GoW - Diplomacy Comments #3

[Cort Haus]

Time for a new one of these, the other has hit 500 posts. It might be worth opening a new GoW Diplo thread too. The current one is very heavy.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by DeepO
So, before we do any major, critical action, I would like to put a broad plan together, and send it to GoW. In return, I would like to ask that they analyze the Lego battle report, and give us some options on how they can proceed.
DeepO

Message sent to MZ on this.

[DeepO]

okay, so MZ it thinking along the same lines as us.

CH, I would send him a message that the post-war situation is also on our minds, a lot even. I would make the following points:

- division of territory (obviously we're interested in rubber, but the dyes need to be discussed as well)
- other countries: would GoW strongly oppose a RP move, or could something be discussed?
- Vox: their free tech make them survivable, plus they might be another team to guard against possible ND aggression. We need urgent talks, though!
- moving troops back to home turf: we want that too. Do we need any kind of agreement on what we both keep on Legoland once this war finishes?
- war coordination itself: nothing is certain right now, we need to see what Lego does first. We can't discuss much before we get the save, or at least the battle report from Lego.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

draft message to GoW

On the territory - of primary interest to GS is the rubber, but the Dyes are obviously a key site for both of us. One idea we are knocking around is for a minor civ to be the Stewards of the Dyes.

Would GoW be strongly opposed to a modest claim by RP for some spoils? They have committed themselves to this war, even if it may be nearly over before they can arrive. RP's economic contribution has also been valuable to our alliance's technological edge over Lego.

Vox's free tech will obviously come into play. Beyond that is certainly something we need to consider and discuss.

We too would like to get our troops home soon. Once we get Lego's battle report we can consider the best next moves. Do we need any kind of agreement on what troops we both keep on Legoland once this war finishes?

Also, perhaps we should consider a mutual protection arrangement in case ND tries something silly.

[DeepO]

I like it, CH

DeepO

[DeepO]

Maybe we should include some hint at future alliances, though... give them the idea that in case ND tries something, we would best help each other.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

amended and sent

[DeepO]

CH, our report never got sent to GoW, right? It would explain their uncertainty on the transports.

Their idea is a good start, so let's see a map and we can discuss more. However I don't agree with the chokepoint going to Vox, for the reasons already explained (we can't use it offensively, but defensively it's of major importance for us. For GoW it's not so much defensively, but offensively important)

Other nations settling:
RP should be a full partner, but I would be happy to settle them on 'our' side. No problem.
ND is something else. They didn't help us, we helped them in tech. Their only help was in not allying with Lego (not a small point, of course) If they get ground from GoW, we're the ones threatened, not GoW... I don't like that situation.

DeepO

[asleepathewheel]

That's unsettling that ND is pushing GoW for land on lego...

they are setting us up. Not that there is much we can do about it. ND gets a city on legoland, then they have the ability to strike us both at home and on legoland far more easily than otherwise.

we are going to need some creative defensive positions on legoland, which will be the fun part....

[Arrian]

ND getting land on Lego is capital "B" Bull****. I think we must strongly oppose it.

Throw their "spearhead" argument back at them. They were totally against even a small GS presence on Bob, for security reasons. Fine. We are totally against even a small ND presence on Lego, for security reasons.

That's how I see it, anyway.

-Arrian

[DeepO]

I think I just found a way of closing in on GoW.
follow the following, please

1. with GoW's territory on Lego, and Bob, The combination of GoW and ND has enough land for domination victory, right? Otherwise it will be very close

2. If our territory, or Vox' territory would be the problem, it would be a small problem to conquer either of our two nations, and get the land. Our interests are primarily on Stormia, and they know it. GS-Legoland is easy prey

3. So, in case GoW and ND would go for a joint victory, they already won, and we should better celebrate the end of the game. Continuing beyond this point is only useful in case GoW plans on attacking ND in the future, and not allying with them. If they want to ally, let them do it right now, and proclaim a joint victory. We can't help it anyway.

4. So... why not use this as a way of negotiating with GoW? If they want to ally with us, we would welcome it, and we can start discussing the degree. We're not planning on war, but could be pursuaded. If they don't want to ally with us, they need to ally with ND, as they can't risk ND and GS together. But, if they ally with ND, they are already won, and don't need to play any longer.

So, they only have one choice: work with us, more than with ND.

This has more impact... and if we play it well diplomatically might lead to a big advantage in position. It is however necessary that we are seen as the third power, much smaller than both of them and thus no viable candidate to win by domination. Production, commerce and land wise, that certainly is true, only our military is a bit of a problem.

Basically it means, that either the game has already finished in case ND and GoW band together, or we get to decide who will be the other finalist. Tell GoW we want them, and not ND... and they can choose whether to end the game right now, or keep at it for a while longer.
(In reality, it is more complex as that, as we would need to try to get 3 parties opposed to each other for maximum chance of success)

DeepO

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Arrian
ND getting land on Lego is capital "B" Bull****. I think we must strongly oppose it.

We can't... really. MZ was tricky enough to mention that everyone is free to do with his land what he wants too. And he is correct, we can't interfere when they want to give away land, neither can they interfere with us. RP's claims for land are about the same as ND's, especially when looked at from GoW's side.

Throw their "spearhead" argument back at them. They were totally against even a small GS presence on Bob, for security reasons. Fine. We are totally against even a small ND presence on Lego, for security reasons.

That's how I see it, anyway.

-Arrian

We can't keep ND from getting a spearhead when GoW wants them to. All they need is receiving a city from GoW at the precise turn their transports are ready to disembark in the city, and they've got a spearhead. Spearheads are only to be avoided when there are no allies on the same continent, otherwise it doesn't matter (and certainly not when they can get from one of their harbours to one of Lego's harbours in 1 turn, so we can't even spot them without spies)

I think we should remind GoW that giving ND a spearhead is primarily their risk, and not ours. RP is bound to us by treaty, they can't attack GoW without our approval, nor can they attack us... they would be annihilated. ND OTOH is not GoW's slave, so giving a spearhead to ND is only a sign of how much GoW trusts them, and is no direct threat to us (at least not more than the GoW threat alone)

DeepO

[vmxa1]

I don't see anyway to oppose the idea that MZ is floating. He is correct that all can give away any amount of the new land on lego to anyone they want.


Nothing can be done, other that going to war and that is not feisible. Vox getting the choke points should not be a huge issue for us. We do not fear an attack on Lego from them do we ?

Basically the land on Lego cannot be defended anyway (from ND/GoW). All we can do is to get some dyes and rubber and hope for some future resources to show up.

As was mentioned, we could not defeat a combined Bobian attack and must either ally with GoW or try to prolong the game until we can launch or vote.

The vote will require RP and Vox to be with us and I am not sure how we can gain thiers.

Eventually we will find Lego and eliminate them. They are a potential voter that would never vote for us.

[Aeson]

I would prefer ND on Lego. It may divert some forces of their's to Lego instead of Stormia if war breaks out between us.

If GoW/ND are going to hit us, GoW could just give ND a coastal city anyways. Might as well have ND on the continent and required to defend it from us to have a cost involved for them.

The Rubber and a Harbor (and a line between them) are the only things on Lego we need to hold onto. If we can defend them from GoW we can defend them from ND.

[DeepO]

are harbors necessary? an airport does the job just as well... one less city to defend.

the chokepoint would be nice to have, but no problem to miss. It's just that we never told MZ we would be interested in it for defensive reasons and obviously he is not offering it himself. It might be no problem from their side either. I don't see any reason for us to give territory to Vox, though.

DeepO