, “Ignorance breeds fear, but the fruit of knowledge is hope.”

These are all the matters I can think of at this time, and anything I have forgotten should be able to keep for a while longer. My best wishes for your health, and for that of your nation.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[nbarclay]

Another message to Vox regarding the trade deal:

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

In case you are wondering why our scholars did not come to teach you Alphabet with the last caravan [i.e. turn], Sir Ralph has the flu and forgot to send them before sending the caravan to you. They should reach you shortly, and we would appreciate it if you would accept them and quickly send back smiths to teach us Iron Working so that we can complete the second phase of our exchange of knowledge.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[nbarclay]

Response from Vox in two parts:

Dear nbarclay, of Gathering Storm.

As you can well imagine, your recent letter created somewhat of a stir in Vox Controli, and hence the delay in responding.

Perhaps a senator, who will remain un-named, said it best when he quoted from the One Book. The book of Pastures.

Pastures 5, verses 1-4

1. And the cows will graze. And they will eat grass. And they will defecate.

2. And it will be pure and honest stuff, and can be used in the fields as fertilizer.

3. And the bulls will graze. And they will eat grass. And they will defecate.

4. But it is neither pure, nor honest. And can not be used for much of anything.

Now, before you react, please let me explain. I'm sure you will see why we are perplexed and somewhat disturbed.

When you approached us last regarding this trade, we were 12 turns away from completing our research on iron working. We have been watching carefully our allocation of funds to both the research and the treasury, with an aim to maximizing research, but alas, The Voice is obviously not as blessed as your capitol.

At that point, you had just switched your research efforts and were undertaking your new direction - that of Alphabet. Or so you told us. Now, either you have a magical approach to research, or, you have been trading technology with another contact, which makes a joke of your 'patent' proposal. If you have been trading, I would be curious to know who our bronze working has made it to.

So, here we sit, two turns to completing iron working (or one by the time this letter reaches you) , and you have already completed research on Alphabet, which our scientists tell me requires some 50 beakers and should take nearly, but not quite as long as our iron working research, which we have been diligently working on since we came into existence.

The other possibility is that the 'big rush' to do the bronze working trade (because, as you stated at the time, you were about to start a new research path) was just a ruse to pressure us into the trade. You may have well been on to a new research path already. And let's be honest about that trade; beaker's aside, it was of much more value to you to get bronze working and the ability to produce spearmen, than it was for us to get the wheel.

So, before there is anymore talk of technology trading, we would like to know what is going on. Simple as that. I sincerely hope you can clarify matters for us.

As to the nation that borders us to the north, well, as I said earlier, we have promised not to reveal names. As of yet. Particularly now where your integrity is much in question on our senate floor. But we have been honest as to our contact with them. And I will also tell you that we have not provided any technology to our 'other' neighbours to date.

However, the possibility still exists for a larger trade consordium involving you, and we are in serious discussion with them regarding this. There is even early talk of a possible 'Eastern Alliance', and what benefits that might entail for all concerned.

As to the road which so bothers you, well, it is for settlement purposes only. From what I can recall of our cartography discussions, you clearly have the advantage in geography. I have revisited our map and measured it in square vixens, a measurement you may know better as tiles. North Estonia is some 30 tiles in size.

So - if the people of Gathering Storm want to talk fairness, let's talk. I believe Vox settling the area north of the Sierra Centralis - the mountain range where our warriors are currently on look-out - is more than a fair sub-division of the continent we share. If you deny us that - well, why not simply deny us existence - as you will be trapping us in the limited confines of North Estonia. Furthemore, the land south of the mountains, from what we can see, has grasslands and decent terrain. The land north of the mountains is largely jungle.

end of part 1. Part 2 follows.

[nbarclay]

Part 2:

To finalize the geography discussion, and to make it absolutely clear as to our intentions, we are building the road to establish new settlements. Settlements which we can assure you, will be north of the mountains. Thud can remain where he is to confirm who comes and goes. That was the intent of the original agreement.

And to conlude, what I acknowledge is a somewhat testy letter, I will quote the scriptures of the storm:

As Wisdom 4:7 says, “Ignorance breeds fear, but the fruit of knowledge is hope.”

But I think, if I am not mistaken, that Wisdom 4:19 reads "Practice what you preach."

I trust you can understand why we are seeking clarification as to the technology issue before proceeding with any more trade talks. I also hope you can see where our limited and modest settlement plans are more than fair, particulary given that you have a clearly established watch-guard position to ensure that only civilian units and their escorts come down the road.

Yours truly, BetaHound, VFA, Vox Controli

[Theseus]

The Book of Storms reads:

"F-ck you."

Edit: Sorry, I did it again... my emotions got the best of me. A more complete response will be posted in the correct thread.

[nbarclay]

Message sent to Vox. Sorry about few if any people's getting a chance to check over the final text, but when I saw that Demogyptica had finished their turn, I figured I'd better go ahead and send it. This one took three camels, by the way.

Greetings BetaHound and Vox Controli,

On the subject of cows and bulls (and what comes from them), our analysts find it almost impossible to believe that you do not already have Iron Working. According to their analysis, Iron Working should cost us twice as much to research as Warrior Code if no nation we know has either. Similarly, Writing should require one third more research than Iron Working. And there are similar relationships regarding the costs of all other technologies we could currently research. Since you are our only in-game contact at present (your suspicions to the contrary notwithstanding), our analysts say that only your having researched a technology should create a deviation between anticipated and actual research costs.

With every other technology we can consider researching, costs follow a consistent pattern. But the cost of Iron Working is lower than it ought to be if you have not yet researched it. The real clincher is that at the rate we can research Iron Working, we ought to be able to research Writing one turn faster than we actually can – unless the contact situation has made Iron Working cheaper. If you are telling the truth, there is some great mystery here by which the assumptions our analysts base their work on is invalid. But I hope you can see why we would be extremely skeptical regarding your claims of not yet having discovered Iron Working. Either you are lying to us, or our understanding of the world we live in is seriously flawed. (By the way, the original analysis was conducted in 2230 BC, but I have since confirmed the figures myself.)

Regarding our own research rate, if you have been watching the Roster of Great Cities, I’m sure you have seen that Eye of the Storm has been consistently at least size 3 and often size 4 on the International City Size Scale for quite some time. Eye of the Storm has not worked land producing less than two commerce in centuries, and Hurricane has sometimes had access to two commerce and sometimes just one depending on priorities of the moment. Add to that the commerce from the city sites themselves (with capitals inherently being especially wealthy) and you can see for yourself that our research rate, although quite rapid, is not impossible. (And I should note that at Sir Ralph’s insistence, we had already started researching Alphabet based on your conditional acceptance of our trade proposal before you sent your final acceptance, leaving us a turn ahead of where we would have been had more cautious policies prevailed.)

Next, in regard to your claim that Bronze Working was worth more to us than The Wheel was to you, the fact that we would have researched Bronze and then Iron ourselves had you not agreed to the deal renders such short-term comparisons irrelevant. On that path, we would have had Bronze Working in plenty of time to build any spearmen we might want, and would be getting Iron Working through our own research about the same time we will get it from you assuming you keep your word. So the true benefits of the exchange are in terms of long-term prosperity, not short-term military advantage, and on that basis, the agreement was in your favor. We, unlike you, sacrificed a turn’s research (and that at our higher research rate) to make the deal work. Further, based on what you have indicated about your own research rate, a trade at equal value saves you significantly more research time than it does us compared with each doing the research ourselves. And that is not even considering the risk on our side and (I assume) hope on yours that you might be able to exchange The Wheel and/or Alphabet for gold and/or additional knowledge. (We never requested a patent on either of those technologies and, in fact, clearly acknowledged your prospects for trading them when we proposed the trade agreement. The patent concept is strictly in connection with trades involving Writing and beyond.)

If you need further assurance regarding the fact that you are the only nation we currently have in-game contact with, I could e-mail one or more of your people a copy of the “Histograph” portion of our bureaucrats’ “form F8” summarizing relative “scores”. [I’d need an e-mail address or addresses, though, since PMs can’t handle graphics.] That would be sufficient to show both that only our two civilizations appear on that form and that the date on the form is current. By the way, in case you are wondering about recent appearances on similar forms from your own bureaucrats, we recently founded a third city. (Alas, shortly after sending out our settler, our glorious capital was struck by disease, but it has since recovered.)

Before I leave the issue of trade deals, there is one final point I would like to make that is causing us a certain amount of concern. When we first approached you to propose the two-stage deal, we conveyed (or at least I certainly attempted to convey) our assumption that you had already researched Iron Working as your first priority. You said nothing to indicate that our assumption was incorrect, and thereby left us to assume that the exchange of Alphabet for Iron Working could be completed just as soon as we completed our research into Alphabet. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you are now telling the truth that you had not already researched Iron Working, you left us to labor under a false assumption. And while I see the military sense in not revealing your lack of a key military technology, the situation thus created is not ideal for building trust.

At this point, the situation for us has become extremely awkward. When you not only failed to offer Iron Working as requested even though we assumed you already had it, but also failed to provide any other meaningful response to our message indicating that we were ready for the exchange, that left us wondering about the possibility, however remote, that you might renege on your promise. That concern caused us to suspend our research while waiting for the deal to be completed, since if we do not get Iron Working from you, we need to start researching it ourselves immediately (in spite of how horribly distasteful such a duplication of effort is). But the strain of the delay grows greater every turn, and we really need for you to accept our offer of Alphabet and return your offer of Iron Working immediately so that we can get on with our Writing research (which, we hope, you can also benefit from through some sort of future exchange). Unless the deal goes through (or, at the very least, we get an extremely solid explanation for why it does not go through), our government will face intense pressure to write you off as oath breakers and start our own research into Iron Working, in which case the consequences for the relationship between our nations would be less than pleasant. (I am not attempting to threaten here; merely to point out the powerful forces involved in such matters.)

In regard to issues of settling and borders, on a continent as small as this one, it seems prudent to make sure you recognize the importance of making the greatest possible use of the space available. Our city planners are working on a principle they have developed known as the “size 12 principle.” Specifically, cities should be positioned to use all of our land, as much coast as is practical, and most of the sea within our cities’ borders at size 12. That does not allow much room for additional growth should our scientists someday come up with a way to grow cities beyond what a river or lake permits, but we feel that maximizing our gold for science in the meantime is far more important. (And cities built on the “size 12 principle” don’t generally need to start working much if any coast or seas until beyond size 6, which most cities will not be able to exceed until the “aqueducts” certain of our visionaries contemplate can be built.) We strongly recommend that you follow a similar pattern, both to maximize your ability to generate wealth and to avoid possible tensions between our peoples over accusations of “squandering” useful land.

As for whether the northern end of the Spinebreaker Mountains (or Sierra Centralis as you call them) would be a good border, some of your earlier words had given us hope that ours was not the only direction you could possibly expand in. Regarding North Estonia, you said, “And lastly, it connects to another landmass to the east.” If you have another land mass in another direction, can you not do some of your expanding in that direction? We have no other lands within sight that we can expand to, and we had really hoped to expand at least a little north of the mountains. Also, if you have a lake in North Estonia, North Estonia itself ought to be able to support four cities with proper planning. (Eventually, it can regardless of whether you have a lake or not, but we could understand your not wanting to make cities that would have a hard time growing any time in the near future your top priority.)

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[nbarclay]

Response from Jon Miller

I think that Beta expressed our concerns, but did so improperly. Looking over his messages, he told you where we would have been if we had not traded for Iron Working (With our close neighbors to the north). I must admit that we are somewhat worried about your nation, appearing to research so much faster than us and to be better located also. In any case, we just got Iron Working recently (which means that we could do our deal), but would rather get alphabet much much more cheaply from another source. Is there anyway we could get writing from you for ironworking? It is what the other civ wants right now, actually, but we cannot provide them with it in any timely matter (alphabet is so common for them that they are willing to give it away for cheap). We would be willing to give you iron working now, in exchange for writing later.

[nbarclay]

I sent the following to Jon Miller. It's really more in the nature of a personal message than a formal diplomatic one, but I include it here in the interest of completeness.

I've presented your message to the team, but here's my own, personal reaction. Our original arrangement was designed so that the first stage of the trade would give you a higher-value tech and the second would give us a higher-value tech so that the two exchanges would balance. Now you are asking for two consecutive exchanges where you end up with the higher value. Does that seem fair to you? It certainly doesn't to me - especially not when you sound like you want to then trade Writing to another civ to further enrich yourselves.

I'm willing to propose the following counter-offer to Gathering Storm:

(1) We go ahead with the Iron Working for Alphabet now. (That helps both of us compared with if you would make an exchange with our rival to your north (which I suspect is Lux)).

(2) When we get Writing, we trade it to you for whatever contacts with other civs you have at the time.

(3) We retain an exclusive right to trade Writing to other civs. Considering that compared with our original agreement, you will be getting Writing for nothing more than contact information, that does not seem like an unreasonable stipulation.

(4) You agree not to try to renegotiate the deal further, even if an opportunity comes up where you might be able to get a deal you like better on Writing elsewhere.

I don't know how my own team will react to this, and it's certainly not an official proposal yet, but I'll go ahead and bring it up with you at the same time I do with Gathering Storm so you folks can go ahead and start thinking about whether you would agree to it if we make it (or something similar) an official offer.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

It looks like Jon Miller is taking over ambassadorial duties for Vox. A couple messages, received almost back to back:

we are planning to give you Iron Working now

but as part of a trade deal in the future (I will be passing this on to our players)

we want the trade deal for ironworking (plus it for a future tech, we are thinkging IW for writing)

basically, ironworking is teir two, alphabet is teir one

so we are not likeing that (bronzeworking and the wheel are both teir 1)

WC is a tier 1, so we are thinking of gifting that to you

BTW, I have taken over as contact for Vox

Jon Miller

note

there is another faction(in vox), who wants to do a different deal with Lux, and trade alphabet for ironwkring with you (although none of us want to do that, as I said tier 2 for tier 1), this is of course with the trade deal

Jon Miller

[nbarclay]

Message from us to Vox:

I don't mean to offend, but such an obsessiion with tier 2 vs. tier 1 seems to reflect a lack of understanding of the game's mechanics. Alphabet, cost 5 in the editor, is the most expensive of the tier 1 techs. It costs two and a half times as much as Pottery or Ceremonial Burial, and only one sixth less than Iron Working. The original deal was deliberately balanced so that each side would contribute techs with a total cost of 9 in the editor to the exchange. And if that was not sufficient for you, you should have brought up the tier 2 vs. tier 1 issue when we were negotiating the original deal.

Yes, Iron Working and Writing are both tier 2 techs, but Iron Working is only cost 6, while Writing is cost 8. So in your revised proposal, you would be getting the more expensive tech out of both deals.

And while throwing in Warrior Code would balance the values, (aside from our 12 wasted gold from abandoning our Bronze Working research), that is not what we really want. What we really want is contact so that we aren't stuck with you playing middleman where any equal-value tech deal we make with you gives you the opportunity to gain extra profit selling or trading to your other neighbor. Under such circumstances, nominally equal trades are very heavily in your favor. (For example, I can't help but wonder whether you might have traded The Wheel, which you got from us, in order to get Iron Working earlier than you would have otherwise. If so, BetaHound's contention that the deal favored us is completely laughable.)

And your inclination to seek to renegotiate agreements that have already been made only serves to make the situation worse. Even if we make an agreement, can we trust you to keep it? And do we really want to have all of our trade deals filter through a neighbor we are not entirely sure we can trust?

I still see a lot of promise in the possibility of a three-way partnership, but it would have to be a true partnership of equals, not an arrangement where all trades have to go through Vox as middleman. If you attempt to insist on maintaining your "middleman" status, even in the face of offers that would give you significant value in return for giving it up, you might profit temporarily, but the consequences regarding our desire to maintain a long-term trade relationship with you once that monopoly on contact is broken will be catastrophic. That is all the more true in light of the possibility that had you not blocked Grog's exploration earlier, he might have been able to make contact with the other civilization long ago.

Basically, at this point, you have three choices. You can go through with your original agreement. You can accept our new offer (or perhaps come up with a counter-offer we regard as similarly acceptable, although I can't imagine our going for anything that doesn't address the contact situation), in which case your willingness to give up contact will be counted in your favor in future negotiations. Or you can break the deal outright by demanding renegotiation on terms not truly acceptable to us, in which case even if we accept some sort of deal, you will have destroyed all hope for any kind of partnership that lasts beyond the minute we break your stranglehold on contact.

My apologies if this is not worded as diplomatically as it could be, but I want to make sure you understand the truth of the situation. Yes, you might profit in the short term by forcing us to accept a deal we don't like (assuming we don't just give up on dealing with you altogether), but you need to be fully aware of the long-term price that would come from such a choice.

Sincerely,

The People of Gathering Storm
Nathan Barclay, Chief Economist

[nbarclay]

Response from Vox:

actually that is are problem with the other side

they have contact with many people, and have way more techs than either of us (including writing and the like)

they already ahd the wheel, they already had alphabet, they already have everything (the civs on the mainland worry us a lot for being way ahead of us)

our idea is that we will trade you all we have that you don't, and you will do the same

than neither has to worry about tech acendency of the other, or unfairness

the reason why we don't want to give you contact yet is because we are worried about beign gained up on, once there is a history of peace between us we would be happy to give you contact

we are busy studyign something they don't have, mysticism, which if we have a trade treaty we will give you also

Jon Miller

[nbarclay]

Another message from Vox:

now to addressing singular issues

we did not trade the wheel further on, they already had it

the deal with teir one versus teir two is positional ballance wihtin the civs, if we are trading teir twof ro teir one, than the civ who got the teir 2 would have a much better tech position than we would (tey would gain, we would not)

one point is that at this point they (the other civs) don't all already have teir 2s, they already do have teir 1s

so yes, I would like to trade out, but as I said, we will funnel everything back to you (as part of the trade agreement)

either that or we could try to work it into our trade, but I ahve a hard time to see how to do this

this will make up for both of us being somewhat removed from the rest of the civs (we only have the contact with the one civ, and are refused any more)

it will also make us both fairly reliant upon my neighbor, who we will give you contact with once we trust both of you more

as you can tell I am a plain talker

basically the alphabet trade is not good for us

we are having to trade a teir two tech for the IW, and we would like one back, if we do not have a trade agreement going

the reason why this stuff just came up is because we were nto aware of how the rest of hte civs are trading