DIPLO: Legoland diplomatic contact LOG

[DeepO]

Redstar1,

That's great news! We will not tell anyone on your luck with construction, rest assured, however I hope you're aware that next turn, at least a few teams will know that someone has construction already. The cost of the tech decreases, and if you're watching, it is very easy to see how many teams you know have a tech already. At least RP and ND will figure it out once they get the save.

Chat: that may be best, not only because it talks a lot smoother, but also because we should get things organised here. I'll be away from Wednesday till Friday, and can't be reached in between, so would it be possible to schedule a chat this evening, or perhaps best tomorrow evening? I'll see if I can round up some interested people on my side... What about tomorrow at 8pm GMT?

DeepO

DeepO,

Greetings again from Legoland! We have some news which may alter our trades a bit...

Firstly, do not be concerned about our deal with ND, it was too late to revoke but we have worked some alternative out with them that leaves both of us satisfied

As for our news:

While returning from a scouting mission, one of our warriors stumbled across a lost tribe, from whom we learned the secrets of Construction! We seem to have had very intelligent lost tribes! We would appreciate it if you kept news of our good fortune quiet for now.

Now that we have Construction we are prepared to offer you a deal of Currency+Construction for Republic. We have a more detailed plan however for inter-trades between teams that should see us all go Medieval roughly at the same time. Would you be interested in arranging an IRC chat to discuss the fine print and how our proposal affects yourselves and the other teams involved?

Would it be possible for you to give us an ETA on Republic?

Talk soon

Redstar1

[DeepO]

BTW, I forgot to tell you... In the ideal case we should get republic in turn 82, but so far we were not very lucky with this ideal case. It would probably be best to keep turn 84 in mind when planning...

DeepO

[DeepO]

Fine by me. Any preference on where to meet?

DeepO,

8pm GMT today would be great, can you confirm?

Redstar1

[DeepO]

Session Start: Tue Mar 18 20:45:49 2003
Session Ident: #LeGS
[20:45] * Now talking in #LeGS
[20:45] * Retrieving #LeGS info...
[20:46] * vondrack sets mode: +k BrainStorm
[20:47] * redstar1 has joined #legs
[20:52] * vondrack sets mode: +o redstar1
[20:54] * zeit has joined #legs
[20:55] {redstar1} hey
[20:55] {zeit} hey there, does DeepO know we're here?
[20:55] {vondrack} hello!
[20:55] * vondrack sets mode: +o zeit
[20:55] {redstar1} i don't know
[20:55] {zeit} wow, i've been opped
[20:56] {vondrack} my pleasure
[20:56] {zeit} i'll try to make contact with him, after all, he's the ambassador..
[20:56] {redstar1} hehe
[20:58] {zeit} so, how did you fare in your trades with the Bobians, got what you came for?
[21:00] {redstar1} do you know the trade that was proposed to deepo?
[21:00] {zeit} yes of course, i do keep myself updated, as the Chief Diplomat...
[21:00] {zeit} Sorry for not represnting myself beforehand
[21:00] {redstar1} hehe
[21:01] {redstar1} no problem
[21:01] * DeepO has joined #legs
[21:01] {redstar1} vondrack as you know is president
[21:01] {DeepO} hi all!
[21:01] {zeit} Welcome!
[21:01] {DeepO} did I miss much?
[21:01] {redstar1} quantum mechani is ambassador and he should be along shortly
[21:01] {redstar1} no mate
[21:01] {DeepO} ok
[21:01] {vondrack} hello, DeepO!
[21:01] * redstar1 sets mode: +o DeepO
[21:01] {zeit} DeepO- i see you keep an eye on the board...
[21:01] {DeepO} AFK: rolling a siggie
[21:02] {redstar1} no probs
[21:02] {zeit} weird, according to babylon "ciggie" is from australian slang, and i thought DeepO was belgian...
[21:02] {redstar1} waiting for the ambassador anyway
[21:03] {DeepO} back
[21:03] {DeepO} and i am Belgian
[21:03] {DeepO} 04 " 14zeit 04 " are you logging this?
[21:03] {vondrack} I will provide you with a log, if you wish
[21:03] {DeepO} thanks
[21:03] {redstar1} i also have a log
[21:03] {zeit} not really, i have no clue how to work with this program
[21:03] {DeepO} because always get confused with those things
[21:04] {redstar1} lol
[21:04] {zeit} well, it's 1-0 for the Legolanders...
[21:04] {redstar1} so how are things in gsland?
[21:04] {redstar1} 1-0?
[21:04] {zeit} you know the program, we don't
[21:04] {redstar1} oh
[21:04] {vondrack} LoL
[21:04] {DeepO} a bit cooled down for me, very busy irl lately
[21:04] {redstar1} don't worry about it, we play fair
[21:04] {DeepO}
[21:05] {zeit} In the GS- depends on who you ask, but i think we're doing pretty good, generally
[21:05] {redstar1} good good
[21:06] {redstar1} no wars we need to know about?
[21:06] {zeit} with both of us, being the top commerce producers, working together, things will be even better
[21:06] {DeepO} 04 " 14zeit 04 " lol I guess Theseus and Arian would be only somewhat pleased
[21:06] * quantum_mechani has joined #LeGS
[21:06] {redstar1} yes we hope so
[21:06] {redstar1} hi qm
[21:06] {vondrack} ah, here we are
[21:06] {vondrack} our ambassador
[21:06] {zeit} DeepO- that's just who i had in mind
[21:06] {DeepO} sorry guys, I'm lagging a lot it seems... don't be surprusied if I don't answer for over a minute
[21:07] {DeepO} hi q_m
[21:07] {quantum_mechani} hi
[21:07] {zeit} vondrack, give him the honor of being opped.
[21:07] {DeepO} so is everybody present?
[21:07] * vondrack sets mode: +o quantum_mechani
[21:07] {redstar1} our foreign minister may be along later
[21:07] {vondrack} ok, he's in the club now
[21:08] {DeepO} do we need to wait on him?
[21:08] {vondrack} I believe we can start
[21:08] {DeepO} and who is it btw?
[21:08] {DeepO} ok
[21:08] {vondrack} Nimitz
[21:08] {vondrack} but I do not think he will join us
[21:08] {DeepO} so... first things first, how would you like a pure tech deal
[21:08] {vondrack} RL constraints
[21:09] {DeepO} in that you somehow get us cons+curr, we give repu+ polyt
[21:09] {DeepO} with a bit of a compensation for the difference in beaker costs
[21:09] {DeepO} ?
[21:09] {quantum_mechani} hmm... I think we already have poly
[21:10] {vondrack} yes, we do, DeepO
[21:10] {DeepO} ok, so what about the same, buut gold on our side with repu, for the 2 others?
[21:10] {DeepO} (btw, no need to offer us poly, we got it at the same moment, it seems)
[21:11] {vondrack} actually, we planned to be a bit nicer to you
[21:11] {DeepO} you were?
[21:11] {zeit} please elaborate...
[21:11] {vondrack} we'd be happy to trade Curr+Const for Rep
[21:11] {vondrack} in case you let us
[21:11] {vondrack} trade Rep to GoW and RPers later
[21:11] {DeepO} that sounds good
[21:11] {vondrack} and do not mind us trading with Voxes
[21:12] {DeepO} one sec
[21:12] {DeepO} RP and GoW: no problem
[21:12] {DeepO} if you leave us ND and Vox
[21:12] {vondrack} that would be a problem... I will explain
[21:12] {DeepO} and possibly, if we delay trading rep away for 1 turn after we both got it
[21:12] {DeepO} ok
[21:12] {DeepO} go ahead
[21:12] {vondrack} Voxes are scientific
[21:13] {vondrack} they get a free tech once they entered medieval times
[21:13] {DeepO} true
[21:13] {vondrack} we'd like to have a chance trading for it
[21:13] {DeepO} we're misunderstanding each other, I think
[21:13] {vondrack} so that in the end, Lego, GS, and Voxes start from the same point in the medieval times
[21:13] {DeepO} aha
[21:13] {quantum_mechani} sorry, I know I am supposed to be doing the talking but I can't keep up with the typing
[21:14] {vondrack}
[21:14] {DeepO}
[21:14] {DeepO} yeah
[21:14] {zeit} so am i, it's okay
[21:14] {DeepO} can I take the board for a minute?
[21:14] {vondrack} sorry for taking over, I thought you were having troubles, q_m
[21:14] {vondrack} sure
[21:14] {DeepO} first of all: we were thinking on you getting Vox's tech
[21:14] {vondrack} good
[21:15] {DeepO} but that was not a problem to us, if it wouldn't prevent us from trading republic with Vox
[21:15] {DeepO} after that, everything is fine for us
[21:15] {DeepO} we don't see Vox as our property, you know
[21:15] {vondrack} we thought that you would trade Rep for the free Vox tech
[21:15] {DeepO} more or less, yes
[21:15] {vondrack} so we seem to understand each other
[21:16] {vondrack} we would like to trade Curr+Constr for their free tech
[21:16] {vondrack} +/- something to balance things maybe - but that's just a detail
[21:17] {DeepO} well
[21:17] {DeepO} for us it's fine, but some of the deal so far already included trading the two techs to Vox
[21:17] {vondrack} you trading it to them?
[21:17] {DeepO} i'm noot saying you can't try it, but I doubt they would go for it
[21:17] {DeepO} yes, more or less
[21:18] {DeepO} i'm sorry, but it's hard to get specific when it comes to Vox, it's a very complex situation
[21:18] {vondrack} well, if you don't trade Curr+Constr to them yourselves, they will not be able to get it from anywhere else
[21:18] {DeepO} maybe we could somehow trade that tech to you?
[21:19] {DeepO} 04 " 14vondrack 04 " that might be a way out
[21:19] {vondrack} that might be possible, I hope
[21:19] {vondrack} my only concern would be the exact timing
[21:19] {vondrack} but thinking of it
[21:19] {vondrack} it would probably be ok
[21:19] {zeit} while also making a long term deal into the medeival, i'm sure any single tier 1 tech can be compensated later on
[21:19] {DeepO} because if you would propose us with a limited non disclosure thing, we wouldn't be allowed to trade it on
[21:20] {DeepO} so you wold create a window of opportunity to trade to lego to
[21:20] {DeepO} to=too
[21:20] {vondrack} well, as far as you would be able to accomodate us on the Vox free tech (no-whore clause, of course), we would be happy, I believe
[21:21] {DeepO} well, we were already thinking on trying to get a longer relation with you
[21:21] {DeepO} so that shouldn't be a problem
[21:21] {vondrack} so are we
[21:21] {vondrack} there are reasonable teams and there are other teams
[21:21] {DeepO}
[21:21] {zeit} as we are both top researchers, and pretty isolated
[21:21] {vondrack} yeah
[21:22] {DeepO} well... are you top researchers?
[21:22] {vondrack} no idea )
[21:22] {zeit} so we are rather safe from foreign intrusions, that might hinder such a long term relationship
[21:22] {DeepO} because it is our impression, but we could be wrong
[21:22] {vondrack} but we are doing fine, I hope
[21:22] {DeepO} you should see it in the F11 screen, under GNP
[21:22] {DeepO} it ranks you...
[21:22] {vondrack} lemme see
[21:23] {vondrack} dammit
[21:23] {vondrack} it's bad
[21:23] {vondrack} we are not #1
[21:23] {vondrack}
[21:23] {zeit} ?
[21:23] {vondrack} #2
[21:23] {vondrack}
[21:23] {DeepO} thank you...
[21:23] {zeit} we are #1
[21:23] {zeit} like i said
[21:23] {DeepO} we are both the top, then, this might make things a bit easier
[21:23] {vondrack} then we are not top researchers - you are :P
[21:23] {zeit} DeepO, you're a genius
[21:23] {vondrack}
[21:24] {zeit} i meant- we both
[21:24] {vondrack} j/k
[21:24] {DeepO} okay, more specific
[21:24] {DeepO} would you in general be interested in getting the both us to education and knights fast?
[21:25] {DeepO} by splitting research amongst us?
[21:25] {zeit} AFK- gf business...
[21:25] {vondrack} well, I am speaking for myself now
[21:25] {vondrack} these things need to be consulted with the team
[21:25] {DeepO} I mean, no official proposal, just trying to figure out your larger goals in this game
[21:25] {vondrack} but as far as I know
[21:25] {DeepO} of course
[21:25] {vondrack} yes
[21:25] {redstar1} I think we can both benefit from some form of co-operation
[21:25] {vondrack} we would be interested
[21:25] {DeepO} well, we would too
[21:25] {DeepO} if only for the less hectic diplo contacts
[21:26] {vondrack} preferring to go for the Edu branch
[21:26] {DeepO} okay... this is something we should see in team
[21:26] {vondrack} yeah, diplo is hectic
[21:26] {DeepO} our long term planning isn't that far, too many variables the next 50 or so turns
[21:26] {vondrack} np
[21:27] {DeepO} it opens a lot of possibilities
[21:27] {vondrack} us leaning towards the Edu branch is just something that was very informally discussed in one chat
[21:27] {vondrack} nothing set in stone
[21:27] {redstar1} i think the point made was that it suits our circumstances
[21:27] {DeepO} maybe it would be best to try to schedule a more regular chat between our teams, so more of our teams can make it
[21:27] {vondrack} good idea
[21:27] {DeepO} edu: np
[21:27] {redstar1} although at the time we feared being well behind in tech
[21:28] {DeepO} no GL idea?
[21:28] {vondrack} GLib?
[21:28] {DeepO} it seemed so obvious to us...
[21:28] {DeepO} yeah
[21:28] {vondrack} it would have been a lot of gambling
[21:28] {DeepO} now it doesn't make this much sense anymore
[21:28] {DeepO} if you can be the tech-leader, who wants to trail behind?
[21:28] {vondrack} we had no idea whether and what is being built
[21:28] {DeepO} so far, not much...
[21:28] {vondrack} what was
[21:28] {redstar1} no, i think we gain more from discussions as this than we would from the GL
[21:29] {DeepO}
[21:29] {vondrack} LoL
[21:29] {vondrack} yes
[21:29] {vondrack} so, to make things clear - we do not consider building GLib
[21:29] {DeepO} no, now it would be a waste
[21:29] {vondrack} agreed
[21:29] {DeepO}
[21:30] {DeepO} luckily for every team
[21:30] {DeepO} it might be possible to get more military tech before getting edu, perhaps
[21:30] {DeepO} I don't know...
[21:30] {DeepO} if that would do any good
[21:30] {DeepO} we'll start a discussion on this in our forum
[21:30] {vondrack} thinking of the lower part of the tree?
[21:30] {DeepO} Okay, summarizing:
[21:30] {vondrack} ok
[21:31] {redstar1} we have plenty of time
[21:31] {DeepO} true
[21:31] {DeepO} i mean yes
[21:31] {DeepO} 1. we'll try to get a more regular chat going
[21:31] {DeepO} every weekend perhaps?
[21:31] {DeepO} it's easier on time tables
[21:31] {redstar1} yeah
[21:31] {redstar1} sunday evenings? gmt?
[21:31] {vondrack} np with me
[21:31] {DeepO} sounds good, if it's not too late
[21:31] {redstar1} dunno what suits vondrack or quantum tbh
[21:32] {DeepO} too soon, I mean
[21:32] {DeepO}
[21:32] {vondrack} I am GMT+1
[21:32] {DeepO} me too
[21:32] {vondrack} and hanging around almost all the time
[21:32] {zeit} i'm back
[21:32] {quantum_mechani} GMT -9
[21:32] {zeit} seems like alot was discussed
[21:32] {DeepO} but Sunday isn't good before 9 gmt for me
[21:32] {zeit} i'm GMT+2
[21:33] {DeepO} okay, zeit what hour can you stay up at a Sunday?
[21:33] {zeit} pretty early, i might be able to make it until 10 GMT
[21:33] {DeepO} what about 9 GMT then?
[21:33] {vondrack} Sunday 9pm GMT would be okay with me
[21:34] {DeepO} that would be good for me, and normally with q_m too
[21:34] {redstar1} yep
[21:34] {zeit} okay, sounds good to me
[21:34] {DeepO} let's fix that, then
[21:34] {vondrack} q_m, is this ok with you?
[21:34] {vondrack} I mean, for you it's noon time, right?
[21:35] {zeit} we have scheduled another date- means our relationship is getting on the right track...
[21:35] {quantum_mechani} let me check the time zone converter
[21:35] {vondrack} LoL
[21:35] {zeit} those non-europeans, can't convert simple GMT times...
[21:35] {vondrack}
[21:36] {redstar1} hehe
[21:36] {zeit} oops, just turned myself into a european.. but they let us play in the euro champinships
[21:36] {redstar1} ahh israel right?
[21:36] {zeit} yep
[21:37] {redstar1} all hell gonna break loose down there
[21:37] {DeepO} next one... q_m get back to us later
[21:37] {zeit} have my ABC protection kit eight next to me, don't freak me or i'm gonna inject myself some atropin
[21:37] {quantum_mechani} yes, 9pm GMT is ok
[21:37] {DeepO} 2. Lego will trade cons+curr to GS, we trade repu to them the moment we'll discover it (should be turn 82)
[21:37] {vondrack} ok, let's go on
[21:37] {DeepO} okay
[21:37] {DeepO} so 1. is fixed at 9pm GMT on Sundays
[21:37] {vondrack} good
[21:37] {DeepO} 2.: more things: do you have an eta on any of the techs?
[21:38] {vondrack} Curr in 9-10 turns
[21:38] {vondrack} 10 max
[21:38] {vondrack} 9 maybe
[21:38] {vondrack} sorry - no time to whip my XLSes recently

[DeepO]

[21:38] {DeepO} 3. We will try to figure out some way of getting Vox's free tech to lego
[21:38] {DeepO} np
[21:38] {DeepO} 9 or 10 should be close enough
[21:39] {vondrack} Construction will be available in time
[21:39] {zeit} do we delay Republic public release?
[21:39] {DeepO} 3.: need more discussion on both parts
[21:39] {DeepO} 04 " 14zeit 04 " maybe best
[21:39] {DeepO} but not too much
[21:39] {DeepO} 2 turns max
[21:39] {DeepO} any little bit helps set us apart
[21:39] {DeepO} every
[21:39] {DeepO} instead of any
[21:39] {DeepO} and no, i'm not flodding you
[21:40] {DeepO} it only looks that way
[21:40] {DeepO} flodding = flooding
[21:40] {zeit} of course we should, but does Lego agree, vondrack?
[21:40] {vondrack} thinking it over
[21:40] {DeepO} take your time
[21:40] {zeit} okay, DeepO, that's enough.
[21:41] {vondrack} we would probably prefer not delaying it
[21:41] {vondrack} but I would have to consult
[21:41] {DeepO} okay...
[21:41] {redstar1} damn democracy
[21:41] {DeepO} but there is again a possibility here
[21:41] {vondrack} we might prefer you keeping it for YOURSELF only for those two turns
[21:41] {DeepO} if you would always trade for the tech, instead of giving it (and aceepting it in the same turn)
[21:41] {zeit} As top researchers, we have common interest- delaying the advance of other teams
[21:41] {DeepO} ah, but that's no problem
[21:42] {DeepO} indeed
[21:42] {DeepO} that was what we're aiming for
[21:42] {DeepO} but it would require one more thing: some pruning of the Bobian civs
[21:42] {vondrack} yes, that would be okay
[21:42] {vondrack} Turn 84 then?
[21:42] {DeepO} sounds good to me
[21:42] {DeepO} but we'll need to get it confirmed by our team
[21:42] {vondrack} that would be perfectly okay with us
[21:43] {DeepO} ok
[21:43] {DeepO} 3. then
[21:43] {DeepO} 4. I mean
[21:43] {DeepO} 4. Lego and GS try to get some tech relation in place, which will last well into the middle age
[21:43] {DeepO} preferably a very long time
[21:44] {vondrack} yes, that sounds viable
[21:44] {DeepO} but that depends too much on situation to say something meaningfull on
[21:44] {vondrack} and doable, too
[21:44] {DeepO} part of 4. means that in the near future, we'll coordinate tech plans
[21:44] {DeepO} which means a bit of long term planning on both teams
[21:44] {vondrack} yes, that would be okay
[21:44] {DeepO} something else we need to discuss?
[21:45] {vondrack} ahhhh... long term planning... my hobby
[21:45] {DeepO}
[21:45] {vondrack} DeepO, one thing
[21:45] {vondrack} that free tech from Voxes is crucial for us
[21:45] {vondrack} keep that in mind, please
[21:45] {DeepO} yes I do
[21:45] {vondrack} ok
[21:45] {zeit} This should be kept secret from the other teams, though, as they won't really like dealing with two teams that research as one
[21:45] {DeepO} and I don't want to rip you of getting it either
[21:45] {DeepO} but it might be needed to delay it getting to you...
[21:46] {DeepO} and it will depend on what it is
[21:46] {DeepO} if mono, it might be traded slower then when it would be one of the military techs
[21:46] {vondrack} other than that, we'd agree to not resell that free tech + would ask to be able to sell Rep to GoW & RPers + would ask that you do not trade Curr+Constr to GoW & RPers
[21:46] {DeepO} good for me
[21:47] {DeepO} if you would allow us sole right on rep to ND and Vox
[21:47] {DeepO} and no NDA on curr+constr to Vox
[21:47] {vondrack} yes, that would be fine with us
[21:47] {vondrack} no NDA?
[21:47] {DeepO} we'll try to get ND in on the deal, but there's no guarantee they'll go for it
[21:47] {DeepO} Non Disclosure Agreement
[21:47] {DeepO} also NWA
[21:47] {DeepO} Non whoring Agreement
[21:47] {DeepO}
[21:48] {vondrack} like we do no sell it to them, right?
[21:48] {zeit} they are somewhat silent when it comes to PM and out of game comm.
[21:48] {DeepO} yes, indeed
[21:48] {vondrack} yep, that would be okay
[21:48] {DeepO} 04 " 14zeit 04 " ND?
[21:48] {DeepO} it's true
[21:48] {zeit} yep
[21:48] {DeepO} okay, I'll try to get a proposal ratified by our board asap, it should reach you in 2 days or so
[21:48] {vondrack} hmmm... you guys are no fun!
[21:48] {DeepO} maybe 3... I'm on a conference
[21:48] {vondrack} you shoudl see other teams
[21:49] {DeepO} no fun?
[21:49] {vondrack} THEY are difficult to bargain with! )
[21:49] {DeepO}
[21:49] {vondrack} this is like a friendly chit-chat...
[21:49] {DeepO} part comes of course because it's on our interest that lego grows stronger
[21:49] {vondrack} just j/k, of course
[21:49] {zeit} well, when sharing interests, its much easier to trade
[21:49] {DeepO} while all the others see you as a threat
[21:49] {vondrack} yeah... no idea why, really
[21:49] {DeepO} your isolated
[21:50] {DeepO} simple...
[21:50] {DeepO} but we're kind of isloated too
[21:50] {DeepO} we're hearing strange rumours coming from Bob
[21:50] {vondrack} about what?
[21:50] {DeepO} they seem to realise that the longer we stay left alone, the better our position gets.
[21:50] {DeepO} certainly now that lego is one of the best econmoical powers in this game
[21:51] {DeepO} so... diplo contact is getting a lot harsher
[21:51] {vondrack} hmmm... come to think of it... they may be right, after all... )
[21:51] {DeepO}
[21:51] {DeepO} maybe
[21:51] {zeit} more attention will come in our way, especially when they realize we have some arrangement between us
[21:51] {DeepO} true
[21:51] {vondrack} I agree
[21:51] {DeepO} we need to keep this absolutely secret
[21:51] {vondrack} agreed
[21:52] {vondrack} how do Voxes fit in, if you do not mind me asking?
[21:52] {DeepO} well...
[21:52] {DeepO} it's complicated
[21:52] {vondrack} Bobians seem to believe you and them are in fact one
[21:52] {zeit} So sniff around, and be alert, those Bobians can be hurt rather quickly- they've had their share of betrayls, and seem unforgiving
[21:52] {DeepO} Vox is getting behind big time
[21:52] {vondrack} The One, maybe )
[21:52] {DeepO} and they know it
[21:52] {DeepO} which makes them a lot more unstable to deal with
[21:53] {DeepO} we absolutely need to keep them friendly until we get their tech
[21:53] {DeepO} after that... who knows
[21:53] {DeepO} we are prepared for an attack before that, though
[21:53] {DeepO} so maybe there will be a problem with their tech after all
[21:53] {vondrack} you fear them attacking you?
[21:54] {DeepO} now would be the best time for them
[21:54] {DeepO} because of their imortals
[21:54] {DeepO} immortals
[21:54] {vondrack} that's true
[21:54] {DeepO} it's not that we are so tense about it
[21:54] {zeit} We can't say we fear, as they are pretty weak, but we keep an eye
[21:54] {DeepO} but it really is a possibility
[21:54] {DeepO} currently, our relation is in their favor
[21:55] {DeepO} in that we give them more then we get
[21:55] {zeit} besides their UU, they are no serious threat, but we dislike fighting wars that others dictate
[21:55] {DeepO} simply because there is fewer to get then we can give
[21:55] {vondrack} I see
[21:55] {DeepO} but how long this will keep up? I don't know
[21:56] {vondrack} well, this is fascinating
[21:56] {DeepO} is it?
[21:56] {DeepO} how did you saw our relation then?
[21:56] {vondrack} seeing/hearing the same thing from different sources
[21:56] {DeepO} lol
[21:56] {DeepO} I can imagine... curious what Vox would have to say
[21:57] {vondrack} the pictures are so much different
[21:57] {zeit} I think Vox have been talking about our relations more then they should have, as eyes are starting to turn at our direction, with a mean look too
[21:57] {DeepO} true
[21:57] {DeepO} it makes us sound like the bad guys, while we're just keeping our mouth shut
[21:58] {DeepO} which we promised to do too...
[21:58] {vondrack} yeah... "secretive" is the term I heard used regarding GS
[21:58] {DeepO} may be
[21:58] {DeepO} but that is not our intention
[21:58] {zeit} We treat this game rather seriously, so our secrets, are, well, secret
[21:58] {vondrack} I heard that same term used about us
[21:58] {vondrack} ditto
[21:59] {DeepO} the problem is that if we want to play honorably, not mentioning anything of what another team tells us in private, we can't really say much
[21:59] {DeepO} and we want to play honorably
[21:59] {DeepO} at all costs
[21:59] {vondrack} I understand
[21:59] {vondrack} this is quite different from what Bobians are used to
[21:59] {DeepO} true
[21:59] {DeepO} which makes them very powerful allies
[21:59] {DeepO} if they ever can set their differences apart
[22:00] {DeepO} in that respect, it would be best if we try to focus on one or a few teams, to keep them divided
[22:00] {DeepO} diplomatically I mean
[22:00] {DeepO} not military
[22:00] {vondrack} we are still looking for our place in this world
[22:01] {zeit} But strife there works in our favor, to a certain degree- it is best they focus on themselevs, but not forced into drastic measures, like Lux was
[22:01] {vondrack} you seem to be the first variable turning into a constant
[22:01] {vondrack} for us
[22:01] {DeepO}
[22:01] {DeepO} we hope so
[22:01] {zeit} i concur
[22:01] {DeepO} it would make our game a lot easier to assess
[22:01] {vondrack} yes
[22:02] {vondrack} well
[22:02] {DeepO} things are slowing down... any thing else?
[22:02] {zeit} I'm almost certain this will be approved on our board, as no serous concerns were raised
[22:02] {DeepO} otherwise, I would say see you next Sunday
[22:02] {vondrack} agreed
[22:02] {DeepO} and I agree, this should be an easy deal
[22:03] {vondrack} next Sunday, 9pm GMT
[22:03] {DeepO} right
[22:03] {DeepO} where's my agenda
[22:03] {zeit} so if we both want our relations to be constant, it is quite probably will
[22:03] {vondrack} it was our greatest pleaure, Gentlemen
[22:03] {DeepO} the pleasure was all ours
[22:03] {DeepO} please send us the log
[22:03] {vondrack} DeepO... off to writing GS Chronicle?
[22:03] {vondrack} I will
[22:03] {DeepO} lol
[22:04] {vondrack} Stephen Bex, right?
[22:04] {DeepO} not really... we need to find a hhistorian
[22:04] {DeepO} Steven
[22:04] {zeit} May we have many more fruitful talks like this one
[22:04] {vondrack} sorry
[22:04] {DeepO} Stephem would be English
[22:04] {DeepO} np
[22:04] {vondrack} I remember getting an email from you
[22:04] {vondrack} the minimap, I think
[22:04] {vondrack} I will "reply" to that email
[22:04] {DeepO} possible... I did distribute those
[22:04] {DeepO} fine!
[22:04] {vondrack} ok, take care, both of you!
[22:04] {DeepO} bye!
[22:05] {vondrack} and see you on Sunday
[22:05] {vondrack} bye
[22:05] * DeepO has left #legs
[22:05] {zeit} bye, see you in sunday
[22:05] {vondrack} bye
[22:05] * zeit has left #legs
[22:05] * vondrack sets mode: -k BrainStorm
[22:05] * vondrack sets mode: +k Sttt
[22:05] {quantum_mechani} I am going too
[22:05] {vondrack} how did you like it, folks?
[22:05] {vondrack} I did
[22:05] {redstar1} no bad
[22:05] * quantum_mechani has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving )
[22:06] {vondrack} gtg for a wee while
[22:06] {vondrack} meet you in the Lego room later
[22:08] * redstar1 has left #legs
[22:16] [Shiber[reading]:#legs PING]
Session Close: Tue Mar 18 22:34:12 2003

[DeepO]

redstar1, quantum_mechani,

Sorry to be this late in getting back to you, I just arrived back from my trip... kind of exhausted too. The proposal I posted to the board last Tuesday was approved unanomously(sp?), and quite quickly too. I'm sorry it didn't reach you sooner...

Please find hereunder the proposal as discussed in last chat. Just some quick protocol (I'm sure it's similar on your side, but just to leave no doubts on this...): normally we first discuss a proposal, until we feel ready to ratify it. If so, one party (in this case us) makes a proposal, which we officially poll about on our board. If it gets approved, we send the ratified proposal back to the other party. The moment we get word back they agree to it, we consider the deal to be in effect.

For smaller deals, we can be less strict, but for things like these, which spans hopefully a long time, we are careful not to imply anything, but to be very clear and unambigously.

If you have any comments, or see any necessary changes, don't hesitate to contact me. It was as discussed in last chat (at least to the best of my knowledge), but that doesn't make it final per se...

Proposal between Legoland and Gathering Storm, trading republic against construction and currency
1. Legoland will give construction and currency to Gathering Storm, the turn they acquire it, in order to get both of us to the middle age asap.

2. Gathering Storm will give Legoland the Republic, no later then turn 84 (barring natural disasters of those magnitude that it wouldn't be possible to reach the republic before that time)

3. Legoland is free to trade republic to RP and to GoW the moment they get it. They will not trade the republic to ND or Vox

4. Gathering Storm is free to trade the republic to Vox and to ND, and will not try to trade it to RP or GoW

5. Gathering Storm is free to trade construction and currency to Vox and ND, if possible

6. When entering the middle age, Vox will receive a free tech. Under normal circumstances, Gathering Storm will acquire this tech from Vox. If so, they will immediately trade it to Legoland, for a favorable price (quite possible as part of a larger deal).
Legoland agrees to some form of non disclosure agreement on the 'free tech', of which details can later be discussed.

7. It is the hope of both our teams that this trade is the first in a long term relationship, and negotiations for such a longer trade relation will start immediately (e.g. on discovering techs in opposite branches, to both speed onwards in the tech tree)

8. To better discuss this, regular chats are being scheduled between our teams, proposed every Sunday, at 9 pm GMT somewhere in the Apolyton chat rooms. Everyone is welcome

Further issues: I'm trying to get into the chatroom, but had no luck so far to connect to apolyton (which happens more, I'm afraid). I keep trying, but maybe there is not that much need: because of my trip, I'm totally behind with PTW-DG stuff, I have a full week Gathering Spam forum to get through I can't say much new, as I haven't given this much thought lately... I don't know if many opinions have formed already on our board (at first glance, nothing decisive, but maybe it's simply burried in the new posts), I can't speak for them. So, if others can't join me, there is little point for me to participate...

So I suggest to postpone the chat, unless you have anything to ask, for which I'll gladly try to get connected... and I promise that for next week, I'll try to get some discussion going on our board as to where we want this relation to go to... next Sunday, I'll be better informed. My apologies again for not contacting you sooner, real life can be a chronical disease sometimes.

DeepO

[DeepO]

redstar1,

no problem on the explanations, that's why we want these proposals to be precise I thought everything came from the chat, but it's only normal that both parties have a different understanding on the contents, so better to make it clear then.

Currency&Construction for republic should be okay for us, we'd prefer to have it beforehand, so we don't waste turns on less then 100% science, though. That's why we asked for immediate, but 1 turn beforehand should be fine as well.

Natural disasters: when recounting, it seems we made a little mistake, in that we missed one turn. At best, we should get republic in turn 83, and if anything would go wrong, that goes to turn 84. And it seems something is going wrong, there has been a lot of pressure coming from Bob, and it might be needed for us to change the order in which our cities are founded to better protect out territory... it's not definate yet, but that change might make republic only possible in turn 84, leaving us no time in between getting the tech, and trading it onwards.

The problem is Vox... there was some kind of implicit understanding that we wouldn't bother to settle Bob, and none of the Bobians would come bother us here. But, last turn, Vox landed a settler and a couple of immortals on Bob, and GoW is getting pissed, and threatening. They somehow think it is a common plan of Vox and GS to invade them... as a result, we need to rearrange our cities, to settle in more defensive position first, instead of going for the least corrupted, and most commerce city sites...

Natural disasters: normally this shouldn't cover changes in city placement because of external tension, the intention (and when I first wrote it, the only real reason) for that clause is because we have been hit by disease a couple of times already in this game. And, because of the bug that disease strikes for two consecutive turns each time it hits you, this can make a big difference in gathered resources... we would have been over 3 cities more powerful now, if it wasn't for disease. It was simply a clause that would make it possible for us to be unlucky in the game, without needing to feel the diplomatic repercussions of that.

Free tech: I misuderstood you, I think... I only stated in chat that we would trade it to you, implying at a favorable price, because it wouldn't be logical for Vox to give it to you for free (and neither would it for us to give republic+monotheism for currency+construction, that's about triple the beaker cost). I do not think anyone of our team will agree for this...

Sorry, hard pressed for time (I need to give classes now), more this evening. Please don't hesitate to contact me!

DeepO

DeepO,

No problem on the delay, we all have a life outside here

We are however, somewhat confused...

We understood Currency and Construction would be a straight trade for Republic as soon as is possible. We are however prepared to gift Currency and Construction one turn before you gift us Republic. This one turn difference would be the most we can afford as every turn counts and we need to prepare our defenses against massive barbarian uprisings that will spawn once you go medieval.

Could you expand on 'Natural Disasters' please?

We also understood that the 'free' tech from Vox would in fact, be free. Without this deal we would be able to attain it ourselves for Currency & Construction so we would require the result to be the same with yourselves effectively acting as broker. We must have misunderstood each other on this so we perhaps need to discuss this further.

In any case, we see the deal as follows:

1. Lego gives GS Curr&Const 1 turn before Lego receives Rep from GS
2. GS are free to trade C&C to Vox on the condition that they supply us with Monotheism for free immediately they receive it from Vox.
3. GS are free to trade C&C to ND

We hope we can come to agreement on this and we hope for a long and fruitful trading relationship between ourselves. It may come to pass that we are the only two nations yet untarnished by conflict...

Apologies about the chat last night, hopefully next week will be more fruitful!

Many thanks

Redstar1

[DeepO]

redstar1, I suspected this... a miscommunication, no fault or wrong intent by either side... so let's get back to the trading table then, I'm sure we'll work something out

Unfortunately, I still was unable to fully catch up to the current situation, but from our side, one of the reason to make this a double 2-sided deal instead of a 3-side one is that we need some options in how to deal with Vox. This was true beforehand because Vox is unstable, a (long term) risk to us, and we had a former deal to wrap up, but this has become even more true given the new situation.

With Vox and Bob very close to, or even in the middle of a war, they become an even larger liability. Normally, they should be able to survive to the time we need to supply cons+curr to them, but if Bob really does unite against Vox - as GF has been claiming - they will not survive much longer after getting monotheism. It could make their willingness to trade with us as a group a whole lot more difficult. Consider that, if Vox knows that GS and the Legos are getting very close, they also know that somewhere down the road they are being dropped from the head of the tech race, a position they now only have because of us.

Given this, there are two things we would like to insist on:
1) this deal will be between us two, with perhaps reasonable guesses of what others can contribute, but without them getting involved in our agreement. We'll deal with Vox separately, we simply have to.

2) as much as possible, we try to consider monotheism as something we aim for, but not something definate, as the situation with Vox does not make it a definate thing. Making it part of the deal makes sense as it will be the next tech on the market, and either one of us will need it to start on hiis new tech, but we should provide enough "plan B"s in case something goes wrong when getting it. We thought Lux would be an advantage to us if we let them stay on our continent, we were wrong... we rather not have another diplo hit because some civ gets eradicated.

Further ideas: Vox will get construction and currency from us, we are bound here by a former deal we can not revoke, nor renegotiate. They could agree to get it from you for some laugable price (which I believe they have tried to negotiate to see what the current price for techs are), but never will they pay anything valuable because they already have one source secured. If they wouldn't get the techs from us, they will not get any compensation out of our side, so anything they spend is a pure loss. (except for improved relations, which are perhaps the most valuable asset in this game)

As to your questions:
1) "favourable price" could mean a lot, but basically in this context it means that we fully understand the 'first' deal of curr+constr for rep is largely in our favor, and we owe you for that. We would like to have it included in (at least the beginning of) a long term tech deal, which would make its virtual value its beaker cost, to be offsetted by a future trade from us.

If I need to put a money tag on it (mind you, my opinion, GS has not seen this yet), I would say that a favourable price should mean that for all the deals other teams might strike on that tech, legoland should get the bottom price. That should be low enough, I think, but it's hard to put a precise number of it... maybe half, or one third of 'first' price.

2) not nit-picking, but the resale part of the techs is not the same, not by far even. If we get currency+construction from you, the moment we get it, at least 4 other teams have it as well, perhaps even 5 of them (only leaving Vox as last). We could 'resell' it to them, but the actual value of it is bottom price, as in theory (without the previous GS-Vox deal) they would have 4 or 5 sources to trade it from. Further, you will resell the techs to us, instead of researching themselves. Not that it tastes any different, but those are third-hand techs we're getting

Republic, OTOH, has full resell value, you will get it before anyone else by at least a few turns, and you will have two sure buyers for it. They will still offer premium prices (and you better insist on it!), as they will not be able to get it from another source, we will not sell it to them, and will enforce NDAs on 'our' rep-deals.
Last resale comment: ND is no sure buyer for us, maybe we can enforce republic, but the other techs they will likely get before us.

So, the resale part does negate the pure difference cost in beakers a bit, meaning that difference should translate into about 40 gold or so (again, no proposal, just a personal guess!). Instead of precisely calculating the costs, we would rather have this surpluss written on our 'GS favour -- needs to be repaid to Lego' tab, and solving the difference with a future deal.

But if you want, I can start an official poll on how much we would be willing to pay in gold; I'll gladly do it if it would make the deal easier for you. We are not that short on change to risk losing friends

Kind regards,
DeepO

Dear DeepO,

I think we probably have misunderstood each other on the issue of the free technology. Our original idea was that it would be kinda like a three-sided deal with GS, Vox, and Lego involved. GS would be providing Republic, Voxes would be providing their free tech, and Lego would be providing Currency+Construction (beaker costs approximately the same...). Everybody was supposed to get all the techs - it seemed to be a fair deal to us.

Well, we now see that it is not probably going to work, so let's try discussing two possibilities:

1) suppose we agree to get Monotheism from you for a "favourable price" - what is your idea of this "favourable price", please?

2) suppose we get all the way back to your original idea: trading Currency+Construction (resale rights for Voxes & ND included) for Republic+gold (resale rights for GoW and maybe RPers included). How much gold would you offer to balance the beaker cost difference between The Republic (672) and Currency+Construction combined (384+480=864)? The resale right part is fortunately equal on both sides...

If you can provide us with some figures for both of these option, it would help us to make our choice and proceed with the deal.

Best regards,
redstar1

[DeepO]

Thanks Redstar1,

It's truely a pleasure to see our understanding grow. Allow me to try to improve it a little more, by responding personally, before I post your last message to our board

Further problems have risen on our tech deal. ND is, as was feared, not interested in any of the techs we could offer. We have serious reasons to believe they are researching currency, but republic as well did not interest them. This was before Vox started to negotiate for staying on Bob, so they wouldn't be getting it from Vox, and neither from you... we are wondering where republic would comes from.

This seems (maybe again under the wrong assumptions, but they're the best we can go on right now) to be because either RP is researching the republic, or GoW will sell republic to the other two once it gets it from you. We should definately rule out the second possibility, by forcing NDAs on both GoW and Vox, e.g. for a 10 turn period. If Bob deals amongst itself, we (I mean GS-Lego combined) get less profit from the techs...

If RP is getting republic themselves (which is certainly likely if they don't want to get it from you), it's actually not that bad for the world situation, any team can save more gold for trading techs then beakers needed to do their own research in the same time. If they spend beakers, with the result that both Lego and GS gets a bit less gold in total, it should still favor us because Bob has fewer gold then if they would have bought the techs from us.

One more remark; the value of currency took another dip. Not only can't we sell it to them (which we foresaw), but if they are researching it, it means that the moment you get it, it's third hand, the moment we get it, we're second last for sure. You know that the beaker cost of currency will have dropped close to half its value in game, I hope you are not offended if we regard it the same in our negotiations. Most likely, the same happens with construction, I wouldn't be surprised if actually the deal becomes in your favour if we simply swap curr+constr for republic.

If you would have asked for an amount of gold 10 days ago, I'm sure 70 gold would not have been a problem (it would have been high even then, but it would mean that we could set timing for the release of republic to the world, which we now cannot because RP gets Rep as well), but right now, I don't think my team will agree. Even the 40 I speculated about in last PM starts to sound as a supergift from us, the situation has changed quite a bit, and it forces us to take it into account while renegotiating.

My apologies, but as I still believe that honesty pays off in diplomatic contact, I have to advise you to drop the gold part of the deal, it would make its acceptance on GS's side a lot easier and friendlier. Our whole team agrees that Legoland is our main hope for getting a stable friend in this game, but not eveyone is willing to give up as much to get there. I will offer your proposal to the board, but I doubt it will get accepted...

Maybe it's good to try to speed things up, we're not that far from turn 84 anymore. I would definately meet on Sunday, to discuss this deal if it still needs debate, and start on swapping ideas on future business, to not get crammed for time. Further, I'd be delighted to exchange notes on what we think is happening on Bob, it's clear that they are our common problem in this game if we want to fare well in the (far) future.

BTW, just to confirm that we are still on track for turn 84, but that the slightest disaster (like disease, which always seems to happen at crucial times in this game) will mean turn 85. We miscalculated, and had to adjust plans because of the current threat, but our econ-wizzards wringed another few beakers out of our empire and we should get there in time. It will mean that the delay (between getting and giving rep) we had hoped for is gone, but we're happy we can at least meet our promises to you.

See you soon,
DeepO

Dear DeepO,

We are glad that we are getting to understand each other's stance better. We are now fully aware of your concerns and - even though not all your assumptions are 100% correct - we agree that in general, you often do have a point.

We understand that setting the price for Monotheism in advance is quite tricky. Let's handle it once it is actually available for trading then... we believe that GS' word is to be trusted and that a "favourable price" will, in fact, be a truly favourable price.

To make things simpler to handle, we suggest that we now work on signing a trade agreement regarding the technologies available in the nearest future: Currency, Construction, and Republic.

As our preliminary negotiations with RPers indicate they have no interest in acquiring The Republic, we no longer ask for resale rights to this team - as they would be virtually useless for us for the foreseeable future.

Thus, the deal we would like to talk about now, boils down to:

1) Legoland would provide Currency & Construction to GS one turn before GS would provide Republic to Legoland. Legoland would grant GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox Controli and Neu Demogyptica. Legoland would also agree that it would not attempt to sell/trade/gift Currency or Construction to Vox Controli, nor Neu Demogyptica.

2) GS would agree to provide Legoland with Republic no later than on (its) Turn 84. GS would grant Legoland rights to resell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War. GS would also agree to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War.

3) To offset the difference in research costs between Currency+Construction and Republic (considering the effective trading potential of the resale rights provided by both teams approximately equal), GS will pay Legoland a balance payment of 70 gold, payable on the same turn as the transfer of Republic happens.


Hope to hear from you soon,

Redstar1

[Harovan]

This message just arrived, along with the turn. It will be sent to DeepO ny PM, too.

Dear DeepO,

Legoland is happy to inform Gathering Storm that we have just
discovered the Currency! As we have already been knowing the art of
Construction for some time, we are now ready to strike the deal we
have been talking about any time now... providing you with Currency
and Construction in exchange for Republic and a balance in gold.

We were not 100% sure whether we'd be able to discover Currency before
the German team (quite a headstart they had!), but we are proud to
inform you we've succeeded! As the price proposed in our recent
draft was reduced a little bit due to this "uncertainty", we would now
respectfully like to make a very small adjustment reflecting the fact
that Gathering Storm would be receiving two technologies no other team
posseses at this moment.

Considering the information from your last message, stating ND was not
interested in trading for either of Currency/Construction with you,
we'd like to offer you the following trade agreement - it is basically
the previous proposal, only slightly adjusted for the latest
developments (text already made into a trade agreement draft):

1) Legoland agrees to provide Currency & Construction to GS one
turn before GS provides Republic to Legoland. Legoland agrees to grant
GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox
Controli. Legoland also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift
Currency or Construction to Vox Controli for 10 turns. GS agrees to
not resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to any other team for 10
turns. GS also agrees to ensure Vox Controli will not trade Currency
or Construction to any other team for at least 10 turns.

2) GS agrees to provide Legoland with Republic no later than on (its)
Turn 84. GS agrees to grant Legoland rights to resell/trade/gift
Republic to Glory of War. GS also agrees to not attempt to
sell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War for 10 turns. Legoland agrees
to not resell/trade/gift Republic to any other team for 10 turns.
Legoland also agrees to ensure Glory of War will not trade Republic to
any other team for at least 10 turns.

3) To offset the difference in research costs between
Currency+Construction and Republic (considering the effective trading
potential of the resale rights provided by both teams equal), GS
agrees to pay Legoland a balance payment of 80 gold, payable on the
same turn as the transfer of Republic happens.

We would appreciate if you post this proposal in your private forum
for discussion and let us know whether your team is interested in
pursuing the deal or not. As the ingame "offer" we made on this very
turn (to help you feel more comfortable and safe about the deal),
suggests, we are ready to provide "our" technologies any time now.

With the sincerest regards,
vondrack, The President of Legoland

[DeepO]

my response:

Thanks Vondrack,

I'll post it on our forum (actually, Sir Ralph already did, but I'll make it into an official poll). You discovering Currency first does change the situation a little... we'll have to check how many teams have the two technologies to set a price.

Maybe it's good if this deal goes through anyhow, even if not formally ratified. I mean, we can keep discussing details, but right now the important things are getting time-pressed: next turn will be your turn 83, AFAIK... We can settle the price discussion (which I'm quite certain is not resolved on our side yet, 80 gold is a lot in this world, we would happily sell republic to the last one for that price) later.

I'm looking forward to our chat tomorrow, but will probably get back to you before that time too.

kind regards,
DeepO

[DeepO]

new one:

Hi Vondrack

We just checked if other teams had it (before I saw this message, actually), and you are right, nobody has it. This does change things a little, even if next turn currency will be discovered by ND (their cost just went down, and they have been working on it for quite some time, presumably). I guess this is what redstar1 meant previously that some of my assumptions were wrong, I genuinely thought that you were going to get at least one of the techs from Bob. If you see something that is so obviously wrong, please correct me

As to the price: it is currently under discussion. Given this new information, we do not feel it is outrageous (at least not everyone feels that way ), however I think the current feeling is more one of disappointment. We were hoping to reach a more 'friendlier' deal, and were discussing deals with you in which lego-GS deals would be less costly on both sides. But it's easy to forget this is our first real deal, and trust has to be earned, or at least backed up by facts. I'm hopeful it will get accepted without any more negotiating to do.

As to waiting before ratifying: no problem whatsoever, I don't think I would have proposed the same if it was our side that needed to make the first step. We're doing our utmost best to ensure ratification before time constraints become an issue.

Last comment: you being the only one having construction is actually quite good news, any interest in delaying trading it to Bob? It would be easy for us to keep it from Vox for a few turns, until for instance ND has discovered curr and is looking for a tech to research. Any delay on Bob, or any waste in beakers is welcome, the only problem can be that we delay Vox's MT.

See you soon,
DeepO

Hello, DeepO!

This is a bit off-record... and feel free to check it with other teams, of course... but we are the only team having Construction (just as we are the only team having Currency ATM). I checked the F4 screen to make sure both Currency and Construction were our exclusives before sending our most recent offer to you. And unless our intel is completely wrong, no other team is close to having Construction... most probably none is actually even researching it.

I understand the time is of importance, but I fear most of my fellow Legos will prefer having our treaty signed (i.e. the balance in gold settled) before actually exchanging technologies. We seem to like doing things kinda "by the book"... I have recently had a tough time explaining why I went a bit ahead, providing one of our trading partners with something that was not actually 100% backed by a signed treaty yet... it ended well for me, the treaty was ratified ex-post, but the lesson was obvious.

Best Regards,
vondrack, The President of Legoland

[DeepO]

Vondrack,

Don't read my last message the wrong way, please remember that I'm not a native English speaker, and therefore have fewer expressions to express my, and our feelings. I agree, and it seems the discussion on our board goes the same way, that given this situation, 80 gold is not outlandish, it would normally even be considered a fair price. However, the disappointment comes because it's no 'special' price, while we are seriously considering you as becoming our 'special' friends. But maybe I can explain this better in chat (these 4000 characterr limits on PMs are seriously hampering me )

lowering it a bit would certainly help, but that's not the issue really, we are not in need of cash right now, and lowering it by e.g. 20 gold would be nice, but actually worth less then half a turn of commerce, and thus not really important. Also, there is no problem with giving you the money right away, we will do it as soon as this deal gets ratified. But we were hoping to be able to compensate the difference in a future tech trade, e.g. by lowering the price on MT, instead of needing to do it now. Just as a question of principle really, or as a gesture of good will, because practically it's the same of course, as now we can simply ask for a fair but not that special deal on MT too and everything is solved. We would have liked that special bond between us, though, the sooner the better.

As to delaying construction to Bob: I can understand you would want to keep a fair attitude with all civs, however please keep an eye on world politics. Maybe Lego's goal in this game is to simply sail along, keeping everyone away from its continent, keeping everyone friendly, and hoping that the rest will war so much that eventually Legoland comes out on top, however judging from the current situation that won't be possible. You will have to choose sides, and the sooner you do it, the more advantage you can get. Of course, you don't have to believe me, but Bob will become an issue for both of us (Vox doesn't even enter in the equation, they were already in a position where they would lose a 1 on 1 war with any civ, and their latest adventure only has worsened their position).

For us, it's quite easy to see why we are a target for Bob, not even counting the threats we get from time to time, but really, you're in exactly the same position only delayed a few turns. I would not be surprised if the moment riders and knights appear, you are being confronted with a multi-civ invasion, especially if GS would show too strong for Bob. Keeping them happy will not work, both ND and GoW are opportunistic in nature (which we are not, or Vox would have been slaughtered already), and will not mind declaring war only turns after they got the last good deal from you. And then there is the issue of RP, who more and more becomes the puppetmaster of Bob, they outright manipulate the other two civs, keeping to their own relative isolation, only defending, and meanwhile building up infrastructure. Both ND and GoW are so focused on their own affairs that they don't even seem to notice it.

Given this situation, stalling tech trades would maybe not be the most polite thing to do to Bob, but it will work. Us two isolationists (and builders, because so far our goals have been exactly what you set out to do) will be helped most if we stick together, with Bob a distant second. I admire your straight-forwardness, but I fear you will get cheated on with this attitude. You may think you strike fair deals with nearly all teams, but in reality, some of the teams you had decent trades with, are simply middlemen for the others that didn't want to trade, robbing you of profit. Watch out for Bob, it's all I can say. We only get glimpses of what is going on, but it's nowhere near beautyful.

Poll update: so far a 6-1 vote in favor of it, although most Yes's a bit reluctantly. Normally, it should get ratified, but I'll have to wait for a few more votes

DeepO

Dear DeepO,

I am sorry to hear that some of your members feel disappointed by how things have shaped out... We actually thought Gathering Storm would be happy to know it would be guaranteed to enter medieval ages as the second team in the game, second only to us.

It has never been our intention to make a deal you would be unhappy about... we've always been looking for a deal that would make both our teams happy. We truly believed that the deal we originally proposed was a fair one... and it was to our grief it has kept getting further and further from the original idea throughout the last couple of turns, possibly also because we were not sure if our research was fast enough to compensate for the headstart ND had had... and thus did not dare to state some facts clearer. However, if you think some gold or a certain delay set for when the balance payment would be due would make your team happier about the deal and might set an even better basis for our future cooperation, then I believe Legoland will not rigidly oppose slightly adjusting the amount. I'd personally make sure your concerns would be presented in the best possible way in our forum. There would, of course, be a limit we would not feel like crossing, as getting less would lead to our members getting unhappy... but few gold pieces should be worth making your team feel less "cornered" or "under pressure".

As for denying Construction to Bobians... I somehow doubt it would have sounded appealing to our team even few turns ago, as we were and genuinely are doing our best to strike fair deals with all other teams in this game... anyway, it is now no longer easily doable, as they already know we have the technologies. Even if it takes 1-2 turns to sign all the deals, we don't believe it would now be possible to keep denying Construction to them without harming our diplomatic relations with Bobians.

I do believe that at the end of the day, Gathering Storm and Legoland shall sign a deal that will make both our teams happy and looking forward to future cooperation.

With the Best Regards,
vondrack, The President of Legoland

[DeepO]

Vondrack,

Thanks for waiting on us! Sorry if this all takes time, democracies tend to do it... and to be perfect we should have needed another day. But, no time for that now, so yes, we hereby officialy ratify your last proposal, you can go ahead and proceed with sending the techs. Next turn, you should be in possession of the republic, and 80 gold.

Let's hope this is just the first in a long series of raitifed proposals

See you this evening (I'm leaving now, so for communication in the mean time, contact Zeit or Sir Ralph) in the chat room, 9pm GMT.

Cherio,
DeepO

Hello, DeepO!

Just a quick note to let you know we are sitting on the save now, waiting for your team to decide upon the trade agreement, because - if your ETA on Republic is still Turn 84 - we should be sending you the techs on this very turn.

Our 24-hour window will be over today at 9:00pm GMT. We would appreciate if you either send us the ratified agreement by that time, or let us know we are to proceed without sending the techs this turn (in case the ETA on Republic is now later than Turn 84).

Best regards,
vondrack

[DeepO]

our 'regular' chat just ended...

[21:13] [9:13pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «3 people»
[21:13] [9:13pm] {vondrack} hello!
[21:13] {DeepO} hi vondrack, I just read your PM
[21:13] [9:13pm] {@zeit} welcome aboard!
[21:13] [9:13pm] {vondrack}
[21:13] {DeepO} I couldn't get into 'poly...
[21:13] {DeepO} if you want to wait: no prob on my side
[21:13] [9:13pm] {@zeit} anyone else about to show up from lego?
[21:13] [9:13pm] {vondrack} not sure
[21:14] [9:14pm] {vondrack} probably not... we expected the chat to start at 9pm GMT
[21:14] {DeepO} the rest doesn't seem to be online
[21:14] {DeepO} isn't it 9 GMT?
[21:14] {DeepO} the summerhour has just changed here...
[21:14] {DeepO} i'm not sure if I'm currently GMT +1
[21:14] [9:14pm] {vondrack} yes, you are
[21:14] [9:14pm] {vondrack} I am GMT+2 now
[21:14] [9:14pm] {@zeit} it's 21:19 GMT now
[21:15] [9:15pm] {vondrack} time changed here as well
[21:15] {DeepO} okay... s we're not too late
[21:15] {DeepO} do we need to wait for the rest?
[21:15] {DeepO} best, probably...
[21:15] [9:15pm] {vondrack} I do not think so
[21:15] {DeepO} okay
[21:15] {DeepO} do you have time, or still struggling with taxes?
[21:16] [9:16pm] {vondrack} let's do the chat forst, I will finish the taxes only then
[21:16] [9:16pm] {vondrack} almost finished anyway
[21:16] {DeepO}
[21:16] {DeepO} okay... I propose that normally, I'll answer for GS, and zeit only as support
[21:16] [9:16pm] {@zeit} i'll be away from keyboard for some time, hope to be back in some 15 mins.
[21:16] [9:16pm] {vondrack} ok
[21:16] {DeepO} we don't want to hammer you from two sides
[21:16] {DeepO} ok
[21:17] {DeepO} so first of all the last deal:
[21:17] {DeepO} we're sorry it took so long to get it right
[21:17] {DeepO} i hope you are happy with it
[21:17] [9:17pm] {vondrack} I will hammer both of you, if necessary...
[21:17] {DeepO} (we more or less are)
[21:17] {DeepO}
[21:17] [9:17pm] {vondrack} yes, happy - hope you are, too
[21:17] {DeepO} a bit of a misunderstanding realy
[21:17] [9:17pm] {vondrack} how come?
[21:18] {DeepO} at first, we polled on the proposal we got from last chat, not realising it was not exactly as you wished for
[21:18] {DeepO} hence the confusion
[21:18] [9:18pm] {vondrack} I see
[21:18] [9:18pm] {vondrack} the thing with Monotheism, right?
[21:18] {DeepO} yep
[21:18] {DeepO} we should discuss that one later
[21:18] {DeepO} as we should receive it from Vox next turn
[21:19] [9:19pm] {vondrack} yeah... we thought about a three-sided deal (us, GS, & Voxes), while you preferred two-sided deals - that is ok
[21:19] {DeepO} I hope you did not get the wrong impression of us, we are happy do have found a possible tech partner here
[21:19] [9:19pm] {vondrack} fine, go on
[21:19] {DeepO} 3-sided deals are not possible
[21:19] {DeepO} certainly not with Vox
[21:19] [9:19pm] {vondrack} no problem - we are happy to work everything out eventually
[21:19] {DeepO} the are a pain in the ass to deal with on a 1 on1 deal
[21:19] {DeepO} the same holds true with other civs
[21:20] {DeepO} and quite possibly with us too
[21:20] [9:20pm] {vondrack} LoL
[21:20] {DeepO} too many variables
[21:20] [9:20pm] {vondrack} exactly
[21:20] {DeepO} so, we have spent the past week, thinking on how we could get rid of Vox
[21:20] {DeepO} (tech-wise, I mean)
[21:20] {DeepO} so we wouldn't be constrained with them anymore
[21:20] {DeepO} the results are only so and so
[21:21] {DeepO} and we were thinking on getting other teams in
[21:21] {DeepO} like eg GoW
[21:21] [9:21pm] {vondrack} listening
[21:21] {DeepO} because you're not the only one keeping relatively good communications with them
[21:21] {DeepO} but still, the risk is too big
[21:21] {DeepO} and we don't think we currently can commit to any 3-sided deal
[21:21] [9:21pm] {vondrack} understood
[21:22] {DeepO} OTOH, we need to avoid Bob gets a 3-pact together
[21:22] {DeepO} because otherwise the game will be over
[21:22] {DeepO} and that's closer then you might think
[21:22] [9:22pm] {vondrack} oh?
[21:22] {DeepO} I mean the unison of Bob
[21:22] {DeepO} Vox is the reason for it, really
[21:23] {DeepO} don't spill this to anyone, but don't be surprised if they settle on Bob again very soon
[21:23] [9:23pm] {vondrack} why the hell they keep trying?
[21:23] {DeepO} again without previous diplo communications
[21:23] [9:23pm] redstar1 (d@host81-132-37-22.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «4 people»
[21:23] [9:23pm] {vondrack} it is futile...
[21:23] [9:23pm] {redstar1} hey
[21:23] {DeepO} simply, they know they can't expand North
[21:23] [9:23pm] {vondrack} hey, redstar!
[21:23] {DeepO} hi redstar1!
[21:24] {DeepO} hmmm... is there any way to send you a log or so, so we don't have to restate everything?
[21:24] {DeepO} not that there has been a lot going on, but still
[21:24] [9:24pm] {redstar1} don't worry about it
[21:24] [9:24pm] {redstar1} i'm sort of cooking atm
[21:24] [9:24pm] {vondrack} I will send the log to redstar later on
[21:25] [9:25pm] {vondrack} no problem
[21:25] {DeepO} btw guys, I had troubles with an upset stomach the whole day, don't be surpised if you see my run
[21:25] [9:25pm] {redstar1} that would be great
[21:25] {DeepO} ok
[21:25] [9:25pm] {vondrack} ok
[21:25] {DeepO} so on to Vox
[21:25] {DeepO} they need to expand somewhere
[21:25] {DeepO} and if you know the situation, you can't blame them for choosing the least corrupted site
[21:26] [9:26pm] {vondrack} true
[21:26] {DeepO} I really think (personal view here, nothing official) that they are going to bring all immortals the can find
[21:26] {DeepO} so that could become interested
[21:26] {DeepO} if Bob unites on this, and starts to invade Vox, we have to respond
[21:26] {DeepO} or we're dead too
[21:26] {DeepO} see the problems rising here?
[21:26] [9:26pm] {redstar1} hmmm if i was bob i wouldn't
[21:26] [9:26pm] {vondrack} tbh, we have very little knowledge about the geography of your landmass, so it may sometimes be difficult to understand motivations for what Voxes do...
[21:27] [9:27pm] {redstar1} not until they have consolidated their own positions
[21:27] {DeepO} don't bet on it
[21:27] {DeepO} one of the reasons is thatone of the Bobians have no iron
[21:27] {DeepO} and Vox and weselves have sources close to the coast
[21:27] {DeepO} landmass: we have a stretched landmass
[21:28] [9:28pm] {vondrack} nice peninsulas like on Legos?
[21:28] {DeepO} where we have all kinds of terrain (good, but also bad), more or less concentrated
[21:28] {DeepO} while Vox has some kind of peninsula, attacjed to us by a long, small neck
[21:28] {DeepO} so corruption kills them if they expand further
[21:29] [9:29pm] {vondrack} I see
[21:29] {DeepO} you most likely know the city they 'loaned' toLux
[21:29] [9:29pm] {vondrack} yes, we know the story
[21:29] {DeepO} that was already the far bounderay of their corruption
[21:29] {DeepO} so they know they can't attack us
[21:29] {DeepO} even forgetting that they would get their asses whooped
[21:30] {DeepO} btw, GoW is going to raxe the city, for many reasons they say
[21:30] {DeepO} and one reason not public: it's fully corrupted as well
[21:30] {DeepO} that city wouldn't help them one bit
[21:30] [9:30pm] {redstar1} of course it is
[21:30] {DeepO} raxe = raze
[21:30] [9:30pm] {redstar1} bound to be a nightmare
[21:31] {DeepO} true
[21:31] {DeepO} sorry guys, need to pause my typing a little
[21:31] [9:31pm] {vondrack} k, np
[21:31] {DeepO} my paralysed hand is starting to hurt
[21:31] {DeepO} so, how do you have experienced GoW, and Bob so far?
[21:32] {DeepO} I think you should have been not so closely connected as us
[21:32] [9:32pm] {vondrack} tbh, GoW is one of our best trading partners
[21:32] {DeepO} could be very interesting to compare notes
[21:32] [9:32pm] {vondrack} GhengisFarb has been very hoest and always keeping promises
[21:32] [9:32pm] {vondrack} *honest
[21:32] {DeepO} GF is cool
[21:32] {DeepO} but don't make him upset
[21:32] {DeepO} his mood swings...
[21:32] [9:32pm] {vondrack} yeah... experienced that
[21:33] {DeepO} what about RP?
[21:33] {DeepO} have they tried to manipulate you too?
[21:33] [9:33pm] {vondrack} well...
[21:33] [9:33pm] {vondrack} ever talked to Togas personally, DeepO?
[21:33] {DeepO} yeah
[21:33] {DeepO} I'm also ambassador to them
[21:33] [9:33pm] {vondrack} it is a lifetime experience, isn't it?
[21:33] {DeepO} we kind of quit talking a long time ago
[21:33] [9:33pm] {vondrack} )
[21:33] {DeepO} true
[21:34] {DeepO} this guy is slick
[21:34] {DeepO} very slick
[21:34] {DeepO} but in a friendly way
[21:34] [9:34pm] {vondrack} but to be fair - we had a misunderstanding or two, but we are now just fine with them
[21:34] [9:34pm] {vondrack} trading a bit, too
[21:34] {DeepO} ah, then you're farther then we are
[21:34] {DeepO} so you would have no interest in delaying, or even blocking trade to bob?
[21:34] [9:34pm] {vondrack} not really
[21:35] [9:35pm] {vondrack} the only team
[21:35] {DeepO} because as the 2 best techers of the game, there is a lot of advantage to be gained here
[21:35] [9:35pm] {vondrack} that has never shown any real interest
[21:35] [9:35pm] {vondrack} in trading with us
[21:35] [9:35pm] {vondrack} was ND
[21:35] {DeepO} the same here
[21:35] {DeepO} they only contact you when they need something fast
[21:35] [9:35pm] {vondrack} yeah... they are weird (ND)
[21:36] {DeepO} well.. I can understand their position, they are being hammered by 'poly teams
[21:36] [9:36pm] {vondrack} we offered them a fine deal on Currency... a win-win one... they refused... politely, but refused... dunno what to think about it
[21:36] {DeepO} so everything becomes an aggresive act
[21:36] {DeepO} interesting
[21:36] {DeepO} if you want my idea
[21:36] [9:36pm] {vondrack} yes?
[21:36] {DeepO} they want to keep their options open on Bob
[21:36] [9:36pm] {vondrack} quite likely, yes
[21:36] {DeepO} does RP researches rep right now?
[21:37] {DeepO} the same thing there: we were thinking on offering them to stop research on it
[21:37] [9:37pm] {vondrack} I would seriously doubt it
[21:37] {DeepO} (only an idea, we would need your ok, of course)
[21:37] {DeepO} but that won't do any good, I think
[21:37] {DeepO} they won't go for it
[21:37] [9:37pm] {vondrack} re: RP
[21:37] {DeepO} yes
[21:37] [9:37pm] {vondrack} I do not think RP will go for Republic too soon
[21:37] {DeepO} ?
[21:37] [9:37pm] {vondrack} if you check the military advisor screen
[21:38] [9:38pm] {vondrack} you will find out (perhaps you won't, but we do)
[21:38] [9:38pm] {vondrack} that they have the largest military in the whole world
[21:38] {DeepO} don't get fooled by the mil advisor
[21:38] [9:38pm] {vondrack} they would probably have tough time paying the upkeep for it
[21:38] {DeepO} our army is smallest
[21:38] {DeepO} not really
[21:38] {DeepO} upkeep is 1 gold per unit
[21:39] {DeepO} if you have only 10, verry good units, you have the biggest power, but pay the lowest upkeep
[21:39] {DeepO} again, don't get fooled by the mil advisor
[21:39] {DeepO} GoW sunds rather weak
[21:39] [9:39pm] {@zeit} i'm back!
[21:39] {DeepO} but they have been saving horsies and cash... and riders are close
[21:39] {DeepO} hi zeit
[21:39] {DeepO} lot of reading to do
[21:39] [9:39pm] {vondrack} hmmm... maybe you are right about the military advisor...
[21:40] [9:40pm] {@zeit} i see you discuss forighn politics
[21:40] [9:40pm] {@zeit} that's good
[21:40] {DeepO} well, don't believe for a minute we are the weakest around
[21:40] {DeepO} but it's good to see that RP is building forces
[21:40] {DeepO} because we can't check that...
[21:41] [9:41pm] {@zeit} no one likes to keep is forces idle, maybe they're up to something...
[21:41] {DeepO} thei're boundary is all jungle
[21:41] [9:41pm] {vondrack} my impression is they are getting ready for their neighbours' UUs...
[21:41] {DeepO} so to protect, and guard that, they will need swords
[21:42] {DeepO} in jungle, a sword can take on a rider
[21:42] {DeepO} easily
[21:42] {DeepO} RP is not going to attack a Bobian civ soon
[21:42] {DeepO} because they know that the longer they can keep isolated, they will grow stronger
[21:43] {DeepO} you might have some decent land to work, but I bet RP has double tht land
[21:43] {DeepO} so, if RP is going to war, it's going to be either with us two, or with Vox
[21:44] [9:44pm] {redstar1} you are concerned?
[21:44] [9:44pm] {vondrack} hmmm... they (RPers) have posed very friendly towards us... at least so far
[21:44] {DeepO} and they have reasons to believe that GS and Vox will stick together, so Lego is a better target than hoped for
[21:44] [9:44pm] {redstar1} perhaps
[21:44] {DeepO} sure, Togas is always friendly... up until the moment they stab you in the back
[21:44] {DeepO} look at Lux
[21:44] {DeepO} GS concerned:
[21:45] {DeepO} yes, more or less
[21:45] [9:45pm] {vondrack} actually, RPers' role in the Lux demise is something we know very little about
[21:45] {DeepO} we know that in the near future, we will get embargoed by Bob
[21:45] {DeepO} okay, RP -Lux first
[21:45] [9:45pm] {vondrack} great, thanks
[21:45] {DeepO} RP had NAPs with all three civs
[21:45] {DeepO} as did the other three
[21:46] {DeepO} Lux and ND's tension had been building long
[21:46] {DeepO} and there were reasons enough to find
[21:46] [9:46pm] {redstar1} are you interested in supporting a United Nations?
[21:46] {DeepO} one sec, please
[21:46] [9:46pm] {@zeit} the usual warrior- scout intrusions and the like...
[21:46] [9:46pm] {vondrack} yeah
[21:46] {DeepO} so, once they knew ND was going to attack Lux, they warned them of their NAP
[21:47] {DeepO} and asked ND to postpone their attack one more turn, because then they did not need to attack them
[21:47] {DeepO} and they did not want that
[21:47] {DeepO} it was the first manipulation trick we knew
[21:47] {DeepO} they alone decided when the war started
[21:47] {DeepO} and who was involved
[21:48] {DeepO} it even went so far as to push Lux in convincing them that war with ND was going to be impossible to avoid
[21:48] {DeepO} so Luc 'took initiative', and declared war again
[21:48] {DeepO} themselves, i mean
[21:48] {DeepO} and Luc should be Lux
[21:48] {DeepO}
[21:48] [9:48pm] {vondrack} sure
[21:48] {DeepO} the list continues on their diplo tricks
[21:49] {DeepO} we firmly believe RP is the smartest when it comes to deal with the other teams
[21:49] {DeepO} and thus become the most dangerous team in this game
[21:49] {DeepO} one sec
[21:49] {DeepO} not running yet
[21:50] [9:50pm] {@zeit} they have succfuly claimed half of Bob, and helped the others making Vox claim "unfair"
[21:50] [9:50pm] {@zeit} Now that's irony
[21:50] [9:50pm] {vondrack} half Bob?!?
[21:50] [9:50pm] {@zeit} from the jungle and south- maybe not half, but close to
[21:51] {DeepO} more actually
[21:51] [9:51pm] {vondrack} wow... now I understand why they build up their military
[21:51] [9:51pm] {vondrack} they have lots of land to defend
[21:51] {DeepO} if you believe Aeson's analysis of the map generator, they have more land then above the jungle
[21:51] [9:51pm] {@zeit} more importantly- they managed to secure themselves a decent and quite land, in which they can settle and develop
[21:52] [9:52pm] {@zeit} no settlers running around their borders...
[21:52] [9:52pm] {vondrack} yeah... like little Voxes
[21:52] {DeepO} that's not the problem really
[21:52] {DeepO} i mean RPs landsize
[21:52] {DeepO} but combine this with their cunning, and you got a winner...
[21:53] {DeepO} no, we know the risks here
[21:53] {DeepO} and we have goals in this game
[21:53] {DeepO} we want to stay alive right until the last minute
[21:53] {DeepO} and RP is a risk to us
[21:53] {DeepO} (and to you, as explained above)
[21:53] {DeepO} this only gets confirmed with the current tech thing
[21:54] {DeepO} where they refuse to trade with us
[21:54] {DeepO} so... you can expect more of this in the future
[21:54] {DeepO} also when they would be first to research a tech
[21:54] {DeepO} and if we're right, they should be a very close 3rd on commerce
[21:54] {DeepO} right after you
[21:55] {DeepO} so, to counter
[21:55] [9:55pm] {vondrack} I am not sure about this
[21:55] {DeepO} we should think of ways to offset this
[21:55] {DeepO} how so?
[21:55] [9:55pm] {vondrack} (RP economy)
[21:55] [9:55pm] {vondrack} they do not seem to research very fast
[21:55] {DeepO} no, but they have been saving cash too
[21:55] [9:55pm] {@zeit} maybe they're not researching...
[21:55] {DeepO} and given their isolation, and their land (grass, lots of it, and rivers are abundant too)
[21:56] [9:56pm] {@zeit} you said they're working on swordsmen, right?
[21:56] {DeepO} they simply can't be farther behind
[21:56] [9:56pm] {vondrack} that was DeepO's idea (re: swordsman)... but I find it quite reasonable
[21:56] {DeepO} well, as the best in commerce there are tricks to check on the rest of the teams
[21:56] {DeepO} which is why we were relatively certain of your economy as well
[21:57] {DeepO} and which means I can honestly say that a few turns back, RP was at most 2 gold behind you, as far as we can determine
[21:57] {DeepO} i'm not certain on the current situation
[21:58] {DeepO} ok, back to how we can counter
[21:58] [9:58pm] {vondrack} ok
[21:58] {DeepO} i mean, we fear that in a few techs time, we will be left out of the loop
[21:58] {DeepO} as Bob has 3 civs, which could simultanously research 3 paths
[21:59] {DeepO} and 3 paths is the most you can get to in the middel ages
[21:59] {DeepO} so, we need to either break that circle of Bobians
[21:59] {DeepO} by taking one of them out of the loop
[21:59] {DeepO} either by deal, or by war
[21:59] [9:59pm] {vondrack} by war?
[21:59] {DeepO} (we are thinking on both options here)
[21:59] {DeepO} yeah, war
[21:59] {DeepO} preemptive, because otherwise we could be toast ourselves
[22:00] {DeepO} we're quite happy on our continent, but it's not the easiest to defend
[22:00] {DeepO} being thin and all
[22:00] [10:00pm] {@zeit} If done right, the Bobians could be broken apart
[22:00] {DeepO} yes
[22:00] {DeepO} so they can't get a monopoly anymore
[22:00] {DeepO} but we could
[22:00] {DeepO} but, of course, this will not work with GS alone
[22:00] {DeepO} and Vox really has nothing to do with it
[22:01] {DeepO} we need Legoland
[22:01] {DeepO} in some way...
[22:01] {DeepO} we think it is in the best interest of you guys too
[22:01] [10:01pm] {vondrack} yeah, we count on our future cooperation, of course
[22:01] {DeepO} but maybe you find it diffirently
[22:01] {DeepO} of course
[22:01] {DeepO} but given the opinion on our board, that is a given
[22:02] {DeepO} GS is ready to enter a long term alliance, at least for techs, with Lego
[22:02] {DeepO} but we think that later on, it should also provide options to block the progress on Bob
[22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} I do not see any obstacles to such a long term tech alliance
[22:02] {DeepO} or it won't mean anything...
[22:03] {DeepO} that's already nice to hear, but how far would you be willing to go?