DIPLO: Legoland diplomatic contact LOG

[zeit]

I've sent our offer for Theology to redstar1 and vondrack:

Honorable vondrack of Legoland.

Greetings from the land of the Storm. I hope things are going well on your peaceful land. Our people envy yours, for they have almost forgotten how it was living peacefuly, with little fear of untimely death. Fortunately, our enemy's forces experience untimely death more frequently than ours, which are of course good news.

With our recent progress in the war, our minds are now set on issues other than warplans, such as tech trade.

I am sure you remember we once discussed the prospect of future tech trades, more precisely- us purchasing Theology from you in exchange to Feudalism and a sum of gold to compensate you for the tech cost difference. We assume you are still interested, and that you will soon (if not already) have the tech in your possession. Therefor, we are coming with this offer for a trade agreement. I hope you find it reasonable:

1) GS and Legoland will exchange the techs Theology (Lego) for Feudalism (GS).

2) On the same turn, GS will deliver 60 gold in lump sum, to compensate Legoland for the difference in beaker cost of the two techs.

Please reply as soon as possible, and if possible- your current estimate on the ETA of Theology, in case you havn't finished research yet.

Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

[zeit]

Vondrack's reply- seems like it'll be a while before we'll be closing anything.

Honorable Ambassador,

I am hereby acknowledging the receipt of your kind offer. I have already posted it in our forum and will get back to you once my fellow Legos comment on it. Due to the change of our team government and several Legos being offline due to the Memorial Day weekend, I believe Tuesday is when I, our new President ZargonX, or our ambassador will be authorized to discuss your offer in detail. We shall have Theology ready for trading by that time.

Best regards,
vondrack, The President of Legoland

[zeit]

Our "harsh" message to Legoland:

Respected vondrack of Legoland.

I have not recieved word from you regarding the proposal I had sent you, but I did get an answer from looking at the save file.

Your decision to buy Feudalism from another source was quite disappointing for the team and I.
The team as a whole expected Lego to acquire the tech from us, as part of a Theology deal, as was discussed a while ago in a chat we've had.
We saw no reason to suspect you'd change your mind- that is not to say we did not expect the possibility of such development, which is also why I have sent you the last proposal, but I had assumed that we would at least recieve a refusal in the diplomatic channel, and not have to find out about it ourselves.

Sincerely

Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

[zeit]

A reply from vondrack:

Respected Ambassador,

We sincerely apologize for not getting back to you sooner. The issue of acquiring Feudalism got tricky this week, with quite an unexpected event happening - and the team discussion on how to react and how to properly respond to your proposal, considering the new situation, lead to the delay. It was, however, our fault we did not at least notify you of the development. Accept our apologies for that.

The primary event making things complicated was that we received Feudalism from another team. We did not trade for it - we were simply sent it as "accepted" with no ties attached. This put us into a pretty delicate position, as it's rather difficult to reject such a gift without offending the donor - but we had, at the same time, parallel negotiations going on regarding the acquisition of Feudalism from you.

Now, after some discussion and hesitation, we eventually accepted the unexpected Feudalism - you do not find it lying around every day... and we are now trying to come up with a fair deal that would allow us to trade you Theology for a price reflecting our desire to maintain good trading relations, while taking into consideration that we no longer need Feudalism.

I am not in a position allowing me to submit an official trade proposal - but I would like to let you know there is currently an idea having a strong support in our team. According to this plan, we'd sell you Theology for a relatively moderate amount of gold, balancing the price by a "no-wonder" clause.

Let me explain: as you probably know, Legoland is quite short of luxuries. We only have one kind here, Dyes. In order to grant our people happy lives, we'll have to make extreme efforts constructing happiness city improvements, trading technologies and gold for the luxuries we lack, and so on. As part of our efforts, we consider building the Sistine's Chapel.

We are well aware of that building wonders is always a risky race, often leading to a "waste" of enormous amounts of shields. Thus, we are trying to arrange agreements with other teams that would allow us to safely finish building the Sistine's Chapel.

Would your team be willing to waive the possibility of building the Sistine's Chapel in exchange for buying Theology from us for a sum of gold significantly lower than what would be appropriate to the research cost of this technology? As no technology as costly as Theology has been discovered yet, it is a bit difficult to set a price that could be easily recognized as "advantageous"... but ATM, we are thinking along the lines of what you asked for the cheaper Feudalism, maybe even less. The no-Sistine clause is a focus here, more than the gold is...

If you can let us know how does this idea sound to you, we would be able to formulate/send an official proposal faster. Keep in mind, please, that I am sort of exceeding my authorization now, in an attempt to fix our fault of seemingly ignoring your latest tech trade proposal. I have not been authorized to submit this as an official proposal - though I strongly believe this will become our official proposal once our members come back on Monday and the discussion reaches a conclusion (your positive or negative feedback regarding the idea might help a lot) - but unfortunately, our team life pretty much stops on weekends, with very few active members remaining available for decision taking...

Best regards,
vondrack, Military Architect of Legoland

My reply

Honorable Vondrack of Legoland.

Thank you for the quick and detailed response. I will post your message on our private board. Hopefully in the next few days I can get back to you with a reply, if not to a fomal proposal, than at least to the general idea of trade you've proposed.

Regards
Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

[ManicStarSeed]

argonX we also would like to chat with you. DeepO is your assigned ambassador, but I would like to be here. I am busy today but Maybe sunday or just about any weekday night (PDT). Check in with DeepO, Ill bet he has the most restrictive schedule...

ZargonX wrote on 13-06-2003 22:33:
MSS,

The people of Legoland would like to schedule a time we could perhaps chat with someone representing your team (my apologies, but I am not positive who your ambassador to us is). Please contact me if this would be possible.

Thank you,
ZargonX

[notyoueither]

PM to vondrack:

Hello again.

I feel like a goof. I forgot to note that the mIRC client I was using was not logging. Doh! Sounds just like my l33t skillz, yes?

Could you provide me with a log of the chat? It would be much appreciated. We can wait for someone else who was around to be back, but time may be a critical element in these matters.

notyoueither@hotmail.com if you have it handy. Thanks.

Oh, one other thing. We are aware that there are forces other than those of Vox or GS on their way to the Isle of Stormia. Their landing would be very problematic for these negotiations. Might even derail them entirely. Could Lego put the word out among other nations to whomever may control these mercenaries that having their minions land would be counterproductive? I will try, but my contacts are not well developed, and time may be an issue.

PS. I was a dove. I am inclined to help these negotiations along. If there is anything you can do to help, please let me know.

[notyoueither]

Log from vondrack:

Session Start: Sat Jun 14 23:21:49 2003
Session Ident: #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:21] * Now talking in #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:21] {Shiber> yo yo yo
[23:21] * Shiber sets mode: +o vondrack
[23:22] {Shiber> it's the von
[23:22] {vondrack> ok, what pleasures exactly?
[23:22] {vondrack>
[23:22] {Shiber> What, getting to talk to me is not pleasurable enough?
[23:22] {vondrack> oops...
[23:22] {Shiber> OK, I'll give you some pleasures...
[23:22] {Shiber> :dirtiest-dance-ever:
[23:22] {Shiber> There. How was I?
[23:22] {vondrack> Awesome!
[23:23] {vondrack> I am still trying to get my mIRC back into order...
[23:23] {vondrack> most buttons danced away seeing your performance...
[23:24] {Shiber> lol
[23:24] {vondrack> who's going to attend?
[23:25] {Shiber> me and that invisible cat over there
[23:25] {Shiber> and hopefully at least one of my teammates can come on such a short notice
[23:25] {vondrack> ok, just gimme a shout when you want to start
[23:25] {Shiber> noone has even viewed the thread but m yet
[23:25] {Shiber> *me
[23:26] {vondrack> yeah... that was exactly my problem with PMing GS...
[23:26] {Shiber> anyway, lots of barbarians in your 'hood, i hear
[23:26] {Shiber> i heard that vox is moving in soon though
[23:26] {vondrack> yeah... we have been able to pull a great contract with them
[23:27] {vondrack> moving in?
[23:27] {Shiber> i've spoken with some members of vox, they talk like they've already settled an agreement with you
[23:27] {Shiber> not you in particular, your team
[23:28] {vondrack> yes, there were extensive discussions held
[23:28] {Shiber> and they resulted in...?
[23:28] {vondrack> nothing tangible yet
[23:28] {vondrack> but I will explain
[23:28] {Shiber> What does that mean?
[23:28] {Shiber> I mean, are they moving in or not?
[23:29] {Shiber> This kindof concerns GS too, I reckon
[23:29] {vondrack> I think that pretty much depends on what YOU do...
[23:29] {Shiber> Yes, but we've already made ourselves clear.
[23:30] {Shiber> And Beta has killed any remaining chances for peace with Vox still on the continent.
[23:30] {vondrack> yes, that part is clear
[23:31] {Shiber> Not really killed, more like tortured, raped, mutilated, pulled by the hair into an industrial meat tenderizer, melted, vaporized, loaded onto a rocket and blasted it off into the sun
[23:31] {Shiber> or something
[23:31] {vondrack> but I also read quite clearly that a major part of GS wants Voxes dead... so that's why I am saying it depends on you, too
[23:32] {Shiber> Even I'm not sure if I want to go for the Voxodus anymore, or if we'd rather destroy Vox and sink any fleeing galleys in order to eliminate the source of the backroom diplomacy epidemic that's killing the game
[23:32] {vondrack> wanna kill the source of the backroom diplomacy, Shiber?
[23:33] {Shiber> I'd love to, yes
[23:33] {vondrack> you better start building up militarily then...
[23:33] {Shiber> Please explain
[23:33] {vondrack> you would have a couple more teams to go
[23:33] {vondrack> GS & ND are the only teams not involved in this
[23:33] {vondrack> in diplomacy, I mean
[23:34] {Shiber> There are certain levels of backroom diplomacy that I'm willing to tolerate
[23:34] {Shiber> Vox has crossed my final red line
[23:34] * vondrack sighs
[23:34] {Shiber> Constantly trying to stain our image, sending PMs full of lies to other teams behind our backs...
[23:34] {Shiber> I know what you're thinking, Vondrack. "There's so much he doesn't know about what goes on behind his team's back"
[23:34] {vondrack> and I was trying to point out that what you believe may not be what is actually true
[23:35] {Shiber> Or at least I think I know what you're thinking
[23:35] {vondrack> partially, yes
[23:35] {vondrack> I believe you are readin' too much evil into what Vox do
[23:35] {Shiber> We believe that Vox is coordinating public attacks behind our backs and soliciting responses from other teams, and we suspect that they have a puppetmaster
[23:35] {vondrack> or maybe I am simply well "processed" by their propaganda? )
[23:36] {vondrack> I do not believe there is any puppetmaster
[23:36] {vondrack> honestly
[23:36] {Shiber> vondrack, when attacks on your team's integrity, morality, character and agenda are being made constantly, in public and in private channels, you start to get a little pissed off
[23:37] {Shiber> Beta is surprised that his constant slander is seen as personal attacks
[23:37] {Shiber> But I'd love to see him in our shoes
[23:37] {Shiber> Anyway, this whole affair is REALLY getting all the fun out of the game
[23:37] {Shiber> for me, and for several of my friends
[23:39] {vondrack> don't take it that seriously... no offense meant, but you get heated up rather quickly
[23:39] {vondrack> Shiber, could you invite ZargonX?
[23:39] {vondrack> he just dropped in to our Lego room
[23:39] {Shiber> just did
[23:39] {vondrack> ok, thanks
[23:39] {Shiber> vondrack, this has gone on for about two months now
[23:40] {Shiber> but you say "rather quickly"
[23:40] {vondrack> I know - been watching it
[23:40] {vondrack> "rather quickly" as in "rather quickly every time something like this happens"
[23:40] {Shiber> vondrack, let me tell you something
[23:41] {Shiber> GS, as you know, is comprised mainly of strat forum guys
[23:41] {vondrack> sure, I know that
[23:42] {Shiber> Before the game began, the team has decided that as the so-called strat forum team, we must take a very strict code of honor and honesty
[23:42] {Shiber> Otherwise, if we win or at least get close to that position, others might say "oh, as if all of their strat forum expertise wasn't enough, they had to lie and cheat in the process to get to where they are"
[23:43] {Shiber> We are very very strict about honor and honesty. We never, ever, lie or break promises or treaties. We don't tell half truths, we don't bend truths...
[23:43] {Shiber> We have discussions revolving around "Would doing this be fair / honest?"-type questions in our private forum all the time
[23:43] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited ZargonX into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:44] * ZargonX has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:44] {Shiber> That is why when Beta claimed publicly that we were violating agreements, it was the beginning of the end
[23:44] {ZargonX> hello, Shiber!
[23:44] {Shiber> hi ZargonX!
[23:44] {Shiber> From there it went downhill
[23:44] {vondrack> Shiber, can you invite Sharpe, please?
[23:44] {Shiber> Every time Beta opens his mouth, more people in GS are turned in favor of elimination rather than peace
[23:44] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited Sharpe into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:45] * Shiber sets mode: +o ZargonX
[23:45] {Shiber> Anyway, Vondrack, there's something that you wanted to say
[23:46] {Shiber> And it's 00:45AM local time, so I suggest that you start
[23:46] {vondrack> k
[23:46] {vondrack> so I take it we are not going to wait for anyone else, right?
[23:46] * Sharpe has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:46] {Sharpe> Hi!
[23:46] {Shiber> hello Sharpe
[23:46] {Shiber> enjoy all the pleasure that this house has to offer
[23:47] {Shiber> :dirtiest-dance-ever:
[23:47] {Shiber> How was that?
[23:47] {Sharpe> :sharpe pukes:
[23:47] {Sharpe> hehe
[23:47] {Shiber> Well done! You get op for that
[23:47] * Shiber sets mode: +o Sharpe
[23:47] {vondrack> alright then, on the topic
[23:47] {Shiber> I mean, a special hat shaped like a @
[23:47] {vondrack> I know I want to go to bed as much as you do
[23:48] {vondrack> first, our reasons to wish for peace
[23:49] {vondrack> I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
[23:49] {vondrack> just that nobody noticed, it seems
[23:49] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited nye_too into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:49] {vondrack> ah, ok, I will hold on a sec
[23:49] {Sharpe> any other GSers able to join us?
[23:49] {Shiber> You want their Engineering
[23:49] {Shiber> NYE is coming
[23:50] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited nye_too into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:50] {Shiber> Or he should be
[23:50] {vondrack> I suspect he is doing the ISDG stuff
[23:51] * nye_too has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:51] {vondrack> hi, nye!
[23:51] {Shiber> YAAY!
[23:51] {Shiber>
[23:51] {nye_too> hello
[23:51] {Sharpe> nbarclay is also on poly now, with SirRalph, Aeson and Lawrence of Arabia
[23:51] {Shiber> vondrack was just about to spill all the beans on why Lego is so interested in Vox's continued existence
[23:52] {nye_too> shiber must have wanted to keep you all to himself
[23:52] {vondrack> are we waiting for anyone else then?
[23:52] {vondrack> LoL
[23:52] {Shiber> If we keep on waiting I'll fall asleep over the keyboard
[23:53] {vondrack> not really, he's been doing his best to bring more of you in here
[23:53] {vondrack> ok, I will go on then
[23:53] {Shiber> You'll know when this happens because you'll see a stream of characters
[23:53] {nye_too> please do
[23:53] {vondrack> for nye:
[23:53] {vondrack> [23:48] {vondrack> first, our reasons to wish for peace
[23:53] {vondrack> [23:49] {vondrack> I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
[23:53] {vondrack> [23:49] {vondrack> just that nobody noticed, it seems
[23:53] {vondrack> that's all I managed to say so far
[23:53] {vondrack> to quote myself:
[23:54] {vondrack> Wars do very little good to building generally... and to well planned building in particular.
[23:54] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited SirRalph into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[23:54] {vondrack> Jesus...
[23:54] {Shiber> lol
[23:54] * SirRalph has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[23:54] {SirRalph> hello
[23:54] {vondrack> hello, Sir Ralph!
[23:55] {nye_too> hi, sir ralph
[23:55] {SirRalph> hi everyone
[23:55] {vondrack> anyone else to come?
[23:55] {Shiber> Let's assume not
[23:55] {Shiber> vondrack, please continue
[23:55] {vondrack> ok
[23:55] {Shiber> For SirRalph:
[23:55] {vondrack> recap one more time
[23:55] {Shiber> {vondrack> first, our reasons to wish for peace
[23:55] {Shiber> {vondrack> I actually hinted at one of them pretty clearly in my very first post in "that thread"
[23:55] {Shiber> {vondrack> just that nobody noticed, it seems
[23:55] {Shiber> {vondrack> Wars do very little good to building generally... and to well planned building in particular.
[23:55] {vondrack> right
[23:55] {vondrack> thanks
[23:55] {Shiber> There, I've said it. Feels good to get all that off my chest...
[23:55] {ZargonX> hey SirRalph
[23:56] * Shiber sets mode: +oo nye_too SirRalph
[23:56] * Shiber sets mode: +o SirRalph
[23:56] {vondrack> I thought I was pretty specific... I was talking about great leaders and wonders
[23:56] {nye_too> ahh. i see
[23:56] {vondrack> not that we would have ever planned to build SUn Tzu
[23:56] {vondrack> so that was no problem
[23:56] {Shiber> But all that stuff is mainly role play
[23:57] {vondrack> but there are important wonder builds we have ahead of us
[23:57] {vondrack> so ANY war is posing an ongoing risk for anyone trying to build wonder the hard way
[23:57] {Shiber> And... you don't want us getting any more leaders?
[23:57] {Shiber> Seriously, if you don't want us to build a certain wonder, negotiate a treaty.
[23:58] {SirRalph> I didn't even think of this stance, lol
[23:58] {vondrack> I will not pretend this is the only reason, but it is an important one
[23:58] {vondrack> let me go through all of that first, please
[23:58] {vondrack> it is a lot of things
[23:58] {nye_too> ok
[23:58] {Shiber> Well, you don't want people getting unplanned leaders and stealing wonders below your nose. So does everybody else.
[23:59] {vondrack> so, yes, this is one important aspect of why we would prefer the war was over quickly
[23:59] {Shiber> Don't be offended, I'm just trying to rush you because I estimate that I will fall asleep and my head would crash over the keyboard in roughly 4 minutes and 37 seconds
[23:59] {Shiber> vondrack, but this aspect is of no interest to us
[23:59] {vondrack> just as I anckowledged I understand your reasons to drive Voxes off Estonia
[23:59] {Shiber> On the other hand, it's a reason for us to continue the war
[23:59] {vondrack> then we have reasons to wish this war was over
[23:59] {nye_too> shiber, please let him speak
[23:59] {vondrack> right
[00:00] {nye_too> other reasons, vondrack?
[00:00] {vondrack> so it seems you would like to see something in exchange, right?
[00:00] {vondrack> yes, there are more reasons
[00:00] {vondrack> but they would not be worth the hassle of getting heavily involved
[00:00] {nye_too> please continue
[00:01] {vondrack> I believe we did tell DeepO
[00:01] {vondrack> that we have one problem here in Legoland
[00:01] {nye_too> deepO has not been around much. when did you message him?
[00:01] {vondrack> Shiber, can you reinvite Zargon, please?
[00:01] {SirRalph> what kind of problem?
[00:01] {vondrack> it was a looong time ago, nye
[00:01] {Sharpe> he also wonders how to get rid of ghosts
[00:02] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited ZargonX2 into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[00:02] {vondrack> the problem is that although we started on a decent piece of land
[00:02] * ZargonX2 has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[00:02] {ZargonX2> sorry, power outage...
[00:02] {ZargonX2> crazy storms
[00:02] {vondrack> we have only one luxury of our own
[00:02] {vondrack> dyes
[00:02] {Shiber> ZargonX, /msg nickserv ghost zargonx your-password
[00:02] {ZargonX2> thanks
[00:02] * ZargonX has quit IRC (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by ZargonX2)))
[00:02] * ZargonX2 is now known as ZargonX
[00:03] {nye_too> i beleive i can say that gs is interested in trading luxuries.
[00:03] {SirRalph> I hope "crazy storms" wasn't meant to be an insult!
[00:03] {vondrack> so, as it seems, we are bound to be in for some serious happiness building
[00:03] {ZargonX>
[00:03] {Shiber> I took it as a compliment
[00:03] {vondrack> we consider one wonder quite important to us
[00:03] {vondrack> The Sistine's Chapel
[00:03] {Shiber> The Sistine
[00:03] {ZargonX> yes
[00:03] {Shiber> w00t
[00:03] {SirRalph> on chieftain, oh well
[00:03] {nye_too> that is an important one.
[00:03] {vondrack> so the idea of having a war anywhere in the world
[00:04] {vondrack> is not what we are thrilled about
[00:04] {nye_too> have you secured agreements with any other teams regarding it?
[00:04] {vondrack> working on that, nye
[00:04] {Shiber> Well, why haven't you tried to secure an agreement with us?
[00:04] {nye_too> he's here, shiber...
[00:04] {vondrack> hell, we are just trying to!
[00:04] {vondrack> let me finish that, please
[00:05] {vondrack> so:
[00:05] {Shiber> Yes, I mean through diplomatic channels, and earlier
[00:05] {vondrack> we did not think there was the right moment
[00:05] {vondrack> and now it seems it is 12:05
[00:05] {vondrack> anyway
[00:05] {SirRalph> it is, exactly
[00:06] {vondrack> in order to help solving the problem, we are ready to seriously consider
[00:06] {vondrack> giving you something to consider the peace option
[00:06] {vondrack> our proposal which was never sent due to the quick progress of the public debate
[00:07] {vondrack> making it constantly obsolete or not properly worded
[00:07] {vondrack> was something like this:
[00:07] {vondrack> if you let Voxes be (read: flee), we would give you Theology for free - naturally on condition you would waive Sistine's
[00:08] {vondrack> I know it is not much
[00:08] {vondrack> but then there is another thing
[00:08] {nye_too> go on
[00:08] {vondrack> I believe you do feel that your plan to finish Voxes off
[00:08] {vondrack> is not what other are ready to applaud to
[00:08] {vondrack> let's forget why
[00:08] {vondrack> it is a fact
[00:09] {vondrack> so, the other benefit you would get
[00:09] {vondrack> is that Voxes would be gone
[00:09] {vondrack> and our problem
[00:09] {vondrack> we actually have a piece of land here
[00:09] {vondrack> we could give them
[00:09] {vondrack> mostly mountains, no fresh water
[00:10] {vondrack> I would still rather start in their original location than on Legos Minor
[00:10] {vondrack> but... oh, well
[00:10] {nye_too> so you mean to see them flee?
[00:10] {vondrack> as if they had any chance to choose
[00:10] {vondrack> right - you would settle for peace and let them go
[00:10] {ZargonX> it is not our decision whether they flee or not; that falls to you
[00:10] {vondrack> we would allow them to settle on Legos Minor
[00:10] {vondrack> actually
[00:10] {nye_too> do you have their blessing for this?
[00:11] {vondrack> Legos Minor is quite similar to your continent in that
[00:11] {vondrack> it is connected to Legos Major with a single tile isthmus
[00:11] {vondrack> hell, I do not care if I have their blessing!
[00:11] {vondrack> they put us into a pretty precarious situation
[00:11] {vondrack> so they either accept or...
[00:11] {vondrack> and if you mean
[00:12] {Shiber> Or ask RP for land?
[00:12] {vondrack> whether we discussed this with them
[00:12] {vondrack> then yes, we did
[00:12] {SirRalph> I still don't understand, how you do benefit if they survive?
[00:12] {nye_too> ok. did they receive it well?
[00:12] {vondrack> we were trying to settle this mess for quite some time
[00:12] {vondrack> yes, more or less well
[00:13] {vondrack> not that they would be thrilled about the idea of having to leave their homeland
[00:13] {vondrack> but they seem to realize their odds
[00:13] {nye_too> do you and they have a plan for evacuation?
[00:13] {vondrack> nothing firm yet, but working on that
[00:13] {nye_too> any idea on timeline?
[00:13] {ZargonX> not as of yet
[00:14] {nye_too> hmmm
[00:14] {vondrack> Sir Ralph: we sort of gave them our word we would
[00:14] {vondrack> help them save their lives
[00:14] {vondrack> so we are now bound to keep that promise
[00:14] {SirRalph> but if we finish them, their demise cant be blamed on you, though
[00:14] {vondrack> this is not about making an alibi
[00:14] {vondrack> besides
[00:14] {ZargonX> that is true; however, if we don't even try to discuss options, that in itself is a failing
[00:15] {nye_too> well, if push came to shove, we could not stop anyone from gifting them a city.
[00:15] {SirRalph> Vox surviving is a risk for us even on another continent
[00:15] {vondrack> as I said, Voxes have been a good trading partner for us and we ourselves have no reason to want them dead
[00:15] {vondrack> it is dubious
[00:15] {vondrack> if they can ever become a trading partner worth anything again
[00:15] {vondrack> but anyway

[notyoueither]

[00:15] {vondrack> but anyway
[00:16] {vondrack> we have considered all pros and cons
[00:16] {vondrack> and decided it would probably be best for us if we tried to settle things this way
[00:17] {vondrack> now, is there anything to talk about or shall we simply pack our sacks and get out of the room?
[00:17] {nye_too> well...
[00:17] {vondrack> I mean - what is your stance toward this idea?
[00:17] {Shiber> So you ask that we at least allow Vox time for an orderly evacuation, so that they could save as much of their population as possible?
[00:18] {nye_too> it is something that bears serious consideration by all memebrs of gs.
[00:18] {ZargonX> of course
[00:18] {nye_too> can i recap?
[00:18] {ZargonX> we would not expect you to make this decision hastily
[00:18] {SirRalph> i'm not thrilled at all letting Vox leave. They can seriously screw us by denying to trade their free tech. If Lego would guarantee, that it will be traded to us for a fair price, I might change my mind
[00:18] {nye_too> we stop the fighting between vox and us
[00:18] {nye_too> i will wait
[00:19] {nye_too> sir ralph makes a good point
[00:19] {vondrack> precisely, I am saying whether you would like to be able to get rid of your problem without further fuelling the emotions that are so abundant in the public thread
[00:19] {vondrack> we have not even spoken about the free tech
[00:19] {nye_too> of course there would be concerns from our side of the table
[00:19] {vondrack> with Voxes
[00:19] {vondrack> ok, go ahead - your concerns
[00:20] {nye_too> well, i could not list them all now, we have just opened the can, so to speak
[00:20] {nye_too> to recap the basics...
[00:20] {nye_too> the fighting between vox and gs stops
[00:20] {nye_too> lego gives gs theology
[00:21] {nye_too> vox leaves Stormia
[00:21] {nye_too> that is the basics?
[00:21] {vondrack> you waive Sistine's
[00:21] {ZargonX> plus a no-Sistene clause
[00:21] {nye_too> ahh yes.
[00:22] {nye_too> ok. concerns, off the top of my head...
[00:22] {vondrack> yes, that's the basics, I believe
[00:22] {vondrack> ok
[00:22] {nye_too> 1 vox army. most of it disbands before any cease fire goes into effect.
[00:23] {nye_too> 2 timing. what do they need to build and how long do they need
[00:23] {nye_too> 3. verification. we would need unhindered access to our new lands to verify comliance
[00:23] {nye_too> *compliance
[00:24] {nye_too> those would be concerns off the top of my head.
[00:24] {nye_too> oh, i could add...
[00:24] {nye_too> 4 harbour. the vox harbour is sold before the cease fire goes into effect
[00:24] {nye_too> No Iron for Vox before they vacate.
[00:25] {nye_too> i am sure there would be others
[00:25] {vondrack> right... all of them involve Vox in the first place, so we naturally cannot say "Yes, sir!" on the spot
[00:25] {SirRalph> I stated my concern. 2 free techs to go. Note, that I would not claim them for free, but I don't want them denied or sold for a horrible price only.
[00:25] {vondrack> but I do not consider them
[00:25] {nye_too> of course
[00:25] {vondrack> inappropriate
[00:26] {nye_too> sir ralph's concern is legitimate as well. as i said, i am sure there may be others
[00:26] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited alva_busy into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[00:26] {vondrack> Sir Ralph, I believe the free techs would not be part of the deal
[00:26] * alva_busy has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[00:26] {alva_busy>
[00:26] {alva_busy> Hi y'all
[00:27] {nye_too> vondrack. to be realistic, the hawks are going to require much convincing
[00:27] {SirRalph> I'm sorry, but in this case I won't vote for your plan
[00:27] {vondrack> pleae, both of you: understand that there is a certain line we can go to
[00:27] {nye_too> i understand, vondrack
[00:27] {vondrack> this must be a deal even for us
[00:28] {vondrack> as it is, we are waiving part of the land we have considered "ours"
[00:28] {nye_too> but understand, you are asking people who have been gravely insulted to allow the offending party to escape
[00:28] {vondrack> please, nye, I have had enough of that in the public thread... let's speak business
[00:29] {nye_too> i would like to, vondrack
[00:29] {nye_too> but i am letting you know realisitcally, what the situation within gs is.
[00:30] {ZargonX> understood
[00:30] {ZargonX> I know there are strong feelings around this issue, and they will not be resolved simply
[00:30] {nye_too> yes, zargon. you are accurate
[00:31] {vondrack> if you believe feelings are stuff to be traded, then keep in mind the sentiment expressed by many in the public thread
[00:31] {SirRalph> I would also like to talk business. If Lego adds a guarantee, that the free techs will be traded to GS, if not by Vox, so by Lego itself (Note: traded, not gifted!), I rest my case and vote dove. If not, not.
[00:32] {vondrack> by agreeing to peace, you gain a lot in the "eyes of the world", to put it poetically
[00:32] {ZargonX> I can only speak for myself, and not my team, but I believe a deal could be reached
[00:32] {ZargonX> it would require discussion, of course, but that is for a future date
[00:32] {nye_too> and by finishing vox we could conceivably gain leo's and the sistine.
[00:32] {ZargonX> Again, speaking only for myself, I do consider GS an "enemy"
[00:33] {vondrack> ??????
[00:33] {vondrack> Zargon!
[00:33] {nye_too> typo, i suspect
[00:33] {SirRalph> interesting
[00:33] {ZargonX> do not!
[00:33] {ZargonX> sorry!
[00:33] {ZargonX> that was a typo
[00:33] * vondrack sighs in relief
[00:33] {ZargonX> phew... now that's a serious diplomatic typo to make :P
[00:33] {vondrack> that would be quite a surprise...
[00:33] {ZargonX> allow me to restate:
[00:34] {ZargonX> I do not consider GS an enemy
[00:34] {SirRalph> granted
[00:34] {ZargonX> at the moment, there is a situation with differing viewpoints, but one that I feel can be worked through
[00:34] {vondrack> rereading what Sir Ralph said: I think trading the techs would not be a problem
[00:34] {vondrack> for some reason I assumed he was talking abour getting them for free - sorry
[00:35] {nye_too> understood.
[00:35] {vondrack> re: Sistine's and Leo's
[00:35] {ZargonX> excuse me, brb
[00:35] {vondrack> that assumes you would have Theology and Invention
[00:35] {nye_too> yes. it would.
[00:35] {vondrack> researching Thelogy would put you further behind
[00:36] {vondrack> since you would be wasting beakers on something
[00:36] {vondrack> others are going to get from us
[00:36] {vondrack> OTOH
[00:36] {nye_too> of course, what we are discussing are hypotheticals
[00:36] {vondrack> if you get Theo
[00:36] {vondrack> you can start on, say, Printing press
[00:36] {vondrack> and get back into the race
[00:36] {nye_too> that poses a problem as well.
[00:37] {vondrack> problem?
[00:37] {nye_too> we are under the impression that we have been the subject of an embargo.
[00:37] {nye_too> that embargo has damaged our position.
[00:38] {vondrack> as far as I know there was no embargo put in effect
[00:38] {vondrack> can speak for Lego only though
[00:38] {nye_too> i am sure that nathan will have some ideas on what would need to be done to address that
[00:38] {nye_too> it has been reported to us. we do not require confirmation or denial
[00:38] {vondrack> ok, let me rephrase: Legoland has never agreed to embargo you
[00:39] {vondrack> the fact we did not trade for Feudalism/Theology was that the deal was not fine
[00:39] {vondrack> we did not need Feu for quite some time
[00:39] {vondrack> and then we simply "got it"
[00:40] {SirRalph> Hmmm. Do we need Theology?
[00:40] {vondrack> sorry if this did harm to you, but there was no evil intention
[00:40] {nye_too> we will consider what you have said.
[00:40] {vondrack> not sure, Sir Ralph - you must know
[00:40] {nye_too> at this point, i am anticipating things that may be brought up.
[00:41] {vondrack> yes?
[00:41] {nye_too> that is all. i mentioned the embargo, bacause i am sure it will brought up.
[00:41] {vondrack> aha
[00:41] {vondrack> that's something I have really nothing to comment on
[00:42] {vondrack> as I said - we never joind any embargo against you
[00:42] {vondrack> and I believe I can even say
[00:42] {nye_too> yes. well. vox is the subject of the excercise.
[00:42] {nye_too> not just lego
[00:42] {vondrack> we have never heard of one being put in effect
[00:42] {vondrack> but then, even we may not know everything
[00:43] {nye_too> let's leave that alone. as i said, we do not need confirmation or denial
[00:43] {vondrack> alright
[00:44] {Shiber> So, to recap, what is Lego offering GS in exchange for allowing Vox to flee?
[00:44] {vondrack> nye have done a precise recap already
[00:44] {vondrack> 1) you get Theology
[00:44] {nye_too> with the addition of us renouncing sistine
[00:44] {vondrack> yes
[00:45] {vondrack> 2) you get rid of the Voxian PR-problem
[00:45] {vondrack> other issues would be brought up by you
[00:45] {Shiber> What are the chances of article 2's realization?
[00:45] {Shiber> I suspect that most teams were pro-peace because it weakens us
[00:45] {nye_too> slim to none, i'd say
[00:45] {Shiber> But in an evacuation agreement, we still get Vox's territory
[00:46] {nye_too> that may well pose a problem in it's own right
[00:46] {vondrack> heh, but insisted on "wishing peace"
[00:46] {vondrack> so you get the upper hand now
[00:46] {Shiber> Noone would show up to applaud any agreement we sign with Vox, I'm sure. Not even if it's the one that Beta proposed in his thread.
[00:47] {vondrack> guys, there is only so much we can do to help your PR-position
[00:47] {Sharpe> what status is the war at currently anyway?
[00:47] {nye_too> you mean the one that was discussed between beta and i a month ago, and that he did not propose until Inchon?
[00:47] {Shiber> Yes, lol
[00:47] {vondrack> sorry - I have no idea what you are now talking about
[00:48] {nye_too> the peace that beta proposed was discussed between he and i a month or more ago.
[00:48] {vondrack> wow, time is flying...
[00:48] {nye_too> vox sat on it and sat on it, as the tide turns
[00:48] {nye_too> then, once we have them by the ... they propose it even though we already had most all of hat was in it.
[00:49] {nye_too> i thought perhaps other teams would be interested in that
[00:49] {vondrack> yeah... I have always thought GS could use a PR-guy...
[00:50] {SirRalph> maybe
[00:50] {nye_too> actually, i think the game could use a lot less people speaking weasel words.
[00:50] {vondrack> LoL
[00:50] {vondrack> what do we do about Togas then?
[00:50] {nye_too> heh
[00:50] {Sharpe> another typo?
[00:51] {vondrack> LoL
[00:51] {nye_too> he is fine. i hold no grudge against him. however, some of the methods are bound to raise feelings
[00:51] {vondrack> my words
[00:51] {nye_too> how could they not?
[00:51] {vondrack> I actually often admire how he struggles with his very nature
[00:51] {vondrack> yeah, right...
[00:52] {nye_too> actually, you are not innacurate
[00:52] {vondrack> does that mean I hit the nail on the head?
[00:52] {nye_too> he is very intelligent, but that temper.
[00:52] {vondrack> right
[00:53] {alva_busy> sounds familiar
[00:53] {nye_too> hehe
[00:53] {SirRalph> I'm not very good at chit-chatting. Have we finished the "official" part of the meeting?
[00:53] {nye_too> i beleive so
[00:53] {vondrack> me too
[00:53] {vondrack> Sir Ralph - it can be learnt!
[00:53] {vondrack> I used to be like you, I guess...
[00:54] {vondrack> chit-chatting = waste of time
[00:54] {SirRalph> well, vondrack, I am an IRC veteran, but with the years I evaluate my spare time some higher
[00:54] -apolyton.net:@#shibers-house-of-pleasure- Shiber invited Aeson into channel #shibers-house-of-pleasure.
[00:54] {SirRalph> thanks for the chat. good night (well, or evening for that matter)
[00:55] {vondrack> I believe I perfectly know what you are talking about
[00:55] {nye_too> g'night
[00:55] {vondrack> good night
[00:55] {alva_busy> night SR
[00:55] {Shiber> night everyone
[00:55] {nye_too> take care
[00:55] {Shiber> i'm off myself
[00:55] {SirRalph> bye
[00:55] {Shiber> it's terribly late
[00:55] * SirRalph has quit IRC (Quit: warp 1.0: Nemo me impune lacessit)
[00:55] {vondrack> night, everybody!
[00:55] {alva_busy> see you Shiber
[00:55] {Shiber> see you everyone
[00:55] {ZargonX> 'night!
[00:55] {nye_too> g'night vondrack. it was a pleasure.
[00:55] * Aeson has joined #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[00:55] {vondrack>
[00:55] * Shiber has quit IRC (Quit: Good night)
[00:55] {vondrack> as usually, nye
[00:55] {ZargonX> Aeson arrives as the party ends
[00:55] {nye_too>
[00:56] {vondrack> hello, Aeson!
[00:56] {Aeson> seems to always be the case
[00:56] {Aeson> hello
[00:56] {vondrack> the guests are just leaving...
[00:56] {alva_busy> hey Aeson
[00:56] {nye_too> hail orange
[00:56] {Sharpe> we can summarize yet again I suppose
[00:56] {alva_busy> yep, knew HE was coming
[00:56] {nye_too> brb
[00:56] {Aeson> I can wait for the log, thanks for the offer though Sharpe
[00:56] {vondrack> mostly annoyed by the serious discussion degenerating into a mere chit-chat...
[00:56] {vondrack>
[00:57] {alva_busy> nothing new there then
[00:57] {Sharpe> lol, and how much percent is chit-chat in lego chat rooms?
[00:57] {Sharpe>
[00:57] {vondrack> is there any non-chit-chat there?
[00:57] {ZargonX> 85%
[00:57] {ZargonX> I did a calculation
[00:58] {vondrack> Aeson - will you ever consider rejoining the ISDG Team?
[00:58] {Sharpe> thought it was closer to 90% myself ...
[00:58] {alva_busy> say, I got a very short summary from Shiber, but I guess it wasn't complete. Was Engineering mentioned at any time?
[00:58] {vondrack> Engineering?
[00:58] {vondrack> nope
[00:58] {alva_busy> ah, ok
[00:58] {Sharpe> actually what is GS researching ATM?
[00:58] {alva_busy> sorry, my mistake
[00:59] {Aeson> I don't think I'll be rejoining the ISDG
[00:59] {alva_busy> hum, what has NEY or SR told you???
[00:59] {alva_busy>
[00:59] {vondrack>
[00:59] {vondrack> sorry to hear that
[01:00] {Aeson> Not like there'd be anything left to do by the time I could... you guys should have won by then right?
[01:00] {vondrack> LoL
[01:01] {vondrack> I believe there will always be something left
[01:01] {ZargonX> plenty going on right now...
[01:02] {Aeson> It woudl be just like this chat... I join and everyone leaves... haha
[01:02] {nye_too> hehe
[01:02] {vondrack> LoL
[01:02] {ZargonX> heh, that would solve some of our issues if everyone else left
[01:02] {vondrack> LoL!
[01:02] {alva_busy> hey, I've been banned
[01:02] {nye_too> what?
[01:02] {ZargonX> from what?
[01:03] {Aeson> from where?
[01:03] {alva_busy> upload rule
[01:03] {vondrack> actually, Aeson, it's that the Consuls (whoever is that) need more people like you
[01:03] {alva_busy> not uploading files
[01:03] {alva_busy> related to the games site covers
[01:03] {nye_too> what did you upload?
[01:03] {vondrack> and they need some other better leave
[01:03] {vondrack> *others
[01:03] {alva_busy> Apparantly Dan has banned many people
[01:04] {nye_too> what did he ban you for?
[01:04] {Aeson> I honestly don't think it would be right for me to join again. I'm now officially an admin over at CFC so am privy to too many details of the goings on in their forums whether I like it or not.
[01:04] {vondrack> aha, I see
[01:04] {nye_too> ahh. too bad, Aeson
[01:04] {alva_busy> pff, Iil go check what I uploaded
[01:04] {nye_too> you are missed already
[01:05] {alva_busy> I can still post at the private forums though, another feature
[01:05] {nye_too> alva, pm me the details if you would.
[01:05] {alva_busy> ok
[01:06] {nye_too> i am off very soon. are we done?
[01:06] {alva_busy> I'll send you the mail I got
[01:06] {nye_too> ok
[01:07] {nye_too> bye everyone. i fget to go home now.
[01:07] {Sharpe> bye
[01:07] * nye_too has left #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[01:07] {vondrack> bye
[01:07] {vondrack> oops, missed it
[01:08] {Aeson> I'll be going now too. Hopefully the next one I can show up much later and GS and Lego can have a more extended conversation.
[01:09] {Aeson> bye
[01:09] * Aeson has quit IRC (Quit: )
[01:10] {Sharpe> guess I had better go too. Cya
[01:10] * Sharpe has left #shibers-house-of-pleasure
[01:21] * ZargonX has quit IRC (Quit: )
[01:21] {vondrack> I am going, too
[01:21] {vondrack> bye
Session Close: Sun Jun 15 01:21:56 2003

[notyoueither]

PM to vondrack:

Hello again.

I feel like a goof. I forgot to note that the mIRC client I was using was not logging. Doh! Sounds just like my l33t skillz, yes?

Could you provide me with a log of the chat? It would be much appreciated. We can wait for someone else who was around to be back, but time may be a critical element in these matters.

notyoueither@hotmail.com if you have it handy. Thanks.

Oh, one other thing. We are aware that there are forces other than those of Vox or GS on their way to the Isle of Stormia. Their landing would be very problematic for these negotiations. Might even derail them entirely. Could Lego put the word out among other nations to whomever may control these mercenaries that having their minions land would be counterproductive? I will try, but my contacts are not well developed, and time may be an issue.

PS. I was a dove. I am inclined to help these negotiations along. If there is anything you can do to help, please let me know.

[notyoueither]

PM received from vondrack:

Hi, nye!

Finished reading the news. I must admit that the public announcement of the StormHawk party is definitely the way to go on with our negotiations...

I would have appreciated if we received at least some response to our proposal before your team pushes for the kill publicly... or, is this just an initiative of a small GS member group?

We were honest in our offer and sincerely hoped you would consider it. Now, is this still an option or shall we consider the proposal officially rejected?

vondrack

P.S.: I will do my best to stop hostilities on Estonia/Stormia. Unfortunately, I have no control over other teams - but I have expressly demanded in my email to Beta (sent after our chat) that Vox stop any hostilities and sit on the save. I need some time to sort this out.

[notyoueither]

Sent to vondrack:

Hi, vondrack.

This is just me speaking. No others from GS have seen this, nor could they endorse it, for obvious reasons.

Please reread that thread. Theseus is trying to defuse emotions for the good of Apolyton. You may not consider things from Beta's threads to be very serious, but please try to place yourself in the shoes of members of the team being the target of them. Honestly, this game has gone off the rails in some respects and several members of GS are considering resigning because it is not fun to face that crap on a recurring basis. It was mildly fun to start with over a month ago, but... Several members of GS have a high sense of honour, and they feel that honour sullied by Beta's continuous assaults on the truth about us and our actions. Can you and Lego understand that? If you cannot, then you will never understand GS.

Yes, Theseus is using the device of the StormHawks, but stay tuned, the peace marches start soon. It is intended to be fun. Please join in.

No, the topics of the chat have not been rejected. No one else has been around for long enough to digest that chat. Please stay tuned.

[DeepO]

just send a response to Mss' PM asking for a chat (I was out the rest of this weekend, so I missed that a chat had already taken place), sending my available times, and saying that I was looking forward to chat. This is the response (and my response to it):

Woops... sorry about that. I just came in, noticed I had a PM, and responded... only now am I browsing the forum. I haven't read the log yet.

Sorry to be so badly informed, I really wish I had more time to spend. If possible, I'd like to attend next chat, though, although I fully agree that my team does not have to wait on me with the current busy period I'm going through.

Looking forward to speak to you soon,
DeepO

DeepO,

As I'm sure you are already aware, we had a somewhat formal chat with several members of your team yesterday. However, I'm sure with events unfolding in various ways, more chats would be welcome. I am usually available weeknights from 5 AM GMT to 7 AM GMT, as well as some weekdays from 7 PM GMT to 10 PM GMT. I look forward to speaking more with the fine people of Gathering Storm!

Thanks,
ZargonX

[DeepO]

Vondrack,
redstar1,
ZargonX,
Arrian,

Hello everyone, I hope everything is fine in Legoland. It has been a while since you last received a message from me, and I regret I wasn't able to join the last couple of chats (I've read the logs, of course). But, this is about to change back I hope, I enjoyed the (kind of) regular chats we had before the Voxian war started, and would like to get into that habit again.

There are a couple of points I'd like to address:

As it became clear I was not able to spend enough time on our game anymore, and lack of communication was certainly not doing GS any good on the diplomatic front, reinforcement to the Lego ambassador team was found. Arrian will be our vice-ambassador, I'm sure you can contact him with any worries in case I proof to be unavailable. Of course, contact with other members remains possible (e.g. nye), but this should make our relation more fluent... we still consider Lego as one of the main parties we want to trade with.

Further, the silence of the past months was intentional, and although I posted this before I shut up, I hope you also see this in light of our war, and do not see it as a insult of any kind to you. As a team policy, it was decided the moment Vox attacked us that we would stop communicating with any other team unless we really had something to sell / needed to get. In hindsight, that was not the best decision (seeing our current isolation), and perhaps it would have been better if I explained our changed policy to you better. My apologies for that.

That said, we would love to get the regular chats going again, like we had before all of this started. I couldn't make it yesterday (we had them at Sundays around 21 GMT, IIRC), but if any of you can find some time tonight, I would certainly like to join for some talk. We still have a couple of things to discuss... I hope that my schedule will allow me to keep this up, but otherwise Arrian should be available around the same time, if he ever succeeds in installing mIRC

Then, onto business. It looks like we are going to ratify the Voxodus plan, and I wonder how far you're up to date on the progress here. I'd also like to chat to see your view on this... I appreciate the mediator role Vondrack played in this war, however quite a number of questions remain unanswered. If interested, I would also like to give you more insight in our PoV, even if at the moment it seems to be rather calm in our forum.

You have already heared this in chat, but to make things a bit more official: We'd like to offer you our WM. I know you are not going to trade your WM for it, however seeing that for us the need for secrecy has dropped, we want to open up our map. Do you have anything you want to offer in return?

And lastly (note this has not been confirmed, nor tested!): We know you have a (urgent) need for luxuries. There may be a possibility for us to trade these to you... you know we've build the lighthouse, and AFAIK that makes trades over sea tiles possible, even before Astronomy. But, there have to be a couple of other things present: a harbor on both sides, a visible trade route, etc. We're currently building on harbors, so in case you would agree to purchase our WM, and have a visible harbor on your own, we may be able to trade luxuries to you (we have 2 of them). Again, this is not confirmed, I asked for confirmation a couple of times in our forum, but nobody seems to know the definate answer to this. And currently, very few people seem to have time to test this. So... you might want to find out for yourselves, I'm sorry I can't do more then offer the possibility.

If you could get back to me with possible chat times, it would be great.

Kind regards,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Ah, no problem on being brief... I like it when people are to the point.

I'm going to find myself some dinner, so in about an hour would be superb for me too I'll see if I can find Arrian to join us (most likely this would be a bit too early for him)

DeepO

Hello, DeepO!

Sorry to respond so briefly - doing something else right now. I should be available for the most part of this evening, starting in about an hour or so... I will try hanging out in the main Poly chatroom, so if you happen to drop in, feel free to open a private channel. I would sure appreciate a chat with you, discussing whatever has been or is going on.

Cheers,
vondrack

[DeepO]

Session Start: Mon Jun 23 22:37:35 2003
[22:37] } Successfully joined #boemboem at 10:37pm
[22:37] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0
[22:37] } Channel Modes: +
[22:37] } Created on Monday, June 23rd, 2003 at 10:43pm
[22:38] [10:38pm] DeepO sets mode: +i
[22:38] [10:38pm] DeepO sets mode: +p
[22:39] *** Retrieving #boemboem info...
[22:39] [10:39pm] DeepO sets mode: +s
[22:39] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User Aeson has been invited to: #boemboem
[22:39] [10:39pm] *apolyton.net(@#boemboem)* DeepO invited Aeson into channel #boemboem.
[22:40] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User vondrack has been invited to: #boemboem
[22:40] [10:40pm] *apolyton.net(@#boemboem)* DeepO invited vondrack into channel #boemboem.
[22:40] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User redstar1 has been invited to: #boemboem
[22:40] [10:40pm] *apolyton.net(@#boemboem)* DeepO invited redstar1 into channel #boemboem.
[22:40] [10:40pm] Aeson (~aeson@dpc6682040106.direcpc.com) has joined. «2 people»
[22:40] {DeepO} hi there
[22:40] [10:40pm] {Aeson} Hello
[22:40] {DeepO} still typing PMs
[22:40] -} *vondrack* care to chat? use the invite I sent you...
[22:41] -} *redstar1* care to chat? use the invite I sent you...
[22:41] {DeepO} right
[22:41] {DeepO} I invited redstar1 and vondrack, are any of the other legos here?
[22:42] [10:42pm] {Aeson} not sure
[22:42] {DeepO} let's wait then
[22:42] [10:42pm] {Aeson} I'm trying to register my nick, but it doesn't like my email addresses
[22:42] {DeepO} registring?
[22:42] {DeepO} has that changed lately
[22:42] {DeepO} ?
[22:43] [10:43pm] {Aeson} I don't think so, just never registered
[22:43] {DeepO} ah, ok
[22:43] [10:43pm] {Aeson} last time I tried the nickserv server was down
[22:43] {DeepO} then mine should still work
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Aeson} NickServ- E-mail addresses must be in the form username@hostname. You may not use colors, bold, underline, or reverse, or any of these characters: , : ; | \ " ( ) { } [ ]
[22:44] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User vondrack has been invited to: #boemboem
[22:44] [10:44pm] *apolyton.net(@#boemboem)* DeepO invited vondrack into channel #boemboem.
[22:44] [10:44pm] {Aeson} how does aeson@yahoo.com not work?
[22:44] [10:44pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «3 people»
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} hello!
[22:44] {DeepO} erhm... can't help you there Aeson
[22:44] {DeepO} hello von
[22:44] {DeepO} I invited redstar1
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} boemboem? what's that??
[22:44] {DeepO} but haven't heared from him. Should we wait?
[22:45] [10:45pm] {Aeson} hello vondrack
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} nope - he is most probably not really online
[22:45] {DeepO} euh... boemboem is part of a governmental awareness campaign
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} hello, Aeson!
[22:45] {DeepO} in which meaning it is meant that you should first talk, and only after have sex
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} redstar1 hangs out in the Lego chatroom all the time (is permanently connected through ADSL)
[22:45] {DeepO} ah, ok
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} LoL
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} will remember that!
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} though I am not really into the talking part...
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} nm
[22:46] {DeepO} completely it would be "eerst blabla, dan boemboem"
[22:46] {DeepO} one sec
[22:47] {DeepO} sorry about that...
[22:47] {DeepO} Aeson, if you hear from nye, could you invite him too?
[22:47] {DeepO} ah, and I'll op you both
[22:47] [10:47pm] DeepO sets mode: +o Aeson
[22:47] [10:47pm] DeepO sets mode: +o vondrack
[22:47] [10:47pm] {@vondrack} thanks, finally feeling equal
[22:48] {DeepO} should we get Trip in here as well?
[22:48] [10:48pm] {@vondrack} I do not think it is necessary
[22:48] {DeepO} k
[22:48] [10:48pm] {@vondrack} he can read logs in our forum
[22:48] {DeepO} right
[22:49] {DeepO} anyone else we want to wait for?
[22:49] [10:49pm] {@vondrack} not from our side, noone else seems to be online & available for chat
[22:49] {DeepO} ok, let's start then
[22:49] [10:49pm] {@vondrack} k
[22:49] {DeepO} first of all, I've got a little agenda
[22:49] {DeepO} 1. Vox
[22:49] {DeepO} 2. WM
[22:49] {DeepO} 3. possible lux trade
[22:49] {DeepO} anything else?
[22:50] [10:50pm] {@vondrack} nothing I can think of
[22:50] {DeepO} so 1.
[22:50] {DeepO} we have sent, about 15 minutes ago, our ratified proposal
[22:50] {DeepO} so it seems you will be enjoying new neighbours
[22:50] [10:50pm] {@vondrack} yep, read about it in the public forum
[22:50] [10:50pm] {@vondrack}
[22:50] {DeepO} I hope you will like that
[22:51] {DeepO} public forum? damn, I'm not up to date
[22:51] [10:51pm] {@vondrack} yes, it is the solution we have been preferring for some time
[22:51] {DeepO} well, anyway, I was thinking on what you said in the previous chat
[22:51] [10:51pm] {@vondrack} yes?
[22:51] {DeepO} that you would agree to give us Theo
[22:51] {DeepO} with a no-wonder clause
[22:51] {DeepO} do you still feel like that?
[22:52] [10:52pm] {@vondrack} yes, of course
[22:52] {DeepO} (we've been assuming it would go through, however no offocial communication has been sent)
[22:52] {DeepO} care to put this in a PM after the chat?
[22:52] [10:52pm] {@vondrack} no problem, will send it
[22:52] {DeepO} it would make my life as ambassador a lot easier
[22:52] {DeepO} Thanks a lot!
[22:52] {DeepO} so... coiuld I ask you what your intentions are with them?
[22:53] {DeepO} I mean, do you envision them as game-long partners?
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} with the peace treaty signed, the whole Theo "deal" will be very easy to formulate
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} re: Vox
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} yes, in a way
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} let me tell you something about their "new home"
[22:53] {DeepO} k
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} Legos Minor - that is where they will end up
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@vondrack} is a mountainous peninsula
[22:54] [10:54pm] {@vondrack} North of our "mainland" (Legos Major)
[22:54] [10:54pm] {@vondrack} connected with a single-tile isthmus
[22:54] {DeepO} I know... w9ithout water
[22:54] {DeepO} better protect it
[22:54] [10:54pm] {@vondrack} yes - I remember now, I told you already
[22:54] {DeepO} np
[22:54] {DeepO} I just reread the log ...
[22:55] {DeepO} the thing is, we wonder in which sense they will be useful for you
[22:55] [10:55pm] {@vondrack} so - with the terrain there, they will not really be able to become a military power to be considered
[22:55] [10:55pm] {@vondrack} ever
[22:55] [10:55pm] {@vondrack} well
[22:55] {DeepO} we kind of suspect you're afraid to be left out on Bob
[22:55] {DeepO} in which case, a partner could be very good
[22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} not sure how much I am allowed to disclose, but let me put it this way:
[22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} we had several reasons to prefer that "peace" and to not mind Voxes "hopping" to Legos Minor
[22:56] [10:56pm] {@vondrack} first: the problem with Great Leaders
[22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} second: the fact that you and them were wasting resources
[22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} actually making Bobians stronger
[22:57] {DeepO} we certainly were
[22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} Bobians (GoW & ND) are now getting close to their "peak times"
[22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} so, we were not that excited about the whole thing
[22:57] [10:57pm] {@vondrack} honestly
[22:57] {DeepO} I can imagine
[22:58] {DeepO} but still, it seems quite a move
[22:58] {DeepO} even for peacelovers
[22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} we did not really mind you having this small "problem" with Voxes
[22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} but it got too far
[22:58] {DeepO} bah, npp
[22:58] {DeepO} *np
[22:58] {DeepO} we lost considerably in this war
[22:58] {DeepO} but as there was no way to avoid it
[22:58] [10:58pm] {@vondrack} then - and I hope I am not going too far disclosing this
[22:59] {DeepO} and Vox did not realize how close to extinction it was (and thus did not settle for peace when we first proposed them
[22:59] {DeepO} we had little option left
[22:59] {DeepO} please tell...
[22:59] [10:59pm] {@vondrack} we sort of hope that Voxes will become our "guarantee" or "ally" against possible tech embargoes from Bobians
[22:59] [10:59pm] {@vondrack} having someone always trading with you
[22:59] {DeepO} it could backfire though
[23:00] {DeepO} which is what we find strange
[23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} makes it more difficult for other to block your reserach by not trading key techs
[23:00] {DeepO} I mean, we certainly can see Bob embargoing us
[23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} sure it can backfire
[23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} hell, what can't?
[23:00] {DeepO} true
[23:00] {DeepO} but the thing is, you have kind of a guarantee
[23:00] [11:00pm] {@vondrack} hopefully
[23:00] {DeepO} however, Bob will not think of this lightly
[23:01] {DeepO} and, I'm sure it is all part of the diplo game
[23:01] {DeepO} but there has been a lot more talk lately about Lego being the ones to watch
[23:01] [11:01pm] {@vondrack} we have sent our own treaty draft to Voxes today, outlining the future coexistence of our two teams
[23:01] {DeepO} ah, ok
[23:01] {DeepO} please discuss how much you can disclose of that to us
[23:02] {DeepO} we hold no ill feelings towards Vox
[23:02] [11:02pm] {@vondrack} there is not much into it (the draft), mostly just the research cooperation
[23:02] {DeepO} and would certainly prefer to trade with them in the future
[23:02] {DeepO} and, if I may say so, we trust you more then them
[23:02] {DeepO} for the moment at least
[23:02] [11:02pm] {@vondrack} the rest is just technical aspects, like gifting them a city on Legos Minor now etc.
[23:02] {DeepO} ok
[23:03] {DeepO} as long as you don't start embargoing us, I'm sure we all can get along fine
[23:03] [11:03pm] {@vondrack} no intentions to embargo you
[23:03] {DeepO} maybe it's time to get onto point 2.
[23:03] {DeepO} ah, and thanks on the intentions
[23:03] [11:03pm] {@vondrack} and frankly - we will push Voxes to be "nice guys", too
[23:04] {DeepO} I don't think it will come to that
[23:04] {DeepO} please do
[23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} since otherwise, they will become more of a liability than an asset to us
[23:04] {DeepO} well, for the moment, we want Vox to grow again
[23:04] {DeepO} very true
[23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} us, too
[23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} so we are going to help them out in the beginning
[23:04] [11:04pm] {@vondrack} starting with that city now
[23:04] {DeepO} which is why it would probably be the best idea if we resettle them (with planning)
[23:05] {DeepO} how many cities do you see them get, in the next 20 turns?
[23:05] {DeepO} I mean, we know they technically could grow to 6 or 7
[23:05] {DeepO} buut don't know if any arrangements were made
[23:05] [11:05pm] {@vondrack} so far, we have agreed on gifting them their new capital
[23:05] [11:05pm] {@vondrack} and I believe
[23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} they are sending some settlers in galleys
[23:06] {DeepO} nah, not if we can help it
[23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} that should arrive in ~16 turns or so
[23:06] {DeepO} they don't need any galleys at all
[23:06] {DeepO} in case you cooperate
[23:06] [11:06pm] {@vondrack} ?
[23:06] {DeepO} and a lot will depend on the real situation
[23:07] {DeepO} well, we can starve / disband all their cities to size 1
[23:07] {DeepO} and if, at that moment, their new captial is size 2
[23:07] {DeepO} it should be no problem for them to move all their forces into their last city
[23:07] {DeepO} and gift it to us
[23:07] {DeepO} in which case all units get teleported to their only remaining city
[23:07] [11:07pm] {@vondrack} ah, that's smart
[23:08] {DeepO} (correction: they should disband their last city)
[23:08] [11:08pm] {@vondrack} should be doable, I believe
[23:08] {DeepO} bah, we've been thining on this for a while now
[23:08] {DeepO} it certainly would be doable
[23:08] {DeepO} we've got a turn by turn plan ready
[23:08] {DeepO} (courtesy of Aeson, our master planner)
[23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} well, their new capital will be founded
[23:09] [11:09pm] {@Aeson} ack... not a solid turn by turn plan, as we don't know the exact situation in the cities
[23:09] {DeepO} so that's not the problem, but it would mean a considerable force next to your border very soon
[23:09] {DeepO} and the new capital needs to grow to size 2 at least
[23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} that's not a problem
[23:09] [11:09pm] {@vondrack} just a sec
[23:09] {DeepO} k
[23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} if this turn is Turn T
[23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} then on Turn T+5 or T+6 (depends on the location they choose)
[23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} the capital will be founded
[23:10] [11:10pm] {@vondrack} now the good news
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} we are bringing in a worker along
[23:11] {DeepO} we were hoping for this... that you already had a settler kind of in place. Plus the worker is superb!
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} and will be joining him to the city immediately
[23:11] {DeepO} great
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} it was originally meant to allow a spear poprush
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} but I can see
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@vondrack} we have a different way now
[23:12] {DeepO} we should definately coordinate our plans... Aeson is going to have fun the following days
[23:12] [11:12pm] {@vondrack} the spear poprush was necessary (LOTS of barbs there - almost impossible to protect a garrisonless city from outside)
[23:12] {DeepO} aha... so the turn the city gets gifted, it should become the capital
[23:12] {DeepO} that's going to be tricky to perform
[23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} question: how fast do you think the Voxians can be ready for the Big Hop?
[23:13] {DeepO} Aeson?
[23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} we can delay its foundation
[23:13] [11:13pm] {@Aeson} If I might mention something, Vox seems far too infatuated with takign their troops with them. Coming from us it sounds bad, but it really would be in their best interests long term (20 turns from now and till the end of the game) for them to mostly diband their units to build more Settlers
[23:13] {DeepO} true
[23:13] [11:13pm] {@vondrack} agreed
[23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} If Lego could convince Vox that a smaller army will cost less to support and allow faster growth, it would help things greatly
[23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} Otherwise Vox is going to be running a 20gpt deficit for a while
[23:14] {DeepO} yeah...
[23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} Vox's main stack is 5 turns from Dissidentville
[23:14] {DeepO} and we're not going to give them cash
[23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} they are going to use Dissidentvile to jump them back to the core
[23:14] [11:14pm] {@vondrack} right
[23:14] [11:14pm] redstar1 (d@host81-132-197-183.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «4 people»
[23:14] {DeepO} well, they can do it partly by boat
[23:14] [11:14pm] {@vondrack} interesting concept, this jumping...
[23:14] {DeepO} hi redstar1!
[23:14] [11:14pm] {@Aeson} The first round of pop liquidation should happen abou the same time
[23:15] [11:15pm] {@Aeson} then 5 more turns or so to get the rest liquidated
[23:15] [11:15pm] {redstar1} hi guys
[23:15] {DeepO} I agree
[23:15] {DeepO} but most definately they need some guidance here
[23:15] [11:15pm] {@Aeson} we need 3 turns to guarantee the teleportation to work
[23:15] {DeepO} and it could mean that not all of their pop gets transferred
[23:15] [11:15pm] {@Aeson} so it would happen in 13 turns at the earliest I think
[23:16] {DeepO} okay, let's keep that as an estimate for now
[23:16] {DeepO} Von, are you protecting that settler well enough?
[23:16] {DeepO} I mean, could you delay up until then without risk?
[23:16] [11:16pm] {@Aeson} hello redstar1
[23:16] [11:16pm] {@vondrack} sword on mountains escort
[23:16] [11:16pm] DeepO sets mode: +o redstar1
[23:16] [11:16pm] {@vondrack} we could delay, but I do not think it would be necessary
[23:17] {DeepO} okay... those should hold