GoW - Diplomacy Comments #3

[Cort Haus]

Good points about the spearhead. I think we should say to GoW that we don't think ND has done very much to deserve it, but it's up to GoW to allocate their land.

ND basically milked the alliance for cheap tech, allowing it to build and develop its huge empire while GoW-GS did all the hard work of researching at full cost, building scores of units and destroying the leading Civ. Now ND expects a share of the spoils as if on a footing with RP, who contributed maybe 5000g to the war, built as many units as it could and got a bunch of them killed.

We won't know what else apart from Dyes and Rubber we want on Lego until Fission and Rocketry show up the last two resources.

I agree that we should also ask GoW who's side they want to be on now. If ND, let's call it a day.

[Cort Haus]

Sorry for not sending that report to GoW over Christmas, DeepO. I was working 12hrs/day from the 23rd to the 26th and was not really on the case. Shall I send it now?

[DeepO]

Don't worry about that report, I wrote it on New Year's Eve, and didn't send it myself either (forgot). But perhaps it's best to send it anyway yes.

I agree that RP should deserve better than ND, but let's not get involved in this. We can say what we think of it, but in no way interfere, it's GoW's choice.

DeepO

[DeepO]

I've been thinking on how the division has to be done. Obviously, we need territory for future resources, but we'll have to see what kind of terrain we get too.

What is important on Legoland, apart from resources, and tiles if you want to go for domination: Food. It won't produce commerce or production anyway, so only food really counts. Every irr grass we can use, is one tax man, or 1 gpt.

I don't know how exactly the division is that GoW is proposing, but I strongly suggest that we demand to get the same, or more food tiles. So we just count every bonus resource, and every grass, plain, and fp tile, and use that to calculate the real gain.

I don't think we should tell them now, if by coincidence we get more food, and GoW only counts tiles, we keep shut, of course. Otherwise, we ask for proper compensation (i.e. more land)

When settling RP, we better make sure they get normal land, and we get the food tiles ourselves. Also, we need loads of cities, possibly even Borging it. There might be some 150 gpt to be made from Legoland.

DeepO

[Aeson]

You're right about the Airport.

I would give the chokepoint to Vox if it helps us swing a deal to get their free tech.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Aeson
I would give the chokepoint to Vox if it helps us swing a deal to get their free tech.

Exactly... which is why we can't let GoW broker the deal for the chokepoint with Vox. Let it fall in our hands, and we can use it in negotiations with Vox if we want to.

DeepO

[Cort Haus]

So things to say to GoW:

1. If they and GoW wanted to declare a joint domination victory they could do so now. However much some people might not like the idea of a joint victory, GoW-ND could ultimately eliminate all teams but themselves from here and end the game.

2. Do GoW have a map of the intended division?

3. If they wish to offer ND cities on Lego in GoW's half, that is their choice.

4. Outstanding balance on Computers - 1070g

anything else?

[Cort Haus]

Should we ask how many units were in Spinebreaker?

[DeepO]

I wouldn't say much about spinebreaker, or only a small remark like "we noticed Spinebreaker wasn't empty, so you found magical ways of getting your troops home "
Better leave it out altogether, if we consider it a problem, I suggest we go via Trip before saying anything to GoW.

5. Vox territory: we prefer not to give free territory to Vox. I'm not certain if we want to mention we want a deal with Vox (although we really should be working on that soon, otherwise we're going to miss opportunities). If they want to give Vox territory, it's their choice, and their territory. If we want to give Vox territory, it's our choice and our land. Joint acts of good will never work.

6. ND on Legoland: I would explain to him we don't mind, as it is their risk, not ours. Or not explain it, but mention they can do as they wish, we don't feel threatened by ND presence on Legoland anyway. It is a big gift, for a nation who has won most from their neutrality instead of their involvement in the Lego war. But seeing as it is primarily GoW's safety which is at risk, they are certainly free to give it to ND.
As Aeson said: it is bound to draw a couple of defenders from ND, which in the end can only be good for us.

7. Last, I would include a little bit on future plans. Just a question, and if we can continue to have a good relation as we've shown the past half year or so.

DeepO

[Aeson]

I'm a little concerned with #1.

Right now I don't think they are allied with ND for a win. If we sound like we are accusing GoW of already working towards a joint victory with ND it could be a very insulting insinuation from their perspective.

[vmxa1]

Not to mention we have nothing to gain from it. It could come to pass that MZ will want to have the fun of sacking ND and if he does, he will want us onboard.

[Cort Haus]

Aeson has a point - we should tread carefully in that respect. If they are to ally with ND against us it would be good to know, but let's just start with the positive approach ...

Here's a draft :

The 50-50 split sounds a good starting point to us - do you have a map of the intended division? If GoW wishes to offer ND cities on Lego in GoW's half, that is your choice. It is a big gift, for a nation who has won most from their neutrality instead of their involvement in the Lego war. We would prefer for Vox not to get allocated any territory before the split. Afterwards, it would be up to the owners.

Beyond Lego, GS are looking forward to continuing the good relations established between our teams over the last several months into the future. We hope GoW feels the same.

(btw/fyi - I understand the outstanding balance on Computers to be 1070g.)

[DeepO]

fine by me...

DeepO

[Aeson]

- Vox gets the Isthmus and the Hammer

Perhaps we should just agree to this or bring GoW into the free tech negotiations (if they ever happen) with Vox too.

- The rest of the continent is split at the middle with the Demarcation Line being exactly half the number of tiles on each SW-NE row. In case of rows with an odd number of tiles, the Demarcation Line will be the entire middle tile so as to give each side the same sized territory.

This is fine. I don't think a few food here or there will make any difference.

- No cities may be built touching the Demarcation Line, they must be built at least 1 tile away so that the initial cultural boundary fits within each side's territory.
- An exception will be made for GS's city on the dyes. We have no objection to allowing this city even if it rests on "our side".

I think we should trade some tiles so that our Rubber source gets a city placed on it. This is mainly why I wouldn't disagree with the Vox issue, because this is much more important IMO.

- Each side can decide what to do with their half and who to allow to colonize.

Agree.

Given that ND helped us with techs for the war and they also want a share I have no objections in theory however perhaps we should insist that only GS and GoW are allowed to have anything more than defensive forces in Lego. I for one don't mind ND colonizing part of Legoland... I sure as hell don't want them militarizing it.

The problem here is what constitues "defensive" (Artillery+MI are pretty strong offensive units when massed) and that there is no economical way to determine if it is being upheld.

[vmxa1]

I have no problem with your responses. I would just tell GoW that well will split it as they want with the exception of the rubber city and we do need to have at least one Dye.

They can give ND as much land as they wish, we will give them nothing. They gave us some deals, but they got at least as good as they gave.

When push comes to shove, I don't object to some tiles cut out of the pie, but if they do it for ND, then they should for RP. RP gave cold cash and lost troops. They did what they could and were proactive.

It is just easier for both parties to give land from their pile, than to negotiate it 3 ways. The food is not so great an issue that we need to spend weeks talking about it.