DIPLO: Legoland diplomatic contact LOG

[DeepO]

[22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} even though at least for the nearest future, we would be sort of cautious to tick Bobians (RPers, to be honest) off
[22:03] {DeepO} very true
[22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} they are very close to us
[22:03] {DeepO} I see
[22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} and we are not fully developed military-wise
[22:03] {DeepO} so the risk is even greater then thought
[22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} so, while we are all for trading with you, we would probably hesistate a lot about embargoing Bobians
[22:04] {DeepO} well, right now it's not really an option
[22:04] {DeepO} we can't piss them off
[22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} at least until we feel safe here
[22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} yes
[22:04] {DeepO} how long would you need to feel safe?
[22:04] {DeepO} I mean a rough guess, of course
[22:05] {DeepO} because the longer we wait, the bigger the risk
[22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} 25-30 turns?
[22:05] {DeepO} okay
[22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} it is rather difficult to tell...
[22:05] {DeepO} let's say we need about 15 turns to feel perfectly safe here
[22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} we were lacking certain key techs for a long time
[22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} understood
[22:06] {DeepO} depending on when we get to knights, of course
[22:06] {DeepO} well, I wouldn't propose to start embargoing now
[22:06] {DeepO} but it really has to be an option
[22:07] {DeepO} if we want to enter a long term deal
[22:07] [10:07pm] {@zeit} but limiting the trades, perhaps
[22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} hmmm... perhaps "offering worse deals"?
[22:07] [10:07pm] {vondrack} yes
[22:07] [10:07pm] {@zeit} putting NDA's on every deal with Bob
[22:07] {DeepO} limiting: not really, delaying by 1 or 2 turns could already help
[22:07] {DeepO} vondrack, one of the things that both teams are going to need to accept, is that sometimes short term gain is not that good when compared with long term gain
[22:08] {DeepO} if this means that we sometimes have to refuse income on a tech by selling it, so be it
[22:08] {DeepO} we were thinking on structures to compensate this, to divide the 'loss' between our two teams
[22:08] [10:08pm] {vondrack} agreed
[22:08] {DeepO} but it all depends on haw far we can get here
[22:09] {DeepO} offering NDAs on all tech deals to the rest of the world might be the first thing to decide
[22:09] {DeepO} if we both agree on a 10 turn NDA for any tech we are going to distribute in the future, we're one step farther
[22:09] {DeepO} (not between ourselves, of course)
[22:09] [10:09pm] {vondrack} like not allowing them to trade the techs to third parties?
[22:09] {DeepO} yep, that's the idea
[22:09] [10:09pm] {vondrack} that sounds reasonable
[22:10] {DeepO} that way, we can at least prevent being ripped of on techs
[22:10] {DeepO} so that who we sell to, just splits the price with their partner
[22:10] {DeepO} there is one problem with this: we are going to need to expect NDAs on their techs too
[22:10] {DeepO} which is one of the reasons we couldn't really offer it to Vox on the techs we just sent them
[22:11] {DeepO} (we'll ask for it, though, but we can't demand)
[22:11] {DeepO} because otherwise, MT has to be bought from Vox
[22:11] {DeepO} and their price would be higher
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} I see...
[22:11] {DeepO} yeah, I know it's not ideal
[22:11] {DeepO} Vox really is a diplo headache to us
[22:11] [10:11pm] {@zeit} The arrangement from Vox will be changed in the future, though
[22:11] {DeepO} very soon, I hope
[22:12] [10:12pm] {@zeit} Hopefully they won't be around alot longer...
[22:12] {DeepO} no, but that is another problem to us
[22:12] {DeepO} because we don't really need Bobians on our continent
[22:12] {DeepO} brb
[22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} k
[22:14] {DeepO} back
[22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} good
[22:14] {DeepO} sorry... my stomach ;(
[22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} I feel for you
[22:14] {DeepO} thanks
[22:14] {DeepO} okay
[22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} do you think Bobians have means to follow Voxes to your landmass?
[22:14] {DeepO} yes they have
[22:14] {DeepO} if the stick together
[22:14] {DeepO} they
[22:15] {DeepO} that's the whole clue, basically
[22:15] {DeepO} Bob and our continent are so close, that if you build a port close enough, you can ferry 4 units with one galley, each turn
[22:15] {DeepO} which is why the Vox city was so strategically important
[22:16] {DeepO} and 4 riders... ouch
[22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} the same would apply for us
[22:16] {DeepO} ouch again
[22:17] {DeepO} better adequately defend that part of your world
[22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} fortunately, we are a bit further overseas )
[22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} yeah, we know... that's what we need those 25-30 turns for
[22:17] {DeepO} okay, but in 25 turns, Vox might have disappeared from this game
[22:18] {DeepO} we could certainly take them out, defending our own territory, in that time span
[22:18] {DeepO} we have been building iinfrastructure, as said, and it starts to pay of
[22:18] {DeepO} but you're not doing that bad either... about 9 cities yourself, right?
[22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} just a sec
[22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} I will check
[22:19] [10:19pm] {vondrack} only 8
[22:19] [10:19pm] {@zeit} close enough, DeepO
[22:19] {DeepO} aha, could also be so... we're a bit farther ahead
[22:19] {DeepO} (not much, but blame that on disease)
[22:20] {DeepO} so our production can match anyone...
[22:20] {DeepO} btw, RP has about the same numbers
[22:20] {DeepO} ND and GoW are around 7 cities (a little less, maybe)
[22:20] {DeepO} Vox has 5, AFAIK
[22:21] {DeepO} okay, let's get to the other deals
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} ok
[22:21] {DeepO} first of all MT
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} go ahead
[22:21] [10:21pm] {redstar1} where'd you get the intel?
[22:21] {DeepO} analysis
[22:21] {DeepO} but it's good to check
[22:21] {DeepO} I was pretty sure on your 8 cities
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} aha... something we are not that good in, apparently
[22:22] {DeepO} but had to say one more, so you wouldn't get offended
[22:22] {DeepO} bah, some things GS is superb in
[22:22] {DeepO} others not so
[22:22] {DeepO} I'm not so economical as eg nbarclay, or Aeson
[22:22] {DeepO} and war is purely a Theseus / Arrian thing
[22:23] {DeepO} but these guys have not been around a lot
[22:23] {DeepO} noothing to do
[22:23] [10:23pm] {vondrack} all the Strat Forum regulars, I know...
[22:23] {DeepO}
[22:23] {DeepO} whiich is our problem
[22:23] {DeepO} nobody wants to fully trade with us
[22:23] {DeepO} thinking we'll backstab, perhaps...
[22:24] {DeepO} which is absolutely not needed, and no intention of ours
[22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} are you saying we sjhouldn't be trading with you?
[22:24] {DeepO} not at all
[22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} j/k
[22:24] {DeepO} but know that we have some kind of stigma we carry
[22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} not a problem
[22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} hmmm, I would think just the opposite - for such people, it would be nothing to be proud of if all they'd do would be a nice backstab...
[22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} i forsee a bright future for us
[22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} but I may be wrong, of course... )
[22:24] {DeepO} so if word would leak out that we are getting very close, the willingness of others to deal with you might drop
[22:25] {DeepO} well, backstabbing is not an option, really
[22:25] {DeepO} we agreed to be the most honorable team on the game, and we will do exactly that
[22:25] {DeepO} if it means we won't win, no problem whatsoever
[22:26] {DeepO} at least we had good fun
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack}
[22:26] {DeepO} so techs:
[22:26] [10:26pm] {vondrack} ok
[22:26] {DeepO} i suggest we let this simmer a bit
[22:26] {DeepO} so both teams can think on what they want to accomplish
[22:26] {DeepO} and what they would agree to give up with
[22:27] {DeepO} on our side, one thiing is certain, we will drop Vox in the future
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} that is a good idea, I agree
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} re: simmering
[22:27] [10:27pm] {vondrack} perhaps re: Voxes, too )
[22:27] {DeepO} if keeping Vox around is going to hamper us with Lego
[22:27] {DeepO}
[22:27] {DeepO} but, we've got the first steps to take
[22:27] {DeepO} coordinating our research
[22:28] [10:28pm] {@zeit} coordinating deals with Bob, perhaps
[22:28] {DeepO} first of all, we see reachin knights as 1st prioirity
[22:28] {DeepO} i don't know where you stand on this
[22:28] {DeepO} we are set to start on feudalism
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} hmm... I hope we will complement you nicely
[22:28] {DeepO} ok
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} we do not really look towards Feu
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} as we have our Mercs
[22:28] {DeepO} true
[22:28] [10:28pm] {redstar1} we see atomic weapons as priority
[22:28] [10:28pm] {redstar1}
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} so Feu alone is not worth the research for us
[22:29] {DeepO} but we first of all need it for knights
[22:29] {DeepO} not feudalism
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} Chivalry... oh, that will something different
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} right, yes
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} but:
[22:29] {DeepO} we are not going to defend with pikes, if we can attack with knights
[22:29] {DeepO} yes?
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} Feudalism would really be choice #3 for us
[22:29] {DeepO} which is #2?
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} so if you are determined to go for it
[22:30] {DeepO} I know #1
[22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} then you may rest assured we will make a good deal in the future
[22:30] {DeepO} okay, no problem
[22:30] {DeepO} we shold complement...
[22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} i'm off to bed lads
[22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} i'll read the log tomorrow
[22:30] {DeepO} I take it you wouldn need MT first?
[22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} ok, g'night!
[22:30] [10:30pm] {vondrack} yes
[22:30] {DeepO} bye, redstar1
[22:30] [10:30pm] {@zeit} bye bye
[22:31] [10:31pm] redstar1 (d@host81-132-37-22.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has parted. «3 people»
[22:31] {DeepO} you are going to get in anarchy, next turn, no?
[22:31] {DeepO} so that shuld mean that we can see which tech Vox gives us
[22:31] {DeepO} and if it's different from MT, get you working on MT
[22:31] {DeepO} while we get feud
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} nope, I do not think so... we have several builds under way, which we would like to finish first
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} units, to be exact
[22:31] {DeepO} maybe it would be best if, in case we don't get MT from Vox, we research it
[22:32] {DeepO} ah, okay
[22:32] {DeepO} any eta?
[22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} not yet
[22:32] {DeepO} no matter
[22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} it will probably take a couple of turns
[22:32] {DeepO} ok
[22:32] {DeepO} wht are you researching now?
[22:32] {DeepO} if I may ask
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} hmmm... dunno if it is not supposed to be secret... hell, doesn't matter... nothing, actually
[22:33] {DeepO} that's best
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} we need some cash for upgrades
[22:33] {DeepO} I was going to suggest that
[22:33] {DeepO} okay, no prob
[22:33] {DeepO} you should receive 80 gold next turn
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack}
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} yes, thank you!
[22:33] {DeepO} so, let's say you will stay on cash, until we know what Vox gives at least
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} yes, that is quite likely
[22:34] {DeepO} if they don't give MT, we start on that
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} you = GS?
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} or us?
[22:34] {DeepO} simply because we have the best research, and MT is the most expensive
[22:34] [10:34pm] {vondrack} yeah, I see
[22:34] {DeepO} you=lego
[22:35] {DeepO} if they give MT, we will go on with feu
[22:35] {DeepO} and you can research #3 (forgot which
[22:35] {DeepO} or even theology, perhaps
[22:35] {DeepO} this should take both of us to knights asap
[22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} yes, those are fine options
[22:36] {DeepO} maybe one problem: if you're not interested in feu, I take it that wonder build yur going for is not supposed to be a prebuild for Sun Tsu?
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} nope
[22:36] {DeepO} we kind of thought that would have been a good option for you
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} Sun Tsu?
[22:37] {DeepO} but happyness would perhaps be fine too
[22:37] {DeepO} yeah
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} we are more concerned about happiness
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} we got screwed on luxuries
[22:37] {DeepO} no barracks to pay upkeep for
[22:37] {DeepO} ah, ok
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} and we kind a fear that Bobians will simply embargo us on them
[22:37] {DeepO} of course, we would like to start trading those asap
[22:37] {DeepO} yeah, i was going to mention that
[22:37] {DeepO} we don't have many sorts (2)
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} us only 1
[22:38] {DeepO} actually, 1 at the moment, but we should be able to get 2
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} Dyes, to be price
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} *precise
[22:38] {DeepO} furs here
[22:38] {DeepO} incent later...
[22:38] {DeepO} are you considering getting monarchy somewhere?
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} not really
[22:39] {DeepO} we have been asking around, but nobody is interested...
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} not viable for us
[22:39] {DeepO} only for the HG, of course
[22:39] {DeepO} because there is no WW in MP
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} yes
[22:39] {DeepO} well, I'm not sure if I can offer you anything specific on MT right now
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} I understand that
[22:40] {DeepO} so would it be an option for you, if we simply promise to send it immediately
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} we went ahead with our deal, full aware of that MT would be negotiated later
[22:40] {DeepO} and discuss price in the coming few days?
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} I would rather have the price set in advance, if you do not mind
[22:41] {DeepO} I was proposing to make this one a gold trade too, simply because it would be easier from then on
[22:41] {DeepO} okay
[22:41] {DeepO} in that case, I was thinking (personally), to set it below half of the current beaker cost
[22:41] [10:41pm] {vondrack} as we have seen with our úprevious deal, it is sometimes easy to misunderstand the extend which the other party aims for
[22:41] {DeepO} meaning if you're the 3rd to get it, we offer you less then half that price.
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} hmmm.... I will keep that it mind
[22:42] {DeepO} but we'll need to discuss things with Vox here first
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} understood
[22:42] {DeepO} well... the problem is of course, that if possible, we will offer it to Bob too
[22:42] {DeepO} in which case, your price will drop considerably
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} sure, we expect that
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} I mean: we expect you would offer it to Bobians )
[22:43] {DeepO} but really, there is too few to say about that, I will get back to you in PM
[22:43] {DeepO} well, we don't know if we're allowed to
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} ok, thanks
[22:43] {DeepO} because if Vox is thinking on resettling Bob, the have to keep something behind to pay for the use of land
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} that's true
[22:43] {DeepO} so that is going to be a tricky situation
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} but I doubt their tech would be enough
[22:44] {DeepO} okay, further, I promise I will try to more precisly set out some rough document, detailing our plans for future coop
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} Bobians are very touchy when it comes to their landmass
[22:44] {DeepO} true
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} ok, good idea
[22:45] {DeepO} but I wonder how much of this is simply RP pulling strings on the puppets
[22:45] {DeepO} yeah, it's good to see you share some of our concerns
[22:45] {DeepO} and that military threat is also well-known to you
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} yes, it is
[22:45] {DeepO} I take it you are first of all interested in defending, not attacking?
[22:46] {DeepO} or do you feel the urge for new land soon too?
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} of course - we are "builders" by definition )
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} so we build
[22:46] {DeepO} well, we have been builders, but were this is going to lead, I don't know
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} not wage war, unless inevitable
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} we are currently in no shape to try hopping overseas
[22:46] {DeepO} and as said before, perhaps the only way of stopping Bob is going to be military
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} especially since the closest neighbour is RPers with their huge military
[22:47] {DeepO} well... a lot can change in a few turns
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} that's true, of course
[22:47] {DeepO} let's see what those riders are going to do to Bob first
[22:47] {DeepO} that could become very interesting
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} agreed
[22:48] {DeepO} if it means GoW would be gone, we simply need to epxand onto Bob
[22:48] {DeepO} but I don't think we'll mind that hard, our territory is almost fully build
[22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} to prevent ND & RPers from becoming even stronger?
[22:48] {DeepO} yes
[22:48] {DeepO} ND especially
[22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} I see
[22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} yes
[22:49] {DeepO} that's one good team, playing there
[22:49] {DeepO} they have every reason to be so cocky in their negotiations
[22:49] {DeepO} (and no, it's not a language thing)
[22:50] {DeepO} so, I'll get back to you on plans for deals
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} ok
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} thanks a lot
[22:50] {DeepO} I suggest you do the same, and we compare notes next chat
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} will do
[22:50] [10:50pm] {vondrack} next Sunday, 9pm GMT?
[22:50] {DeepO} and in the mean time, we will get you updated on the tech situation
[22:51] {DeepO} and come up with a deal on MT
[22:51] {DeepO} yeah, 9pm would be superb
[22:51] {DeepO}
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} great
[22:51] {DeepO} anything else?
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} yeah... those bloody tax forms... )
[22:51] {DeepO} lol
[22:51] [10:51pm] {@zeit} lol
[22:51] {DeepO} sorry to hear that
[22:52] {DeepO} zeit, you're still here?
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} well, it is just once in a year time, thankfully
[22:52] [10:52pm] {@zeit} we all have our problems- i'll have about 5 hours of sleep this night
[22:52] {DeepO} do you have anything further to ask
[22:52] [10:52pm] {@zeit} call me an addict...
[22:52] {DeepO}
[22:52] {DeepO} 5 hours should be enough
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} I believe that you have told me so much that I will need some time to mull it over
[22:52] {DeepO} not that I don't get another 9 or so
[22:52] {DeepO} that's okay
[22:52] {DeepO} I hope it has been informative
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} thanks for everything
[22:52] {DeepO} never be afraid to ask
[22:52] [10:52pm] {vondrack} yes, it was
[22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} I appreciate that
[22:53] {DeepO} as you can see, i've got lots of opinions to share
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@zeit} see you next sunday. bye!
[22:53] {DeepO} bye!
[22:53] [10:53pm] Quits: zeit (Zeit@slip139-92-208-118.tel.il.prserv.net) (Quit
[22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} well, then, both of you: take care & good luck!
[22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} bye
[22:53] {DeepO} bye
[22:53] [10:53pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has parted. «1 person»
[23:15] *** Disconnected
Session Close: Sun Mar 30 23:15:32 2003

[DeepO]

A PM titled "Hi trade buddies!"

Hi redstar1,

Nice to know there were no problems, let's hope this trend continues

As to Monotheism: from one side I'm happy, as it will make deals probably easier to strike. OTOH, though, it would have been nice if you mentioned this in chat, just between friends. It would have made us focus more on striking a deal right then (if this was your intention, of course). But it's okay, the sooner you get it, the better.

See you next Sunday (possibly before then too )

DeepO

DeepO,

Seems our trades went to plan, great stuff! Nice doing business with you. Hope we can deal a lot more in the future. Not sure there is anything urgent to discuss so unless you can think of anything then I guess the sunday night chat is the best time to catch up.

Oh, we got a good deal on Mono from another source so no need to worry ourselves on that one!

Regards

Redstar1

[DeepO]

Dear redstar1, vondrack, and quantum_mechani,

I was going to mention this in chat tomorrow, but it may be better to offer this now, so you can discuss this proposal amongst yourselves first. Debate tomorrow will only get more focussed

We're currently, as agreed, on our way towards Feudalism. However, it seems the rest of the world, including you, is not really up to speed yet, too many issues need attention, and research is nobody's priority, it seems. We understand that defense can be more important, however as we're not so pressed, maybe we can speed up things a little on the research side of things.

There has been a bit of talk on offering feudalism to everybody in the world at the same time, and quite soon too. Maybe we can after that fit in another tech, and end at about the same moment other teams get the tech they are currently going for. In your case, it would seem best to us that we deal with this tech separately from another one: by the time you get Theology, we would have, or be very close to discovering Chivalry.

So, our proposal:
We offer you Feudalism for 200 gold, or a 12 gpt 'loan' for 20 turns. It comes with an NDA, in that you are not allowed to trade it to any other team for 10 turns after receiving it. Further, we will guarantee that at the moment of offering, we will be the only team with access to the technology, and nobody else will be able to research it independently, and thus sell it to you, for at least 5 more turns.

I hope you like these terms, they are quite fair in our eyes. We can discuss other options of payment, but the price will be fixed, it could however be transformed in other tradeable stuff

Re: long term tech deal: I've got quite a few ideas on that, but haven't found any time this week to put them on paper. I would be thrilled to discuss them, and see your view on it. But let's keep it for the chat

And one point of advice: don't stay in despotism too long, the sooner you get to republic, the better. Settlers and other units can be rushed easily with the extra cash it generates, if that is your concern.

DeepO

[DeepO]

[22:24] [10:24pm] redstar1 (d@host213-123-149-80.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «3 people»
[22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} hey
[22:24] [10:24pm] {redstar1} not here long
[22:24] {DeepO} hi!
[22:24] [10:24pm] {@zeit} hello there
[22:24] {DeepO} I was hoping you got my message
[22:24] {DeepO} ok, so let's be fast then
[22:24] {DeepO} did you get my last message
[22:24] {DeepO} ?
[22:25] [10:25pm] {redstar1} sure
[22:25] {DeepO} what do you think of it?
[22:25] [10:25pm] {redstar1} yeah the feud deal one?
[22:25] {DeepO} yeah
[22:25] [10:25pm] {@zeit} i'll let you guys be alone for a little while
[22:25] [10:25pm] {redstar1} still discussing it, tbh feud isn't a priority for us
[22:25] {DeepO} I can understand
[22:25] [10:25pm] {redstar1} we'd be more interested in a deal for feudalism+ chivalry
[22:25] {DeepO} the problem is, the way our research is going, we will have chivalry by the time you can finish theo
[22:26] [10:26pm] {redstar1} good research eh?
[22:26] {DeepO} so, price isn't the issue, we can make something combined with 2 techs on our side, 1 one your, and some gold for compensation
[22:26] {DeepO} yeah...
[22:26] {DeepO} you don't want to know
[22:26] [10:26pm] {redstar1} hehe
[22:26] {DeepO} but it's safe to say we are over double yours, for the time being
[22:26] [10:26pm] {redstar1} most probably
[22:26] [10:26pm] {redstar1} we haven't switched govt yet
[22:27] {DeepO} well... any plans on getting to rep ?
[22:27] [10:27pm] {redstar1} yeah we have a fair idea on what we plan to do
[22:27] [10:27pm] {redstar1} getting some infrastructure sorted before the anarchy
[22:27] {DeepO} ok. I wouldn't ask, but in this case, it affects us too... simply curious here
[22:27] [10:27pm] {redstar1} shouldn't be too long
[22:28] {DeepO} sure, but I hope you're doing it for pop rushing, as otherwise there is little point in delaying
[22:28] {DeepO} (or it should concern an aquaduct, perhaps)
[22:28] [10:28pm] {redstar1} it wouldn't be any secret about poprushing
[22:28] {DeepO} well, anyway, assuming you will be able to get to theo fast, we still have a bit of a problem
[22:29] {DeepO} which we could both exploit, buut GS alone not so
[22:29] [10:29pm] {redstar1} yeah we aren't sure on our tech/trade strategy yet
[22:29] {DeepO} the thing is: it's practically certain that war will break out on Bob, the moment they get theirs UUs
[22:29] [10:29pm] {redstar1} trying to get a bit of cash together as well, for trades and maybe helping things along
[22:29] {DeepO} which means that everythiing will be spend on upgrades, instead of on tech
[22:29] {DeepO} (Bob)
[22:30] {DeepO} so, either research halts for a while, because we do the same
[22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} yeah we can understand that
[22:30] {DeepO} or we try to get some scheme going, in which we dictate research pace, and Bob pays us the gold we need
[22:30] {DeepO} we want to try this out with Feud
[22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} what i would suggest is give us a couple more days on the deal outlined by yourself
[22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} until we have a better idea of where we are going
[22:30] {DeepO} sure, no problem
[22:30] [10:30pm] {redstar1} and what resources we have etc
[22:31] {DeepO} we are still very hard discussing this ourselves
[22:31] {DeepO} but it's hard to do this, if we don't know Lego's stance
[22:31] [10:31pm] {redstar1} is it ok for Nimitz to take over here?
[22:31] {DeepO} sure, just invite him
[22:31] [10:31pm] {redstar1} he is Foreign minister
[22:31] [10:31pm] DeepO sets mode: +o redstar1
[22:32] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User Nimitz has been invited to: #milkshake
[22:32] [10:32pm] *apolyton.net(@#milkshake)* DeepO invited Nimitz into channel #milkshake.
[22:32] [10:32pm] {@redstar1} i apologise but i'm a bit busy
[22:32] {DeepO} np
[22:32] {DeepO} I don't have all the time of the world either
[22:32] {DeepO} buut some of these things need to be discussed
[22:32] [10:32pm] Nimitz (Nimitz@user-v8o1d02.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined. «4 people»
[22:32] {DeepO} hi!
[22:32] [10:32pm] {@redstar1} hey nimitz
[22:32] [10:32pm] {Nimitz} hello
[22:32] {DeepO} quick recap
[22:32] [10:32pm] {@redstar1} i have to go afk but i'll keep a lookout and a log:
[22:32] {DeepO} okay
[22:32] [10:32pm] {Nimitz} ok
[22:33] {DeepO} so, recap
[22:33] {DeepO} . I was asking on the deal we send you
[22:33] {DeepO} on feud
[22:33] {DeepO} and mentiongin that the way we get paid is not an issue to us
[22:33] [10:33pm] {Nimitz} just a sec got a PM to check
[22:33] {DeepO} so, if you would rather have a combined chivalry + feud - theo + gold deal, np
[22:33] {DeepO} okay
[22:34] {DeepO} I'll type a little
[22:34] {DeepO} the thing is, we too are at crossroads in the game
[22:34] {DeepO} we have a great opportunity here, but we are uncertain we want to do it, and we can't do it alone
[22:34] {DeepO} atm, our research is huge, compared to the other teams
[22:35] {DeepO} and once rep will come, this will change
[22:35] {DeepO} but because Bob will get into a war pretty soon, most likely the moment they get knights
[22:35] {DeepO} research will practically halt on their side
[22:35] {DeepO} so, we can either stop ourselves, as we also need money (and you too)
[22:36] {DeepO} or, we can research at full speed, and let the others pay for our tech slider
[22:36] {DeepO} in thiis last case, we need a partner: Lego
[22:36] {DeepO} again, this is only a wild idea, and no proposal, but I just want to let you know one of the possibilities in this game
[22:36] {DeepO} and want to hear your ideas on it
[22:36] {DeepO} also, it isn't very urgent
[22:37] {DeepO} next few techs are not that important
[22:37] {DeepO} buut we are trying the idea out on Feud
[22:37] {DeepO} in that, we want everyone of the world to pay for a tech, that we are the only ones investing beakers in
[22:37] {DeepO} there are a lot of ways in which this can go wrong
[22:38] {DeepO} but in general, if we can make other teams (read Bob) dependent on us, we would be realitvely safe
[22:38] {DeepO} and in a good position to win this game
[22:38] {DeepO} (There are other options of winning the game, some of which are also being discussed on our boards right now)
[22:39] {DeepO} okay. that's enough text for the moment, let's hear your opinions
[22:39] {DeepO} (when you get back)
[22:40] {DeepO} anybody there?
[22:41] [10:41pm] Quits: Nimitz (Nimitz@user-v8o1d02.dialup.mindspring.com) (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Nimitz2)))
[22:42] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User Nimitz has been invited to: #milkshake
[22:42] [10:42pm] *apolyton.net(@#milkshake)* DeepO invited Nimitz into channel #milkshake.
[22:42] [10:42pm] Nimitz (Nimitz@user-v8o1d2a.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined. «4 people»
[22:42] {DeepO} ghosting?
[22:43] [10:43pm] {Nimitz} yes
[22:43] {DeepO} Nimitz, were you able to read the thing I typed earlier?
[22:43] [10:43pm] {Nimitz} not really
[22:44] {DeepO} okay...
[22:44] {DeepO} I'm going to get back in my buffer, and copy stuff
[22:44] {DeepO} ...
[22:44] {DeepO} I'll type a little
[22:44] {DeepO} the thing is, we too are at crossroads in the game
[22:44] {DeepO} we have a great opportunity here, but we are uncertain we want to do it, and we can't do it alone
[22:45] {DeepO} atm, our research is huge, compared to the other teams
[22:45] {DeepO} and once rep will come, this will change
[22:45] {DeepO} but because Bob will get into a war pretty soon, most likely the moment they get knights
[22:45] {DeepO} research will practically halt on their side
[22:45] {DeepO} so, we can either stop ourselves, as we also need money (and you too)
[22:45] {DeepO} or, we can research at full speed, and let the others pay for our tech slider
[22:45] {DeepO} in thiis last case, we need a partner: Lego
[22:45] {DeepO} again, this is only a wild idea, and no proposal, but I just want to let you know one of the possibilities in this game
[22:45] {DeepO} and want to hear your ideas on it
[22:45] {DeepO} also, it isn't very urgent
[22:45] {DeepO} next few techs are not that important
[22:45] {DeepO} buut we are trying the idea out on Feud
[22:45] {DeepO} in that, we want everyone of the world to pay for a tech, that we are the only ones investing beakers in
[22:45] {DeepO} there are a lot of ways in which this can go wrong
[22:45] {DeepO} but in general, if we can make other teams (read Bob) dependent on us, we would be realitvely safe
[22:46] {DeepO} and in a good position to win this game
[22:46] {DeepO} (There are other options of winning the game, some of which are also being discussed on our boards right now)
[22:46] {DeepO} okay. that's enough text for the moment, let's hear your opinions
[22:47] [10:47pm] {Nimitz} yes
[22:47] {DeepO} yes?
[22:47] [10:47pm] DeepO sets mode: +o Nimitz
[22:47] [10:47pm] {@Nimitz} well we are worried about the the other team they might turn on us if we started to run the reseach
[22:48] {DeepO} true
[22:48] {DeepO} which is also a concern
[22:48] {DeepO} buut if we would be fair, and poowerful
[22:48] {DeepO} we might be able to make it something of an advantage for them too
[22:48] {DeepO} in that they don't need to worry about research, they get it for a cheap price
[22:49] {DeepO} (btw, don't mind my type style, today is a double-vowel day, it seems )
[22:49] [10:49pm] {@Nimitz} they don't care they would fear use just for the fact we can turn off the spicet
[22:49] [10:49pm] {@Nimitz} *spicket
[22:49] {DeepO} spicket?
[22:49] {DeepO} sorry, don't understand
[22:50] [10:50pm] {@Nimitz} fauset
[22:50] {DeepO} nm, I think I can get the idea (fauset?)
[22:50] {DeepO} well, maybe
[22:50] {DeepO} but it depends on other fctors
[22:50] {DeepO} right now, they can't really invade us
[22:50] {DeepO} and I don't think Lego is at particular risk either
[22:51] {DeepO} so, the moment you can claim your territory coast to coast, and have a decent defense force, they will think twice
[22:51] {DeepO} in our case, this moment will come relatively early
[22:51] {DeepO} and I thought you needed about 20 turns from now on to get there
[22:52] [10:52pm] {@Nimitz} not sure myself
[22:52] {DeepO} well, anyway, it's always a case of portaying to be ready, more then being ready
[22:52] {DeepO} which is why, from time to time, we mention Theseus and Arrian in dipllo conversation, it keeps us safe
[22:53] {DeepO} all this can only start the moment war breaks out at Bob
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@Nimitz} yes
[22:53] {DeepO} and this will be soon
[22:53] {DeepO} as either Vox wil create some truble very soon
[22:54] {DeepO} or we simply need to wait for riders
[22:54] {DeepO} we have a reasonable assurance from teams that that moment will get decisive
[22:54] [10:54pm] {@Nimitz} how far are you from Feu.
[22:54] {DeepO} we hope GoW wins...
[22:54] {DeepO} well, it depends
[22:54] {DeepO} right now, I thought we had 8 turns left, if we don't want to lose any cash in the progress
[22:55] {DeepO} (could be 6 in the mean time, I'm a few turns behind on info)
[22:55] {DeepO} but, there were more then one voice asking to speed it up
[22:55] {DeepO} if we can get (part of) the cost of this elsewhere
[22:55] {DeepO} If we wold really go for it, we should finish in 4 turns or so
[22:56] {DeepO} ... yes republic does marvelous things to your commerce
[22:56] [10:56pm] {@Nimitz} when you have libaries
[22:56] {DeepO} libraries are another discussion
[22:56] {DeepO} another option would be to go slower on this
[22:56] {DeepO} and use the saved cash to do mass infrastructure rushing
[22:57] {DeepO} another idea we were thinking on
[22:57] {DeepO} but in this case, the difference between us, and the other team that is researching Feud would demisnish
[22:57] {DeepO} and probably mean that they will research it independently
[22:57] {DeepO} we can't have that, or our scheme stops working
[22:58] [10:58pm] {@Nimitz} well GoW is after it
[22:59] {DeepO} so.. basically... we're at crossroads, and not sure how to proceed
[22:59] {DeepO} GoW: we know
[22:59] {DeepO} but I couldn't tell you that, as they told us in private
[22:59] {DeepO} so it had to come from you first...
[22:59] {DeepO} (yeah, stupid honor rule we want to keep )
[23:00] {DeepO} so, maybe it's good to hear more from Lego, to see if they would like such a scheme
[23:00] {DeepO} because it's obvious we can't do this alone
[23:01] {DeepO} we need some kind of tech-partner, to split the costs, and the gains
[23:01] {DeepO} I fully understand this does not get decided in a week time
[23:01] {DeepO} so, maybe it's best to build our relation up
[23:01] {DeepO} and go one step at the time
[23:02] {DeepO} (also, changing situations in the world can be reacted too)
[23:02] {DeepO} so... first deal first
[23:02] [11:02pm] {@Nimitz} yes we know about trade taking time
[23:02] {DeepO} would you be interested in either getting feud for gold from us
[23:02] {DeepO} or as part of a 2 tech deal?
[23:03] [11:03pm] {@Nimitz} most likely a deal down the rode like two tech one
[23:03] {DeepO} you want to wait?
[23:03] {DeepO} or did I read that incorrectly
[23:04] [11:04pm] {@Nimitz} yes say like 5 turns for us to make a deal for Fue and Chivalry
[23:04] {DeepO} np
[23:04] {DeepO} some ideas we wer thinking on:
[23:06] {DeepO} 1. we give you feud + knight, you give theo + gold compensation ( a fair one, of course). Seeing as we will deliver feud a lot sooner, maybe it would be best to deicde on the compensation first, and trade that to feud, later on doing a straight theo-chivalry exchange
[23:06] {DeepO} 2. We handle feud like we do with all teams, compensating later in a separate deal
[23:07] {DeepO} 3. we wait on feud, and exchange it once theo is ready (by which time, we should have chivalry). Problem here is, that we want to avoid that you get the opportunity to buy it at a lower price from someone who we sold it to, at a time our NDA would have expired. Wouldn't be very fair to us
[23:07] {DeepO} 4. Any other things you might want to come up with
[23:08] {DeepO} we have at least 4 turns to decide, but some kind of prinicpal agreement on which path to follow would be nice to have
[23:08] {DeepO} allivates stress
[23:08] {DeepO} alliviates
[23:08] {DeepO} I thnk
[23:08] {DeepO} think
[23:09] [11:09pm] {@Nimitz} ok let me let me take this back to the team and I'mm have general answer by tomarrow
[23:09] {DeepO} tomorrow would be superb, really, there is no problem if you wait 2 days
[23:09] [11:09pm] {@Nimitz} ok
[23:09] {DeepO} as to the rest: would it be too much to ask if you have a rough eta on theo yet?
[23:10] {DeepO} and have you had any conversations with other teams, trying to find out if some are going for it too?
[23:10] [11:10pm] {@Nimitz} 20 turns at the latest
[23:10] {DeepO} okay. we should have chivalry by then at any rate
[23:10] {DeepO} so that's good to hear... also not too late for others to be first in getting it
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@Nimitz} no talks yet.
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@Nimitz} well gtg bye
[23:11] {DeepO} planning on?
[23:11] {DeepO} bye, see you next sunday
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@Nimitz} not that I know of
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@Nimitz} bye
[23:11] [11:11pm] Nimitz (Nimitz@user-v8o1d2a.dialup.mindspring.com) has parted. «3 people»
Session Close: Sun Apr 06 23:14:35 2003

[DeepO]

Hi Vondrack!

No problem, although I was kind of looking out for a bit more interaction... I do know the burdens of real life, though, and didn't had too much time in chat either.

I hope enough was said, so you get a better idea of where we are thinking of, there is a lot of long term planning / discussion going on in GS. I can imagine your team is no different, so let's try to be more prepared next week. I'm sure that we can grow to a favourable deal in the future

DeepO

Hello, DeepO!

Just wanted to apologize for missing the chat. I was really looking forward to it, but the real life sort of interfered... I came back online only few minutes ago.

Judging from a couple of notes in our own chatroom, I gather redstar1 and Nimitz were present... so I hope to be able to read the chatlog tomorrow.

I hope to be able to join you next week.

Cheers,
Radek aka vondrack
Legoland

[DeepO]

Nimitz,
quantum_mechani,
redstar1,
vondrack,

(I was unsure who to send it to, so I just picked all)

You can imagine that the times are rather hectic, lately, so my apologies for not getting in touch sooner. But I wanted to give you an update...

Feudalism should be ours in normally 2, at most 3 turns. At which time we'll offer it to the world (well, not Vox, naturally). We have been discussing to delay it, using the time for upgrade and rush money, but it won't be needed. The Voxians have given us an opportunity to get to our GA before their main force is even in sight, money isn't really a problem any more.

I know you were still discussing it, but have you reached any conclusion in-team on our last proposal (200 gold or 12 gpt, plus 10 turn NDA)? We are certain no other team is going to be able to provide it before our NDAs run out, as nobody besides us is currently researching the tech.

Further, a bit of update on the war with Vox: currently, all action is limited to a couple of border skirmishes. They took us a little by surprise, we were looking towards their territory as one of the options for future expansion, but not so soon. So, we were not fully prepared, however we can react very quickly. The first few turns of the war may get tense, we might lose 1 or 2 cities at most depending on what Vox will launch at us, but there is no way they are going to keep up with our production, in our GA we're probably over 3 times as productive as them.

It most likely was a Live or Die choice for Vox, we can see their cities now (they have sold us their map, accepting the gold in the same turn as killing Grog), and half of them have been pop-rushed to size 1. Also, but you probably now this already, they never launched an attack towards Bob, that was a ruse. They tricked us though

Other insights in the current situation: RP is up to it again. Be aware of Togas, he is using every dirty trick he knows to take advantage of the situation. RP has asked us whether we want to help take care of Legoland, as Legoland would be the biggest competitor on their huge territory if left alone. The same moment, they were asking GoW to get a trade embargo against us, and are sponsoring Vox with cash to attack us, hoping to prune us. Luckily for us, GoW is starting to see their evil machinations, maybe we can isolate RP a little. Vox won't be around long enough to be influenced by Togas' 'requests' or 'unofficial communications' either

Togas should take a signature of "divide and Conquer", at least the first part of that is working splendidly.

See you next Sunday,
DeepO

[DeepO]

Hello, DeepO!

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier on the Feudalism deal... RL constraints getting in my way. I do hope to be able to put together some information on our situation sometime tomorrow - the weekend should finally allow me to catch up.

Talk to you soon!
vondrack

[DeepO]

e-mail from Vondrack:

Vondrack,

I can understand your position on Feudalism, and frankly, I personally didn't expect you to buy it directly from us now. We can't offer you any discount on the price, as we're already losing money on this tech when asking for 200 gold for each trade, especially now that Vox is no longer an interested party (Well, I don't know if they have realised that we were so close, we can upgrade before their first unit would reach one of our cities.)

However we have concerns that, even as we put definately most trouble into getting the tech, other teams would 'steal' our profits. It took us a while to convince GoW to buy from us, instead of doing it themselves, which gave us a lot of insight of how things are going on Bob. Apparently, the reason why they wanted to do it themselves, at higher cost and longer eta was that RP had demanded it, in the spirit of a trade embargo against us. (us being GS here). But ND does not listen so closely to RP, and wanted to buy Feud from us, which would put GoW at a considerable delay in getting Chivalry.

Timing of next techs: I can only guess at it, but if we would go for full research, we should be able to get next tech in 6-7 turns (so after Feud). I don't think we'll do that, we can use the money to rush some of our improvements that now don't get build because we need more troops. But it should be easy to both get some cash, and finish our next tech around the time you finish Theo. We're in full debate which tech that will be: it looks like Chivalry would either be a super tech to research if we can sell it to both GoW and ND, or a total waste if both would research it themselves. If we don't offer it to them, we can be sure there are two teams who will waste beakers on the tech, so maybe it's best if we would go for something else (invention?) in the mean time. But this is still heavily debated right now, the situation has changed in more then one respect with this Vox war. But, no matter which tech we would go for, we would end that second tech around the same time as you would end Theo.

You've just given us more proof of the closeness and dangers from the Bobians, with the C&C deals (we had similar problems with republic). That was already the start of their trade embargo against us (us being both Lego and GS here). I can imagine who was willing to play the secret source on construction: Vox. They have been backstabbing us for about 10-15 turns, if we afterwards analyse where our relation soured. Which would be perfectly in time to get some more money out of tech trades they were not allowed to commit.

RP: yes, they seem friendly, but I swear they told us you were the biggest threat to them in specific and to everyone in general, and that they were looking for ideas how to stop that. So, at that moment their tone towards us was super friendly, solliciting to get into alliances against the evil Lego empire... however, at the same time they were asking exactly the same thing of GoW, only not an alliance against Lego, but against GS. And I can only imagine that they have sent quite a few messages to you, to try to set you up against GS.

One of the dirtiest trick they use (dirty in the sense that we should look out for them, not in the sense of being illegal in this game) are the unofficial messages. These are like "we will deny to have sent you this information, but you know that XX is backstabbing you in your deal on YYY, right?". So far, all the messages we received contained an element of thruth in there, and were vague enough on other fronts. All were directed to make us angry, or sour relations, or 'expose' something another team had been allegedly doing to us. While we were close to Vox, most were about Vox. Now, we're beginning to receive them about you, and GoW (ND has very little contact with RP, it seems. Or they hide it very well). I can only imagine you are getting the same messages, if you get any about us, never be afraid to simply ask whether something is true, instead of assuming RP is telling you the thruth, to help you. They're only trying to help themselves.

Last comment: we have obtained maps of Bob, maybe you have too, maybe you haven't. Anyway, we can't give you our WM directly as we will not give away our own map so easily, but if you would be interested in eg screenshots (up to date up to 2 turns ago, when we received the map), maybe we can strike a deal. Otherwise, we have more accurate information on the Bobians (well, more accurate... the number of cities I told you earlier was quite an accurate analysis, but the situation has changed a bit, and it gets harder and harder to analyse it from the F-screens)

See you tonight, I'm looking forward to it. I hope I'll be able to get into the chatroom, a couple of days ago I tried for nearly 2 hours before finaly giving up.

DeepO

Radek Vondracek wrote:

Hi, DeepO!

Poly is down (getting "There seems to have been a slight problem with
the database. Please try again by pressing the refresh button in your
browser." error all the time - but refreshing does not help...), so I
am sending this via email:

===========

As promised, here is at least a quick update on the situation Lego is
in ATM and on the Feudalism deal proposal you've presented.

To our disappointment, our deals on Currency and Construction went
only so-so, despite Construction being our exclusive at the time (and
Currency, too, at least for few turns). We were only able to trade C+C
to two other teams... RPers even going as far as getting the techs
from an illegal source.

The fact is that paying 200 gold for a technology that brings no
immediate benefit to us (our Mercenaries are better than Pikemen + we
are not planning to attempt building Sun Tzu's) does not sound right,
considering how much cash we have and how much cash we need. Even
slowing down our full speed research of Theology in order to set 12gpt
aside for you seems not justified. Let's wait a couple of turns until
Chivalry and Theology are available for trade (we are a little bit
over 10 turns from discovering Theology ATM) and get back to the issue
then.

As for the rest of information - thanks for keeping us updated.
Especially the information about RPers is quite worrying, as they say
they are our best friends all the time... dunno what to think of
that...

Looking forward to our chat today!
vondrack

[DeepO]

chat log:

Session Start: Sun Apr 13 21:55:16 2003
[21:55] } Successfully joined #vino at 9:55pm
[21:55] } Total People:1 Ops:1 Voices:0
[21:55] } Channel Modes: +
[21:55] } Created on Sunday, April 13th, 2003 at 9:53pm
[21:55] *** Retrieving #vino info...
[21:55] [9:55pm] DeepO sets mode: +ips
[21:55] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User redstar1 has been invited to: #vino
[21:55] [9:55pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited redstar1 into channel #vino.
[21:56] -} *redstar1* Hi there. wanna join me in #vino?
[21:57] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User alva has been invited to: #vino
[21:57] [9:57pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited alva into channel #vino.
[21:57] [9:57pm] alva (Alva@D5E02815.kabel.telenet.be) has joined. «2 people»
[21:57] {DeepO} hey
[21:57] [9:57pm] {alva} hi
[21:58] {DeepO} je bent er dus... nog iemand geinteresserd in lego chat?
[21:58] [9:58pm] {alva} so , you got it
[21:58] {DeepO} wat?
[21:58] [9:58pm] {alva} nederlands!!!!
[21:58] {DeepO} wel ja, er is voor de rest niemand
[21:58] [9:58pm] {alva} 't is dus gelukt
[21:58] {DeepO} wat?
[21:58] [9:58pm] {alva} mirc
[21:58] {DeepO} aha
[21:59] {DeepO} tja, blijkbaar is het beter als ik de afgelopen uren nog niet op het forum ben geweest
[21:59] [9:59pm] {alva} wat uur had je afgesproken?
[21:59] {DeepO} nuu
[21:59] {DeepO} nu
[21:59] {DeepO} ne second
[21:59] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User redstar1 has been invited to: #vino
[21:59] [9:59pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited redstar1 into channel #vino.
[21:59] [9:59pm] redstar1 (d@host213-123-116-111.in-addr.btopenworld.com) has joined. «3 people»
[21:59] {DeepO} hi there!
[21:59] {DeepO} anyone else needing an invite?
[21:59] [9:59pm] {redstar1} hiya
[21:59] [9:59pm] DeepO sets mode: +o alva
[21:59] [9:59pm] DeepO sets mode: +o redstar1
[21:59] [9:59pm] {@redstar1} vondrack
[22:00] {DeepO} ok
[22:00] [10:00pm] {@alva} hi red
[22:00] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User vondrack has been invited to: #vino
[22:00] [10:00pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited vondrack into channel #vino.
[22:00] [10:00pm] {@redstar1} not sure if kloreep and sharpe want to join as well
[22:00] [10:00pm] {@redstar1} hey alva
[22:00] {DeepO} well, normally you should be able to invite them too
[22:00] {DeepO} simply type /invite user #vino
[22:00] {DeepO} (a trick I learned from Shiber)
[22:00] [10:00pm] {@redstar1} yeah i been using irc for years
[22:01] [10:01pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* redstar1 invited vondrack into channel #vino.
[22:01] [10:01pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* redstar1 invited Sharpe into channel #vino.
[22:01] [10:01pm] vondrack (~vondrack@pha-81-27-194-6.tesnetwork.cz) has joined. «4 people»
[22:01] [10:01pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* redstar1 invited Kloreep into channel #vino.
[22:01] {DeepO} hi vondrack
[22:01] [10:01pm] Sharpe (Sharpe@dhcp-0-7-e9-cf-5a-ad.cpe.mountaincable.net) has joined. «5 people»
[22:01] [10:01pm] {vondrack} good evening!
[22:01] [10:01pm] {@redstar1} all the guys might be interested in diplomacy
[22:01] [10:01pm] Kloreep (~ben@66-90-192-11.grandecom.net) has joined. «6 people»
[22:01] [10:01pm] {@redstar1} we don't get much of it
[22:01] {DeepO} oh, and no offense redstar1, it's simply that I don't use mirc much
[22:01] [10:01pm] {@alva} Hi von
[22:01] {DeepO} hi everyone!
[22:01] [10:01pm] {@redstar1} hehe no probs mate
[22:01] [10:01pm] {Sharpe} Hi!
[22:01] {DeepO} welcome, I would say
[22:01] [10:01pm] {Kloreep} Hi.
[22:01] [10:01pm] {@alva} ok, welcome all
[22:01] {DeepO} it's good to see so many interested people from Lego
[22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} yeah... the last message (the part on RPers) was quite worrying
[22:02] [10:02pm] {@redstar1} well you caught a few of us on, so what the hell
[22:02] [10:02pm] {@alva} So many people, no wonder you build the pyramids
[22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} raised interest in our chat
[22:02] [10:02pm] {vondrack} yeah, everybody lent a hand
[22:02] {DeepO} well, first of all, let me say that I'm a few hours behind on the situation
[22:02] [10:02pm] {Sharpe} yeah, Vondrack sure used the whips on us for that Pyramids - said something about his burial tomb
[22:02] [10:02pm] {@alva} again congrats btw
[22:02] {DeepO} I agree
[22:03] {DeepO} quite a feast that must have given
[22:03] {DeepO} however, I don't know if it was good for your international situation
[22:03] [10:03pm] {@redstar1} yeah, though i looked after the virgins
[22:03] {DeepO}
[22:03] {DeepO} let's start with RP
[22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} ok
[22:03] {DeepO} I'm not sure how much communication you have gotten the past weeks from them
[22:03] [10:03pm] {@alva} both asleep and shiber are on line, I'll post in the forum 'bout this
[22:03] [10:03pm] {vondrack} not that much
[22:04] {DeepO} however, the few things we got we're quite troubling
[22:04] [10:04pm] {@redstar1} no, RP have been fairly quiet
[22:04] {DeepO} «alva» please invite them
[22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} actually, you indicated you'd expect us getting "those" messages from RP, too
[22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} but we do not really get them... ???
[22:04] {DeepO} yeah
[22:04] {DeepO} well, they'll come
[22:04] [10:04pm] {vondrack} perhaps
[22:04] {DeepO} most of the times, it's not a good sign when the send those msgs
[22:05] {DeepO} let me explain our situation a little
[22:05] {DeepO} before going on with yours
[22:05] [10:05pm] {vondrack} ok, fine
[22:05] {DeepO} Vox: they have been looking for a way to use their immortals
[22:05] {DeepO} and we're pretty sure it was mosly RP that made them come from us
[22:05] {DeepO} then, we got such an unofficial message
[22:05] {DeepO} explaining that there was no incursion of Bob
[22:06] {DeepO} (which we were expecting)
[22:06] {DeepO} later on, we learn that Vox gets paid by RP to enter this war
[22:06] {DeepO} (well, maybe as payment for a tech, but that's just the excuse)
[22:06] {DeepO} and still, RP is very friendly, and asks us about how we are going to take care of Lego
[22:07] {DeepO} which we have no interest in, of course
[22:07] {DeepO} the point is: RP knows that the two isolationists are the biggesst risk to them
[22:07] {DeepO} and are trying everything they can to make us isolated
[22:07] {DeepO} us by getting us in a war
[22:08] {DeepO} which, as we explained to them, is not really a problem
[22:08] {DeepO} we're not going to loose becuase of this war, on the contrary
[22:08] {DeepO} so the moment they figured that out, they have been trying to set GoW, and most likely ND against us
[22:08] {DeepO} they demanded (yes demanded, not asked)
[22:08] {DeepO} that GoW was going to research Feud themselves
[22:08] {DeepO} so no more gold would go to us
[22:09] {DeepO} meanwhile, they're trying to isolate you too
[22:09] {DeepO} so I can only imagine that in the near future, you will find eg GoW not willing to trade with you on a certain tech
[22:09] {DeepO} you then jcould imagine what it means
[22:09] {DeepO} The problem is, that we will grow through Vox, but with your Pyaramids, you will grow too
[22:10] {DeepO} so I can expect the pressure building the coming weeks
[22:10] {DeepO} watch out...
[22:10] {DeepO} also for the UUs
[22:10] {DeepO} well, that's basically it
[22:10] [10:10pm] {@redstar1} you are planning to conquer vox?
[22:10] {DeepO} right now?
[22:10] {DeepO} yes
[22:10] {DeepO} we were not a few turns ago
[22:10] {DeepO} but this is an opportunity we can't miss
[22:11] {DeepO} and we were provoked, even attacked into this war
[22:11] {DeepO} so to not lose face, this war will likely continue till either one of us is dead
[22:11] [10:11pm] {@redstar1} fair enough
[22:11] {DeepO} yeah, but we didn't want it
[22:11] [10:11pm] {vondrack} after all that trash talkimg, that's is very likely )
[22:11] [10:11pm] {@redstar1} any idea of relative military strength?
[22:11] {DeepO} we were happily sailing beneath the score radar
[22:12] [10:12pm] {Sharpe} loved the avatar war
[22:12] {DeepO} me too
[22:12] {DeepO} mil strength: yes, we know the maximum strength of Vox
[22:12] {DeepO} and we're smaller for the moment
[22:12] {DeepO} buut Vox is going to need to have 3 more turns at least before they can attack one of our cities
[22:12] [10:12pm] {vondrack} yeah, it's a bit worrying you appear to be the weakest team ATM
[22:13] {DeepO} and at that moment, we'll have more then enough troops
[22:13] {DeepO} maybe.
[22:13] {DeepO} but our empire is the easiest to defend
[22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} I mean - that's what the Mil Adv says (F3)
[22:13] {DeepO} and upgrades are coming... Vox has nothing left to upgrade
[22:13] {DeepO} I know
[22:13] [10:13pm] {vondrack} RPers first, then everybody else, then GS last
[22:13] {DeepO} but its no problem to us
[22:14] {DeepO} yeah... a good thing RP doesn't have boats yet (or at least not many)
[22:14] {DeepO} or they would sail here to get us
[22:14] [10:14pm] {@alva} One of the reasons we didn' as many units, is that we would always have ample warning
[22:14] [10:14pm] {vondrack} yeah, we are also quite sure RPers were neglecting seas
[22:14] {DeepO} Grog was our warning
[22:14] {DeepO} and he did his job splendildy
[22:14] {DeepO} poor Grog
[22:14] [10:14pm] {@alva}
[22:15] [10:15pm] {vondrack}
[22:15] {DeepO} RP and Sea: do you have maps of them?
[22:15] [10:15pm] {Sharpe} well now you will have to get a MaGrog
[22:15] [10:15pm] {vondrack} yes, we do (map)
[22:15] {DeepO} ah, ok
[22:15] [10:15pm] {@alva} We will get all his family now
[22:15] {DeepO} I guess Vox has been shopping around
[22:15] [10:15pm] {vondrack} ?
[22:15] {DeepO} so you also see they only have one coastal city for now
[22:16] {DeepO} and its on our side
[22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} yeah, that we know
[22:16] {DeepO} well, waht did you think about RP
[22:16] {DeepO} I mean before my msg
[22:16] [10:16pm] {vondrack} well
[22:16] [10:16pm] {@alva} how does that inviting work again?
[22:17] [10:17pm] {@alva} nathan here
[22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} RPers have always been very friendly
[22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} talked about deals
[22:17] —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— User nbarclay has been invited to: #vino
[22:17] [10:17pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* DeepO invited nbarclay into channel #vino.
[22:17] {DeepO} use /invite nbarclay #vino
[22:17] [10:17pm] {vondrack} talked about cooperation
[22:17] {DeepO} specific talk about us?
[22:17] [10:17pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* alva invited nbarclay into channel #vino.
[22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} nothing at all
[22:18] {DeepO} strange
[22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} actually, only Bobians were ever involved in their comms, I think
[22:18] {DeepO} I would suspect that they tried to get us against you, and to get you against us too
[22:18] {DeepO} ?
[22:18] {DeepO} I don't understand
[22:18] [10:18pm] {vondrack} no, not really...
[22:19] [10:19pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* alva invited nbarclay into channel #vino.
[22:19] [10:19pm] {@redstar1} no RP rarely if ever mention 3rd parties in their communications
[22:19] {DeepO} well... it seems to me, that we both have to watch out for them
[22:19] {DeepO} ok
[22:19] {DeepO} well, they don't mention GoW to us
[22:20] {DeepO} but GoW is rather lose when it comes to their diplo contacts
[22:20] {DeepO} so the moment they got something from RP, we knew
[22:20] {DeepO} (I mean last time, because we were chatting with them atm)
[22:20] {DeepO} which was quite handy
[22:20] [10:20pm] {vondrack} lose? like sharing info on RPers?
[22:20] {DeepO} as it instantly made them look bad for 2 teams
[22:20] {DeepO} sure
[22:21] [10:21pm] {vondrack} aha
[22:21] {DeepO} like quoting messages
[22:21] {DeepO} which we will never do
[22:21] [10:21pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* alva invited nbarclay into channel #vino.
[22:21] {DeepO} and most other teams don't do either
[22:21] [10:21pm] nbarclay (~nbarclay@rbn1-216-180-19-109.adsl.hiwaay.net) has joined. «7 people»
[22:21] {DeepO} aha, hi Nathan
[22:21] [10:21pm] {@alva} ah
[22:21] [10:21pm] {nbarclay} Hi
[22:22] [10:22pm] {@redstar1} bit of a no no without permission
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} good evening, Nathan!
[22:22] {DeepO} so far simply talking about RP
[22:22] [10:22pm] {@redstar1} hi nbarclay
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} first time we meet "live"
[22:22] [10:22pm] {Sharpe} Hi!
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} just sending saves to you...
[22:22] [10:22pm] {nbarclay} Not exactly the most personal kind of interaction, is it?
[22:22] [10:22pm] {vondrack} yeah
[22:22] {DeepO} well, it seems to us that RP is really into getting their position safe for the upcoming UU wars
[22:23] {DeepO} after that, they will tturn to both of us
[22:23] {DeepO} and we would like to keep them from doing that
[22:23] {DeepO} certainly now that there is a big chance that both us and Lego will grow a lot harder than they can
[22:24] {DeepO} ... which was, in a sense, the initial idea in getting into a tech trade deal for us
[22:24] {DeepO} because we can't be isolated from everyone
[22:24] [10:24pm] {vondrack} that's correct
[22:24] {DeepO} we can handle Bob, though, just not Lego too
[22:24] {DeepO} it seems to me, that you are very much in the same situation
[22:24] {DeepO} which makes things possible
[22:24] [10:24pm] {@redstar1} ahh you percieve us as a threat?
[22:24] [10:24pm] {@redstar1} hehe
[22:25] {DeepO} no, not military
[22:25] {DeepO} but for winning this game? sure
[22:25] {DeepO} but that's no problem whatsoever
[22:25] [10:25pm] {@redstar1} well thats nothing new, everyone is in it to win it
[22:25] [10:25pm] {Sharpe} winning is a long way off...
[22:25] {DeepO} sure, but not everyone is going to be big enough to do it
[22:25] [10:25pm] {@alva} all but vox
[22:25] [10:25pm] {@redstar1} well there is a long long way to go
[22:26] [10:26pm] {@redstar1} and we would take a long term view on things
[22:26] {DeepO} and RP is right, that these turns are decisive when it comes to growth
[22:26] {DeepO} exactly, as do we
[22:26] {DeepO} which is why we were happily building along, before the war
[22:26] {DeepO} as were you
[22:26] [10:26pm] {Sharpe} what is your impression of the Bob map now that you see it?
[22:26] {DeepO} a lot of land
[22:26] {DeepO} and poorly improved
[22:27] {DeepO} plus, there are some serious problems there, between the geographical relation of the threee teams
[22:27] {DeepO} ND is, as they say in Dutch, the sigar
[22:27] [10:27pm] {@alva} true, I dont think I have ever had a start like GoW
[22:27] [10:27pm] {Sharpe} out of curiousity do you see us now too?
[22:27] {DeepO} no exactly
[22:27] {DeepO} we know a bit of your coast
[22:28] [10:28pm] {Sharpe} well it is better than their one tile tundra start
[22:28] {DeepO} but did you trade your map, in exchange for the other WM?
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} well, one thing to keep in mind is that all Bobians shared their maps... so GoW & ND know very well that RPers got the best start - that should be likely to make them less inclined to ally with them
[22:28] [10:28pm] {Sharpe} no we do not trade maps
[22:28] {DeepO} ok, good
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} never
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} team policy
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} same as yourself, right?
[22:28] {DeepO} we neither, but there is not much to protect, once coastal exploartion will have completed
[22:28] {DeepO} our land is small, compared to both you, and Bob
[22:28] [10:28pm] {vondrack} oh, that's right
[22:28] [10:28pm] {nbarclay} Let's just say it would take a lot more reason than we've had thus far for us to trade it.
[22:29] {DeepO}
[22:29] {DeepO} for us the same
[22:29] {DeepO} but we're not losing wars yet
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} it seems to drive some teams mad when we refuse to trade for our WM...
[22:29] {DeepO} RP complained, yes
[22:29] [10:29pm] {vondrack} I guess you met the same reactions...
[22:29] [10:29pm] {@alva} I don't why btw
[22:29] {DeepO} and they somehow took it as an offense
[22:30] [10:30pm] {@alva} what's wrong with keeping some FOW??
[22:30] {DeepO} the strange thing is, I can't remember them asking it of us
[22:30] [10:30pm] {@alva} GoW did
[22:30] {DeepO} yeah
[22:30] {DeepO} so that may have been a RP request
[22:30] {DeepO} more of the things we get from GoW first are 'cleared' with RP, it seems
[22:30] {DeepO} which really is a problem
[22:31] [10:31pm] {@alva} not as long long as we it
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} you think they are feeding you with "crafted" info?
[22:31] {DeepO} well, anymore someone wants to add to the RP thing?
[22:31] {DeepO} maybe
[22:31] [10:31pm] {vondrack} just that we VERY well know
[22:32] {DeepO} it certainly is a possibility
[22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} how you feel
[22:32] {DeepO} you mean vs RP?
[22:32] [10:32pm] {nbarclay} I wonder whether RP has thought of the possibility that if they tug on puppet strings too much, the puppets might start tugging back?
[22:32] [10:32pm] {vondrack} I do not think so (re: nathan)
[22:33] [10:33pm] {@redstar1} they never see childs play?
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} and that is what's scaring me in the ISDG
[22:33] [10:33pm] {vondrack} since Togas conducts the diplomacy there in the same way
[22:33] {DeepO} but are the puppets tugging back?
[22:33] {DeepO} I mean, they sometimes have a point
[22:33] {DeepO} and are not afraid to state it
[22:33] {DeepO} like when they asked GoW to don't trade Feud to us
[22:33] {DeepO} or from us
[22:34] {DeepO} they are right of course, it would set us back a lot, if we can't trade it to Bob
[22:34] {DeepO} we already lose money on the deal
[22:34] [10:34pm] {Sharpe} wonder how RP is going to be like if they get hold of all those luxuries
[22:35] {DeepO} doesn't matter
[22:35] {DeepO} they shouldn't be allowed to get so far
[22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} talk about lost money on tech deals... our sour experience with C+C was enough to get the taste
[22:35] {DeepO} that was RP, I'm quite sure
[22:35] {DeepO} but of course, they still kept a friendly face to you
[22:35] [10:35pm] {vondrack} yes, they did
[22:36] {DeepO} can you imagine that, even if we understand your concerns, it scares us that you are willing to get Feud elsewhere
[22:36] {DeepO} ?
[22:36] {DeepO} because that too can easily be a RP 'request' for all we care
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} well, for the moment, we are not going to get it anywhere
[22:36] {DeepO} fine
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} since we have no use for it
[22:36] {DeepO} I understand your situation, really.
[22:36] [10:36pm] {vondrack} you will not see us having Feu for at least 15 turns
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} probably more
[22:37] {DeepO} well, chivalry will be sooner then 15 turns
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} we hope to make some bundle tech deals later on
[22:37] [10:37pm] {vondrack} since we are pushing our way through the Edu branch
[22:37] {DeepO} so watch out, Bob is not going to attack us, if they have any brains left. But Lego, without chivalry...
[22:37] {DeepO} okay, that's fine too
[22:37] [10:37pm] {nbarclay} Is there anything we could start working toward with you?
[22:38] [10:38pm] {nbarclay} In terms of setting things up for a deal later?
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} right now... well, do you happen to know if anyone researches Engineering?
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} just checking
[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} I assume you will go for Chivalry
[22:38] {DeepO} we don't know for usre, no
[22:38] {DeepO} do you?

[DeepO]

[22:38] [10:38pm] {vondrack} because of the war
[22:39] {DeepO} well... chivalry is not needed to get Vox down
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} yes, it would seem logical?
[22:39] {DeepO} so we're still deciding what to do...
[22:39] [10:39pm] {nbarclay} This is strictly confidential, but we may be arranging to get Chivalry from someone else.
[22:39] [10:39pm] {vondrack} oh, well... it seems we do not have a clear idea on Voxes' military
[22:39] {DeepO} well, what do you assume on Vox's strength?
[22:40] [10:40pm] {@alva} How big do you think Vox is?
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} since if I was you, I'd probably play it safe and go for Chiv

[22:40] [10:40pm] {nbarclay} In which case there's a good chance Engineering would be a priority for us, especially if we expect to be able to trade it on reasonable terms.
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} re: Vox strength
[22:40] [10:40pm] {vondrack} all we know they appear to be stronger than us
[22:40] {DeepO} Chivalry: it's the same thing others have thought about us getting Feud fast
[22:40] {DeepO} but that was not really the reason
[22:41] {DeepO} we can withhold Vox with spears, swords, and WCs
[22:41] [10:41pm] {Sharpe} I would say you might get some civs suspicious if you don't get Chivalry in the midst of a war
[22:41] {DeepO} pikes and medinf is simply a plus
[22:41] {DeepO} ?
[22:41] {DeepO} but why?
[22:41] [10:41pm] {nbarclay} WC = 2 attack, 20 shields.
[22:41] {DeepO} we are facing a slowmover army, with biggest defense of 2
[22:41] [10:41pm] {nbarclay} Knight = 4 attack, 70 shields.
[22:42] [10:42pm] {vondrack} hmm... admittedly, Knight are expensive
[22:42] [10:42pm] {nbarclay} As long as we don't go up against anything with a defense over 2, it's debatable how much value per shield knights would add.
[22:42] {DeepO} WCs are much more effective in the open ground, while med inf, or swords, cover all slow terrain
[22:42] [10:42pm] {Sharpe} that's true re expensive
[22:42] {DeepO} which is all there is to it, really
[22:42] {DeepO} we are planning on swarming them
[22:42] {DeepO} with loads of units we can easily build, and keep building in our GA
[22:43] {DeepO} which they cannot, as they have very few cities left, with no production
[22:43] [10:43pm] {@alva} and no population
[22:43] [10:43pm] {Sharpe} how many cities do Vox have ?
[22:43] {DeepO} let's whip them some more, thinks Vox
[22:43] [10:43pm] {vondrack} well, I trust you have the best idea of what you need to make this war go your way... just that when someone says "immortals", it sounds scary...
[22:43] {DeepO} don't you see this on your maps?
[22:44] {DeepO} immortals are no good, if they don't get to attack, and simply need to defend
[22:44] [10:44pm] *apolyton.net(@#vino)* redstar1 invited Tiberius into channel #vino.
[22:44] [10:44pm] {nbarclay} When you can produce medieval infantry faster than they can produce immortals, it's not nearly so scary.
[22:44] [10:44pm] {@alva} Vox should have come earlier..
[22:44] [10:44pm] {nbarclay} Especially when you can also produce pikes faster than they can produce spears.
[22:44] {DeepO} true
[22:44] [10:44pm] {nbarclay} (Not yet, but soon.)
[22:44] [10:44pm] {vondrack} well, you are perhaps right
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} we are just used to building NMs before granaries, you know
[22:45] {DeepO} do you have maps of Vox, or other ways to watch what is going on?
[22:45] [10:45pm] Tiberius (~tibi.k@81.196.249.192) has joined. «8 people»
[22:45] [10:45pm] {@alva} especially with how our continent is drawn
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} the builders, what do you think...
[22:45] [10:45pm] {@alva} Hi Tibi
[22:45] [10:45pm] {@redstar1} welcome tibi
[22:45] {DeepO} hi there
[22:45] [10:45pm] {vondrack} DeepO, we can see only a small part of Voxes' territory
[22:45] {DeepO} ok
[22:45] [10:45pm] {Tiberius} Hi.
[22:46] {DeepO} well, I was right the first time
[22:46] {DeepO} they had, at that moment, 5 cities
[22:46] {DeepO} currently, they have 6
[22:46] {DeepO} and 3 of them are size 1, poprushed
[22:46] [10:46pm] {@alva} Damned, I keep thinking Lego = Romans
[22:46] {DeepO} 1 is size 3, 2 are size 4
[22:46] [10:46pm] {vondrack} hmmm... that must be less than half of what you have
[22:46] {DeepO} yeah, about
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} I wonder... how come they started this war?
[22:47] {DeepO} but only in numbers of cities, we did not whip our population once
[22:47] [10:47pm] {vondrack} it seems so uneven
[22:47] {DeepO} RP
[22:47] {DeepO} easy answer
[22:47] {DeepO} and lack of insight in the mil advisor
[22:47] [10:47pm] {nbarclay} Also, we showed up as weak on Vox's military advisor.
[22:47] [10:47pm] {nbarclay} Of course the advisor doesn't tell you what the enemy can get ready to meet you with by the time you get there.
[22:48] {DeepO} true, but that was not their only problem
[22:48] [10:48pm] {@alva} no spy satellites yet
[22:48] {DeepO} and frankly, because of Grog, they had very few options
[22:48] {DeepO} they needed to start this war well before a surprise attack could have worked
[22:48] [10:48pm] {vondrack} that's right... but still... one would expect a more thoughtful approach to a war that may lead to their extinction
[22:48] [10:48pm] * vondrack shakes his head
[22:48] {DeepO} it was a life or die thing
[22:49] {DeepO} either they can gain from it
[22:49] {DeepO} or they die, in a blaze of glory, as one of our members called it
[22:49] [10:49pm] {@alva} the macarthur decoy was nicely setup though
[22:49] {DeepO} yeah, they started on this 15 turns ago
[22:49] {DeepO}
[22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} was the first landing faked, too???
[22:49] [10:49pm] {vondrack} I thought it was the second one only...?
[22:50] {DeepO} no, but the turn after, they said to us that they were going to return to Bob
[22:50] [10:50pm] {@alva} no, that was real
[22:50] [10:50pm] {nbarclay} There's a city that almost has to be left over from the first landing.
[22:50] {DeepO} which was never their idea
[22:50] {DeepO} they should have attacked us then, at that moment, the mil adv wasn't lying
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} but they appeared weak at that time, too
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} I am checking the F3 screen quite frequently
[22:51] {DeepO} which gave us a good idea of their strength
[22:51] [10:51pm] {vondrack} I am quite sure they did not have the military either
[22:51] {DeepO} we knew, because we were more or less even, how many warriors they had
[22:51] {DeepO} before connecting iron
[22:52] {DeepO} afterwards, only a few could have been build
[22:52] {DeepO} but of course, with a 4 attack value, an immortal is worth more then a swords
[22:52] {DeepO} while the effect can be the same
[22:52] [10:52pm] {@alva} unless someone supplied them whith lots of workers
[22:52] {DeepO} well, who?
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@alva} J/K
[22:53] {DeepO} I know
[22:53] [10:53pm] {@alva}
[22:53] {DeepO} how are your relations with GoW, BTW?
[22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} quite fine, I'd say
[22:53] [10:53pm] {vondrack} good trades
[22:53] {DeepO} they seem to be the most friendly people on Bob
[22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} they actually helped us to catch up techwise
[22:54] {DeepO} and at least their friendliness is reall
[22:54] {DeepO} well, yes, but we offered that too
[22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} profitable to both sides, but a very fine deal
[22:54] {DeepO} and at fewer expense to you
[22:54] [10:54pm] {vondrack} yes, with friendliness, you never know...
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} yes, we'd have difficult times catching up w/o the deal we made with them
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} we'd bleed gold-wise
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} perhaps have to trade our map
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} etc.
[22:55] {DeepO} maybe
[22:55] {DeepO} we offered it for a very limited amount of gold
[22:55] [10:55pm] {vondrack} GoW was great to deal with
[22:55] {DeepO} and I'm sure we would have settled to get one tech in return
[22:56] {DeepO} but that's all hindsight
[22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} the problem was that you were quite far away
[22:56] {DeepO} true
[22:56] {DeepO} the thing is, we know that many times, we don't need an immediate advantage to gain in the long term
[22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} and we did not want to risk harming our relations with GoW by sailing throug "their" waters
[22:56] [10:56pm] {vondrack} so we took the deal
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} yes, that's our approach as well
[22:57] [10:57pm] {nbarclay} "A bird in the hand," right?
[22:57] {DeepO} which was good, I think
[22:57] {DeepO} yeah
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} yep, exactly
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} actually, GoW is our closest neighbour
[22:57] {DeepO} for us, and this has not changed, it's important that Lego grows to be stronger then anyone on Bob
[22:57] [10:57pm] {vondrack} so we are trying to maintain good relations
[22:57] [10:57pm] {@alva} How far is Vox from your west side btw?
[22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} VERY far
[22:58] {DeepO} we the same, once we take Vox, GoW is only 1 tile away
[22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} like
[22:58] [10:58pm] {@alva}
[22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} let me check
[22:58] [10:58pm] {vondrack} like 1/3-1/4 of the minimap width, I think
[22:59] [10:59pm] {vondrack} much farther than Bob
[22:59] [10:59pm] {@alva} auch
[22:59] {DeepO} Bob is only a few tiles away...
[22:59] {DeepO} has GoW explored even more to your North, in search for iron islands?
[22:59] [10:59pm] {@alva} looks like we're never gonna invade you then, or vice-versa
[22:59] {DeepO}
[23:00] {DeepO} which was my point: we would gain most if Lego is strong
[23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} not until Transports
[23:00] {DeepO} as there is no risk millitary, noth could help each other building
[23:00] [11:00pm] {vondrack} re: GoW... they seem to be mapping our coast, probably
[23:00] [11:00pm] {@alva} and serve as a deterent
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} well, we keep an eye out on them
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} so far, they haven't tried to land anywhere
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} but on the Mystery Island
[23:01] [11:01pm] {vondrack} that is what they call Baby Bob
[23:01] {DeepO} they are starting on 'our' (as in Vox-GS) coast too
[23:01] [11:01pm] {@alva} any team attacking one of us, will be weak'ened) on the other side
[23:01] {DeepO} Baby bob is strange
[23:02] {DeepO} what good would it do to them
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} no idea
[23:02] {DeepO} if not strategicval?
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} what I especially don't get is why they plopped TWO cities there
[23:02] {DeepO} in that they could use it as a base of support to get to Legoland
[23:02] {DeepO} one hut?
[23:02] {DeepO} was there a hut when you saw it first?
[23:02] [11:02pm] {vondrack} yep, there was
[23:03] {DeepO} might explain it...
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} but GoW beat us to it
[23:03] {DeepO} ah, you watched?
[23:03] {DeepO} settler?
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} not really - we explored the coast of Baby Bob before they came there
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} so we can see what's going on there
[23:03] {DeepO} hmmm
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} cities and such
[23:03] [11:03pm] {vondrack} and btw, we can still see there hut there, I think
[23:03] {DeepO} one sec
[23:04] {DeepO} I'll check
[23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} since we were not in the area for quite some time
[23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} but it's been popped
[23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} long time ago
[23:04] [11:04pm] {vondrack} I am sure
[23:04] [11:04pm] {nbarclay} I wonder if maybe GoW forgot about not being able to irrigate without a water source until the industrial age.
[23:04] {DeepO} yeah, the hut is gone
[23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} I believe they got a tech out of it
[23:05] {DeepO} that would be stupid, I can't believe that
[23:05] {DeepO} (iirr, I mean)
[23:05] [11:05pm] {vondrack} Polytheism it was? I think so
[23:05] [11:05pm] {Sharpe} That might explain how GoW suddenly offered us Polytheism Vondrack
[23:05] {DeepO} aha, that would explain how that tech got distrubted so fast
[23:06] {DeepO} maybe they are running from ND
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} yes, it coincided with the distribution of Polytheism, as far as I can recall
[23:06] {DeepO} I don't those two teams like each other much
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} ND is a mystery to us
[23:06] {DeepO} Yeah, they don't talk a lot
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} we offered them a fine deal
[23:06] [11:06pm] {Sharpe} wrapped up in an enigma
[23:06] [11:06pm] {nbarclay} I think they're a mystery to everyone.
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} yet they turned it down
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} hehe
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} yes
[23:06] [11:06pm] {vondrack} but they are doing quite well
[23:07] [11:07pm] {vondrack} considering how little diplomacy they conduct
[23:07] [11:07pm] {@alva} Still, settling on Bob counts Dounble from a GOW POV, (gain and denial)
[23:07] [11:07pm] {@alva} *double
[23:07] [11:07pm] {Sharpe} ND's city pattern is quite spherical
[23:07] {DeepO} they're good
[23:08] {DeepO} their cities are using a max of resources, without wasting travel time for their troops
[23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} I wonder... could it be there is some kind of a border treaty between GoW & ND, forbidding more GoW settlements on Bob?
[23:08] {DeepO} no there isn't
[23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} this might explain their cities on Baby Bob
[23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} hmmm... then I truly don't know
[23:08] [11:08pm] {@redstar1} they didn't want us to get it most likely
[23:08] [11:08pm] {@redstar1} or anyone else
[23:08] {DeepO} the way I understand it, they warn each other when a settler leaves for a spot, and the other directs its settlers elsewhere
[23:08] [11:08pm] {vondrack} perhaps
[23:08] [11:08pm] {@redstar1} its the lentini factor
[23:09] {DeepO} further, they try to not upset each other
[23:09] {DeepO} by settling too close
[23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} what language are you speaking now, redstar?
[23:09] {DeepO} which also explains why the former Lux lands aren't settled yet

[DeepO]

[23:09] [11:09pm] {vondrack} they both probably wait for their UUs
[23:09] {DeepO} yes
[23:09] {DeepO} but where is RP in all of this?
[23:09] [11:09pm] {Sharpe} that should be interesting
[23:10] {DeepO} are they going to join one side, to the other?
[23:10] [11:10pm] {@alva} I wonder what they all are going to do with their UU and GA's
[23:10] [11:10pm] {vondrack} hmmm... RPers... you certainly noticed they are not building an empire, but a wall, right?
[23:10] {DeepO} certainly
[23:10] [11:10pm] {@alva} Expand on BoB, or beyond..
[23:10] {DeepO} but it wouldn't surpise me if they would join with GoW, and divide ND between them
[23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} I guess they are scared of those UUs...
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@redstar1} RP have ample land to settle in their south
[23:11] [11:11pm] {vondrack} that is quite likely, yes
[23:11] {DeepO} which is also why they fear the both of us: we could easily land beneath their wall
[23:11] [11:11pm] {Sharpe} oh are you that close to RP there?
[23:11] [11:11pm] {@redstar1} would be a great shame if they had pyramids
[23:11] {DeepO} ampple land, certainly. But not if we decide to take up camp there
[23:12] {DeepO} not really, we can't reach it directly
[23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} along the Vox coast only?
[23:12] {DeepO} yep
[23:12] {DeepO} but still, this would be enough
[23:12] [11:12pm] {vondrack} hmmm.. do you happen to have an idea of Vox navy?
[23:12] {DeepO} yeah, well, we know they have at least 2 galleys
[23:13] {DeepO} but not how many they have over that
[23:13] [11:13pm] {@alva} yep, it sinks very fast
[23:13] {DeepO} and we know they have no harbor, so only regs
[23:13] {DeepO} do you have any more info?
[23:13] [11:13pm] {vondrack} ok, that's fine... we are going to be very suspicious towards anyone having more than 5 of them
[23:13] {DeepO}
[23:13] {DeepO} well, doesn't have GoW at least 4 galleys?
[23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} I can't recall now... have you asked if we are suspicious toward GoW?
[23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack}
[23:14] [11:14pm] {vondrack} j/k
[23:14] [11:14pm] {@redstar1} lol
[23:14] {DeepO} well, I would be, if they settled so close to me
[23:14] {DeepO} but GoW isn't sneaky
[23:14] {DeepO} they are quite brute
[23:15] {DeepO} which is fine, really, you know what you can expect when talking to them
[23:15] [11:15pm] {@redstar1} well we made no official claim on mystery island, and it is closer to them than us....
[23:15] [11:15pm] {vondrack} yes... they made it clear they were determined to get it
[23:15] [11:15pm] {vondrack} it did not seem like a reason good enough to go to war with them
[23:15] {DeepO} which is fine, I think GoW needs room to expand more then any other Bob team
[23:15] [11:15pm] {vondrack} especially because - as you correctly noted - it is not the best piece of land on this map
[23:16] {DeepO}
[23:16] {DeepO} well, some of our territory would be worse then that
[23:16] {DeepO} but has access to water
[23:16] [11:16pm] {vondrack} oops...
[23:16] {DeepO}
[23:16] [11:16pm] {nbarclay} And from what little we've seen of it, Lego isn't exactly hurting for land elsewhere.
[23:17] [11:17pm] {Sharpe} good land is at a premium
[23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} with the Pyramids finished now, you can imagine we were not really keen on going to war at that time
[23:17] {DeepO} of course
[23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} on of our core cities was too busy
[23:17] {DeepO} buut be careful, as other know this too
[23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} it was sort of a risk
[23:17] {DeepO} it still is
[23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} you know what is funny?
[23:17] {DeepO} ?
[23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} it was initially not a Pyramid build
[23:17] [11:17pm] {vondrack} but Great Library
[23:18] {DeepO}
[23:18] [11:18pm] {Sharpe} lol, it changed several times actually
[23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} to make sure we'd be able to catch up
[23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} but after we did catch up
[23:18] {DeepO} didn't I ask you that in our first chat? It made a lot of sense
[23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} w/o GLib
[23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} we were looking foe something else, preventing a shield waste
[23:18] {DeepO} but as I can tell you from one of our internal PBEM games, the GL is many times too much
[23:18] [11:18pm] {vondrack} Pyramids made sense
[23:19] {DeepO} in that it really is a bulls eyes for other civs
[23:19] {DeepO} bullseye
[23:19] [11:19pm] {Sharpe} besides we didn't want anyone on Bob to get the Pyramids there
[23:19] {DeepO} or us
[23:19] [11:19pm] {vondrack} well, yes... but what other chance we'd have if not crossing the sea so soon?
[23:19] [11:19pm] {Sharpe} Bob was much more of a worry with all that land
[23:19] [11:19pm] {vondrack} just imagine contacting the rest of the world with a lag of 8 techs... :scary:
[23:19] {DeepO} of course... actually, in the same situation, I would have build the GL, but not build a galley
[23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} heh... that was our plan
[23:20] {DeepO} and let me be discovered
[23:20] {DeepO}
[23:20] [11:20pm] {Sharpe} until we saw Baby Bob...
[23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} but then Baby Bob appeared
[23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} until GoW saw it actually
[23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} we missed it
[23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} even though we did have a chance to see it
[23:20] {DeepO} hmm.. things tend to change quickly in this game, no?
[23:20] [11:20pm] {Sharpe} actually Zargon saw it
[23:20] [11:20pm] {vondrack} slipped our attention at that time
[23:20] {DeepO} ah, that's unfortunate
[23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} it was about 15 turns into the game
[23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} our first warrior got to the Northernmost tip of Legos Major
[23:21] {DeepO} Do you have any kind of deal with GoW, where they don't settle your lands?
[23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} and was actually able to see a tiny bit of coastal waters
[23:21] [11:21pm] {vondrack} no, we do not
[23:21] {DeepO} maybe good to ask them
[23:22] {DeepO} and see their reaction
[23:22] [11:22pm] {@redstar1} its taken as read i think that we would not appreciate it
[23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} but we made it very clear we are going to attack anything landing on "our" soil
[23:22] {DeepO} well, that's the same, of course
[23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} yes
[23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} and they seem to understand
[23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} happily sail around us
[23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} doing nothing bad
[23:22] [11:22pm] {vondrack} let's hope it will last
[23:23] {DeepO} I hope it for you
[23:23] [11:23pm] {Sharpe} if you have the map of our coast , clearly they are selling their map around
[23:23] {DeepO} well, not necessarily
[23:23] [11:23pm] {vondrack} how come?
[23:23] {DeepO} we got our map from Vox, as said with the last payment acknowledged the moment war started
[23:23] [11:23pm] {nbarclay} If GoW is the only one sailing around, that's who our information on Lego has to have originated from.
[23:23] [11:23pm] Kloreep (~ben@66-90-192-11.grandecom.net) is now known as Kloreep-AFK
[23:24] [11:24pm] {Sharpe} ah interesting
[23:24] {DeepO} we suspect it came from RP
[23:24] {DeepO} which means that the Bobians are exchanging maps
[23:24] [11:24pm] {nbarclay} Is anyone besides GoW nosing around your lands?
[23:24] [11:24pm] {vondrack} well, there is one more thing
[23:24] [11:24pm] {Sharpe} what do you see of our map? out of curiousity?
[23:24] [11:24pm] {vondrack} ND established an embassy with us
[23:24] [11:24pm] {vondrack} we did not understand why they did it
[23:24] {DeepO} maps: we see as much as GoW had explored, we think up to 7-9 turns ago
[23:25] [11:25pm] {Sharpe} any of our cities?
[23:25] {DeepO} so one trail going North
[23:25] {DeepO} you mean your capital
[23:25] {DeepO} ?
[23:25] [11:25pm] {Sharpe} oh you see that?
[23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} btw - can you see our capital on the map?
[23:25] {DeepO} yeah
[23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} that means ND trade their map around!
[23:25] [11:25pm] {vondrack} noone else can see it
[23:26] {DeepO} we could, it would be rather easy
[23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} noone else established an embassy
[23:26] {DeepO} but you would notice, of course
[23:26] [11:26pm] {nbarclay} We see Legpopolis and something that at least starts Panama.
[23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} yes, of course
[23:26] {DeepO} ND: still, we think it came from RP
[23:26] [11:26pm] {vondrack} dunno...
[23:26] [11:26pm] Kloreep-AFK (~ben@66-90-192-11.grandecom.net) is now known as Kloreep
[23:26] {DeepO} add to that the GoW map
[23:27] {DeepO} or at least their exploartion of your coasts
[23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} it's a bit too complicated for someone who had a bottle of red wine two hours ago...
[23:27] {DeepO} and you have 3 trading teams
[23:27] {DeepO}
[23:27] {DeepO} I can imagine, I had wine with dinner as well
[23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack}
[23:27] {DeepO} hence the title of this chatroom
[23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} oh!
[23:27] {DeepO}
[23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} it is even the same as in Czech!
[23:27] [11:27pm] {vondrack} vÃno
[23:27] {DeepO} well, this was Latin
[23:27] {DeepO} not Dutch
[23:28] {DeepO} would it be too much to ask who you got your map from, and when?
[23:28] [11:28pm] {vondrack} hehe
[23:28] [11:28pm] {vondrack} I think we can tell you
[23:29] {DeepO} great
[23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} it was actually very funny
[23:29] [11:29pm] {Sharpe} hilarious more like
[23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} few turns after we made contact with GoW
[23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} ND approached us and offered a contact to you & their world map
[23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} sent a PM
[23:29] [11:29pm] {vondrack} asked for some gold (50?) and our map
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} we PMed them back, explaining we were not trading our map under any circumstances
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} but we agreed to pay 50 gold for your contact
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} seemed the right thing to do
[23:30] {DeepO}
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} anyway - what I did was I threw in 50 gold
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} and "accepted"
[23:30] [11:30pm] {vondrack} sent back
[23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} sent a PM explaining what it meant
[23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} expected them to take the map out
[23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} accept and... you get the idea
[23:31] {DeepO} I hear you coming
[23:31] {DeepO}
[23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} well, the next turn, we got the save and had their map
[23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} and a PM
[23:31] {DeepO} so your is rather outdated when it comes to improvement
[23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} explaining their leader made a mistake
[23:31] [11:31pm] {vondrack} misunderstanding what it all was about
[23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} yes, it is
[23:32] [11:32pm] {Sharpe} but we do see the new cities as they pop up
[23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} we can see cities, but the improvements must be quite outdated
[23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} on with the story
[23:32] {DeepO} maybe there is some merit in exchanging screenshots of the map of Bob, ours is 2 turns old
[23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} by chance
[23:32] {DeepO} sure (story going on)
[23:32] [11:32pm] {vondrack} we got your contact for free
[23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} or, rather
[23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} YOU got it from GoW on that very turn
[23:33] {DeepO} (whiich was also kind of unexpected)
[23:33] [11:33pm] {nbarclay} Part of the deal to let them trade you Code of Laws, as I recall.
[23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} so it all actually ended up that we let them keep the money (for "nothing") and they were ok with us having the map
[23:33] {DeepO}
[23:33] [11:33pm] {vondrack} we effectively got the map of Bob for 50 gold
[23:34] {DeepO} 50 gold for a WM is no bad deal at all!
[23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} now, that was cheap, wasn't it?
[23:34] [11:34pm] {vondrack} yes )
[23:34] [11:34pm] {nbarclay} Ours cost 95 gold.
[23:34] [11:34pm] {nbarclay} And Vox attacked us the moment the sale was completed.
[23:34] {DeepO} which we thought to also be a bargain
[23:34] {DeepO} yeah, those cheats... but they will feel our wrath
[23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} hm... they must have been desperate for cash, right?
[23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} I mean... giving their map to you?
[23:35] {DeepO} the strange thing is, not really
[23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} right before they start a war??
[23:35] {DeepO} we think it was simply to get as much out of our coffers as possible
[23:35] {DeepO} well, we thinkg Vox is still sitting on a kind of large reserve of cash
[23:35] [11:35pm] {vondrack} ah, yes, that's the other side of the coin
[23:36] [11:36pm] {nbarclay} They probably figured that if the fighting got far enough north for the map to do us much good, they were doomed anyhow.
[23:36] {DeepO} and they can't use it for upgrading, nor for rushin
[23:36] {DeepO} we are rather terrified it would all flow to RP, if they would get down to 1 or 2 cities
[23:36] [11:36pm] {vondrack} yes, that makes sense (re: doomed)
[23:37] {DeepO} Ah, Vox...
[23:37] {DeepO} we really liked them, you know
[23:37] [11:37pm] {vondrack} hmmm... to RPers... what could be done against it?
[23:37] {DeepO} one thing can be done: trade embagro against them
[23:38] {DeepO} instead of them against us
[23:38] {DeepO} they would feel it very fast
[23:38] [11:38pm] {Sharpe} those luxuries will be a problem though if they get them
[23:38] [11:38pm] {vondrack} no, I meant something different
[23:38] {DeepO} but we need Bobians in the deal
[23:38] {DeepO} ?
[23:38] [11:38pm] {vondrack} I meant - what could be done against RPers getting Vox gold?
[23:38] {DeepO} nothing at all
[23:38] [11:38pm] {vondrack} what about saving Voxes? letting them live?
[23:39] {DeepO} We can't run fast enough to get it ourselves
[23:39] {DeepO} No deal
[23:39] {DeepO} they have offended us
[23:39] [11:39pm] {vondrack} not an option for you, I understand
[23:39] [11:39pm] {vondrack} yes
[23:39] {DeepO} we have screamed from the beginning that we are going to play this game honorably
[23:39] {DeepO} so we can't allow anyone to abuse us
[23:39] {DeepO} so that we lose face
[23:39] [11:39pm] {vondrack} I was thinking about something like... letting them save their life... only because of someone's mercy
[23:40] {DeepO} if they find refuge some where else, it's fine
[23:40] [11:40pm] {vondrack} much like what they did to Luxes
[23:40] {DeepO} but they will be driven off our continent
[23:40] [11:40pm] {nbarclay} If it were me, I don't think I'd want to stay in the game if I had no chance of being even halfway competitive.
[23:40] {DeepO} very true
[23:40] {DeepO} which was one of the reasons why they attacked
[23:40] [11:40pm] {nbarclay} I'd rather be conquered and be done with it.
[23:40] [11:40pm] {vondrack} hmmm.... that is something I will have to think about
[23:41] {DeepO} are you planning to lose ground soon?
[23:41] [11:41pm] {vondrack} nah...
[23:41] [11:41pm] {vondrack} I was...
[23:41] [11:41pm] {vondrack} it's such a wild idea
[23:41] [11:41pm] {vondrack} gimme a sec, please
[23:41] {DeepO} wild ideas are most of the times the best
[23:41] {DeepO} sure
[23:42] [11:42pm] {vondrack} see... if the gold flowing to RPers (or anyone else, for that matter) should become a problem
[23:43] [11:43pm] {vondrack} it might be possible to jump them to our landmass, much like what they did with Luxes

[DeepO]

[23:43] {DeepO} be very cautious with that one
[23:43] {DeepO} sure, the gold is fine
[23:43] [11:43pm] {vondrack} we are staying fairly neutral in this war
[23:43] {DeepO} but don't burn your fingers
[23:43] [11:43pm] {vondrack} so they might agree
[23:44] [11:44pm] {vondrack} we have a peninsula here... Legos Minor - mostly mountains
[23:44] {DeepO} well... we wouldn't mind at all
[23:44] [11:44pm] {vondrack} but room enough for about 4 cities
[23:44] {DeepO} (make that 2 if Vox is planning)
[23:44] [11:44pm] {vondrack} hehe
[23:44] [11:44pm] {vondrack} ok, I will keep that in mind
[23:44] [11:44pm] {Sharpe} no irrigation possible there don't forget...
[23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} and if the need emerges
[23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} we can discuss that again
[23:45] {DeepO} well, really, we don't mind, but watch out how it will be looked upon by Bob
[23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} yep, no fresh water
[23:45] {DeepO} and, Vox has a reputation to breaking deals
[23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} hmmm... that's right
[23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} as I said - just a wild idea
[23:45] [11:45pm] {Sharpe} they wouldn't stand a chance against our mercs...
[23:45] {DeepO} I can only imagine others are wanting to do it too
[23:45] [11:45pm] {vondrack} saving them?
[23:46] {DeepO} not afraid of immortals, are you
[23:46] [11:46pm] {vondrack} getting the gold?
[23:46] {DeepO} yeah, noth
[23:46] {DeepO} both
[23:46] {DeepO} but the latter most
[23:46] [11:46pm] {nbarclay} Just make sure they don't get iron, or your mercs might not be quite so invulnerable.
[23:46] [11:46pm] {vondrack} nah... immos are less than impressive against mercs
[23:46] [11:46pm] {vondrack} plus, immos can't swim THAT far
[23:46] [11:46pm] {vondrack}
[23:46] {DeepO}
[23:47] [11:47pm] {vondrack} swimmortals swim short distance only )
[23:47] {DeepO} well, if they really have a large amount of cash (lets say 500 gold), a lot is possible
[23:47] {DeepO} but you have to be able to take them out, the first moment of trouble
[23:47] [11:47pm] {vondrack} sure
[23:47] {DeepO} like Vox did with Lux, only uncalled for
[23:48] [11:48pm] {vondrack} yep, I understand
[23:48] {DeepO} Don't put a stigma on yourselves, as Vox has done
[23:48] {DeepO} we were attacked for defending them on more othen one occasion
[23:48] {DeepO} and see what has come from that
[23:48] [11:48pm] {vondrack} yes...
[23:49] {DeepO} oh well
[23:49] [11:49pm] {vondrack} just a sec - let me get a can of coke
[23:49] {DeepO} we'll live
[23:49] {DeepO} sure
[23:49] {DeepO} maybe, in the mean time, just a little deal we could be working on
[23:49] {DeepO} (kind of home work for the coming week)
[23:49] [11:49pm] {vondrack} ok, back
[23:50] {DeepO} you shouldn't be able to get theo before next Sunday, right?
[23:50] [11:50pm] {vondrack} no, not that fast
[23:50] {DeepO} so, if we can decide what we go for, we should be able to make a deal with yuo
[23:50] [11:50pm] {vondrack} unless you stop sitting on the save all the time
[23:50] {DeepO} do you have any special requests?
[23:50] {DeepO} no chance, we like sitting on it
[23:50] {DeepO}
[23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} oh, I would never dare to "request" anything
[23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack}
[23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} I mean
[23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} ATM, we have no deals signed
[23:51] {DeepO} why not? we would want to hear where you want to go to.
[23:51] {DeepO} we're not RP... we make requests from time to time
[23:51] [11:51pm] {vondrack} hehe
[23:52] {DeepO} you told you were gong for edu
[23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} yes, we are
[23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} actually, the goal is Astronomy
[23:52] [11:52pm] {Sharpe} any tech we trade for is one less we have to research of course
[23:52] [11:52pm] {nbarclay} The "sitting on a save" phenomenon is what happens when you try to run a war by committee.
[23:52] {DeepO} which would make it logical for us to take the Southern bracnh
[23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} to allow trading over sea tiles
[23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack} yes, that sounds logical
[23:52] {DeepO} okay, that's logical too
[23:52] {DeepO}
[23:52] [11:52pm] {vondrack}
[23:53] {DeepO} the thing is, we really can't say when, and how we're going to resume research
[23:53] [11:53pm] {vondrack} I fully understand
[23:53] {DeepO} but we would hope that around the time you finish Theo, we get to another tech ourselves
[23:53] {DeepO} so that we can trade...
[23:53] [11:53pm] {vondrack} that's quite likely, yes
[23:53] {DeepO} (if by that time, you're not bound by an embargo against us)
[23:53] {DeepO}
[23:54] [11:54pm] {vondrack} I do not think we are going to participate in any embargoes...
[23:54] [11:54pm] {vondrack}
[23:54] {DeepO} maybe
[23:54] [11:54pm] {nbarclay} Do we want to sign a treaty that neither of us will agree to any kind of embargo against the other?
[23:54] {DeepO} good idea
[23:54] [11:54pm] {@redstar1} or if we do it will be like the russian participation in the arms embargo to iraq
[23:54] [11:54pm] {nbarclay} LOL
[23:54] [11:54pm] {vondrack} I think it would not be a problem
[23:55] [11:55pm] {vondrack} or what redstar says, LoL
[23:55] [11:55pm] {@redstar1} i don't think we would want to go down the road of embargos etc
[23:55] {DeepO} maybe you will need to
[23:55] [11:55pm] {@redstar1} i don't see how
[23:55] [11:55pm] {Kloreep} Have to go; nice chat (not that I participated much ). Bye!
[23:55] {DeepO} Bob reuniting would be enough
[23:55] [11:55pm] {vondrack} bye
[23:55] [11:55pm] Quits: Kloreep (~ben@66-90-192-11.grandecom.net) (Quit
[23:55] {DeepO} bye!
[23:56] {DeepO} damn.. too late
[23:56] [11:56pm] {vondrack} Kloreep is always fast...
[23:56] [11:56pm] {Sharpe} Bob uniting would be a worry for all I would imagine...
[23:56] [11:56pm] {@redstar1} i don't see how that would force us into an embargo though
[23:56] {DeepO} well, not if there are only 2 teams left
[23:56] {DeepO} we can, together, outresearch Bob
[23:56] {DeepO} and they could, if they want, embargo just one of us, and research him to death
[23:57] [11:57pm] {vondrack} yes, 2 vs 3 should work
[23:57] [11:57pm] {@redstar1} well thats not so much an embargo as a policy statement
[23:57] {DeepO} true
[23:57] {DeepO} but the way things are going, this might turn to that
[23:57] [11:57pm] {@redstar1} perhaps
[23:57] [11:57pm] {@redstar1} but its a long way away
[23:57] {DeepO} it will be very interesting how the UUs do on Bob
[23:57] [11:57pm] {nbarclay} There are really two potential dangers from Bob:
[23:57] {DeepO} we should have a good feeling once they have settled
[23:58] [11:58pm] {nbarclay} 1) They might unite against the outside world.
[23:58] [11:58pm] {Sharpe} yeah, when they have settled will be a crucial moment
[23:58] [11:58pm] {nbarclay} 2) One of them might essentially take out the other two, creating an enormous monster.
[23:58] {DeepO} Sharpe, this comes rather soon... only 20-25 turns from now
[23:58] [11:58pm] {Sharpe} well for ND and GoW sooner, for RP later than that
[23:59] {DeepO} and Nathan, I agree. 1) would be a problem as they can join forces with the remainder of Vox
[23:59] [11:59pm] {vondrack} Nathan, such a monster would be something to attack immediately from both sides
[23:59] {DeepO} and invade either us, or Lego very early
[23:59] {DeepO} monster: true
[23:59] {DeepO} but this is exactly our problem
[23:59] {DeepO} Vox forced us into becoming a monster
[23:59] {DeepO} and your pyramids will grow you into one for free
Session Close: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2003

I seem to miss part of the log (damn mIRC, now I can connect, but it erases part of my log), Nathan, do you have a copy of the last page or so?

DeepO

[DeepO]

Ah, never mind, I found it. It changed dates...

One of these days, I'm going to think before posting something

Session Start: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2003

Session Time: Mon Apr 14 00:00:00 2003

[00:00] {DeepO} At least, this is how Bob will see us
[00:01] [12:01am] {nbarclay} The funny thing is, even after we conquer Vox, we aren't really huge by Bobian standards. And our land isn't exactly the ideal shape.
[00:01] [12:01am] {vondrack} fortunately, even if Bobians perceive us or you as threat, it will take them some time to get into a position to invade overseas
[00:01] {DeepO} True... but we will be biggest. If Lego doesn't pass us in size
[00:02] [12:02am] {vondrack} size does not really matter... shields and gold do
[00:02] [12:02am] {Sharpe} Right now - are any of the Bob civs bigger than your area? (without Vox)
[00:02] [12:02am] {vondrack} the less territory one needs to protect, the better
[00:02] {DeepO} ah, but both of those are related to amount of pop, and quality of land
[00:02] [12:02am] {vondrack} if it gives gold and shields enough
[00:02] [12:02am] {vondrack} yes, of course
[00:02] {DeepO} Sharpe, in area? yes, I think
[00:03] [12:03am] {@redstar1} ok lads i'm off to bed here, early start in the AM, i'll keep the window open though for logging:@)
[00:03] {DeepO} we have very few land, but we use it well
[00:03] [12:03am] {vondrack} ok, bye, redstar!
[00:03] {DeepO} bye redstar1!
[00:03] [12:03am] {Sharpe} Bye Redstar!
[00:03] {DeepO} have a good night sleep
[00:03] [12:03am] {nbarclay} Bye
[00:04] [12:04am] {vondrack} well, guys, do we have any more agenda today?
[00:04] [12:04am] {vondrack} or a summary perhaps?
[00:04] {DeepO} I was thinking the same
[00:04] {DeepO} (agenda, not summary)
[00:05] [12:05am] {vondrack} I guess we talked about everything important
[00:05] {DeepO} true... anything else: never be afraid to ask
[00:05] [12:05am] {vondrack} I do not think so... you are quite a typist, DeepO!
[00:05] [12:05am] {Sharpe} What your iron situation like?
[00:05] {DeepO} I am?
[00:06] {DeepO} yyou should have seen me before my accident
[00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} you always give out so much info
[00:06] {DeepO} well... these are my views...
[00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} typing faster than anyone else
[00:06] [12:06am] {nbarclay} Our iron situation is adequate, but not overflowing.
[00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} btw, may I ask one question?
[00:06] {DeepO} maybe. I suspect Nathan is faster thought
[00:06] {DeepO} shoot
[00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} it may sound stupid, but...
[00:06] [12:06am] {nbarclay} Of course it will get a little better when we have Vox's iron.
[00:06] [12:06am] {vondrack} you know, we have two iron sources connected
[00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} but only one of them shows in the resource summary???
[00:07] {DeepO} ?
[00:07] {DeepO} You mean one used only?
[00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} and they ARE both connected to the capital
[00:07] [12:07am] {Sharpe} Oh, Vox's iron is that close?
[00:07] {DeepO} not very far
[00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} well, under the iron icon in the resource box, there is
[00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} "1"
[00:07] {DeepO} it's outside their borders
[00:07] [12:07am] {vondrack} instead of "2"
[00:08] {DeepO} and in your trade advisor?
[00:08] [12:08am] {Sharpe} hmm, a colony!?
[00:08] {DeepO} yep
[00:08] {DeepO} nice target, no?
[00:08] [12:08am] {nbarclay} Unfortunately, it has jungle protecting it from our WCs.
[00:08] [12:08am] {Sharpe} Indeed, especially with their immos - but probably heavily guarded I would imagine
[00:09] {DeepO} maybe... doesn't matter
[00:09] {DeepO} we only need to raze the closest city, or a road leading to it
[00:09] [12:09am] {nbarclay} Every unit they have guarding their iron is one they can't use on the front lines.
[00:09] [12:09am] {nbarclay} And if we cut their road.
[00:10] {DeepO} and still they think their superiour in strategic position, because they attacked us first...
[00:10] [12:10am] {nbarclay} Well, it's a better strategic position than they'd be in if we knew they were about to attack us.
[00:10] {DeepO} mystery iron
[00:10] [12:10am] {vondrack} sorry... was checking the save for that iron weirdness
[00:10] {DeepO} maybe you don't see it, because you can't trade it?
[00:11] {DeepO} do you have the same problem with dyes, if more then one is connected?
[00:11] [12:11am] {vondrack} nope, I am checking the city screens
[00:11] [12:11am] {nbarclay} Normally, Iron, 1 extra would be ghosted if you can't trade it.
[00:11] [12:11am] {Sharpe} or maybe we were using it for that turn?
[00:11] [12:11am] {vondrack} we do not have iron in the trading screen at all
[00:11] {DeepO} well, but not in a city view
[00:11] {DeepO} that's weird
[00:11] [12:11am] {vondrack} city screen show 1 iron, trade adv. none
[00:11] {DeepO} you're sure you have 2 sources, right?
[00:11] [12:11am] {vondrack} yep, absolutely
[00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} just that one got connected in two "stages"
[00:12] [12:12am] {nbarclay} What happens when you open the trade screen to another civ?
[00:12] {DeepO} very strange, I have never seen that
[00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} first to our road network below the jungle
[00:12] {DeepO} «vondrack» explain?
[00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} and then when we finally built the road through the jungle
[00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} to our capital
[00:12] {DeepO} that shouldn't matter
[00:12] [12:12am] {vondrack} I would think so
[00:12] {DeepO} I've done that with rubber on islands lots of times
[00:13] {DeepO} never noticed that problem
[00:13] [12:13am] {vondrack} I thought you might know if there is bug like this?
[00:13] {DeepO} and I was able to trade my last resource to someone else
[00:13] {DeepO} well, never heared of it
[00:13] {DeepO} but we'll ask in GS
[00:13] [12:13am] {vondrack} nevermind... just thought I'd ask
[00:13] {DeepO} maybe Aeson knows, he's most up to date with this kind of thing
[00:14] {DeepO} I'll check, and get back to you
[00:14] [12:14am] Quits: Tiberius (~tibi.k@81.196.249.192) (Ping timeout)
[00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} ok, thanks
[00:14] {DeepO} anything else?
[00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} do not put too much effort into this
[00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} you need to focus elsewhere
[00:14] {DeepO} np, these kind of things are fun too dig through
[00:14] {DeepO} true...
[00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack} I guess it is time to get some sleep now
[00:14] {DeepO} yeah, that's what ai was thinking too
[00:14] [12:14am] {vondrack}
[00:15] [12:15am] {Sharpe} yeah, what is it 1:20 am there?
[00:15] [12:15am] {vondrack} 0:20
[00:15] {DeepO} no, 0:20 for me
[00:15] [12:15am] {Sharpe} hmm only 4 hours ahead now then
[00:15] {DeepO} but still, heavy weekend to recuperate from
[00:15] [12:15am] {Sharpe} oops , nuts 6 hours
[00:15] [12:15am] {vondrack} ok, then, I wish everybody sweet dreams!
[00:15] {DeepO} bye everyone
[00:15] [12:15am] {Sharpe} Night, nice chat!
[00:15] [12:15am] {vondrack} g'night!
[00:15] {DeepO} I'm logging off to
[00:15] {DeepO} too
[00:16] {DeepO} see you
[00:16] [12:16am] {nbarclay} Bye everyone. It's been great chatting.
[00:16] [12:16am] {vondrack} yep, the pleasure was ours
[00:16] [12:16am] {vondrack} bye
[00:16] [12:16am] Quits: nbarclay (~nbarclay@rbn1-216-180-19-109.adsl.hiwaay.net) (Quit: IceChat IRC Client - Download at www.IceChat.net)
Session Close: Mon Apr 14 00:16:29 2003

[alva]

I know I'm not supposed to post here, but AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Do you realise that's 3 hours worth of DeepO typing !!!!!!!

(just edit this post with a next message, had to get it of my chest )

[DeepO]

phhh... I was out of stuff to tell them, so it wasn't really at full speed. Plus, as said, I fully suspect Nathan is a faster typist then I am, I don't think I'll get to 300 chars per minute anymore (with typos)

Actually, it's nice to see the thank you notes each week, they might think we gave a lot of info, but of course we give a lot of info we want to give to Lego. The more they are willing to accept the general stuff, the more they will also follow our views, or at least think about what we mention as concerns. I'm pretty sure RP is now viewed upon a lot less favorable then before.

Anyway, the iron mystery has been solved, they moved a city, and the second source was outside their cultural borders. No wonder it doesn't show up

Well, I found it one of the strangest bugs I heared of, so it's good to see it has been resolved.

See you soon,
DeepO

Hi, DeepO!

It is quite embarrasing, but my yesterday's question about the "missing" iron was actually extremely stupid. We do have it roaded and connected to the capital, but it is not within our cultural borders yet (we eventually repositioned the nearest city and I am still having it mixed), as one of our members not attending the chat pointed out to me today, after reading the log in our forum.

Forget about the problem, please, there is none.

Sorry for wasting your time.

Cheers,
vondrack