Grand Alliance to Undermine Lego (GAUL)

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Theseus
Hi guys, sorry, RL snagged my sorry *ss again. Hopefully over the weekend I can get caught up on all things Civ3 (and yes, I have completed AU 501! ).

Great to see you, Theseus

* NDGoW have invited us to there little party. GOOD (I think it's real, btw). We need ongoing discord in the world... on that note, btw, the bit about spying and Vondrack freaking out in the public is brilliant, and more of the same should be encouraged.

Like NYE, I have a lot of respect for Vondrack, but that was funny. Especially Arn's 72pt headline

* I'm OK with us participating militarily, especially as considered using primarily existing upgraded units. I haven't seen, however, a suggestion that RP's participation could count towards ours... in other words, whereas MZ suggested 30 Cavs from GS, how about instead 20 GS Cavs and 15-20 RP Conquistadors? I concur, btw, with CH that this will give us the highest chances of grabbing the GWs that we are targeting.

The conq's won't be here in time - we will hopefully have Electronics by the time RP complete Navigation. Togas was keen on the idea of involvement to make diplomatic inroads with NDGoW, though Arnelos has been scheming up a backstab plan (see log).

* I don;t care what happens to Lego... damaged or destroyed, the key is to turn Legoland into a war-torn hell, where ND and GoW are compelled to commit serious forces to protect whatever they want to keep from all, including each other. I suggest that we not plan on retaining any territory there at all, other than as military bases.

My initial thoughs were that a destroyed Lego would be owned by GoW/ND who could then declare a joint domination victory to end the game if they wanted. The other teams could object, but it would be checkmate if GoWND wanted it - just a matter of time before the others are eliminated.

However, the small black shape called "GoW's half of Bob" suggests otherwise. The miserable prize of about 30 tiles and one iron that GoW won for their efforts in the Great Bobian War says that ND want to win the game for themselves. Even LEGO have more of ND's luxuries than GoW. Check the chat when I chucked that one in : " * MZ glares at Zayxus"

Unless GAUL dragged on till Marines, ND and GoW would have to fight each other after Lego, and as T says, their priority for troop strengths must be Bob, not Lego. If Lego had been destroyed, there'd be a power vacuum for Vox, RP, and GS to cash in on. I'm thinking resources from the GS pov - obviously not production, but what an opportunity for Vox and RP!

As things stand we have an excellent chance of missing any number of resources from Coal, Rubber, Oil, Aluminium, and Uranium. Hopefully the distrib will not be as extreme as AU501, but we will probably be short of something. Legoland may contain these, including the one which we get to see in 10 turns.

If Lego is turned into a war-torn hell, whoever is left on it will not be able to defend its resources as well as its current occupant.

* Also included in considering a space race is the potential relocation of RP (to where?), and, as I think I saw suggested, the dismantlement of certain of our core cities to allow for monster metros.

The worker pumps could be disbanded, and maybe some others, but where possible I'd favour reducing pop in coastal cities so they only use sea tiles, leaving all land tiles to the metros.

The closeness of Arashi and Tempest - two of our highest production cities could be a problem. If Arashi built the ToE (major, major analysys of this on the Smiths thread), it woudn't matter losing that wonder once we'd got the techs, and we could build the FP in Eliopolis if/when RP move to Lego or Bob.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Theseus
Hey sleepy.

I've been thinking of something else too, btw... isn't GAUL inevitable in a way, as long as we participate in some fashion?

Does that preclude us from somehow telegraphing to Lego what is about to happen?

Don;t start yelling at me everyone!

I just mean that, heck, don;t we won't Legoland to be the biggest slog possible for NDGoW?

Deceit and trickery, indeed.

As the Civ 2 advisors would say, I disagree

Lego ought to have at least their east coast covered. If we tip them off, the chance of a NDGoW landing ought to be completely nil. That's even before my lack of enthusiasm for backstabbing.

On the first point, this brings us to Arrian's position. He is arguing firmly that we are not militarily needed in the assault, that they have enough power to damage Lego on their own, and that our full participation would only assist their gains and their power. We could participate by viewing cities for troop levels and exposing the map.

He's right in sofar as we are not needed to damage Lego, unless they dare not throw all their units at Lego because they fear each other. I quipped in the chat that 30 units each from NDGOW would leave 20 units each to hit us. Not that they can hit us, but they can hit each other. They also fear us, and knowing that we need Lego damaged too can say that they probably won't go ahead without us, knowing that we wouldn't want this chance missed to damage Lego.

If we call their bluff and they go ahead then : Their war lasts longer, we are spared the hit to our economy, get our wonders and develop industrial power. We'll have no chance of Legonian resources.

If they don't go ahead, they'll have to either hit each other, or sit and wait for Marines and Tanks with expensive standing armies and the likes of Hot Enamel and Ghengis suffering acute peace-weariness and making like uncomfortable at home. This leaves Lego in the clear to complete a sea-wall, GA to the ToE and Hoover and generally go super-Nova.

[asleepathewheel]

I agree with CH and vmxa1.

its in our best interests that lego get damaged severely. if we told them something was afoot, chances are they could stop it entirely by blocking the coasts, worst situation for us. I agree that once no one will trade a tech with them or the mood in chat changes (vondrack actually showed up in the main GoW chatroom while we were talking the other day) they will know something is up. I imagine GoW is trying to work the attack nd instead angle with them.

[vmxa1]

It seems the big questions is how much would it take to get some in roads to Lego. I am dubious that 60 units from Bob would be enough to get the job done at this point.

Bobians could muster more, but at what cost? They must have some concerns about each other. At least enough to not leave their land unprotected. They also have to worry that Lego will opt for a counter invasion to do all the damage they can.

So for all those reason, they will not send all they have and want us to pony up. This does many things for them. It eliminates any chance we could hit them during that phase. Yes we know we can't, but do they? It makes us less able to keep rushing ahead in production and research as we will have to spend resources to fight and to grab land.

I would think Lego is unbreachable after rails are up. They will just have too much to make it worth while.

If Lego gets most of the wonders at this juncture they win, if we get some, it will not preclude someone else from winning. This means the Bobians can afford to have us beat them to them, but not Lego.

Any war between Bobians would be the end of either of them winning, unless it came after Lego was crippled.

[vmxa1]

I just read the RP post. That is a very dangerous gamble. If it were to fail, we would be out of the game for good. No more deals anywhere.

I doubt it has any chance. We do not have the troops to assault Bob.

We will be getting the SP and MT to upgrade to join the fray anyway.

We are hoping that GoW/ND will take a significant pounding during the war on Lego.

Its only appeal is that is solves the problem of how to reduce all three of the top teams. That is, if it worked. I do not think we need a go for broke shot right now. We have some decent prospects.

[asleepathewheel]

i agree. we don't have the manpower to do anything like cripple the 2 bobs. and rp has much much less than we do. that gambit would only succeed in costing us any chance at anything. I like the fantasy, but we can't do it right now, nor probably ever. need to join one side or another, can't do both simultaneously.

[Theseus]

RP is naive.

More importantly, we need to be thinking how to take out ND's production power after Lego is dismantled. Conquistadors might then be extremely useful pillagers.

/me senses an Evil Plan coming on.

[vmxa1]

Opportunistic, is what we have to be. I like the idea of maybe pillagers. We just have to see what unfolds.

At lest we are looking to have some excitement and fun. Better than what was going on, when I first looked in.
Ch really did a great job and sleepy was bucking up the morale.
I know there have been others, but those two come to mind first.

[notyoueither]

the likes of Hot Enamel and Ghengis suffering acute peace-weariness

[asleepathewheel]

Query:

1. If Lego builds Magellan's this turn and thus enters their GA, does that change our joint war plans?

2. I looked at the map and I'm curious as to how GoW/ND will cross without giving lego a 1 turn's heads up (minimum), for that matter, it applies to us as well.

3. If they do have a one turn's heads up, unless there is to be some deception involving quite a few galleons headed to different land zones, lego will be able to shield their coast line. What I mean is, the galleons can only reach what 4 squares or so of coastline, easily held by knights on roads.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Query:

1. If Lego builds Magellan's this turn and thus enters their GA, does that change our joint war plans?

2. I looked at the map and I'm curious as to how GoW/ND will cross without giving lego a 1 turn's heads up (minimum), for that matter, it applies to us as well.

3. If they do have a one turn's heads up, unless there is to be some deception involving quite a few galleons headed to different land zones, lego will be able to shield their coast line. What I mean is, the galleons can only reach what 4 squares or so of coastline, easily held by knights on roads.

1-no it will just hurt GoW and ND more and allow us to burn up their GA. They (Lego) will probably have to go to mobilization.

2/3 are the problem. I have not seen any proposals form the Bobians about how they plan to pull this off.

I was going to add a screen of the coast, but I forot the deal within the private forum.

[vmxa1]

Anyway it would seem that Lego will have some notice and see everyone coming as the ships gets close.

A number of fleets will have to be put together and come from several directions to force them to split up, unless we can find hole that can't be plug in time.

Coming through Panama Vox to Invoice would be nice, especially if Vox was to join in.

Don't forget that we lost the Lighthouse with Magnetism.

It is for sure that some serious plans need to be formed and real soon if this is to fly.

[Cort Haus]

First off, we couldn't get there sooner than 15 turns. It would take us over 10 turns to get all our existing 5 galleys into position, then there would have to be more galleys plus frigate/ironclad cover. The latter would be better, but depends on coal. The former would need SP from Bob sooner than if we just needed Muskets/Cav.

The Bobians would have to get a foothold in early, so we could get an easier landing. Or ... if they are dancing around getting blocked (huh) by Lego and we show up on the west, we might get to land and take strength from the east.

I guess the first thing we need is some timing ideas from GoW.

[Cort Haus]

The other thing is exploration. I had to make a decision on the northern galleys last turn and I sent two north, in line with the previous consensus on exploration.

Two other galleys are already heading south, en-route to explore the SE ocean, in search of 'Australia'.

We may/will probably have to scrap exploration plans to scrape a fleet together.

We also need RP to add to their own wall to free-up our own units. They have been asked about this - we have a dozen spare units at the moment.

I think we should look to pitch a modest bid of 12 Cav + 8 Muskets - enough to open a second front without hitting our building plans too hard. This will reduce naval outlay to units with teeth - hopefully Ironclads prebuilt during steam, with builds timed to allow frigate-fallback if we have no coal.

[vmxa1]

Now that is a dose of reality. I suspect that GoW has no idea of our true conditon and ability to engage. Of course we can't afford to tip them to it just yet.

That is why they need toshare any plan they have in some detail, in order for us to know if it is possible and if we can contribute.