Turn 244: 1270 AD

[DeepO]

Some things we could think on before playing this turn:

- do we steal Lego's map? The price is still reasonable, but I wonder if we really need it if we are going to investigate cities anyway

- what units do we want to build? Currently, a mix of MI - tanks (and a sub) is foreseen. I was thinking on 2 things, though: In case we want to damage Lego, we could use a couple of bombers. The 12 bombers of GoW are picking a city each turn, and seriously hamper it. This turn, Legopolis lost half of its production.

- Further, there is something else I was considering... in case we want to send reinforcements to Legoland by sea, we are going to need to build up a new navy again. Our current one is mostly destroyed, and Lego has enough ships left. One of the few things we can expect them to do, is concentrate their navy on us... they know we're not strong in navy anymore, while GoW still has most left. They can't simply attack GoW, but it wouldn't be a big problem to keep us from reinforcing our troops, or at the very least keep us from chaining troops for instant reinforcements.

Other option is that we start to build airports everywhere.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

We certainly either need a new navy or airports if we are to have a supply line. Even if we go the airports route we need some kind of navy. Lego owns Mare Nostrum atm.

[Theseus]

Bombers could first be tasked with helping to destroy Lego's navy.

[DeepO]

Theseus, good point!

So, does anyone object if I change a couple of tank builds to bombers? I'll build another sub in WoC to get some kind of scouting screen up (we need to protect against Vox as well), but other then that focus on bombers first, DDs later.

In the mean time, we build all MI and tank we can, of course. And in case we read in the battle report that our chain has been broken, we change the settler build in Typhoon to a tank build as well...

DeepO

[Jon Shafer]

I love Bombers... I require a ratio of 3:1 Bombers:Tanks in all of my games. The results are quite spactacular.

[DeepO]

3:1? That's no MP game

So far, we simply didn't have the time to build any, we needed to focus on the basics first. And still... we can't build too many now either.

But I was thinking that the war is getting in a new phase, and we should adapt our builds. It is very likely we will have a city on Legoland this turn, or the next. Which makes it necessary to shift from spearhead forces, to consolidation and harrassment forces. That we're not going to build more marines soon is a given, but also that although tanks seem a natural choice for any reinforcements (apart from MI, of course, which we'll also need for our home defense), bombers could proof more useful. Not only can they help in offense, they will also damage Lego on places which we otherwise couldn't reach without exposing ourselves too much. And, they don't suffer from the upcoming problems at sea, as they are easily rebased.

I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that as long as we've got a chain we build 4 tanks (+2 bombers) each turn, but the moment we lose it we should switch to 6 bombers + 2 MI at least. If we could get ~20 bombers over the next 3 turns, we're in serious shape to keep going on Legoland. Otherwise, we risk losing momentum.

One thing which would be brilliant is if we somehow would be able to break Lego's rubber road...

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

Those 3 subs we allowed ourselves turned out to be useful during their short life, and Lego's subs did OK for them too. Not a bad little unit in MP.

[vmxa1]

Ok, I will offer a small dissenting voice to the bombers. If this was C3C I would be all for it. In PTW they miss a lot and are not lethal.

They can do some damage to a ships, but cannot stop it. This is fine vs the AI as it will turn the ship around, Lego will not. They will know we have nothing to sink it.

Not much use on Legoland as we could do better with tanks. Not much good on Stormia as we could use MI to defend and tanks to counter.

Some navy make make sense, but I am not sure. It depends on how much we can get in a few turns to protect the chain.

I would rather have airports to make instant transport of most things and vet fighters later to defend bombers. We only need one on Lego and 4 to 8 on stormia.

We could use the transports to rush the build (recycle not needed). I would start one now on Stormia and make more as soon as the chain is broken beyond repair.

[Krill]

Cutting the rubber rooad would only be useful once. If lego are smart, and so far I see no reason to not follow that assumption, then they will have some workers on that tile already to stop use cutting it. I understand that they only have, what? 2 workers? but that is the place where they should put it. I would still take those 20 bombers though, for all the other reasons, and the bonus that we can cut roads without leaving units open.


I also agree on a couple more subs, and another navy, even if it is only about 3 TR and 3 DES. There is going to be a point when we need to move whatever Marines we have left to fork a couple of cities to take the pressure of the tanks.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Ok, I will offer a small dissenting voice to the bombers. If this was C3C I would be all for it. In PTW they miss a lot and are not lethal.

They can do some damage to a ships, but cannot stop it. This is fine vs the AI as it will turn the ship around, Lego will not. They will know we have nothing to sink it.

Okay, good point. We can't depend on bombers in our seas, if they aren't backed up by a decent navy. But we'll need that anyway, so I'll try to make navy a secundary priority (meaning that from now on, I'll keep on building at least a couple of naval units each turn, either for scouting or for home or chain defense)

Some navy make make sense, but I am not sure. It depends on how much we can get in a few turns to protect the chain.

This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. We are in the minority navally, and have to work from a more difficult position (as we have to defend multiple points, while Lego doesn't have to defend any landing spot once we have landed already). We can try to get on top again, but this will require a lot of ships, at least 3 or 4 turns worth of production. We simply can't spend that much.

However, there might be a solution, in that bombers together with navy might be more cost effective... subs to scout, bombers to soften targets, DDs to clean up. It will depend on the situation, and on how good we can be in predicting what Lego is going to do. But, while we are building bombers, we could also use those for other tasks. In case our naval adventure fails, we still could have something left over to bomb Lego.

The thing I'm most concerned here is the simple equation: in the end, all units will die. While they are still alive, how much damage can a unit do compared to its shield cost? How much of this damage is instantanuously, and how much over longer time? Bombers are slow units, in that they do a little bit of damage over a longer period. As such, one bomber is worth more than one tank, and more than one DD. But they have to survive long enough to become effective... and sometimes you need fast units (e.g. marines, which are the fastest units in Civ). The whole question is if this is the time when we need to change our strategy from a 'fast' unit composotion, to a 'slower' one.

I would rather have airports to make instant transport of most things and vet fighters later to defend bombers. We only need one on Lego and 4 to 8 on stormia.

Agreed, in principal. If I would be facing AI, there wouldn't be a chance I would have left for an invasion unless I would've got more airports than I could produce units. However, there is one major problem here: we simply didn't had the choice so far. We couldn't waste the shields on airports.... and frankly, we still can't. As long as we've got a chain, transports will be a lot more cost effective.

But this might chance... fast. In case the chain didn't survive, we have to make a decision, and make one fast. Are we going to depend on transports or airports in the future for our reinforcements? Now that the main part of our navy is destroyed (and the rest of it did exactly what it was built for, namely to bring the bulk of our forces to Legoland), the cost is going to be the same. Building 8 airports on Stormia, and rush 1 on Legoland (and have another one on stand by, as they will be targeted by Lego), is about the same cost as building a decent navy, which can safely bring reinforcements to Legoland.

It might be a matter of taste, perhaps, but everyone will have its own views... It's a fresh start, so this is an important decision to make as a team. I'm sligthly in favour of airports myself, but the problem is that we need 2 turns of our production to set it up, while transports are still working at minimal cost. So, I wouldn't mind a gradual change, while as long as possible we're trying to keep a naval path open.

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Krill
Cutting the rubber rooad would only be useful once. If lego are smart, and so far I see no reason to not follow that assumption, then they will have some workers on that tile already to stop use cutting it. I understand that they only have, what? 2 workers? but that is the place where they should put it. I would still take those 20 bombers though, for all the other reasons, and the bonus that we can cut roads without leaving units open.

Yes and no. Let's say we've got 20 bombers... and Lego knows it's rubber source is under attack. Sure, they can put workers on guard, and they should have (we currently have workers on both iron and oil, 2 resources bombers could cut). However, will it protect the whole path to the resource? In the worst case scenario, only 8 tiles connect the resource to the rest of the road network... 20 bombers have a decent chance of cutting that. Add a couple of conq's, explorers, maybe a closeby city which we could capture, and you get to to a possible situation where 20 bombers could make Lego be without rubber for 2 turns. That alone, even if Vondrack keeps on playing as good as he has been doing, will be a major attraction for building bombers. That opportunity is like winning the jackpot, after buying a year's wages on lottery tickets (bombers do not come cheap either )

I also agree on a couple more subs, and another navy, even if it is only about 3 TR and 3 DES. There is going to be a point when we need to move whatever Marines we have left to fork a couple of cities to take the pressure of the tanks.

Yes, on top of the transport capability, it would be nice to keep a marine threat as well. However, I fear that the way the situation is now, we won't win that battle. At this point, I consider all DDs as cannon fodder, taking a BB with it if possible, while all transports are to be considered scrap metal for rushing. Any ship we can safe (and I do mean any) would be a bonus... by the time we can come out of this situation, and have a credible navy both for our chain, and for threatening Lego, it will be too late, I'm afraid. But maybe we'll get lucky, you never know

DeepO

[vmxa1]

My concern is that if we cannot get a navy out in this turn or the next, I doubt it is worth having.

By then we will be doing big damage to Lego or be in deep doodo. So that is what makes it a hard call.

[DeepO]

Would it be an idea to focus on subs for all offensive tasks, and only have some DDs for protection? With a combined bomber-subs approach, we might be able to have a very credible threat, with the minimal of invested shields. We could build that in a couple of turns (next turn is very hard, unless Lego destroys our chain this turn and we can't use extra land units anyway).

But airports certainly will be needed in the future, it seems.

DeepO

[vmxa1]

My perspective is that subs are useless at this point. They are too slow to get into position. By the time we get some and they get some place useful we will have either made it or failed.

If I am Lego I do not build any more subs as they cannot help them all that much. I would rather have more tanks, were I them.

Subs are good, if you know where they need to be and they are protected. They do not normally win battles against any capital ships.

[DeepO]

Lego still needs subs, in case we build a few. Every transport which is chained, is another 8 tanks on Legoland... that is easily worth the cost of 1 tank. If we stop building subs, I agree that they don't needs any either. They've got 7(?) present for scouting, and that should be enough to cover most of the sea.

We, OTOH, desperately need a couple of subs. Right now we have the initiative on Legoland, and therefore are reasonably safe at home. However, this can change quickly. Lego has 15 transports, the moment they can afford it, we can face an invasion ourselves. We have no way of defending to that kind of force, unless we've got at least a 1-turn warning... for which we need subs.

And don't forget Vox could get some ideas as well.

DeepO