Turn 244: 1270 AD

[vmxa1]

They have 15 transports, but unless they are filled and at sea now they will not be a factor. We will either bust them or be in deep trouble in a few turns.

Remember they will not have a second front or any help on an invasion.

I don't know what Vox is doing, but they are not long for the world, if Lego does not stop the invasion. They should be tossign what they have in to defend Lego now.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vmxa1
They have 15 transports, but unless they are filled and at sea now they will not be a factor. We will either bust them or be in deep trouble in a few turns.

I do not disagree, however they don't need to be filled, vmxa. Lego can chain just as easily as we can. Plus, they only need 2 chain hubs instead of 3 because of Magellan's. With chaining, that's still 7 transports full of troops, which is way too much for us if we don't detect them in time. I'm not saying we have to build the navy which can deal with such a threat, but we do need to have the scouts, so we at least can put some land defenses in order.

I don't know what Vox is doing, but they are not long for the world, if Lego does not stop the invasion. They should be tossign what they have in to defend Lego now.

Yes indeed. But look at the geographical layout: Vox can't walk into Legoland, without either using transports, or borrowing a city from Lego for 1 turn (which is certainly possible, we wouldn't even detect it as Vox is before Lego in turn order). That's a lot of trouble (high cost for Vox-Lego), and for very little extra Vox can open a second front on Stormia. I'm not saying I think this is definately going to happen soon, but it is a possibility, and one with high risks. So we should keep it in mind, and try to at least spot them coming.

DeepO

[vmxa1]

My point was not that they could not chain, but that if the units are not at sea already, they will need to use them to defend, rather than send them out on a risky invasion.

BTW can Vox not have a RoP and use that to roll across Legoland in MP?

[Krill]

No, since Invoice is on the one tile wide peninsula that links VoX to Lego.

[DeepO]

well those units aren't at sea, at least not last turn. This discussion is not for the next 2 turns, I guess, but we'll have to think on it soon enough if we want to prepare anything decent. The moment they can destroy GoW's or our invasion forces, we are in danger of chainers.

Also, they don't need a lot to damage us considerably. Our best defense (Elipolis and WoC) currently consists of 2 MI, 1 I, 2 Art. With 20 marines (which they can build in 1 turn), those cities would fall. Add a couple of infs and a couple of tanks, and they've got too much of an invasion force than we can currently handle.

And Krill is right: it's not the ROP, it's Invoice that is blocking Vox from entering Legoland. However, Vox and Lego follow each other in turn order, and it would be easy for Lego to offer Invoice to Vox for 1 turn, opening the gate to their empire. They would lose cultural buildings, and whatever is in the food and shield boxes, but that is a low cost if it keeps them from losing a city or 2.

DeepO

[vmxa1]

Ok, that makes sense. It will be a huge turn for everyone. Lego is really going to take their time.

[DeepO]

Yes indeed, this turn is going to be huge, mostly so for Lego. Last one was tense as well, but this one... if they even give us half an opening we can push through, they are going to suffer. Somehow I don't see it happening, though. If we can get ourselves into a position this turn, where next turn Lego can't keep us from attacking a city of our choice, we will have done very well.

DeepO

[Arrian]

My $.02...

Destroyers. Lots of them.

-Arrian

[Aeson]

Re: Turn 244: 1270 AD

The problem with using Airports to move units over will be that Lego can bombard our Airport(s) on their mainland away almost at will. It could still be worth it if we are sending over 8 units each turn the Airport survives, as that is cheaper than the Transport and it's Defender. We would need to rush an Airport each turn to get several units over for 200 shields. Since our Transports to do the same would likely be sunk, along with their escorts, this is still a pretty good deal. If we can pillage any roads outside our culture borders and within 2 tiles of our city then our Airport should be a lot safer.

So I think we need to either build several Airports all at once, or only 1-2 for Bomber production. I'd go with as many Airports as we can build in the next couple turns. It will take a long time before we can reasonably put up another chain once Lego finishes off this one. Next turn we could have built an Airport on Lego, and would want as many of the Airports as possible finished by that point.

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We have to have some navy or Lego will be able to bombard our coastal cities and tiles with their's. The best bet for us is going to be to use Destroyers in cities with Bombers pinging down the targets. Only after we can sink several Lego ships, or build a sizeable navy back up, should we be putting out to sea. Lego just has so much of an advantage right now we can't catch up peicemeal. Anything we send out right now should be considered sunk.

For that reason I would rather plant a spy with Vox than send Subs to spy on what they are doing. Lego has 7 Subs that are faster than our's. We'll almost surely lose any Subs we send out. They can maintain a sentry net which moves forward 2 tiles to check there are no Subs in range to attack their location, then back to where they started. If they do that we can never attack with our own Subs. Hiding Subs in our cities to catch any Lego Subs that stop nearby will help us though. Once we get enough Destroyers together to have an opportunity to sail out, we can use Subs to spot Lego's Subs, and use Destroyers to hit them with.

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I think we'll want to send over 8 MI this turn if the chain survives. If the roads have been cut and we can't take Abilene without too many losses no amount of Settlers will help us get anywhere. If Lego doesn't cut the roads, and/or leaves Abilene sparcely defended (relatively speaking), then the Settlers would be very useful. I doubt either of those will happen though.

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I don't know that we have much use for Tanks right now. If Lego leaves the roads up, we'll get use out of our Tanks next turn, and then they'll surely have figured out the way we used them. If the roads are down, I think we may have to use a ton of MI to just hold one city to base Bombers in and destroy as much of Lego's infrastructure as possible.

We probably have all the Tanks already that will be useful over on Lego.

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So I think we should build Airports first. Then MI, Destroyers, and Bombers.

[Arrian]

Aeson

Bombers to soften, Destroyers to kill. I agree.

I'd go airports followed by bombers in the interior, destroyers in all coastal cities with any decent bit of production.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

Re: Re: Turn 244: 1270 AD

Originally posted by Aeson
The problem with using Airports to move units over will be that Lego can bombard our Airport(s) on their mainland away almost at will. It could still be worth it if we are sending over 8 units each turn the Airport survives, as that is cheaper than the Transport and it's Defender. We would need to rush an Airport each turn to get several units over for 200 shields. Since our Transports to do the same would likely be sunk, along with their escorts, this is still a pretty good deal. If we can pillage any roads outside our culture borders and within 2 tiles of our city then our Airport should be a lot safer.

Somehow I thought airports were 160 shields? I'll check next turn, as it matters when to build what. If they are 200 shields, they can basically be built in all cities. 160 shields makes some cities better for this.

Anyway, 200 shields (or even 160) is not cheap, and not near as cheap as a transport + escort. We've got to rush the Lego airport, where we can build ships in our core cities the normal way. We're not making enough gold to throw it around at will.

I agree Lego can bomb us, and have a very good chance of destroying our airport. However, I don't really mind, as long as we've got the cash. From the battle report, we will find out before playing our turn, which means we can instantly rush a new airport as long as keep a city on Legoland. If we plan for it, we can have a couple of (obsolete) units present, which can seed, or complete a rush. And the main advantage is that airports on Legoland can be rebuilt. Lego bombarding Stormia is disastrous in comparison.

So I think we need to either build several Airports all at once, or only 1-2 for Bomber production. I'd go with as many Airports as we can build in the next couple turns. It will take a long time before we can reasonably put up another chain once Lego finishes off this one. Next turn we could have built an Airport on Lego, and would want as many of the Airports as possible finished by that point.

I agree, either we do it good, or we don't bother. And as our chain is not going to survive unless we focus solely on navy the next couple of turns, we don't really have a choice...

We have to have some navy or Lego will be able to bombard our coastal cities and tiles with their's. The best bet for us is going to be to use Destroyers in cities with Bombers pinging down the targets. Only after we can sink several Lego ships, or build a sizeable navy back up, should we be putting out to sea. Lego just has so much of an advantage right now we can't catch up peicemeal. Anything we send out right now should be considered sunk.

Again agreed, and in a way this point has been made before too. What we currently have is too few, and is to be considered lost. Every surviving ship is an extra. And, seeing the production advantage of Lego, it will be extremely hard for us to break this advantage of theirs.

For that reason I would rather plant a spy with Vox than send Subs to spy on what they are doing. Lego has 7 Subs that are faster than our's. We'll almost surely lose any Subs we send out. They can maintain a sentry net which moves forward 2 tiles to check there are no Subs in range to attack their location, then back to where they started. If they do that we can never attack with our own Subs. Hiding Subs in our cities to catch any Lego Subs that stop nearby will help us though. Once we get enough Destroyers together to have an opportunity to sail out, we can use Subs to spot Lego's Subs, and use Destroyers to hit them with.

I can't agree with you here. Sure, I know the risks our subs will face, but there is very little alternative. We simply need to spot an incoming invasion 1 turn before, or we're toast. Having a spy will warn us on large movements, but can't warn us for chainers, and the production of the current turn. Lego can build 20 marines (at one moment, they built 26 100-shield units in a turn), 20 marines will overrun a citiy's defense unless we identify where they can land, and protect that area more. We could rely on spies solely, but in that case we need to triple our defense of Stormia... we simply can't afford that. We might be able to do at least a bit of scouting with fighters, but I wonder how many we'll need, and whether we need to deploy carriers to give the fighters an extra range of 2 tiles. Once rocketry gives us jets, this changes (IIRC jets have a range of 6, right? we need at least 5, plus the 2 tile line of sight)

Aeson, you are right with the move 2 forward, move 2 back strategy of Lego. However, we can do nearly the same. Have bombers on standby, move 2 forward, 1 back if spotted nothing. Otherwise, bomb away, and move DDs closer. Sure, Lego has a better chance of doing this successfully, but we are not obliged to wait for them, and do nothing.

At any rate, we don't need to put our subs in the open, in range of Lego, but we do need to build a couple to keep a threat going. If we've got subs, Lego has to put a sentry net around their continent if they want to feel safe. That's a big difference with putting a sentry net around us. So, until otherwise asked, I'll keep the sub build in WoC for this turn, and will build at least 1 more over the next 2 turns.

I think we'll want to send over 8 MI this turn if the chain survives. If the roads have been cut and we can't take Abilene without too many losses no amount of Settlers will help us get anywhere. If Lego doesn't cut the roads, and/or leaves Abilene sparcely defended (relatively speaking), then the Settlers would be very useful. I doubt either of those will happen though.

Nope. You're forgetting something here. I fully agree that it's doubtful those settlers can be used this turn, and possibly not even the next one either. But we simply have to bring them: we can't be sure to build any settlers on Legoland in the next couple of turns (other builds take priority, e.g. barracks, harbors and airports). But the main problem is they can't be airlifted onto Legoland. We will lose the sea, we will lose any hopes of getting another transport across, unless we focus on navy. It seems everybody agrees we need to go for airports, which means that for as long as we've got a chain going, we need to bring all settlers we can to Legoland. This turn, there is a slight chance our chain still exists. Next turn, there is no chance anymore, but certainty it is destroyed, without hopes of rebuilding it soon. We have to act right now, if at all possible, even if it means taking a bit of risk by transporting 4 less MI.

I don't know that we have much use for Tanks right now. If Lego leaves the roads up, we'll get use out of our Tanks next turn, and then they'll surely have figured out the way we used them. If the roads are down, I think we may have to use a ton of MI to just hold one city to base Bombers in and destroy as much of Lego's infrastructure as possible.

We probably have all the Tanks already that will be useful over on Lego.

Agreed here. I was already planning on changing all tank builds to bombers (or better airports, if they are 200 shields. At 160 shields, that's a lot trickier but I'll see what I can do)

So I think we should build Airports first. Then MI, Destroyers, and Bombers.

I prefer bombers over DDs, but otherwise I agree, yes. MI is not so easy to prioritize: as they are 110 shields, some cities are better to build these than others. I think it would be economically best if we keep a couple of cities on MI builds for the rest of the war, while using the other cities to build 100 shield units.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'd go airports followed by bombers in the interior, destroyers in all coastal cities with any decent bit of production.

It's not that we've got a lot of interior cities, though... only 3 of them are decent enough to produce a bomber. All the rest are coastal cities

DeepO

[DeepO]

erhm, correction, we've got 4 interior cities being able to build a bomber in decent time. 2 100 spt cities, 1 70 spt city, and 1 55 (or 56, can't remember by heart) spt city. It doesn't matter, I was only joking that we need our coastal cities for something other than ships too

DeepO

[Aeson]

I meant prioritize Airports, then have cities build what they build best out of MI, Destroyers, and Bombers keeping the numbers of each roughly equal.

[DeepO]

Ah... In that case there is no difference in our opinions.

I was thinking, to be really effective, we need over 8 airports on Stormia. We don't have the cash to rush an airport on Lego each turn, but only every 2 turns. However, we could use more than an average of 4 units per turn delivered to Legoland. Build time, upkeep and pollution is going to limit us, though. We might need to settle for a bit less, and work with what we can.

DeepO